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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      Neston_Red
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #115: May 19, 2013 12:10:06 am
      So I was watching a review of our season before which shown all our goals scored and also all the goals we conceded. As we all know, defending set pieces has been a major problem this season but I think the problem can be solved quite easily.

      Something I noticed from our defending of set pieces, is that we drop far too deep to start with, and then drop back even further when the kick is about to be taken. This causes you massive problems for two reasons:

      1. The opponent has a closer distance to make an attempt on goal from

      2. The keeper has trouble coming for the ball as theres too much traffic

      I was watching the Spanish Cup Final last night and Athletico had a few free kicks about 35-40 yards out. Real Madrid were consistently at least 10 yards forwards of the penalty box. Mourinho has drilled it into his players to do this. If you start this high up, you can afford to drop like we currently do, but in our current method our players end up on top of Reina.

      Worst case scenario from playing a high line from set pieces is that they win the header and try to score from about 20 yards out which is very unlikely. I think that if we employ the high line, our problem of defending set pieces will go.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #116: Jun 22, 2013 09:18:48 pm
      Thinking about our new signings, one thing above all has struck me (and I mean Coutinho and Sturridge as well here) and that is the way they use and exploit space, especially when making decoy runs.

      Now, in my opinion, Kenny was the best user of space that I have seen.
      Not just creating space, but actually forcing defenders into situations they didn't want to be in.
      I see similar examples when I look at Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho in particular.

      At the other end of the pitch, the best user and exploiter of space is Lucas. Watch how he is always looking to step up into space, or pass to a team mate to create that little bit of extra room, which in turn means that little bit of extra time on the ball. However, it's how he positions himself off the ball that is important.
      I'd go so far as to say that without the space that Lucas creates, Gerrard would be less effective in the deeper role he now plays.

      My point is that I see us moving in a direction that was the hallmark of our great sides.
      We've always had good players, but at times have relied on power a little too much.

      Our great sides could not only create space, but had the game intelligence to exploit it, and that's where I see us heading.
      I'm not making comparisons with our great teams in any way except one, and that is that the players BR has brought in, and the coaching he has done have had the effect of allowing our best players a little more time on the ball, and that makes all the difference if it is exploited preoperly.
      MIRO
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #117: Jun 25, 2013 12:14:27 am

      My point is that I see us moving in a direction that was the hallmark of our great sides.
      We've always had good players, but at times have relied on power a little too much.

      Our great sides could not only create space, but had the game intelligence to exploit it, and that's where I see us heading.
      I'm not making comparisons with our great teams in any way except one, and that is that the players BR has brought in, and the coaching he has done have had the effect of allowing our best players a little more time on the ball, and that makes all the difference if it is exploited preoperly.

      Shanks would have approved.

      Full circle.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #118: Aug 18, 2013 08:11:41 pm
      First game of the season over and an interesting one in terms of the tactics and formation used by the manager.

      I spoke eralier this summer about how I jope Brendan adjusts his side depending on the opposition and fully utilise the squad. Now I'm not one for overly worrying about who were are playing and do feel we should always be looking to impose our game on them but I do still feel we can mix up the team a bit to get the best of what we have in relation to what the opponents style and strengths are.

      We seen an example of this yesterday in how Brendan set up the midfield particularly when we didn't have the ball.

      On paper our team looked like this

      Lucas  Gerrard

      Henderson

      Aspas  Sturridge  Coutinho

      But as the game went on it was clear that Henderson's role was to sit wide right while we didn't have the ball, with Coutinho left and Sturridge and Aspas more centrally, but then we we were attacking he had the license to move inside when he could and join with the front three. Coutinho although playing left always was a bit further up the pitch than Jordan and did come inside more often to link up with the strikers.

      So in defense we shaped something like this

      Lucas  Gerrard

      Henderson                    Coutinho

      Aspas  Sturridge

      Which became more like this in attack

                  Lucas
                                       Gerrard


      Henderson

                                             Aspas  Sturridge  Coutinho

      It showed the versatility of the squad and more importanty the player, Henderson, as I expected Allen to play but the manager obviously looked at Stoke and seen that Jordan's energy and abilty to get around the pitch added to his more gritty style of play were much more suited to get a result than playing Allen in a midfield three.

