Rotation

[EddieC]

Looking at some of the posts on here it does appear that the lack of footie has made some people forget about Rafa's love of rotation.

I've seen posts asking what will happen to Crouch as Torres & Kuyt will play together every game, and posts asking how we will accommodate all our central midfielders. The answer is exactly the same way we did last season, rotation. Rafa likes to rotate his players, and love it or hate it, he isn't about to change his mind.

So what are everyones thoughts on rotation? My personal opinion is it always gets the blame but never the credit. When we go on a losing streak it's rotations fault, and when we go on a winning streak it's got nothing to do with rotation. All in all I think rotation is a good idea, and probably the reason we've reached a major final every season since Rafa arrived. The problem for me has been intergrating new players into the side. Last season, we had Kuyt, Bellamy, Gonzales, Pennant & Aurelio, and with the exception of Aurelio all were needed in the first team pretty much immediately. The season before we had Crouch, Reina, Sissoko & Zenden, with Cisse being like a new signing having missed the whole of the previous season. A lot of these signings were made late in the window, and didn't have much time to settle in before being put into action. Rafa has made it clear that we needed to get our signings in early to give them time to intergrate & on the whole we have this summer, but personally I'd say if a player hasn't settled then don't play them until they have. Rafa has had to play about with his new signings to see what works, and as he hasn't had enough time in training he's had to do it during games. This has led to accusations of over-rotation, when in fact it's just Rafa trying to work out his new guys. In both of the last two seasons we've noticed the rotating decrease after the first month or so, some will say 'Oh Rafa's realised rotation doesn't work' but if that was the case why does he do it all again the next season? My opinion is that he doesn't want to have to rotate so much at the start of the season but he has to for the reasons outlined above. I do think Rafa should've taken a different approach, as I said it shouldn't be such a problem this season, but supposing all our players were signed in the week before our first game, regardless of what talent we had signed I would actually go with a lineup along the lines of:

                  Reina
    Finnan Carra Agger Riise
Pennant Gerrard Masch Kewell
              Crouch Kuyt

A settled lineup who all know each other just to get a few results under our belt before we start tinkering, giving the new boys a chance to settle in first.

Beyond the start of the season can anyone really say there's been that much of a problem with rotation? We've continued rotating throughout the season every time, and have gone on good winning streaks. The only time it gets a mention then is when reminiscing on our poor start, but no-one gives it any credit for the good results. My opinion is that we wouldn't neccessarily be getting those results if it wasn't for rotation & the extra rest it gives our players. Every season our squad seems to be one of the fittest around towards the end of the season, and this is reflected in our success in cup competitions. If you compile a league table based purely on results in the second half of the season Liverpool have won it for the last two seasons, again I would put this down to rotation. So the problem isn't our run in, it's our start to the season, and I explained the reasons why I believe this has been a problem.

This season with key signings having a proper pre-season with us I think we stand a great chance of winning the league given the right luck. I honestly believe as well that we won't hear anyone complaining about rotation, as it's only ever a scapegoat problem when we're losing.

[Jabba]

Personally though I don't think Rafa rotated heavily at Valencia - feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I think Rafa has rotated the Liverpool side so much because we have a greater number of trophies - a more compacted season (with no winter break) and the plain fact that we haven't had the technical ability that Valencia had and have had to rely on fitness at times.  I don't think it is any coincidence whatsoever that we have reached three major cup finals in each of his seasons in charge which shows that even with his tinkering - our sides remain fit right up to the end of the season.

The only big mistake (another feature of Rafa's reign) is we have had woeful starts to the seasons.

I expect much less rotation in the year ahead.  I think we will see the emergence of 7 or 8 regulars for Premiership games. 

I actually hate the word 'rotation'.  If a manager changes one or two players it is hardly rotating the team.  He gets paid a lot of money to 'manage' the LFC squad and the buck stops with him.  If he wants to rest or drop players then he can and he will be judged at the end of the season.

[srslfc]

Personally I feel that rotation of the squad is essential if we want to be competing on all fronts next season. We all know that Rafa likes to change players and formations depending on who we are playing and if there is a lot of fixture congestion. As Eddie has pointed out a lot of people were critisising Rafa early on last season for rotating the players but when it got to near the end of the season they had suddenly changed their minds and praised him for keeping the players fresh which helped our progress in the European cup and saw our league form improve towards the end.

