Lucas Leiva (Liverpool > S.S. Lazio)

Fair enough - tell me what I've posted, which wasn't amicable, or offended you and I'll promise not to do it again... apart from a differing opinion off course.

The whole forum can see you attempted to have a pop at Federer and you probably thought people would all back you because of his reputation? Your wrong as Federer is entitled to call Lucas one dimensional if that's what he thinks.  That's not being a troll or wum.

The whole forum can see you attempted to have a pop at Federer and you probably thought people would all back you because of his reputation? Your wrong as Federer is entitled to call Lucas one dimensional if that's what he thinks.  That's not being a troll or wum.

Fed deserves just about every "pop" he gets so lay off the feigned outrage there son. You should probably worry more about your "reputation" than trying to come to the defense of Fed's.

The whole forum can see you attempted to have a pop at Federer and you probably thought people would all back you because of his reputation? Your wrong as Federer is entitled to call Lucas one dimensional if that's what he thinks.  That's not being a troll or wum.

Oh dear. 

I can only think you haven't understood what was written mate; which should come as no surprise but I'll try to explain again.

* I attempted to bring Fed into the conversation by pointing out that his opinion on what was being discussed would be valued more if he stopped the name calling. [anyone who rated Lucas was a cock-sucker].

 * His opinion that Lucas is "one dimensional" (if you care to read back and try to understand what was written) is at the heart of what both Mick and myself were saying. I wasn't disagreeing or having a pop... far from it.

* Now given that Mick, myself and Fed were all in agreement that Lucas' "one dimension" is as a defensive midfielder I then asked Fed if the team would be better served [if Lucas were to play against Chelsea] with Lucas playing in that position rather than 'to the right of a diamond'.

* Still with me?

* Fed explained that although his [Lucas'] best position ["one dimension"] was indeed defensive he would still play him outside that one dimension.

* I found that strange as I felt playing a player out of position would benefit the team less than playing him in a role he's comfortable with. I asked Fed to explain.

* Fed couldn't and instead attacked Lucas which, coming full circle...

* Is why I bowed out as it seems Fed wanted to discuss something else - his hatred of Lucas. That is as I said (three times now) was "fair enough" but it wasn't the debate we were originally having when Fed first joined in.

I hope this clears things up for you. 

The whole forum can see you attempted to have a pop at Federer and you probably thought people would all back you because of his reputation? Your wrong as Federer is entitled to call Lucas one dimensional if that's what he thinks.  That's not being a troll or wum.

The word 'pop' is a massive understatement as opposed to the remainder of your comment which is unmitigated exaggeration.

edit: the word infamy is more applicable than reputation in this context.

I think among the arguments there have been a few good points made. Lucas is not the player he was, moving Gerrard to accommodate Lucas should be a last option (for some not even an option), playing Lucas out of his comfort zone exacerbates his problems Re lack of pace, creativity, goal threat and energy.  The problem for me is the alternatives don't exactly fill me with confidence either.

I do think Lucas has been over protected by some on here, but surprisingly not by the ones who have posted recently, who in the main have had a more balanced view imo.

I think if Sturridge is not fit Lucas will play, which for me is a worry, but better than the alternatives.

I think among the arguments there have been a few good points made. Lucas is not the player he was, moving Gerrard to accommodate Lucas should be a last option (for some not even an option), playing Lucas out of his comfort zone exacerbates his problems Re lack of pace, creativity, goal threat and energy.  The problem for me is the alternatives don't exactly fill me with confidence either.

I do think Lucas has been over protected by some on here, but surprisingly not by the ones who have posted recently, who in the main have had a more balanced view imo.

I think if Sturridge is not fit Lucas will play, which for me is a worry, but better than the alternatives.

Would you move him and the skipper Saint?

As I've said I don't see the benefit in swapping them as it could very well lead to Gerrard sitting back and the two of them playing in the same space again like earlier in the season.

The other option would be the ballsy one and to go for Alberto or Texiera with Allen and Coutinho but in a game of this magnitude I think Lucas, even playing out of position, gives us that bit more experience that may be vital

Gerrard

Alberto       Allen

Coutinho

Would you move him and the skipper Saint?

As I've said I don't see the benefit in swapping them as it could very well lead to Gerrard sitting back and the two of them playing in the same space again like earlier in the season.

The other option would be the ballsy one and to go for Alberto or Texiera with Allen and Coutinho but in a game of this magnitude I think Lucas, even playing out of position, gives us that bit more experience that may be vital

Gerrard

Alberto       Allen

Coutinho

I probably would mate... but very reluctantly. Wherever Gerrard plays he will do a good job, not sure the same can be said of Lucas. 

I feel like a poker player that has had a big win at the tables and wants to leave with their winnings, but I still have to play a few more hands .... I just want to play it safe.   

I am not sure Alberto or Texiera would have much impact and think they are a much bigger gamble than Lucas, Aspas or Agger would be.

I think all the crap Mourinho is spouting at the moment is just his usual mind games, I think Chelsea will be coming to win and Lucas is the safest option (not necessarily the best option) and much less of a gamble than the alternatives.

Chelsea's midfield have bullied plenty of teams this season, Matic is a beast of a player, he's big, strong and skillful. As much I also worry about Lucas's lack of mobility and ability as an attacking threat I feel it is important to match Chelsea from a ballz perspective and you can't deny he gets stuck in and doesn't shirk a challenge. We will need that against this lot because they typically outmuscle and strangle teams in the middle of the park.

I think Lucas must be on one of those famous FSG incentive-based contracts, where he gets more money each time he gives the ball away or makes a stupid foul.

