Brendan Rodgers (Liverpool -> Celtic -> Leicester)

Sorry for being late in getting back to you Luke - I've been up to my eyes. The truth is I'm not "attempting" anything; the similarities and parallels are clear and there for all to see: maybe you're just not looking in the same direction.

It's all about the end result [impact on the team] mate and as far as that goes there is absolutely no difference between "can't" and "won't": neither has an 'advantage' over the other.

That is: Luke Klopp and Bubby Rodgers are out for a dander. Both could kill a nice, cold, pint. They see a pub; the only one for miles. They call in only to find the pints are six, f**king, quid a piece. Luke Klopp can't pay - Bubby Rodgers won't pay - the end result?

No pints for either. 

As I said though Bubby, we choose not to pay where Dortmund couldn't pay so to say we're the same would be an injustice on Dortmund imo, if they had our resources they may choose to pay the £6 for that pint.

Or maybe... if you read what has been written... those players were seen as "A risk worth taking" at a low price, in a [business] model which also includes not overpaying for players? The objective of the owners [business] model - low financial risk, to optimise their return - does not sit comfortably with any known, successful football strategy.

A part of me [the cynical 'f**k these tards' part] would like to see some fans get their way - we get a new manager, who has to work under the same restrictions and watch on as he too fails to win the title. Maybe then (that part of me thinks), the penny will drop and those folk will finally, finally... call for a change of policy rather than the head of the boss but...

That would only be buying FSG more time. That would only mean that the team I love suffers for longer. So... I'll say only this: whether we keep Brendan or sign Klopp [the trendy choice], without a change of tack from our owners; neither will bring success.

'f**k these tards' really?

It's a fact that Klopp has delivered success on less resources than we have, both wages and net spend. Why would it be retarded to believe that he could have similar success under less restrictive conditions?

So rather than the 'trendy' choice the retards, as you'd call them, might actually have considered that while FSG's policies are completely flawed and would love nothing more than to change them there is an option that's only just presented itself which could bring success despite the flaws.

As I said though Bubby, we choose not to pay where Dortmund couldn't pay so to say were the same would be an injustice on Dortmund imo, if they had our resources they may choose to pay the £6 for that pint.
'f**k these tards' really?

It's a fact that Klopp has delivered success on less resources than we have, both wages and net spend. Why would it be retarded to believe that he could have similar success under less restrictive conditions?

So rather than the 'trendy' choice the retards, as you'd call them, might actually have considered that while FSG's policies are completely flawed and would love nothing more than to change them there is an option that's only just presented itself which could bring success despite the flaws.

I'd like to elaborate on a point you made here.  Klopp is trendy and players would want to come to us because they would want to work with this manager. It would send a good message out regarding ambition if we did land Klopp. He's as respected as much as any of our rivals manager.

Sack Brendan Rodgers??

Shooting the messenger was never more appropriate.

Liverpool transfers to be decided by committee, not Brendan Rodgers, claims Ian Ayre
Liverpool’s managing director, Ian Ayre, says all the club’s future transfers will be decided by committee rather than Brendan Rodgers being allowed full control of recruitment.

Is it any wonder we are going backward, Ian Ayre for fucks sake what an absolute waste of space I can see his next brief now (sell LFC) you know I wouldn't be a bit surprised if FSG are not gone by 2018.

As I said though Bubby, we choose not to pay where Dortmund couldn't pay so to say we're the same would be an injustice on Dortmund imo, if they had our resources they may choose to pay the £6 for that pint

Choose not to pay or couldn't pay, the result is the same - Jack sh*t.

'f**k these tards' really?

It's a fact that Klopp has delivered success on less resources than we have, both wages and net spend. Why would it be retarded to believe that he could have similar success under less restrictive conditions?

So rather than the 'trendy' choice the retards, as you'd call them, might actually have considered that while FSG's policies are completely flawed and would love nothing more than to change them there is an option that's only just presented itself which could bring success despite the flaws.

There is no indication Luke that the FSG method of operating would deliver anything but an ''also ran'' status, irrespective of who they employed in the role of coach, the system to accommodate their vision of an LFC business model is in place.
A change in that concept would involve dismantling the whole set-up, an arrangement realistically speaking that could only transpire if and when JWH&Co sell up and F**k off.   

There are plenty on here Mick who 'see things as they are' but still lean towards looking for a change.

I dont think its fair to label all those who see the possibility of change as idiots who don't see what goes on above the manager as well.

I ask you.

If FSG were never to change policy do we just automatically think no other manager could do any better?

How long do you just accept that the current manager is the best we could have under current constraints?

Like I said a few days back if FSG guaranteed to change policy in the summer and allow Brendan to buy 2 or even 3 top quality players that he sees we need then I'd happily go with Brendan for another season.

I highly doubt that will happen and my fear is, taking the three years into account, Brenfan may well have shown his peak under the current policy and we can expect more of the same and be in the same position next summer or, which is even worse, come Christmas time.

Not everyone who suggests the managers position is under pressure hasn't taken into account all the information at hand.

