It's the end of the beginning, so where are we at?

I think like most supporters if you'd offered me our current position after 8 matches before the season started I'd definitely have taken it. We've won five, drawn two and lost just the once, and if you'd added in the rider that we would get there playing nowhere near so well as we did in the second half of last season, it would have been even more tempting. So all things considered, I think the start (which is probably over now) has to be viewed as a success. If we continued in this current mode, we'd be in the high sixties in terms of points with six games to go and I'm sure everyone would take that. And yet like most fans I'm far less convinced about our performances so far than I was when we really hit a hot streak last season. We don't seem to keep the ball anyway near as well as we did, we don't have quite the same penetration as we did, and overall we don't look quite as good a team as we did. So what are the reasons and how can we solve them?

There are other threads which discuss the performances of individual players so there's no need to go into that too much here, but my feeling is that most everyone would agree our midfield is currently not functioning properly. This applies in ball retention, defensively, energy and inspiration. It's not necessarily a problem of formation because the same problems were there when we were playing the boss's favoured 4-3-3 as they are now we're playing 4-5-1. Defensively we still look porous from set pieces (although IMHO not quite to the same extent) and this is despite having players in defence who are fairly obviously better headers of the ball than we had previously. Up top in terms of the front two we look very potent, but the feeling from this keyboard is that the strikers are having to kind of make it happen for themselves rather than the team opening teams up. I think most would agree with the boss when he says that we've improved our "winning mentality" (notwithstanding yesterday when we definitely didn't go for the kill with enough gusto), and could it be that it is this rather than any improvements which have managed to get us over the line in so many games?

My own thoughts are that in order to get back to our fluency of last season we may need to do two things, one of which will be controversial and one of which kind of goes against the grain for me. Firstly I think we need to revisit the philosophy of "keeping the ball" as I think the pendulum towards "mixing it up" has been slightly overdone. In the early part of last season we kept it for no visible reason and it got daft, before we latterly began to hit it longer on occasions. This time around, we are overdoing the second option to the detriment of the first in my view. To this end, I'd wedge Joe Allen into the midfield somewhere and get him to do what he does best.

For similar reasons and against my better judgement, I'd wedge Danny Agger into the defence somewhere. Yes I know he can't defend to save his life, but with say Sakho and Toure alongside him they can get on with that while letting him do what he does best, namely play. As always it's a question of balance, and ours is just slightly off at the moment. Coutinho coming back will help a lot, but I believe these other subtle changes would help too.
 
 

The point about keeping the ball more is a great one Mick as we seem to have morphed gradually into a side that can't or won't keep the ball for any great length of time. I understand the manager probably looked at things and seen we are a team that is a little more comfortable with faster attacks with more direct play that he would normally use but we seem to take that to the extreme now and no longer look to keep possession and build slowly.

I agree on Allen and I'd like him in the side as well as it's clear midfield isn't working no matter who play together or in what formation and Joe is that player who does liketo keep the ball and move it simply to another of our players.

We miss Downing. 

The point about keeping the ball more is a great one Mick as we seem to have morphed gradually into a side that can't or won't keep the ball for any great length of time. I understand the manager probably looked at things and seen we are a team that is a little more comfortable with faster attacks with more direct play that he would normally use but we seem to take that to the extreme now and no longer look to keep possession and build slowly.

I agree on Allen and I'd like him in the side as well as it's clear midfield isn't working no matter who play together or in what formation and Joe is that player who does liketo keep the ball and move it simply to another of our players.

Si I was wondering about this yesterday watching the game.  Is it that we can't keep possession because we can't find our man, the opposition are closing down quickly or that our players have forgotten how to find space?

We seem to be passing to the nearest player regardless that they're being marked or launching it long because the midfield's overcrowded, in both cases we're losing possession.  It's like we're passing without the movement as when we do pass into space nobody has seen the space so nobody's there.

Also how many times did we use our flanks then had nobody in the box or in space outside the box for them to pass to? 

Si I was wondering about this yesterday watching the game.  Is it that we can't keep possession because we can't find our man, the opposition are closing down quickly or that our players have forgotten how to find space?

We seem to be passing to the nearest player regardless that they're being marked or launching it long because the midfield's overcrowded, in both cases we're losing possession.  It's like we're passing without the movement as when we do pass into space nobody has seen the space so nobody's there.