The players which we have signed this summer will allow Rafa to use a variety of formations next season and hopefully give us more flexibility(particularly in attack). We know that Rafa likes to analyse the opponent and use a formation and players which he feels is best to beat that team. In my opinion this is a mark of an excellent manager as it shows he is identifying the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents and picking the best team for the job. But as I said before this is seen as tactical genius when it works or just plain old 'rotation' when it doesn't. We can't have it both ways.

I also agree with Jabba that the team at the start of the season should be a settled one which will hopefully give us a start in the league which we haven't had in a while. I also expect Rafa to have maybe 6-7 regular starters for the opening month or so in the league but with more changes in the cup competions. Although we sholud still expect changes in the team for league games as I said before I think this is Rafa's way and he feels there are different players/formations for different games.

Good topic Eddie as it hasn't really been discussed this summer but it is one reason why I haven't posted in the team for next season thread as I feel we will not have one 'team' for next season but maybe 2-3 formations, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 3-5-2, and a back bone of 5-6 regulars with the rest of the squad rotating depending on the fixture.

[king kenny]

I think that the rotation should be started 2 months into the season!

[Venom-C]

It was always in my mind that squad rotation wins premierships and team chemistry wins cups, but after last season, that theory was knocked on its arse.

[EddieC]

I find it amazing that such a contentious issue like rotation only gets 4 replies when a topic is started on it.

Every fan I have ever spoken to has an opinion on rotation, so lets hear yours. What do you think the pros & cons are, and do you think the pros justify the cons?

Or maybe you just want to stick to posting who our first goalscorer will be, or what our lineup will be next season, posts that don't require any real thought

[ONTHEWING]

As a player I'm not a great fan of rotation, mainly because I ALWAYS want to play - I hate having to watch my teams play without me (something I've had to do for the last 12 months due to injury  :'( ) and I guess it's the same for the professional lads?

Given the amount of games and the pressure playing in such a quality league will put on players I can understand why Rafa likes to rotate. It keeps players fresh but hopefully they'll all be desperate to play and therefore putting in that extra special performance from all the energy and enthusiasm they build up when they're not playing............ .....  I guess it depends on the temperament of the player and the communication from the manager as to how well it works. But, Rafa is a top class manager who clearly knows the psychology of dealing with the major talent he has at Liverpool.  Once the players get used to it I guess they can adapt quickly.

[RedPuppy]

I find it amazing that such a contentious issue like rotation only gets 4 replies when a topic is started on it.

Personally I am not a great fan of rotation, if it ain't broken, leave it alone.

 I remember a season back in the early eighties we we only used something like 14 players for the whole 42 games! Can't see that happening again. But saying that a few weeks ago I watch an ITV 4 programme on us winning the 5 Euro cups, (I think they were hoping we'd make it 6!) and the first 4 games, were to be honest so slow, a lot more space, and the back pass rule! so to kill my own argument a lot has changed, the game is alot faster etc etc... and no George Best would not be a superstar if he had played now the game is totally different. But I digress, Rotation, I don't like it, but I feel it may be needed now due the higher tempo of todays game, I agree with King Kenny, and maybe start it after 2 months, as long everything is OK.
Is rotation another form of resting players?  Should players need resting, probally yes, as the "Closed" season seems to be only 2-3 weeks and back training and playing on the other side of the world, sound great but jet lag from Oz takes me weeks to get over.

So I hope this is OK Eddie, and know I don't care who scores first, gotto wifes on way home

I do agree, some of the post are similar to the old 606, I'd put it down to the school hols, but they ain't broken up yet.

[LFC Gary]

I don't think rotation is a problem, but over-rotation is. A few changes here & there to keep everyone fresh isn't a problem, but the wholesale changes that Rafa likes to make sometimes is taking it too far. The only time we should see changes on that scale is for Carling Cup matches.

[Njadula]

The only problem with rotation is rotation for the sake of rotation. I felt Rafa overdid it last season. How do you explain how a player wins a man of the match award in one game but is not good enough to start the next one. Players should be rotated on merit and not because his turn for the bench is due. Crouch really suffered a lot because of this and I still feel he was not given a chance to play to his full potential last season. A player gets goals for you whenever you bring him on but he is not good enough to start???