I'm not sure I am labelling those who want a change as "idiots" Si, I'm not sure I ever have. What I HAVE said, many times now, is that I totally get it why people want a change. I even went as far as saying that IMHO that particular debate is now done from my point of view, so please Si with the greatest respect can you and others stop making out that I'm dismissing other peoples right to an opinion, I aren't.

So to answer your questions.

1. If FSG were never to change policy do we just automatically think no other manager could do any better? Of course there's a possibility another manager could do better, I've said that many times. Equally there's a possibility he could do worse. BUT, IMHO he would be as I said in my post "up against it". As I've said many times, if that new manager (assuming people get their way and there is one) gets us into fifth next season, given the circumstances it would be unfair of us to label him a "failure". Fifth is about the limit of what we can sensibly expect IMHO, although no doubt me and others like me will be hoping/dreaming of doing much better. You never know, we might.

2. How long do you just accept that the current manager is the best we could have under current constraints? . I have no real idea who the best manager we could have under constraints is, although as I've said before if you change the manager over often while trying to develop young players, it's unlikely to be a good thing. Nobody could or can say with any certainty whether or not we'll do better or worse with an alternative manager, all we can do is put our best guess on it. I would have thought it's almost a certainty that if Benitez came we would do better in Europe, but other than that I don't think anyone could say for sure any which way. Naturally as I am in favour of keeping the manager my hunch is we'd do better with him at the helm, but obviously those who want him out take the opposite view. I totally get that, they are entitled to their opinion. It doesn't make them idiots. .

What I've been talking about over the last few days ISN'T ABOUT THE MANAGER. That's why I keep saying WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE in every post. My guess if we do get rid of Brendan to be totally truthful is that we won't get Klopp because he'll go elsewhere for bigger money, and we won't get Benitez because the influence of people like Ayre at the club who remember the last time will ensure it doesn't happen. Equally the owners will probably harbour some nerves that Benitez will galvanise the fans against them should they NOT spend big, and to be honest I suspect even his most avid fans would probably accept that is a distinct possibility. So if and when we do get rid of Brendan, we'll get somebody else who's currently not on the radar. It is still entirely possible that they'll improve things from where we are, but what I'm afraid of is that we finish fifth again next term under this "manager X" and the self same people are campaigning to get rid of him too. WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE will have their work cut out to get us into the top four, that is the big picture which I think some are missing.   

Choose not to pay or couldn't pay, the result is the same - Jack Sh*t.

There is no indication Luke that the FSG method of operating would deliver anything but an ''also ran'' status, irrespective of who they employed in the role of coach, the system to accommodate their vision of an LFC business model is in place.
A change in that concept would involve dismantling the whole set-up, an arrangement realistically speaking that could only transpire if and when JWH&Co sell up and f**k off.   

Branding one the same as the other isn't fair though and the end result isn't the same Stuey, Dortmund won plenty under Klopp so I disagree there.

As for FSG I've made my concerns about them known long, long ago mate, I'm not a fan of them or their practices but while we're stuck with them it's still prudent to try to make the best of a bad lot.

Brendan is still a conumdrum for me. I can't work out whether he's a good manager or not. Obviously on the back of this season there have to be doubts about him, but I still think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and another season.

One thing I don't blame him for is the transfer situation. I don't even particularly blame the transfer commitee tbh.
Our failure in the summer ( and Xmas) windows was not down to us signing a load of bad players ( Lallana and Can are both quality, and I still think Markovic will work out for us as well. I haven't even completely given up on Lovren and Moreno, although they are definitely doubtful). It was down to who we DIDNT sign - ie a proven 25 goal a season guy to replace Suarez/cover for Sturridge.

We failed to sign such a player cos of the owners policy of buying value-for-money "promising" players rather than proven top wage earners.
Both Brendan and the commitee were following this strategy, dictated by FSG. They just weren't going to go out and pay top dollar for a Benzema or a Cavani. Thats why we ended up taking a punt on Balotelli instead - he was a good value gamble, who we weren't gonna lose much on if he failed, and if he succeeded then he was a bargain.

I'm pretty sure Brendan was relieved when we signed Balo ( as were most on these boards, including me) cos up to that point - incredibly - it looked like we weren't going to buy anybody at all! It seemed that the owners were making ANY new striker dependent on the sale of Borini!

This is the strategy/mentality that Brendan is having to cope with, and it is easily the biggest reason why we have struggled this season.
So, yeah, I have my doubts about Brendan, but although he had big money to spend in the summer, he was basically not allowed to spend it on the very type of player that we needed the most. If he gets the boot, to me he will basically be the fall-guy for a failure from higher up.

Branding one the same as the other isn't fair though and the end result isn't the same Stuey, Dortmund won plenty under Klopp so I disagree there.

Wasn't comparing them mate, was pointing out not being able to buy and refusing to buy get you the same thing - nothing.
 

As for FSG I've made my concerns about them known long, long ago mate, I'm not a fan of them or their practices but while we're stuck with them it's still prudent to try to make the best of a bad lot.