      Impressive first outing from the manager for me and I hope to see more of this as the season goes on.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #119: Aug 18, 2013 09:32:05 pm
      Have only just caught up with the 2nd half of the game and also noticed how Henderson was playing on the right and I guess you could call it 4-4-2 but such was the movement of our players you couldn't really call it anything. You would traditionally expect a lone frontman to play high and to work the width of the penalty area but Sturridge (much like Suarez) pops up all over the place. throw in Coutinho and Aspas both cutting onto their stronger foot and also keen to get into central areas along with Henderson who does a nice job running beyond when the front players drop off and you've got a real recipe for success when we've got the ball with so many players playing between the lines and moving intelligently. There was a lot of good chemistry on show yesterday, we know that Coutinho and Sturridge are on the same wavelength but Aspas was also on the same page which was very encouraging.
      GERNS
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #120: Aug 19, 2013 12:38:07 am
      What will Brendan do next week against the Villa. Will he still keep a high line at the back, or will he expect our defence to drop deerper, to counter the longer ball with Agbonlahore using his pace. Villa will be on a high after their unexpected win at the emirates, and will want to use them same tactics all the time if they can. Who is the quickest of our defenders now? Agger? Enrique? Johnson or may be Toure now ? If we have no pace there, we'll have to drop deeper. Just my opinion though.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #121: Aug 25, 2013 10:35:36 pm
      Interesting stuff again from he manager in terms of tactics used against Villa.

      It carried on from last week's game with Henderson playing mainly from the right, especially when we didn't have the ball with Lucas ans Gerrard inside, Coutinho left and Sturridge and Asas up front. Aspas did move right more often than not when we were attacking with but defensively seemed more closer to Sturridge in the middle.

      It was almost a 4 4 2 in defense as many times especially second half we looked like this

      Henderson  Lucas  Gerrard  Coutinho

      Aspas  Sturridge

      It is also the most defensive I think we've ever played under Brendan and although we dominated the game for about 35 minutes form then on we dropped back, intentially or not, and invited Villa on to us. Villa being a naturally counter attacking side then had to try and force the game.

      I'm not sure how much of this was intentional or just happened as the game went on but by bringing on Cissokho to play on the left it did suggest there was an element of intent in this by the manager. I thought at the time he might have been trying to make a subtle point to FSG by making this move but maybe it was just how he seen us getting the three points.

      A different type of performance under Brendan but one in hindsight that looks like was a good move froma tactical and formation point of view.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #122: Sep 30, 2013 10:36:00 pm
      Although I'm a big fan of 3 at the back I'm not going to into it tonight as I do think that the three playing, Sakho, Skrtel and Toure are the three in form and give a very good balance to the defense and I'd be happy to see it continue for the forseeable future injuries permitting.

      It's more the three front player Brendan has used in the last two games.

      Now I don't think there has been anything drastically wrong which calls for major changes but I would like to see a subtle change which I feel may bring out the best of the three.

      Brendan has tended to line them up with Moses behind the other two like this

                                                                          Moses

                                                                  Sturridge   Suarez


      I just don't think Moses does his best work from here and I'd like to see Suarez move more centrally with Moses left side of the front two and Sturridge right side

                                                                          Suarez


                                                                  Sturridge    Moses



      Which can change to this with Luis ability to find space

                                                                    Sturridge  Moses

                                                                            Suarez


      Luis can both lead the line and use his energy to drop in when he feels it's needed while Daniel and Moses can stretch the play while he does this and give us the outlet up front. Luis is then free to link up and create with the midfield.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #123: Sep 30, 2013 10:54:33 pm
      I also think that would give Suarez the most space available to him and drag their CB's out from their comfort zones too Si, problem is whether Suarez is willing to do that for the team as he's less likely to score from there.

      Moves it on to P.D.'s point, is Suarez just in it for himself?

      Would certainly get more out of Moses but are you sacrificing too much of Suarez to achieve that goal? I don't think you are as he's currently our best No. 10 available too. Moses as the 10 just doesn't fit at all so I definitely see where you're coming from.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #124: Sep 30, 2013 11:06:56 pm
      I also think that would give Suarez the most space available to him and drag their CB's out from their comfort zones too Si, problem is whether Suarez is willing to do that for the team as he's less likely to score from there.

      Moves it on to P.D.'s point, is Suarez just in it for himself?

      Would certainly get more out of Moses but are you sacrificing too much of Suarez to achieve that goal? I don't think you are as he's currently our best No. 10 available too. Moses as the 10 just doesn't fit at all so I definitely see where you're coming from.

