The Transfer Committee Thread

I've explained it as basically as I can Si. If you don't get the difference now, or refuse to, you probably never will, but ask yourself why you'd want a DoF (something you've always wanted) instead of what we have, when that's exactly what Dortmund have and not what we have. You maintain they're the same yet you're shown reasons why they're different and still keep saying they're the same, it's unbelievable to be honest.

Which is better, Dortmund's approach or ours? If you can answer definitively that one is better than the other, how can they be the same?

Ask yourself why we bought two players for the same position and still managed to choose the wrong player out of the two to start games.

We have no direction with our choices, the disconnect is as obvious as it could be, one time the committee chooses (this is where the over reliance on statistics debate comes in and our over reliance on them without a DoF to guide the decision therefore making appropriate use of the statistics rather than using them as the driving force behind the decision as demonstrated previously) the next it's Brendan, honestly a broken system on conception.

The manager not fully buying into the process is a big factor in where we have went wrong Luke and as you say why we seem to have bought to players for some positions like Lovren/Sakho and the manager pikcing 'his guy'.

Now when I say our system is the same as what most of the top clubs in Europe use I don't mean they are exactly the same to the final degree just that 99% of clubs in Europe use a process that has a 'transfer committee' which has an analytics guy, a head scout, the Head Coach, and then more often than not a DoF.

When I say our system is the 'same' I'm talking about the process in selecting players to recruit as it will involve the manager and the others discussing what positions he needs filling and the type or profile of player he needs then the stats people and the scouts will bring a list of players that the manager/Head Coach will pick from and they then go out and try and sign them. They stats will back up what the scouts have seen with the 'eye' and vice versa.

Once a player has been selected as the one they then negotiate to try and sign him.

Our 'committee' uses a combination of stats and scouting to try and get players in that fit the managers profile.

Dortmuds 'committee' uses a  combination of stats and scouting to try and get players in that fit the managers profile.

The only real difference is that they have Zorc as the DoF to head up their committee of scouts, Head Scout, analytics department, Head Coach etc etc whereas we don't seem to have that but in the last 12-18 months it appears Mike Gordon has been that guy alongside Ian Ayre.  This is the only difference I can see and I do agree with you that we need a DoF as a matter of course to become the head of our recruitment and with that we shouldn't see the disconnect between what the manager wants and what the others in the committee want.

The manager not fully buying into the process is a big factor in where we have went wrong Luke and as you say why we seem to have bought to players for some positions like Lovren/Sakho and the manager pikcing 'his guy'.

Now when I say our system is the same as what most of the top clubs in Europe use I don't mean they are exactly the same to the final degree just that 99% of clubs in Europe use a process that has a 'transfer committee' which has an analytics guy, a head scout, the Head Coach, and then more often than not a DoF.

When I say our system is the 'same' I'm talking about the process in selecting players to recruit as it will involve the manager and the others discussing what positions he needs filling and the type or profile of player he needs then the stats people and the scouts will bring a list of players that the manager/Head Coach will pick from and they then go out and try and sign them. They stats will back up what the scouts have seen with the 'eye' and vice versa.

Once a player has been selected as the one they then negotiate to try and sign him.

Our 'committee' uses a combination of stats and scouting to try and get players in that fit the managers profile.

Dortmuds 'committee' uses a  combination of stats and scouting to try and get players in that fit the managers profile.

The only real difference is that they have Zorc as the DoF to head up their committee of scouts, Head Scout, analytics department, Head Coach etc etc whereas we don't seem to have that but in the last 12-18 months it appears Mike Gordon has been that guy alongside Ian Ayre.  This is the only difference I can see and I do agree with you that we need a DoF as a matter of course to become the head of our recruitment and with that we shouldn't see the disconnect between what the manager wants and what the others in the committee want.

See you clearly see the difference Si, which I fully expected:

"The only real difference is that they have Zorc as the DoF to head up their committee of scouts, Head Scout, analytics department, Head Coach etc etc whereas we don't seem to have that but in the last 12-18 months it appears Mike Gordon has been that guy alongside Ian Ayre."

and therein lies the very problem that myself, S@int, Beerbelly and others have been trying to get across. These are not "good footballing men" they aren't qualified in any sense, have no experience in the game, neither playing, coaching or absolutely anything of any substance. They are making decisions based on the information presented to them in a different manner than a Zorc or any other proper DoF would.