I hope Rafa is man enough to have learned from his mistakes and will adopt his favoured rotation policy based on merit. The team needs to gain some sort of stability, a player's form needs to be nurtured until it runs its course, and if that's the whole season, so be it, let's reward him by not dropping him.

[kelv78]

If I aint broke dont fix it if the team are winning then theres no need to change unless someone is injured or suspended now that we have greater competition for places players will be on their toes to perform otherwise they know they might be dropped.

[livercool]

yes man I agree 100% . for example crouch, when he starts a game hes record is exellent but off the bench (for liverpool) he never scores . I wish he wasnt liv best striker but he is , so pick him .

The only problem with rotation is rotation for the sake of rotation. I felt Rafa overdid it last season. How do you explain how a player wins a man of the match award in one game but is not good enough to start the next one. Players should be rotated on merit and not because his turn for the bench is due. Crouch really suffered a lot because of this and I still feel he was not given a chance to play to his full potential last season. A player gets goals for you whenever you bring him on but he is not good enough to start???

I hope Rafa is man enough to have learned from his mistakes and will adopt his favoured rotation policy based on merit. The team needs to gain some sort of stability, a player's form needs to be nurtured until it runs its course, and if that's the whole season, so be it, let's reward him by not dropping him.

[MartOla]

Yeah I agree, too much rotation can (I suppose) have a bad effect on players. I'd probably rather just get a consistant run going before we start tinkering with the sqaud. I mean it's like climbing a slippery hill and falling back down again, you can never reach the peak because you're on the bench the next game and it's hard to get that momentum going. I aint having a go at the rotation by any means as obviously players in the prem are high quality, they're there to do the job no matter what, so really confidence shouldn't really be a part of the players make up  with their''professionalism''.

Our squad now is getting much stronger so it might help the rotation policy, now it'll be Babel, Kewell, rather than Zenden, Gonzalez. Same with the forwards, Same with the midfield and same with the goalkeepers. I don't think it'll be a negative thing this year. There's still alot of positives to take likeno burn-out for the players, always fresh and ready to go, keeps them alive rather than in a comfort zone as there's more competition. I can't grumble with it really.

[Jrwanderer]

I suppose rotation is necessary to rest players and keep up that competetive edge. But I do feel Rafa over does sometimes. There are areas on the pitch that need strong partnerships I.e central defence and up front. Even in the centre of midfield, but I don't think it's that important there.
I agree with njadule's post that it can't be good for a players confidence when he gets man of the match and is dropped for the next game.
last year my friends and I had an on-going joke that if you scored for liverpool you were dropped the next week !

[Liverbird]

I think you use rotation as much as rafa did in his first three years if you are aiming to go far in the cup competitions, but if you want to win the league then you need to keep stability in defence and midfield, look at the mancs last year, ferdinand and vidic, Chelsea have kept JT and RC as there 1st choice partnership since moreen got there, man u last season upfront, rooney was always starting, same for drogba, we kept rotating every striker we had. So this season we need to keep stability up until january in those positions so the lads can get a partnership going.

I think rotation is great it brought us the FA cup and CL but I think rafa used that rotation because he knew we weren't actually good enough to win the league that year so he kept the players fresh for the cups, last year he got us to the CL final after heavily rotating, but this season I dont want us to rotate as much, because we should be aiming for the league.

[bigredarmy]

with the depth of the squad it could be possible rafa wants 3 teams, one for premiership, one for champions league and one for fa/carling cup, so he can have the best players suited for different types of games...

[EddieC]

with the depth of the squad it could be possible rafa wants 3 teams, one for premiership, one for champions league and one for fa/carling cup, so he can have the best players suited for different types of games...

Sorry mate, but that's a ridiculous statement. The team you need to put out is governed by the opposition you're facing, not what competition you're in.

Anyway, I had an idea about rotation, let us know what you think. One of the key criticisms is that players don't develop an understanding when they're playing with different team-mates every week. I personally believe that 'telepathy' is most important in certain key partnerships, the centre backs, central midfielders, strikers, and the fullbacks with the wide players. What we could try is rotating partnerships rather than players, leaving a set of options something like this:

Central Defence
Carragher/Agger or Hyypia/New Player

Central Midfield
Gerrard/Mascherano or Alonso/Sissoko

Strikers
Torres/Kuyt or Crouch/Voronin

Left Back/Left Wing
Riise/Kewell or Aurelio/Babel

Right Back/Right Wing
Finnan/Pennant or Arbeloa/Benayoun

Obviously this couldn't be set in stone, for example sometimes we'll play a 5 man midfield or a Torres/Crouch partnership might be best for the job, but it might be an idea if we could try to keep partnerships going wherever possible.