      I still would like to see a lot of interchanging between the three Luke but just feel we'd get a bit more from both Moses and Luis if we swapped their main position, or starting position if you like.

      Luis has that energy to get all over the front line and move back and link with midfield and pretty much does it every game anyway. Moses deosn't and is that bit more rigid so getting him a bit further forward and slightly left side shoudl bring out more in his game.
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #125: Sep 30, 2013 11:31:26 pm
      I think, if you are looking for that level of interchanging, then we revert to a front 4.

      Even then I don't think we can have a pure flexibility on it.

      For me Coutinho has to play the 10, he's perfectly suited to it.

      The part that interchanges then is the 3 feeding of his supply.

      Suarez    Sturridge    Moses

      Then it looks like a 4-2-1-3.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #126: Oct 02, 2013 10:21:39 am
      I think, if you are looking for that level of interchanging, then we revert to a front 4.

      Even then I don't think we can have a pure flexibility on it.

      For me Coutinho has to play the 10, he's perfectly suited to it.

      The part that interchanges then is the 3 feeding of his supply.

      Suarez    Sturridge    Moses

      Then it looks like a 4-2-1-3.
      be surprised if BR uses this away from home
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #127: Oct 03, 2013 02:35:16 pm
      The problem with 4-2-1-3 is the "2".


      I mean its like providing defence splitting passes for Jan Molby to run onto.
      In other words, I think Stevie and Lucas are struggling as the "engine room".


      My preference for teams is always:-
      Striker with pace and aerial ability eg old Torres, Dzeko etc.
      Link striker as the star of the show eg Suarez.


      One strong fast winger eg Ronaldo/Bale etc. (Altho ofcourse its more likely to be a winger of an Ashley Young level, or lower).
      A mobile wide midfielder who can tackle on the other side eg the Gerrard of the Rafa era.


      And a central 2 midfielders, both capable of tackling. A minimum of one capable of accurate long passing.
      Ideally one of whom can dribble, altho its not essential because the winger or wide midfielder could draw in.


      Ofcourse its often down to the indiv players who are available. But I feel that is the ideal balance.


      For the Rodgers team, I think an interrim solution is looking like wingbacks and a back 3.
      andymac7565
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #128: Oct 04, 2013 08:18:31 am
      Football is not Chess
      This is 90% bullshit

      99% of footballers couldn't understand 99% of any of this frankly
      Can you see Suarez Coutinho Moses & Sturridge crouched round a i pad
      trying to work out what their supposed to be doing! I din't think so.

      You buy top players because they are top players you don't buy them then
      tell them how to do it. They know how to do it that's why you bought them.

      This is football not chess if it was chess as many people would turn up to watch
      it as turn up to watch chess.

      The players are players they are men not machines you buy/nurture the best then
      put them on the park in or as close to there best position and let them do there thing.

      Making out that formations are what wins games is total nonsense players doing what
      they do wins games.

      Formations are for defenders when they are defending formations are NOT for attackers
      They do there sh*t and we can't do that sh*t that's why we love 'em..
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #129: Oct 04, 2013 10:03:03 am
      Football is not Chess
      This is 90% bullshit

      99% of footballers couldn't understand 99% of any of this frankly
      Can you see Suarez Coutinho Moses & Sturridge crouched round a i pad
      trying to work out what their supposed to be doing! I din't think so.

      You buy top players because they are top players you don't buy them then
      tell them how to do it. They know how to do it that's why you bought them.

      This is football not chess if it was chess as many people would turn up to watch
      it as turn up to watch chess.

      The players are players they are men not machines you buy/nurture the best then
      put them on the park in or as close to there best position and let them do there thing.

      Making out that formations are what wins games is total nonsense players doing what
      they do wins games.

      Formations are for defenders when they are defending formations are NOT for attackers
      They do there sh*t and we can't do that sh*t that's why we love 'em..


      One of the most intelligent commentators I've seen was Jimmy Greaves. He said that when he played, managers werren't obsessed with tactics. It was more about "either you can play or you can't" ie there was a lot of responsibility on the player.


      The nothing repulses me more than those idiots on Rawk etc(generally American/or plants) who are obsessed with stats and "regression analysis" etc. They fail to realise that statistics, and so many tactical ideas will always be a simplification.


      My view is that top teams need quality players. To become a quality player takes years and years.


      I think the blend is important with a team. Sports science, squad depth, coaching, training, organisation, all play their part. But often coaching (of the British variety) takes out the ingenuity, the flair and creativity from a player and a team. In fact, I would sometimes say, the "soul" of a team.