This bears out in the players we've signed, as S@int quite clearly highlighted. We've either bought players the manager expressly wished, which have proven to be failures or players that the analysts recommended and that decision wasn't tempered with the knowledge that Aspas was the size of a minion, Downing crossed the ball 30 times a match, to nobody in particular but he most certainly crossed the ball. Charlie Adam had a stand out year at Blackpool and his stats went through the roof, suddenly he's top of our shopping list when everyone is wondering why?!? The list goes on and on down that same process.

So as you clearly demonstrate our system is indeed quite different from Dortmunds or "every other top team in Europe" because it is lacking that vital ingredient that you correctly want in the shape of a "good football man" to bring together all the stats, all the scouts and the manager's wishes and form a coherent direction for the club to shape it's transfer objectives.

"The only real difference is that they have Zorc as the DoF to head up their committee of scouts, Head Scout, analytics department, Head Coach etc etc whereas we don't seem to have that but in the last 12-18 months it appears Mike Gordon has been that guy alongside Ian Ayre."

And his qualifications are in finance and he founded hedge fund Vinik Asset Management.

He maybe an expert in stocks and shares, numbers (statistical analyst) I suppose I would be if I didn't understand football enough, but he doesn't have the experience or qualifications to be the equivalent of a DoF, or simply put, a "footballing man".

See you clearly see the difference Si, which I fully expected:

"The only real difference is that they have Zorc as the DoF to head up their committee of scouts, Head Scout, analytics department, Head Coach etc etc whereas we don't seem to have that but in the last 12-18 months it appears Mike Gordon has been that guy alongside Ian Ayre."

and therein lies the very problem that myself, S@int, Beerbelly and others have been trying to get across. These are not "good footballing men" they aren't qualified in any sense, have no experience in the game, neither playing, coaching or absolutely anything of any substance. They are making decisions based on the information presented to them in a different manner than a Zorc or any other proper DoF would.

This bears out in the players we've signed, as S@int quite clearly highlighted. We've either bought players the manager expressly wished, which have proven to be failures or players that the analysts recommended and that decision wasn't tempered with the knowledge that Aspas was the size of a minion, Downing crossed the ball 30 times a match, to nobody in particular but he most certainly crossed the ball. Charlie Adam had a stand out year at Blackpool and his stats went through the roof, suddenly he's top of our shopping list when everyone is wondering why?!? The list goes on and on down that same process.

So as you clearly demonstrate our system is indeed quite different from Dortmunds or "every other top team in Europe" because it is lacking that vital ingredient that you correctly want in the shape of a "good football man" to bring together all the stats, all the scouts and the manager's wishes and form a coherent direction for the club to shape it's transfer objectives.

Jesus Luke are you going mad mate?

I don't know how after reading my post you come to the conclusion that I 'clearly demonstrate our system is indeed quite different from Dortmunds' when I in fact wrote that it is almost exactly the same apart from the man, or men who head it up.

Briefly if I can mention Downing and Adam they were actually bought with a very clear purpose in mind and actually were selcted by Comolli to fit how the manager wanted to play so I'm not sure that is a goood example of us 'not working'. In fact it's the oppposite and shows how well Kenny and Comolli worked together.

I agree on your point on a DoF heading the committee and being the guy they answer to, I always have, but I think you dwell on this ppoint when in fact it isn't the debate we are having. Your saying we don't recruit players in the same way as most European clubs when in fact we do.

Both us and Dormund, and the majority of clubs, use a combination of stats and scouting to recruit players.

Our system is virtually identical even down to the fact the the Head Coach has to green light any player that arrives. The difference we seem to have had is that our previous manager appears to have done this trough gritted teeth.

I think the one which sums up the "disconnect" between the committee, the manager and everyone involved were the Benteke/Firmino deals. By all accounts Brendan wanted Benteke but wasn't fussed about Firmino, but he agreed not to dig his heels in about the Hoffenheim man as long as he got Benteke. Whether or not anyone agrees with our system, I cannot think of a better illustration that it had broken down by the end into a complete nonsense. 

Someone, be it a DOF or a manager or the tea lady if you want but anyway, SOMEONE, has to have the FINAL say.

It's amazing any transfers went wrong, before these damn lies and statistics came into football.

It's amazing any transfers went wrong, before these damn lies and statistics came into football.