Unfortunately you're right Luke, not really any other option at least while they don't resort to the F**k-uppery a la H&G.
What does rile me is these F***ing muppets labelled 'FSG apologists' who laud the owners for their own interpretation of success, irrespective of the arse falling out the team.

Give your arse a chance will ya.
At least use words in their correct context.

Sorry Chuey i couldn't make out that last post of yours. What is a "ya"

Or maybe... if you read what has been written... those players were seen as "A risk worth taking" at a low price, in a [business] model which also includes not overpaying for players? The objective of the owners [business] model - low financial risk, to optimise their return - does not sit comfortably with any known, successful football strategy.

A part of me [the cynical 'f**k these tards' part] would like to see some fans get their way - we get a new manager, who has to work under the same restrictions and watch on as he too fails to win the title. Maybe then (that part of me thinks), the penny will drop and those folk will finally, finally... call for a change of policy rather than the head of the boss but...

That would only be buying FSG more time. That would only mean that the team I love suffers for longer. So... I'll say only this: whether we keep Brendan or sign Klopp [the trendy choice], without a change of tack from our owners; neither will bring success.

You forgot to say " in my opinion but i don't know for sure".
When you talk of the players i mentioned as being a "low risk" financially to FSG, with a view to a substantial return. Who?
Ricki lambert?
Balotelli low risk for £16 million ? Seriously ?
Borini? We could of sold him for a profit, but didn't. But i'm sure we will  won't we?
Ah , guess i'm just not seeing this pattern were its all about making money and nothing more. Because on those 3 players alone , its  looking like a loss of maybe £22 million.
Maybe someone wanted those players. Now who could that be?

You forgot to say " in my opinion but i don't know for sure".
When you talk of the players i mentioned as being a "low risk" financially to FSG, with a view to a substantial return. Who?
Ricki lambert?
Balotelli low risk for £16 million ? Seriously ?
Borini? We could of sold him for a profit, but didn't. But i'm sure we will  won't we?
Ah , guess i'm just not seeing this pattern were its all about making money and nothing more. Because on those 3 players alone , its  looking like a loss of maybe £22 million.
Maybe someone wanted those players. Now who could that be?

You do know there's a game on right now?

Bit of support wouldn't go amiss.

Welcome to the debating room mate, thank f*** there's someone else who's seeing it for what it is. Sack the manager if we must, install someone else (please God let it be Benitez or the "through clenched teeth" brigade will have to pretend they're supporting the new bloke all over again), but unless we at the very least slightly alter POLICY, that manager is up against it.

I agree. I mean, just imagine the new manager coming in and being told he only has £212 million to spend over the next 3 yrs!  Klopp ( the trendy choice, for people who can't think for themselves) would simply shout " NEIN DANKE" and storm out. And who would blame him?

Here comes the next wave...

We might as well just copy all the posts from last Sunday and put them in again here to save everyone the bother.

This picture of Brendan practically sums the game up.

Here comes the next wave...

We might as well just copy all the posts from last Sunday and put them in again here to save everyone the bother.

True

Least Colin shaved his legs for the occasion.

You do know there's a game on right now?

Bit of support wouldn't go amiss.

Seriously? You calling what i just watched a game?

I agree. I mean, just imagine the new manager coming in and being told he only has £212 million to spend over the next 3 yrs!  Klopp ( the trendy choice, for people who can't think for themselves) would simply shout " NEIN DANKE" and storm out. And who would blame him?

Yes but but but it's not the amount of money its the evil transfer committee who force Brendan to buy players he doesn't want. Basically anything to avoid placing any responsibility at the feet of our perma tanned "best manager in the whole world" manager.

Dead Man Walking.

Damn it, he needed a win today to shut the trolls up. Staying far away from this page for at least a week, I don't have the stamina to deal with fair weather fans like GeorgeRed and littleface insulting the boss personally - it's like talking to a brick wall at times this thread!

"We created opportunities, our only downfall was taking those chances but that has been a problem over the course of the season. I thought the players were outstanding, their courage and play on the ball. Across the team there were some outstanding performances.

"We have a game in hand and we have to chase that and fight for that but if the players play like they did today nine times out of 10 they would win. We will take this confidence into the midweek game.

"We have to rely on other teams, but we can only do our job and that is still the plan."

I give up.

"We created opportunities, our only downfall was taking those chances but that has been a problem over the course of the season. I thought the players were outstanding, their courage and play on the ball. Across the team there were some outstanding performances.

"We have a game in hand and we have to chase that and fight for that but if the players play like they did today nine times out of 10 they would win. We will take this confidence into the midweek game.

"We have to rely on other teams, but we can only do our job and that is still the plan."

I give up.

Delusional.

Does himself absolutely no favours. Says there is nobody better to manage Liverpool Football Club, draws 0-0 to a mid table side and then calls the team outstanding.

A Liverpool manager shouldn't accept 0-0 draws with lesser teams, much less have the audacity to call the performance outstanding.

Really starting to lose faith.