      So people love the Ratboy Neville and Carragher thing on Sky. Obviously as former PL defenders they know about stuff. But both are very "traditional British" in their outlook. The discussion that I've seen is very British defender-centric (as you'd expect). They talk about keeping tight, numbers, offside etc.


      But the fact is, there is another aspect to the game. The attackers side. Tactically, the player who fascinated me the most ever was actually Ronaldinho. The Howard Willkinsons would swear blind "he is a natural" and not even bother to analyse what R does. To me, that is the biggest failing of the game in Britain.


      Ronaldinho had 40 or so moves designed to deceive defenders, he would practice them almost like martial arts routines. For instance, shuffle the ball to the right with his heel , drag the ball back with the instep, flick to the right with the outside of the foot and then run forward. Each move had become so instinctive, the defender rarely had a change. So move 1 was to beat the defender, and Ronaldinho was already on the 2 or 3rd stage eg beat another/defence splitting pass/ shooting.


      Someone like Kenny doesn't just see 2 lines of players. He sees gaps in the defence flickering open the closing. He sees the backheel that no one else could imagine. He sees a slow defender hoping the angle will be closed off for a defence splitting pass. Or he might see a defending team realise they can only keep closing down at pace for another 5 minutes.


      A good manager gets the blend right to allow these players to constantly test the opposition.
      A good manager knows that if openings are worked properly, a Suarez, Torres or Sturridge will have an opening where he is virtually unplayable.


      So yes, I agree with you that defenders concentrate on tactics. But top creative players see challenges and opportunities, much more dictated by flair than by disciplined adherence to rules.


      The top players can cost vastly more than the top defenders. Because they can do so much more. To entertain and to get wins.

      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #130: Oct 04, 2013 10:03:36 am
      Football is not Chess
      This is 90% bullshit

      99% of footballers couldn't understand 99% of any of this frankly
      Can you see Suarez Coutinho Moses & Sturridge crouched round a i pad
      trying to work out what their supposed to be doing! I din't think so.

      You buy top players because they are top players you don't buy them then
      tell them how to do it. They know how to do it that's why you bought them.

      This is football not chess if it was chess as many people would turn up to watch
      it as turn up to watch chess.

      The players are players they are men not machines you buy/nurture the best then
      put them on the park in or as close to there best position and let them do there thing.

      Making out that formations are what wins games is total nonsense players doing what
      they do wins games.

      Formations are for defenders when they are defending formations are NOT for attackers
      They do there sh*t and we can't do that sh*t that's why we love 'em..

      That's a very naive thing to say mate.  Of course players understand this or at least the ones with 'game intelligence' do.  Some of it is natural instinct but a lot of it is taught, regardless of the age, experience or quality of the player.

      To say that a manager/coach just picks the best players, plays them in the right position and let them get on with it is laughable.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #131: Oct 04, 2013 10:17:35 am
      That's a very naive thing to say mate.  Of course players understand this or at least the ones with 'game intelligence' do.  Some of it is natural instinct but a lot of it is taught, regardless of the age, experience or quality of the player.

      To say that a manager/coach just picks the best players, plays them in the right position and let them get on with it is laughable.


      But often we are talking about semantics rather than the actual application.


      I mean compare the rigid systems of Hodgson to the fluid systems of the Dutch. I think thats what Andy is saying.


      We can talk about 442 or 433, but depending on the player, the 2 could be exactly the same.


      Playing someone in the right position is a big issue for a manager. Assembly the right 11+subs is also a biggie.


      Remember a fulltime player absorbs a huge amount of learning just in training and looking at the vids. It shouldnt be a classroom type situation, but a natural, evolutionary learning process. The basis, I think, should be developing skills. Not some regimented, doctrine laden type stuff. Thats what I understand to be the difference between "football and chess".


      I'm also rather concerned at the concept of someone like Luis Suarez being told what he's doing wrong by Colin Pascoe, Mick Marsh and to a lesser extent by Brendan Rodgers.


      It was interesting to hear Lawro talk about Bob Paisley. Lawro said that Bob would sometimes do talks (in his quiet Geordie voice) and he said that the players would often say "what the hell is he on about with xyz". I think what lawro meant was that the training from Bob was fantastic. The balance of the team and the players were too. When they got on the pitch, the whole routines were inbuild and totallly fluid. But ultimately, it was the players taking responsibility on the pitch.