Exactly.

Back to bashing our clothes onto rocks.

At least it will ensure we're not lazy!

I think the one which sums up the "disconnect" between the committee, the manager and everyone involved were the Benteke/Firmino deals. By all accounts Brendan wanted Benteke but wasn't fussed about Firmino, but he agreed not to dig his heels in about the Hoffenheim man as long as he got Benteke. Whether or not anyone agrees with our system, I cannot think of a better illustration that it had broken down by the ned into a complete nonsense. 

FSG's biggest mistake was not appointing a DoF Mick because if we did I'd bet that we probably would have seen broadly the same signings that we have made over the time of the 'committee' but then people would have someone to 'blame' for the 'failures'.

Like I said to Luke I think we need a DoF as a matter of course, I always have, but my main point is in how we arrive at a player being recruited and it is the same way most other European clubs do by scouting them and backing this up with the analysis. Even the players that are seen as 'Brendans' will have been scouted and also put 'through the computer' and then a value attached to them before we negotiate to buy them.

 

I don't know how after reading my post you come to the conclusion that I 'clearly demonstrate our system is indeed quite different from Dortmunds' when I in fact wrote that it is almost exactly the same apart from the man, or men who head it up.

F**k a duck, yes I must be going mad Si, because again you clearly state the difference while maintaining it's almost the same denoting a difference twice in this sentence alone.

I agree on your point on a DoF heading the committee and being the guy they answer to, I always have, but I think you dwell on this ppoint when in fact it isn't the debate we are having. Your saying we don't recruit players in the same way as most European clubs when in fact we do.

No we don't, as you've said above, it's clear as day is different from night.

Both us and Dormund, and the majority of clubs, use a combination of stats and scouting to recruit players.

No need to bold this part Si, nobody, I mean nobody is disputing it in the slightest. It's what is done with these statistics, scouting reports and managerial recommendations.

Our system is virtually identical even down to the fact the the Head Coach has to green light any player that arrives. The difference we seem to have had is that our previous manager appears to have done this trough gritted teeth.

Virtually again denotes you know the difference Si. They are not the same, they are similar to a point, but the difference is crucial, is an absolutely fundamental flaw. 

Anyway mate let's leave it because it's getting silly now.

To put it bluntly, statistical analysis has not been the problem with how we recruited players under Rodgers.

No need to bold this part Si, nobody, I mean nobody is disputing it in the slightest. It's what is done with these statistics, scouting reports and managerial recommendations.

Indeed. We buy footballers with them.

Jesus Luke are you going mad mate?

I don't know how after reading my post you come to the conclusion that I 'clearly demonstrate our system is indeed quite different from Dortmunds' when I in fact wrote that it is almost exactly the same apart from the man, or men who head it up.

Briefly if I can mention Downing and Adam they were actually bought with a very clear purpose in mind and actually were selcted by Comolli to fit how the manager wanted to play so I'm not sure that is a goood example of us 'not working'. In fact it's the oppposite and shows how well Kenny and Comolli worked together.

I agree on your point on a DoF heading the committee and being the guy they answer to, I always have, but I think you dwell on this ppoint when in fact it isn't the debate we are having. Your saying we don't recruit players in the same way as most European clubs when in fact we do.

Both us and Dormund, and the majority of clubs, use a combination of stats and scouting to recruit players.

Our system is virtually identical even down to the fact the the Head Coach has to green light any player that arrives. The difference we seem to have had is that our previous manager appears to have done this trough gritted teeth.

Maybe I can help make it clearer mate.

Most clubs have head of scouts, analysts, money men etc etc who compile information on a player which is then passed to the D.O.F. or manager (the football guy) who makes the decision on whether to go for this player or that one.

We seem to have a system where the head of scouts, analyst and moneymen etc etc HAVE AN EQUAL VOTE with our football guy.

So instead of the football guy making the decision it is made by a money man, stats man scout etc etc and Brendan as just another vote.

Yes Brendan could decide yes or no, but he didn't have the same say in who, which is what leads to ridiculous situations like Firmino and Benteke.

We seem to have a system where the head of scouts, analyst and moneymen etc etc HAVE AN EQUAL VOTE with our football guy.

Alright Saint let's for argument say that is the case  I can bet that, almost to a man, the people who post on this forum will say that the better players we have signed during Brendan's time here have been one's put forward by the Head of Scouts, analyst and moneymen.

