Lost: Dressing room in the Liverpool area if found please return to Rafa

[racerx34]

Regardless of whether we agree on him being the right man or not. If the players doubt it we're on a hiding to nothing.
But is it Rafa or the owners who have caused our players to drift through games and where do we go to rectify the situation

[tezmac]

Undoutably Rafa the defensive tactics are wrong and this is the most boring football I haveever seen a Liverpool team play

[racerx34]

Three players I would have thought deserved runs out yesterday. Kyrgiakos, Aquilani, Pacheco

[hobbithead]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked. 

[LFC-Red]

Tough one.

Rafa has to 'shake things up' somehow and I believe it won't happen unless we get Gerrard back in the engine room alongside Mash. Gerrard's performances have been woeful but it doesn't help him that he finds himself playing on the periphial of matches. He's playing just behind Torres and if he is struggling to get service and into the game he'll become non-existant like he is now. His attitude is not helping and it maybe sheer frustration (similar to Torres' petulance) as to why their demeanour looks sooo dejected.

I'd stick him back into the hussle and bussle of things it may help him to buck his ideas up where things are a little more frantic. When he dropped back there recently he didn't have time to sulk and in fairness looked happier playing there. It's (IMO) his natural position where the play is infront of him and he can make those lung busting runs and get on the end of something. Also a crunching 50/50 tackle maybe enough to get the belly fired up. We need inspiration from somewhere and he's the man for it.

The manager needs to address this rot somehow and It isn't going to be easy, he must pick the players up and get the players believing in themselves again. The confidence is shot to pieces and usually when a beast has been defeated he usually comes back to bite harder. Go more cavalier, drop Lucas re-jig things a bit it can't hurt anymore than it is now. Feck me, bring Kenny in to have a chat with the lads, a bit of inspiration a few words of wisdom along with a re-jig and take it from there.

I'm really at a loss with the team at the moment and apart from putting the preverbial rocket up the a.rse of most players I'm not to sure what else Rafa can do. But I do know one thing, if he sticks with that same fecking team and we get the same kind of performance and result to boot I'll be fecking livid with him.

[racerx34]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked. 

Why... It's a valid question

[hobbithead]

Why... It's a valid question

I was being pedantic. 

Any criticism of the manager can sometimes be met with a lockdown.

[racerx34]

Tough one.

Rafa has to 'shake things up' somehow and I believe it won't happen unless we get Gerrard back in the engine room alongside Mash. Gerrard's performances have been woeful but it doesn't help him that he finds himself playing on the periphial of matches. He's playing just behind Torres and if he is struggling to get service and into the game he'll become non-existant like he is now. His attitude is not helping and it maybe sheer frustration (similar to Torres' petulance) as to why their demeanour looks sooo dejected.

I'd stick him back into the hussle and bussle of things it may help him to buck his ideas up where things are a little more frantic. When he dropped back there recently he didn't have time to sulk and in fairness looked happier playing there. It's (IMO) his natural position where the play is infront of him and he can make those lung busting runs and get on the end of something. Also a crunching 50/50 tackle maybe enough to get the belly fired up. We need inspiration from somewhere and he's the man for it.

The manager needs to address this rot somehow and It isn't going to be easy, he must pick the players up and get the players believing in themselves again. The confidence is shot to pieces and usually when a beast has been defeated he usually comes back to bite harder. Go more cavalier, drop Lucas re-jig things a bit it can't hurt anymore than it is now. Feck me, bring Kenny in to have a chat with the lads, a bit of inspiration a few words of wisdom along with a re-jig and take it from there.

I'm really at a loss with the team at the moment and apart from putting the preverbial rocket up the a.rse of most players I'm not to sure what else Rafa can do. But I do know one thing, if he sticks with that same fecking team and we get the same kind of performance and result to boot I'll be fecking livid with him.

I'm not sure if I'd go as far as that. Gerrard was good in CM against Everton when our backs were to the wall... but when it came to the creative element that was required for the role, as was the case against Blackburn, he came up short. If Aquilani can't fulfill this role, which I hope he can, we will need to invest in this area come the summer. Now that's where we all know the problems begin(players included) where is the money going to come from to pay off part of the loan and improve the squad...nevermind start building a new stadium. With Citeh investing 1bn in infrastructure alone for a new complex it would appear, as things stand, that our time in the Champions League and challenging for the Premiership are over...with or without Rafa. If I was Rafa I'd do an Alonso and head to Madrid for his mental and physical health... Unless substantial longterm investment can be found for the club this summer we will spend the next decade in mediocrity. Now how can Rafa alone be expected to rescue that situation

[JD]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked. 

Grow up.

Anyway...

The fans are enormously pissed off with the owners and have been for a couple of years now. Lot of bad feeling there.

The fans are pissed off with some of Rafa's tactics and substititons.

The fans are pissed off with the lack of character and effort being put in by the players.

The players are probably pissed off seeing their hard work last year failing to be rewarded by investment from the board.

Rafa's probably pissed off with the players for playing like soft shites.