Also how many times did we use our flanks then had nobody in the box or in space outside the box for them to pass to? 

I didn't see the game yet Debs but from what I've seen before there seems to be a severe lack of movement in the midfield and when we don't have Coutinho no one really moves into to space to recieve the ball. He is excellent at passing then finding space to leave our players an angle to get the ball back to him.

Joe Allen at his best is this type of player and over the last few weeks I've been thinkin ghe might be worth looking at at the expense of Lucas, Gerrard or Henderson.

We could even move Gerrard as the 10 until Phil gets back and sit Joe in beside Lucas and maybe then we will see and keep more of the ball.

I didn't see the game yet Debs but from what I've seen before there seems to be a severe lack of movement in the midfield and when we don't have Coutinho no one really moves into to space to recieve the ball. He is excellent at passing then finding space to leave our players an angle to get the ball back to him.

Joe Allen at his best is this type of player and over the last few weeks I've been thinkin ghe might be worth looking at at the expense of Lucas, Gerrard or Henderson.

We could even move Gerrard as the 10 until Phil gets back and sit Joe in beside Lucas and maybe then we will see and keep more of the ball.

Could be a lot of things Si why things aren't working.  Still getting used to the new system, missing Phil, shoehorning players into the team when there are other/better options on the bench. 

We're approaching a tough run of fixtures which could determine our season so we need to sort it out that's for sure.

The biggest difference for me this season from the good run towards the end of last season is that last season due to the loss of Suarez we were playing with 4 more usually 5 genuine midfield players. E.g. Newcastle last season we had Gerrard, Coutinho, Henderson, Lucas, Downing. All comfortable on the ball to a greater or lesser extent, all capable of keeping possession and keeping moves going, with our fullbacks adding further support.

This season we have been playing with 3 genuine midfielders and 2 wingbacks of varying abilities. Johnson good on the ball, Wisdom, Enrique, Cissokho ... not so much. Effectively sacrificing a midfielder for Suarez and also one for the 3 at the back system.

I think we need to accept that if we want to play possession football we need the numbers in midfield to make this possible. Four at the back with adventurous fullbacks rather than wingbacks would give us an extra genuine midfield player. 

                               Mignolet

Johnson        Toure           Sakho       Enrique

       Henderson      Gerrard         Lucas

                          Coutinho
                     Suarez      Sturridge

Obviously I want to see Suarez and Sturridge continuing their partnership so I think we will have to accept we need support from the fullbacks for width.

I think we need to accept that if we want to play possession football we need the numbers in midfield to make this possible. Four at the back with adventurous fullbacks rather than wingbacks would give us an extra genuine midfield player. 

 

Keeping the ball is not as important as what you do with the ball. Better to pass the ball forwards in quick fluid attacks than forever side ways with little to no penetration. The new 3-5-2 formation definately seems to get the most out of Johnson and Enrique's attacking prowess, as well as accomodating both Suarez and Sturridge as a front man. But the wider issue is, as I've said before, the Summer was not a good window. The wrong sorts of players in the wrong positions where targeted. With Courthinio injured we lack anyone in the side who can make a killer pass. Henderson, for all his improvements, is just not capable of doing that on a consistent basis (because there has been the odd occasion where he has).

Without Courthinio we look a different side, a side bereft of ideas in midfield, and most importantly, a side that relies on it strikers to create their own goal scoring opportunities. Yes, our peformances have been sub-par for most of this season but they where considerably better when we had Philippe in the side. For all his talk of competition for places during the summer, the window was wasted on signing Center backs rather than strengthening the creativity of the midfield. Moses was chronic yesterday, as he's been in most matches so far, so until Courthinio is back from injury, I fear we're going to continue to over rely on our front men for that spark of genius that usually wins matches.

Chopping and changing formation to fit a weakened squad.

No competition for places in midfield or attack.

Our main point of contention about a player that wouldn't get in any of the top 4 teams (Henderson).

A backwards step in developing the youth, despite what we were led to believe. (Wisdom / Sterling)

Hopes pinned on the January transfer window.

Waiting, ever waiting, for news about progress on the stadium.

Knowing that we're not really top 4 material but hoping our false position in the league can convince us otherwise and by some miracle we'll cling on to it.

In acceptance that we're going to lose our best player. (Suarez)

We're exactly where lack of investment, lack of ambition gets you, in the pack behind those that actually want to win, well done FSG.