He wasn't good today, but it's hardly surprising given Chelsea sat in and it was going to need something out of the ordinary to get through. I cannot think of a game which is less suited to Lucas's talents unless he plays as a DM, so I'm not going to be too critical. I wish (hindsight being a wonderful thing) BR had given young Texeira a shot off the bench, or even Alberto to replace the Brazilian.

It did demonstrate though that in no way shape or form should Lucas be in the team as anything other than a holding midfielder. If he's going to be cover for Gerrard then fine, but as anything else it simply doesn't work.

I wish (hindsight being a wonderful thing) BR had given young Texeira a shot off the bench, or even Alberto to replace the Brazilian.

oh.... interesting....

Come to think of it, if Sturridge is still out, then Rodgers should consider throwing Teixeira in.

He wasn't our worst player today, but he seems to slow our play down an awful lot. Missed Henderson in that role big time.

Not the kind of player you need when you have to break down a 10 man defense unfortunately, was surprised he started in all honesty. There was never any doubt that Lucas wasn't going to swap with Gerrard which effectively meant (IMO) we needed more creativity from the off in midfield.

If Sturridge was really unable to start, I'd have liked to have seen Aspas as part of a front three with either Coutinho or Sterling playing where Lucas was.

Like someone else said, we missed Henderson yesterday, his running and recent ghosting into the opposition's box would have given Chelsea something else to consider.

Not the kind of player you need when you have to break down a 10 man defense unfortunately, was surprised he started in all honesty.

Notable that Hendo was missing.  Number of times yesterday that Lucas could get nowhere near the box and you know that Henderson would have been in there.

Think it was a major difference.

Feel sorry for Lucas - after his early years at Liverpool and then he managed to win over all the boo boys - but it definitely looks to me like that he is going to be one of the many footballers who just never made a 100% return after a cruciate.

Notable that Hendo was missing.  Number of times yesterday that Lucas could get nowhere near the box and you know that Henderson would have been in there.

Think it was a major difference.

Feel sorry for Lucas - after his early years at Liverpool and then he managed to win over all the boo boys - but it definitely looks to me like that he is going to be one of the many footballers who just never made a 100% return after a cruciate.

100%

He's definitely not the same he was.
Had hoped against all logic he would be.
We missed Hendo's energy on Saturday.

Who knew it would be a Hendo red card that would
highlight the hole in our squad more than anything else.

Agree with you two lads above and there is no hiding that Lucas is not the same player this season.

Think he might go in the Summer.

He's just not up to the same tempo as the rest of the lads. He doesn't have the tenacity to press like Henderson/Allen, whenever he receives the ball he takes at least a touch more than he needs to and subsequently when we're looking to break up the field he completely slows the attack down. Just not the same player since his injuries I'm afraid, which is understandable considering the severity of them.

I'd rather we kept hold of him for next season tbh, there's no way on earth that Stevie will play 50+ games so if Lucas goes we then have to risk bringing someone in as cover who may not settle.

The alternatives are Joe Allen or Conor Coady to rotate with Stevie.

From the Chelsea game i think it is clear to see that our midfield has evolved in an attacking sense which has left Lucas without a real place in the starting 11. I was and still am a big fan of Lucas, his work ethic and his defensive style of play however as @bigmick has stated on many occasions he is not mobile enough to make the attacking runs we need.

When playing teams like Chelsea/Stoke those teams that just park the bus, its essential to have midfielders making runs into the box frequently but still be able to help defensively when needed, Henderson has it sussed in my eyes, Allen is getting there however Lucas is not. IMO he will be a good asset to have as a backup to Gerrard for next season as others have mentioned.

It's a shame really as before Lucas got injured against Chelsea he was playing brilliantly and doing what he does best braking up play, unfortunately Rodgers needs more than that from him now and its just not there.

He wasn't good today, but it's hardly surprising given Chelsea sat in and it was going to need something out of the ordinary to get through. I cannot think of a game which is less suited to Lucas's talents unless he plays as a DM

Still have to agree mate [even more so now]: sadly, he doesn't have the 'legs' or the guile to play further forward. Hopefully we've seen the back of that particular 'experiment'.

As others have pointed out, one injury, one suspension and the cost of not having quality 'replacements' is painfully obvious. Palace is a whole new game now on a lot of levels. Will we even see a diamond? I'm not so sure.

I think this may well be Lucas's last season as a Red.  Rafa loves the lad and will likely want to take him to Naples as he fits his more pragmatic tactics perfectly.  I also think BR would prefer a more dynamic CM who offers more in attack than what Lucas does.  Even as a CDM, he doesn't offer anywhere close to a similar range of passing that Stevie does, and I think this "quarterback role" is the model that BR wants to adhere to for our holding players moving forward. 

I think this may well be Lucas's last season as a Red.  Rafa loves the lad and will likely want to take him to Naples as he fits his more pragmatic tactics perfectly.  I also think BR would prefer a more dynamic CM who offers more in attack than what Lucas does.  Even as a CDM, he doesn't offer anywhere close to a similar range of passing that Stevie does, and I think this "quarterback role" is the model that BR wants to adhere to for our holding players moving forward. 

I'm no tactics geek Harry but reading up on what some coaches have been saying is that the 'DCM' type player in the Lucas model is not really required anymore.  So you could well be right, although personally I'd prefer him to stay one more season.

I'm no tactics geek Harry but reading up on what some coaches have been saying is that the 'DCM' type player in the Lucas model is not really required anymore.  So you could well be right, although personally I'd prefer him to stay one more season.

Depends on the style of play, but the way BR has us setup I don't think he fits into either the CDM (quarterback) role, or the CM (ball retention specialist / creative box-to-box type) role.  On the other hand, Rafa likes to set his teams up to have 2 deep lying CM's (a destroyer next to a deep lying playmaker).  Lucas would probably be a perfect fit for this setup in the destroyer role.