Our Financial State and manager ideas.

[YNWABairn]

I hate to think of this being the case, but I think I need reasurring. If we don't qualify for the champions league this year, then does this mean we'll be in some serious financial s**t?
I mean will we have to start selling our top players just to keep afloat? I hate to put a downer on things, but I can't just help but compare this with Leeds' situation, I.E fall out of champions league, sell our top players, start falling down the league and eventually administration?

Someome with an idea of big business reassure me please as to be honest, I fear the worst for us with Hicks and Gillett in charge.

And another thing. IF rafa was to go for whatever reason (maybe torres is forced out the owners for a big wage and rafa as promised leaves), who do you think would be a suitable man to take the role? I personally think if rafa was to be properly funded then we would be out of this sh***y mess, but I'd like to hear your ideas.

[dunlop liddell shankly]

We're in serious financial trouble as it is lad, and will remain so regardless of Champions League qualification or not. The only difference being we may be able to hold on to our star players if we're in Europe's premier competition because we'll be able to offer it to them, whereas if we don't make the top four this year then other clubs will be able to offer them Champions League football which may tempt them away from Anfield.

But like I said, regardless of making the top four or not we will be in financial sh*t and will remain so as long as Hicks and Gillett are in charge of the club.

Will we do a Leeds and end up in the third tier of English football? I don't think we will but of course it is possible, it's possible for any side to go into the obscurity of League 1. But the important thing now is to ensure we are in the Champions League next year and that means by putting all our efforts into matters on the pitch.

[Ross]

Thing I'm slightly concerned about - people have been saying if we don't get into the CL, H&G may be forced to sell.

However, is there a possibillity that the club will then move into the hands of an owner(s) that are 'less rich'?

[corballyred]

I don't think there is less rich ross then our 2, all there money is tied up in loans property etc I'd say this have very little disposable cash.

It looks like Hicks sale of Texas Rangers has also hit a hitch. Whoever comes in has to be capable of meeting our interest repayments something our owners will be incapable of doing if we don't get Champions League football.

[eurored]

We and the scum are responsible for over 50% of the debt on football clubs in Europe.

Fact.

I dont care about the scum. I hate them. They can go down the toilet. Love it.
 


I care about our beloved club who I have supported since 1962.

[JD]

Good to see somebody openly admit they aren't aware of the depth of our financial problems.  I am certain having read some comments that quite a lot of people aren't.

Let's just clear this up.  Champions League, or no Champions League we are in trouble.

We need to magic £100M to pay back this summer or RBS will call in the entire £250M loan.

A potential £15M or whatever it is from Champions League qualification (which even if we finish 4th remember, isn't assured as you must 'qualify') is pissing in the wind.

Liverpool's performance last year brought in more money than the 'football' ever has at Liverpool and Rafa was rewarded by still having to sell to buy.

Dirk Kuyt on the right, Rafa yabba yabba - the overriding concern for the future of Liverpool Football Club is the removal of the two fraudsters running the shop. 

[RedRoy]

Mate the facts are that the owners currently owe £237M to the banks,this results in annual interest repayments of £44M.So far they have not been prepared to repay this with their own money,so the club's revenue from the EPL and Europe,plus income from player sales has funded this,so success on the field has masked lack of investment off it.Now we are experiencing a downturn in performance on-field,coupled with a lack of financial commitment in the boardroom.The consequences of this, are relative to the club concerned,in the case of Leeds and Portsmouth,both clubs with quality local support,the results were dire.In our case. we are a global brand,so our future is less painfull.Yes we will suffer,but that's on a fan's expectation level,currently we have no right to expect anything above a top 7 placing.I prefer to wait until the end of the season to justify my comments,but trust me brothers,there will be a lot to discuss come the end of the season.For what it's worth, IRIT.

[Ross]

Definitely made things a lot clearer for me.

[SM]

We need to magic £100M to pay back this summer or RBS will call in the entire £250M loan.

JD - Im also confused about this and in particular your comment above.

Does this mean that the owners will then be forced to pay the money out of their own pockets if they have it or sell the club at a lower asking price..?

Thanks

[racerx34]

I've got a frightening scenario. Man City get into the Champions League and then have the money and prestige to attract any player they want. Our only hope then is that United fall even further than we do. I'm really not looking forward to this summer. To clear the debt and start a stadium we need in the region of 400M. We can but dream at this point as the reality of our owners has worn everyone from the manager to the fans down to our core

[JD]

JD - Im also confused about this and in particular your comment above.