Out of the whole situation the least sensible reasoning would be why the players would have lost faith in Rafa. It makes the least sense.  

I remember very well the last throws of Houllier's regime.  Here was a man who managed to get us 2nd in the league, was handed more money to go after the title and after a further 2 seasons - with the side playing to their capabilities - it became apparent that we didn't have the players.

The situation this time is totally different.

What I see is players severely underperforming.  That is never acceptable.  I should be able to manage that team and expect the players to perform.  Whether he has lost the dressing room is at the moment immaterial - the fact is that the 10 players on the pitch (I'm leaving Pepe out) are putting in sub-standard performances not just for the manager, but for all of us.

They're making a mockery of the values we hold close to our hearts, and the values and ethic of the history of the club.  

Certainly the mood on the terraces and from the boardroom down may be pretty sh*t - but those players are failing every single one of us.

[Fourbrick]

I was being pedantic. 
 

Did you mean sarcastic?

[RedLFCBlood]

For me as I have already said. Hypothetically If any manager has lost the dressing room, he has then lost the confidence of his players and he need to be let go.

How ever as I have already suggested Rafa losing the dressing room is purely speculation and until players come out and start criticising the manager his tactics then we will never know, that this indeed is the case.

People have suggested players attitudes and body language as to why Rafa has lost the dressing room again there could be many reasons as to why players are not showing the correct attitude/desire.

Could it be that now the chance of winning the league has passed by and were out of the champions league had a detrimental effect on the players,

Could it be that knowing we have nothing to play for, they have got their eye fixed fully on the world cup ?

Like I said earlier its all assumption and speculation and when you are speculating on such things, with no solid evidence, you can twist your assumptions to suit any argument.

How ever what is clear as people have suggested is we need a shake up and if that means Key players who are not performing get dropped and make way for some one who shows more hunger/desire then so be it, were hardly setting the world alight now, so one would believe things can not really get any worse.

[racerx34]

Grow up.

Anyway...

The fans are enormously pissed off with the owners and have been for a couple of years now. Lot of bad feeling there.

The fans are pissed off with some of Rafa's tactics and substititons.

The fans are pissed off with the lack of character and effort being put in by the players.

The players are probably pissed off seeing their hard work last year failing to be rewarded by investment from the board.

Rafa's probably pissed off with the players for playing like soft shites.

Out of the whole situation the least sensible reasoning would be why the players would have lost faith in Rafa. It makes the least sense.  

I remember very well the last throws of Houllier's regime.  Here was a man who managed to get us 2nd in the league, was handed more money to go after the title and after a further 2 seasons - with the side playing to their capabilities - it became apparent that we didn't have the players.

The situation this time is totally different.

What I see is players severely underperforming.  That is never acceptable.  I should be able to manage that team and expect the players to perform.  Whether he has lost the dressing room is at the moment immaterial - the fact is that the 10 players on the pitch (I'm leaving Pepe out) are putting in sub-standard performances not just for the manager, but for all of us.

They're making a mockery of the values we hold close to our hearts, and the values and ethic of the history of the club.  

Certainly the mood on the terraces and from the boardroom down may be pretty sh*t - but those players are failing every single one of us.

As always JD some valid points.
As you said... Houllier was rewarded with a proper transfer fund when we got second and bought poorly
                   Rafa was rewarded with............. no transfer fund when we got second and as a result resorted to a 5m upfront signing and the best of what Portsmouth had to offer seeing as they owed us millions for Crouch and Pennant.
The mood in the club is akin to having the best piss up in ages only to realise you woke up beside a minger ( dumb and dumber ) and she's pregnant. Plenty of suffering in the longterm.

Anyway I think the players have let us down lately. The attitude on display for the last two games was appalling. Here's the kicker... how on earth can it be turned around when even Rafa himself looks worn down by the whole thing...and who can blame him. Its impossible to win a war on two fronts... especially when one front controls what weapons you have to fight with

Could it be that now the chance of winning the league has passed by and were out of the champions league had a detrimental effect on the players,

Could it be that knowing we have nothing to play for, they have got their eye fixed fully on the world cup ?

How ever what is clear as people have suggested is we need a shake up and if that means Key players who are not performing get dropped and make way for some one who shows more hunger/desire then so be it, were hardly setting the world alight now, so one would believe things can not really get any worse.

I would agree with those points. I think right now Rafa has nothing to lose and could do worse than to throw Pacheco and Aquilani to freshen things up.. and put Amoo on the bench.. I still don't know why Kyrgiakos didn't start last night.. a given for me

[Toycel]

Gerrard looks as happy as Gary Glitter in an old peoples home. I remember when he used to lose the ball (not too often) he would make sure he won it back. The last 10 games he just sulks and doesn't even bother trying to get the ball back. Either, he's off in the summer  or he's realised he's never gonna win the Premiership. Rafa needs to change his tactics, thats clear to see. Teams just surround Torres and cut his supply off. The nearest player is always 40 yards behind him. I'm no tactician but surely Rafa isn't seriously going to stick to this formation. 15 Defeats shows its not working. Enough is Enough.