Chopping and changing formation to fit a weakened squad.

No competition for places in midfield or attack.

Our main point of contention about a player that wouldn't get in any of the top 4 teams (Henderson).

A backwards step in developing the youth, despite what we were led to believe. (Wisdom / Sterling)

Hopes pinned on the January transfer window.

Waiting, ever waiting, for news about progress on the stadium.

Knowing that we're not really top 4 material but hoping our false position in the league can convince us otherwise and by some miracle we'll cling on to it.

In acceptance that we're going to lose our best player. (Suarez)

We're exactly where lack of investment, lack of ambition gets you, in the pack behind those that actually want to win, well done FSG.

Well said. This is exactly where we are at.

Chopping and changing formation to fit a weakened squad.

No competition for places in midfield or attack.

Our main point of contention about a player that wouldn't get in any of the top 4 teams (Henderson).

A backwards step in developing the youth, despite what we were led to believe. (Wisdom / Sterling)

Hopes pinned on the January transfer window.

Waiting, ever waiting, for news about progress on the stadium.

Knowing that we're not really top 4 material but hoping our false position in the league can convince us otherwise and by some miracle we'll cling on to it.

In acceptance that we're going to lose our best player. (Suarez)

We're exactly where lack of investment, lack of ambition gets you, in the pack behind those that actually want to win, well done FSG.

I agree with everything you say apart from about Henderson. All teams need a versatile player who can come in and do a good job for the team, whether that player should be part of our strongest 11 if we want to challenge for the title or even top 4 however is a different matter. Good squad player along with Allen and Lucas, all of which we can and need to improve upon.

It's not quite that bleak in my opinion.

The owners definitely didn't back the manager enough in the summer though. We are devoid of a midfielder with bags of energy who can get up and down the pitch and contribute to the goals column. Henderson has shown it in glimpses but is undoubtedly a squad player in my eyes. Paulinho would have been absolutely perfect for this role to be honest. Schneiderlin another one I'd have looked at for it.

Think BR's mistake was spending close to £15m on Alberto and Aspas. Or over £20m on those two and Ilori. Sure, it's nice to have youngsters with big potential but we could have kept Suso for the Alberto role, and spent the money of the above two/three on a midfielder, a priority position. Ilori may become greats but Sakho/Toure/Agger/Skrtel/Kelly is MORE than enough to cover the centre back position. And that's without including Coates.

Feels like we're overloaded in a number of areas, namely defence. I think our main issue is a huge lack of squad depth or variant options in midfield, the wings or attack. Hence our bench always seeming very weak compared to other top teams.

Make no mistake though I think our first eleven is very good indeed (in a 4-2-3-1, I hope from here on in). It's just that once the inevitable injuries hit we don't have able deputies because of the aforementioned wastes of money (my view).

Having said all that, we're clearly in a far better position team and squadwise than this time last season or when FSG became owners. Hopefully we continue to build, but make the right decisions in terms of who we sign in future transfer windows.

I'm over the moon to be where we are now, I never expected a top 4 finish this season, even if we had a better transfer window in the summer if would still have been a big ask.
Centre midfield is turning out to be the problem area everyone thought it would be, we still can't deal with set pieces.
Plenty of positives though, we've got the best deadly duo since The King and Rushie, and we look very srong in central defence, and Brendan is being less rigid and is prepared to try out new things (unfortunately he doesn't have a strong enough panel thanks to FSG)

We have some big games coming up over the next couple of months, away from home, which may well be a good thing coming into the second half of the season where we SHOULD have a stronger squad.

If we cut out the sloppy goals, we should still be within touching distance of the top 4 come January.

So far so good!

Chopping and changing formation to fit a weakened squad.

No competition for places in midfield or attack.

Our main point of contention about a player that wouldn't get in any of the top 4 teams (Henderson).

A backwards step in developing the youth, despite what we were led to believe. (Wisdom / Sterling)

Hopes pinned on the January transfer window.

Waiting, ever waiting, for news about progress on the stadium.

Knowing that we're not really top 4 material but hoping our false position in the league can convince us otherwise and by some miracle we'll cling on to it.

In acceptance that we're going to lose our best player. (Suarez)

We're exactly where lack of investment, lack of ambition gets you, in the pack behind those that actually want to win, well done FSG.