The bank have said that £100M of the loan must be repaid this summer.  They do not feel comfortable having a loan of nearly £250M against the club.

The owners have said they are not putting any of their own money in to the club.

So either someone comes along with £100M for a share in the club, Liverpool sell players to the tune of £100M, or RBS call in the loan and take control of the club and then begin ways to find their full £250M owed.

[Brian78]

The bank have said that £100M of the loan must be repaid this summer.  They do not feel comfortable having a loan of nearly £250M against the club.

The owners have said they are not putting any of their own money in to the club.

So either someone comes along with £100M for a share in the club, Liverpool sell players to the tune of £100M, or RBS call in the loan and take control of the club and then begin ways to find their full £250M owed.

Option 3 the most likely outcome which would see the bank selling the likes of Torres to get there cash back. Option 2 is the only other way which again would mean the selling of the likes of Torres. What a situation we find ourselves in

[RedStorm]

I know the situation is quite depressing, but I fully believe there is light at the end of the tunnel, as in I think the 2 Venereal Diseases will sell for a lower price and we can look to forward to new ownership.

Let's face it, any owner is better than this sh*t, as the only worse owner than this, would be Satan himself!

It may be blindly optimistic, but deep down I think there's going to be major and positive change in the summer, as it simply cannot go on like this.

[Ross]

Would RBS taking control be a bad thing?

[racerx34]

If the bank took your house back off you would it be a bad thing

[ayrton77]

However, is there a possibillity that the club will then move into the hands of an owner(s) that are 'less rich'?

I don't think there is less rich ross then our 2, all there money is tied up in loans property etc I'd say this have very little disposable cash.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Good "awareness" topic this.

either someone comes along with £100M for a share in the club, Liverpool sell players to the tune of £100M, or RBS call in the loan and take control of the club and then begin ways to find their full £250M owed.

This is the situation in a nutshell.

Obviously everyone's biggest fear is the second option - selling players to refund the loan. Whilst it's possible it could happen, I don't think it's likely. If the owners sold all our best players without replacing them, it's clear the value of the club would drop. We'd be unlikely to get Champion's League qualification money, and there's no point mentioning the Europa League as the prize money isn't significant. Also, don't forget the lower we drop down the league table, the less income we have from TV deals and so on, never mind the Standard Chartered deal is also in part based on us achieving certain goals in the EPL/CL I believe.

Were this a poker game, I would suggest that RBS, in demanding the money this summer, have called Hicks and Gillett's bluff. They have been vocal in the press about the club being in a good financial position, but it's clear those are more lies, and I don't think they're confident we can continue refunding the interest owed, never mind the loan itself.

Leaves the other two possibilities. I can't see any investor putting up the £100 million, without certain agreements that the owners don't look likely to make. For example, rumours were that an Indian billionaire had proposed to refund the debt, in return for a cotrolling stake in the club - nothing materialised.

I do think RBS will end up controlling the club, but where will we go from there? I clearly think we'll find a buyer, but will they have the financial muscle to keep us at the top? Will we see the stadium built in the next ten years? Will we slip back into mid-table mediocrity?

These are the questions without answers. What's clear is that we have been raped by Hicks and Gillett, and they have undone the progress made by Rafa in the last five years. It's terrible to think we were so close to the title last year and now we're in this position.

I just hope any owner will have respect for the manager (whoever he may be!) and the fans. It's the only way forward.

Final word: I am confident the club will survive, and regardless of our standing in the league and Europe, we will always stand behind our team.

[RedLFCBlood]

What ever the scenario we are Royally fu**ed unless.. 

(1) some one takes complete ownership (which will not happen as any potential investors will be rubbing their hands together, knowing without Champions League football they can get us on the cheap)

(2) some one invests 100 million (which I don't believe will happen due the same scenario as number 1)

(3) Torres could possibly be sold for 100 million but I'd say that is extremely unlikely as Only Man City or Chelsea have that financial clout and as Torres has already confirmed if he was forced to leave Barcelona would be his choice.

(4) That leaves Mascherano to Barca for 50 million, Gerrard to Madrid for 30 million and the 20 million transfer budget to make up the 100 million.