Like I said, just an idea. Feel free to shoot me down in flames if you think it's a load of bollocks.

[County_Rd_Kopite]

Anyway, I had an idea about rotation, let us know what you think. One of the key criticisms is that players don't develop an understanding when they're playing with different team-mates every week. I personally believe that 'telepathy' is most important in certain key partnerships, the centre backs, central midfielders, strikers, and the fullbacks with the wide players. What we could try is rotating partnerships rather than players, leaving a set of options something like this:

Central Defence
Carragher/Agger or Hyypia/New Player

Central Midfield
Gerrard/Mascherano or Alonso/Sissoko

Strikers
Torres/Kuyt or Crouch/Voronin

Left Back/Left Wing
Riise/Kewell or Aurelio/Babel

Right Back/Right Wing
Finnan/Pennant or Arbeloa/Benayoun

Obviously this couldn't be set in stone, for example sometimes we'll play a 5 man midfield or a Torres/Crouch partnership might be best for the job, but it might be an idea if we could try to keep partnerships going wherever possible.

Like I said, just an idea. Feel free to shoot me down in flames if you think it's a load of bollocks.

That was the idea I was gathering as I read through the topic! Foiled again Eddie!

I think that is a terrific idea, and one I was going to suggest for the front line! Consistent partners build up understandings and how each other plays! One player drops back while another goes to attack! In the defence, if a full-back makes an attacking run, the winger covers! Etc

Understandings are forged through consistent match-time! Such as Hypia and Henchoz! And now Carra and Agger! Maybe a bit more understanding in other areas of the field will produce a more fruitful and fluid style of play!

On the actual subject of rotation, I feel that it is a good idea and one that wins trophies! In moderation however! Changing 8 players is a little drastic but you never really see this happen!

On the topic of condemning rotation, the papers had a two or three week rant at Rafa about how many consecutive games he had fielded an altered side (spanning 99 matches if I remember rightly?) What they failed to include in their damnation of Benitez is that we had the longest run of unbeaten matches in the clubs history and won a European Cup in this time!

[Liverbird]

Sorry Eddie C but I think that would be one of the biggest mistakes we could make this season, thats whats pre-season is for, we dont want to start messing about with our first team in league matches, it might be alright in the carling cup, but if we start doing that in the league we will lose points.

For example, if we were playing a decent side but one we should beat I.e portsmouth and then we decide that we should start trying out new partnerships, what if they don't click and we lose the match and lose points that we should really be winning, rafa should be trying that sort of stuff in training and pre-season, not important games.

[EddieC]

Sorry Eddie C but I think that would be one of the biggest mistakes we could make this season, thats whats pre-season is for, we dont want to start messing about with our first team in league matches, it might be alright in the carling cup, but if we start doing that in the league we will lose points.

For example, if we were playing a decent side but one we should beat I.e portsmouth and then we decide that we should start trying out new partnerships, what if they don't click and we lose the match and lose points that we should really be winning, rafa should be trying that sort of stuff in training and pre-season, not important games.

I don't quite understand your post mate. I was offering a solution that meant less tinkering with the side rather than more. One of the biggest complaints about Rafa's rotation policy is that players don't get the chance to gel, my idea would help resolve that problem. I can't understand why you would think that's a bad idea when it helps water down the rotation policy that you obviously disagree with.

Put it this way, would you rather Rafa continues with his rotation policy as before, or rotate his players in a manner that means you get a regular defensive partnership, a regular midfield partnership, a regular strike partnership, and fullbacks always playing with the same winger in front of them.

Out of the partnership picked earlier it is obvious that one pairing is a lot stronger than the other each time. The pairing that is stronger would be the one playing most of the games. The only real difference would be that fringe players could develop understandings with each other & produce better partnerships, especially if given the chance to play together in the reserves if not selected for first team action. I don't see how the idea could hinder progress in any way as all it would do is give players a better understanding of each other.