Ditto

Totally agree with mick that we need to revisit last year's philosophy of just keeping the ball. Short intricate play in the midfield with Allen at the centre of proceedings on the possession front. It's incredible though that as relatively ugly as we have been we are third in the league, a couple of points from Arsenal with the belief that we can do so much better. Much better than third from bottom with the belief that we can do so much better....as was the case this time three years ago! That's reason for optimism.

2 points from the top despite playing the first few games without our best striker and the last few games without our best attacking midfielder. All that after seasons finishing 8th, 7th. Yeah it's not too bad, despite the apocalypse mongers.

The problem is we've not had a settled team all season because there has been players missing

Suarez - Suspended
Agger - Injured
Johnson - Injured
Enrique - Injured
Coutinho - Injured
Toure - Injured
Cissokho - Injured
Aspas - Injured
Lucas - Baby Born
Kelly - Unfit and then Injured

Be them slight knocks like Agger and Jose or long term like Johnson, Aly and Coutinho, either way we have pretty much had to make a change(s) to our line up/formation every game because we've lost a player and it's gotten worse since the first International break this season so it's no coincidence we only have 1 win since that time. We haven't been able to field our strongest line up all season where as Arsenal, Saints, Spurs, City and Chelsea etc have been able to so it could be a lot worse than sitting level on points with 2nd.

We are just starting to get back to a full team so I'm feeling positive about the coming weeks. This formation we are now playing wasn't right a couple of weeks ago because we had to play Sterling RWB but we now have Johnson back and Lucas will be back next game for midfield and Coutinho will soon be back in the number 10 role instead of Moses, we have the 2 best strikers in the league smashing in the goals so a couple weeks when we have our key players back, particularly Coutinho, I think there will be much better performances and more wins on the way.

Newcastle wasn't great, especially defensively but at the same time, Johnson and Aly haven't played for a while so they didn't have that match sharpness which probably contributed to the errors made, particularly Aly. We done everything we could to win that game but hit the bar and denied by Krul on the free kick at the end.

We will soon have a full strength starting 11 with some decent options on the bench too.

It's just always more frustrating at the time and I am happy to admit, I didn't feel this way yesterday but you never do when you drop points. We have one of the leagues top keepers, arguably the best defence when they all settles and gel, without doubt the best strike force in Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho, it's just our midfield that's lacking but I have faith in Stevie, Hendo and Lucas doing a good enough job until we can strengthen, (hopefully with Xabi )

Joint 2nd whilst playing badly most of the games without a strongest line up, makes me feel optimistic about the potential of the team when it all clicks and takes off, dominating performances and comfortable victories like the back end of last season when we were destroying teams.

I do agree that 17 points from the first 8 games looks good but when you look a bit closer it isn't actually that great. We've only had one truly 'tough' game and we're still dropping silly points like in previous seasons. Throwing away a lead at Swansea, losing at home to Southampton without creating a chance and not taking advantage of a 10 man Newcastle. Those are the kind of results that come back to haunt you come May.

Hope we get into a rhythm when Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge play together regularly.

2 points from the top despite playing the first few games without our best striker and the last few games without our best attacking midfielder. All that after seasons finishing 8th, 7th. Yeah it's not too bad, despite the apocalypse mongers.

Not quite apocalypse mongers, more realists.

Our results and relative position of those teams:


1-0 Win v Stoke (15th in the league)
1-0 Win v Villa (13th if they lose today, which they currently are)
1-0 Win v United (8th in the league)
2-2 Draw v Swansea (11th in the league)
0-1 Loss v Southampton (6th in the league)
3-1 Win v Sunderland (Bottom of the league)
3-1 Win v Palace (19th in the league)
2-2 Draw v Newcastle (10th in the league)

8 games played and we've played 3 teams in the top half of the league with a record 1-1-1, could think that could be worse.

We've played 1 team in the top 6 with a record of 1 loss and played nobody in the top 5 yet (of course we're included in that). All this crap that we're doing good because you only need to look at the league to know that is painting over the cracks that are clearly there and will soon be exposed if we don't sort them out.

We were handed the best league start we could possibly have asked for and people keep banging on about being 2 points from top, well we're only 2 points from 8th also and our season is about to get a whole lot harder than it has been. If we're still in the top 4 by Christmas, playing the way we are I'll personally be astonished, unfortunately I think reality will hit hard for some.