[bgwdivemaster]

I share the sentiments expressed so far.  Shake things up.  Throw Pacheco and Aquilani in there.  Make players have to earn their spots on the starting grid.  

We need a resurgence of different player talent to shake the squad up.

[Madscouser]

In terms of formation - drop Gerrard to play with Masch, Aqua boy in the gerrard role and give Lucas a rest.

Johnson as right mid (as he is not a full back) - giving Kuyt a break, Carra at right back - Kyrgiakos and Agger in the middle.

[Fourbrick]

In terms of formation - drop Gerrard to play with Masch, Aqua boy in the gerrard role and give Lucas a rest.

Johnson as right mid (as he is not a full back) - giving Kuyt a break, Carra at right back - Kyrgiakos and Agger in the middle.

Agree with everything except Carra at right back. It would be better with Kelly as right back as Jamie is now too slow to be in that position.

[Brian78]

If Rafa has "lost the dressing room" the best way to find it again is drop those who are amongst the lost. My suspects are Gerrard Carra and possibily Kuyt. Id be certain enough that Pepe Torres and Masch are with him

[HUYTON RED]

If Rafa has "lost the dressing room" the best way to find it again is drop those who are amongst the lost. My suspects are Gerrard Carra and possibily Kuyt. Id be certain enough that Pepe Torres and Masch are with him

It's safe to say most of the Spanish speaking players are with him!

Carra wants to get on bended knees to Rafa. How many times did Carra play centre-back under Houllier, he chose Biscan before Carra!

[hobbithead]

Did you mean sarcastic?

It's not healthy sticking a dictionary up your nostrils.  

The word I was actually looking for was Facetious. 

[eurored]

..... but those players are failing every single one of us.

and themselves JD.

They are wearing the red shirt.

[ORCHARD RED]

I can understand some of the players ( Babel, Aquilani, and a few others ) getting a little fed up not being able to get a run in the team. It might cause them to become disillusioned with the manager, but the regulars can't blame anyone but themselves for their poor attitude.

[red trooper]

Lost in the dressing room ....talent,skill ..and spine ! there must be a financial reason why Aquilani isn't playing surely? is it a case of every time he plays we pay ? at the moment we have not a lot to lose have we? so lets go for a big shake up now and 'rest 'certain players who aren't cutting it ! Insua, Kuyt, , maybe Rafa's dressing room talk should be backed up with wage cuts for those who don't give a sh*t ,

[Johncolf]

How has this club gone backwards so much in 12 short months , the two four goal wins against RM and the mancs made us the form team of Europe and the team to avoid in the champions league now look at us , we have reached the depths I thought I would never have to go through , losing two players ( Alonso &Arbeloa )should not disrupt a team as as it has done so something else has gone on , the ownership of the club is a whopper black cloud over L4 that was there when things were going well this time last year so what has gone so wrong , it can only be a lack of confidence in the management from senior players because I don't see them breaking sweat to pull us through this nightmare  , take last week losing two games against two very ordinary teams without a wimper tells it's own story , the season can't finish quick enough for me , the chance to finish fourth has gone and would only paper over the cracks anyway , finishing outside the European places my be the massive kick up the arse this club needs and force the issue one way or the other . Sick of the whole club from top to bottom . 

[LFC-Red]

I'm not sure if I'd go as far as that. Gerrard was good in CM against Everton when our backs were to the wall... but when it came to the creative element that was required for the role, as was the case against Blackburn, he came up short. If Aquilani can't fulfill this role, which I hope he can, we will need to invest in this area come the summer. Now that's where we all know the problems begin(players included) where is the money going to come from to pay off part of the loan and improve the squad...nevermind start building a new stadium. With Citeh investing 1bn in infrastructure alone for a new complex it would appear, as things stand, that our time in the Champions League and challenging for the Premiership are over...with or without Rafa. If I was Rafa I'd do an Alonso and head to Madrid for his mental and physical health... Unless substantial longterm investment can be found for the club this summer we will spend the next decade in mediocrity. Now how can Rafa alone be expected to rescue that situation

"Go that far" what switching Gerrard back into CM for Lucas is way too extreme in your opinion. Give me strength an under par Gerrard still offers 10 times more than what our 'Brazillian' does.

[SpionKop88]

IMO I reckon too many of our players have had their eyes transfixed on the world cup in the summer. The only people who are wanting to perform week in week out are Pepe & Masch. If the some of the squad were dropped for a game or 2, then it might give them the kick up the arse and they might actually think of Club before Country.

[racerx34]

"Go that far" what switching Gerrard back into CM for Lucas is way too extreme in your opinion. Give me strength an under par Gerrard still offers 10 times more than what our 'Brazillian' does.

My point is that neither of them perform the role adequately. Gerrard behind Torres has been our best pairing. Drop Lucas and put in Aquilani. I thought that point was clearly made not Lucas over Gerrard. Don't attribute a point to me that I didn't make