Alright Saint let's for argument say that is the case  I can bet that, almost to a man, the people who post on this forum will say that the better players we have signed during Brendan's time here have been one's put forward by the Head of Scouts, analyst and moneymen.

Totally agree mate, I have been saying that for ages. That doesn't alter the fact that the system is broken.

Totally agree mate, I have been saying that for ages. That doesn't alter the fact that the system is broken.

Or does it suggest the system works and having a manager who buys into said system we won't have players bought that he won't use or use incorrectly?

I'm not sure how we can totally criticise the stats men, the scouting men and the money men if we then agree, as you have above, that it apppers they have put forward the better players we have signed over the last few years.

Or does it suggest the system works and having a manager who buys into said system we won't have players bought that he won't use or use incorrectly?

I'm not sure how we can totally criticise the stats men, the scouting men and the money men if we then agree, as you have above, that it apppers they have put forward the better players we have signed over the last few years.

Because out of 31 players bought and £300million spent how many have proven to be a success? There is no better proof that the system is broken than that.

So whether the TC has bought better players than Brendan or not hardly matters.... very few have proven good enough.

When you have a manager so incensed at not getting the players he wants that he doesn't play certain players .... the system is broken

When you have a manager trading with the rest of the committee like school kids over players.... the system is broken

When you have transfers that appear to take little notice of squad requirements , balance and planning ... the system is broken


 

Because out of 31 players bought and £300million spent how many have proven to be a success? There is no better proof that the system is broken than that.

So whether the TC has bought better players than Brendan or not hardly matters.... very few have proven good enough.

I'm of the opinion that many of these players will prove to be good enough mate as you know.

I'm of the opinion that many of these players willporve to be good enough mate as you know.

But you insisted that the players bought this summer where Brendan's picks not the TC ...

But you insisted that the players bought this summer where Brendan's picks not the TC ...

I'm not talking just about this summer mate but you make a good point as I have also said that I think Brendan has bought some good players here.

The bigger probelm I think we have seen over the last 12/18 months is that the manager appears to have agreed to players being signed but then not giving them a fair crack of the whip and playing 'his guys' to the detriment of the team.

Lovren ahead of Sakho.

Binning off Manquillo for Glen.

Loaning out Lazar and Ilori.

I'm not talking just about this summer mate but you make a good point as I have also said that I think Brendan has bought some good players here.

The bigger probelm I think we have seen over the last 12/18 months is that the manager appears to have agreed to players being signed but then not giving them a fair crack of the whip and playing 'his guys' to the detriment of the team.

Lovren ahead of Sakho.

Binning off Manquillo for Glen.

Loaning out Lazar and Ilori.

I think the whole system needs revamping mate. Hopefully Klopp and FSG can agree to rebuilding it with a little more emphasis on quality and a little less on potential, and with men at the top who will look at the balance of the squad and planning for the future rather than an opportunistic approach to transfers.     

The bigger probelm I think we have seen over the last 12/18 months is that the manager appears to have agreed to players being signed but then not giving them a fair crack of the whip and playing 'his guys' to the detriment of the team.

Or not signing Depay for example, because we were after a centre forward and had enough wingers at the club but then sold Sterling, loaned out Markovic, Ibe is struggling and Lallana is always injured. There have been faults from Rodgers and faults from the committee so lets hope that under the new management the slate can be wiped clean and we start getting better results from the players we sign and if we don't sign a certain player due to there being enough in that position, don't then go and get rid of half of them and leave us struggling in a position.

Or not signing Depay for example, because we were after a centre forward and had enough wingers at the club but then sold Sterling, loaned out Markovic, Ibe is struggling and Lallana is always injured. There have been faults from Rodgers and faults from the committee so lets hope that under the new management the slate can be wiped clean and we start getting better results from the players we sign and if we don't sign a certain player due to there being enough in that position, don't then go and get rid of half of them and leave us struggling in a position.

Planning mate... but you expanded on it brilliantly.

I think the whole system needs revamping mate. Hopefully Klopp and FSG can agree to rebuilding it with a little more emphasis on quality and a little less on potential, and with men at the top who will look at the balance of the squad and planning for the future rather than an opportunistic approach to transfers.     

One thing I will say is that if Klopp wants changes I'd give him those changes.

Time will tell although is suspect the system will broadly stay as it is mate.