The problem is we've not had a settled team all season because there has been players missing

Suarez - Suspended
Agger - Injured
Johnson - Injured
Enrique - Injured
Coutinho - Injured
Toure - Injured
Cissokho - Injured
Aspas - Injured
Lucas - Baby Born
Kelly - Unfit and then Injured

Be them slight knocks like Agger and Jose or long term like Johnson, Aly and Coutinho, either way we have pretty much had to make a change(s) to our line up/formation every game because we've lost a player and it's gotten worse since the first International break this season so it's no coincidence we only have 1 win since that time. We haven't been able to field our strongest line up all season where as Arsenal, Saints, Spurs, City and Chelsea etc have been able to so it could be a lot worse than sitting level on points with 2nd.

We are just starting to get back to a full team so I'm feeling positive about the coming weeks. This formation we are now playing wasn't right a couple of weeks ago because we had to play Sterling RWB but we now have Johnson back and Lucas will be back next game for midfield and Coutinho will soon be back in the number 10 role instead of Moses, we have the 2 best strikers in the league smashing in the goals so a couple weeks when we have our key players back, particularly Coutinho, I think there will be much better performances and more wins on the way.

Newcastle wasn't great, especially defensively but at the same time, Johnson and Aly haven't played for a while so they didn't have that match sharpness which probably contributed to the errors made, particularly Aly. We done everything we could to win that game but hit the bar and denied by Krul on the free kick at the end.

We will soon have a full strength starting 11 with some decent options on the bench too.

It's just always more frustrating at the time and I am happy to admit, I didn't feel this way yesterday but you never do when you drop points. We have one of the leagues top keepers, arguably the best defence when they all settles and gel, without doubt the best strike force in Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho, it's just our midfield that's lacking but I have faith in Stevie, Hendo and Lucas doing a good enough job until we can strengthen, (hopefully with Xabi )

Joint 2nd whilst playing badly most of the games without a strongest line up, makes me feel optimistic about the potential of the team when it all clicks and takes off, dominating performances and comfortable victories like the back end of last season when we were destroying teams.

If only we could play our strongest 11 in every game of the season!
We have SOME pretty damn good players, and if we could only keep the injuries down and give BR the chance to get a settled team, we could give ourselves a fighting chance (at 4th place).

Every player in the team doesn't have to be world class to be successful (look at UTDs squad last season  ) But there are key areas, depending on the formation and tactics deployed, where you need the best players operating to make it work, like the No10 role in BRs formation. This is where strength in depth comes in, and one of the areas where we are under staffed due to FSGs wage bill reducing.

Where's Suso when you need him?

y own thoughts are that in order to get back to our fluency of last season we may need to do two things, one of which will be controversial and one of which kind of goes against the grain for me. Firstly I think we need to revisit the philosophy of "keeping the ball" as I think the pendulum towards "mixing it up" has been slightly overdone. In the early part of last season we kept it for no visible reason and it got daft, before we latterly began to hit it longer on occasions. This time around, we are overdoing the second option to the detriment of the first in my view. To this end, I'd wedge Joe Allen into the midfield somewhere and get him to do what he does best.

Nice OP and I thought I would focus on this bit. first things first, dump this 3 at the back formation. It has served it's purpose BUT it contributes to the lack of fluency and ability to keep hold of the ball (at least in any meaningful way). It lends itself to a more direct approach because of the lack of options it presents and it limits the opportunity for players to interchange and offer good movement. Secondly get Coutinho back in the team, he will make a massive difference and if we're honest we were looking fairly fluid and decent on the ball up until he got injured. whether it's in an advanced midfield position or cutting in off the left he will make a big big difference to how we play. Thirdly I would be inclined to agree that Some playing time for Allen might be a good shout although probably not in the AMF role.

I think a lot of our games this season have been quite bitty and without a flow that we became accustomed to last season. Players playing out of position I feel is a large factor of this.

Wasn't a fan of Cissokho in midfield at all yesterday, likewise with Moses in the number 10 role. Square pegs in round holes and it is not helping the team at all.

I am confident that now Johnson is back from injury, Coutinho set to return from his lay off and Lucas slotting back into holding midfield we will see a more balanced line-up and more cohesion in our play.

Results will hopefully follow!