I'd say scenario number (4) is most likely.

[racerx34]

So Torres Gerrard and Mascherano out and the " transfer budget "  leaves us at estimated 150M.... which pays off a large chunk of the debt but leaves us up sh*t creek football wise. The options are fantastic. Although I look forward to getting to watch

        Lucas  Aquilani
Babel     Pacheco     Benni
             Ngog

guide us back to the Europa League

[ozi_wozzy]

I'm depressed

[redkenny]

We're properly fu**ed.

RBS will want their money back soon and the club won't be able to pay it. Ignore any sh*te that's came out of Purslows mouth, he's just a relations fella. He wants good press for the club for the need to attract potential investors which would keep the yanks here.

I believe RBS will gain control of the club and try to make it's money back in which ever way they deem fit.

And when a ship starts sinking, people try to escape.

[RedLFCBlood]

I have to disagree, I don't think RBS will take control of the club, H&G will sell the family silverware first before they lose any chance of lining their pockets, that is why I'd expect to see some big name players sold during the summer window to help them raise the 100 million along with the 20 million we should receive from Standard Chartered.

[redkenny]

We'll see mate.

Although selling star players to stump up the £100m would decrease revenue from merchandise, devalue the club and have a negative impact on the pitch - three things the yanks certainly don't want while they have 'control' of the club. RBS practically own the club already.

[Brian78]

Would RBS taking control be a bad thing?

Yes

They effectively own the club as it is but if in the summer they call in the debts take the club over they dont want to run a football club they want there 100 million. Where will they get that from? Sell players. Quickest way to reach 100 million by selling players. Torres, Gerrard Masch, Johnson Reina. From the sale of any of those we dont get a penny to spend plus we have a weaker squad to compete with.

Proper fooked

[RedLFCBlood]

These two pair of leeches will do anything to ensure they make a profit from LFC if that means selling one or two players to pay off the debt that they have heaped up on us they will not lose one iota of sleep over it, they have bought us with borrowed money with very little or no capital outlay of their own, they are effectively using the money the club generates to buy the club.

By paying the 100 million to RBS they have gave themselves at least 1 more years grace to find a potential buyer for the club giving them a greater chance of making a better profit as the debt burden has been slashed by 100 million and thats why I believe they will start selling the silverware before they let their investment profit slip from their grasp.

[lfcinpa]

I'm confused about one thing here.  When Hicks and Gilette took out a loan to buy the club, how was it structured?  Did they not take the loan out in their own names?  It seems like they took the loan out on behalf of the football club.  How is that practice allowed?  It doesn't make any sense.

[JD]

Would RBS taking control be a bad thing?

I'm not sure whether RBS would take over or we would go in to administration. A 9 point penalty wouldn't be clever.

The only possible positive would be that another buyer could come in and purchase the club at a far more realistic price.

[MsTorres]

Im thinking we should get together and buy a hitman for these clowns!!!

You publicly say you will not put your own money into our club- and wonder why no-one likes u??!

They need to say something more along the lines of: "if we see a petition with more than 2million signatures on it, we will leave!"

I am glad this thread exists for people to read- we all need to be more clued-up on our situation!

[Ross]

Surely there must be a Red billionaire around!

[reddebs]

There is another potential spanner in the works that as yet nobody has brought up.

We have all mentioned at some point or another, either in this thread or others, that potentially players could be sold to pay down the debt.  Figures being discussed range from £30m for Gerrard, £50m for Masch or £100m for Torres, there are also the fringe players valued at between £1m to £15 that most of us see as surplus to requirements.

With all the media discussion about debt within football, not just here in England but all over Europe, the proposals put forward by EUFA about the financial status of Clubs playing in the CL and the fact that everyone is suffering with the credit crunch my question is this.

Will we actually get these valuations if the players are put up for sale?  After all these are valuations placed on the players after they had an exceptionally good 08/09 season where money in football was still silly.  

We all value these players highly but when money is tight and Clubs are wanting quality for a bargain price would Barca really fork out £50m for Masch, £100m for Torres when he's hardly played all season, or Inter pay £30m for Gerrard after his attitude this season.

It may be that the players are worth more to us staying than selling them at below their true value.

[HScRed1]

Maybe if RBS do call in the debts, does that mean the gov't will bail us out like the banks