      So, I took that as saying Bob was giving them the chance to be in control on the pitch. (And Bob's great talent as a manager allowed them to do that) Which to me, is the opposite of the English FA school of thought.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #132: Oct 04, 2013 10:19:09 am
      On tactics, I always think of the saying


      "Put the ball in the net, then we'll talk about the options later"..


      It sounds simple. But there is a reasoning to it, I think.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #133: Oct 04, 2013 10:27:59 am
      I mean compare the rigid systems of Hodgson to the fluid systems of the Dutch. I think thats what Andy is saying.

      But to play the fluid Dutch systems the players still need to understand the system.  They need to understand their role in the system and the role of everyone else on the pitch.  The manager also needs to recognise when the system isn't working and make the necessary changes that the players also need to understand.  If this isn't coached/trained then the players haven't a clue and look like headless chickens.

      Even the amazing Barca team of a few years ago were made to look ordinary when they came up against an organised, well drilled defensive team  ;)
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #134: Oct 04, 2013 10:56:40 am
      We done so well under Rafa Benitez because of his tactical acumen.

      To say they don't matter or are irrelevant is ridiculous.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #135: Oct 04, 2013 11:04:56 am
      But to play the fluid Dutch systems the players still need to understand the system.  They need to understand their role in the system and the role of everyone else on the pitch.  The manager also needs to recognise when the system isn't working and make the necessary changes that the players also need to understand.  If this isn't coached/trained then the players haven't a clue and look like headless chickens.

      Even the amazing Barca team of a few years ago were made to look ordinary when they came up against an organised, well drilled defensive team  ;)


      But the Dutch system is allow the players to take the initiative, in my view. The manager's role is to select the blend, and train those player's up. Its not a rigid tactical doctrine. Its fluid and relies on skills, not English style rules and restrictions.


      Coaching and training are vital. But coaching skills out of a player is a crime. And obsessive rules kill teams. To me, think Howard Wilkinson vs the Dutch. Tactical rule extremism vs  freedom of skills.


      I mean Wilkinson won the league once, but Christ, if I was a player I'd hate it. For example Tomas Brolin was one of the most gifted passers in Europe (tho not exactly a combative dynamo) but Wilkinson wanted him to play like a total 80s style workhouse. The results were disastrous.


      I think the Barce team is a little overhyped in some ways. It has its own tactical extremism in that it can too much passing around without the incision. Some of that is dictated by the players available. I mean Ibrahimovich didnt work out. And Eto wasnt really replaced. The top Germans have really trememdous players.But their system rarely creates creative superstars in the way Brazil and Argentina have.


      I think the Spanish system worked fine for tournaments... with those players.


      But the Barce teams (Messi aside) lack some of the incisive flair of various other teams. And this has shown in their defeats on occasion.


      Yes, tactically centric teams CAN beat player centric teams. But I think the best teams over time are player centric ones. The best German tactical centric teams, to me, are actually player centric. BUT, the strength of those players is their athleticism, discipline, tactics etc. Rather than the expressive Total Football Dutch/ Brazillian style flair. If you follow my meaning.
      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #136: Oct 04, 2013 11:06:26 am
      We done so well under Rafa Benitez because of his tactical acumen.

      To say they don't matter or are irrelevant is ridiculous.

      To be fair it also helped that we had a lot of top players under Rafa too. Gerrard at his peak, Hyypia, Hamann, Carra, Masch, Alonso, Torres, Reina. Sadly we could never get a strong enough squad or the one or two extra top quality players to finish the job.

      Obviously tactics make a difference , but for me I think 11 great players with average tactics will more often than not beat 11 average players with great tactics.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #137: Oct 04, 2013 11:18:19 am
      We done so well under Rafa Benitez because of his tactical acumen.

      To say they don't matter or are irrelevant is ridiculous.


      I dont think anyone would say tactics are irrelevant. I think tactics ARE vital. But where I differ from Wilkinson and the FA, is that I think ultimately ie on the pitch, key responsibilities should be left with top quality creative players. Its like musicians/actors, who can be taught and coached throughout their role, but need to put on their own sense of style.


      A Wilkinson says that individuality must be subjugated to the tactics. Kevin Kevin (too extreme the other way), just wants players to bomb forward and forget any form of discipline.


      I wanted to mention Rafa in a separate point, because he is a tactician par excellence. He's my favourite manager and not just because I consider him to be our modern day "spiritual leader", along with Kenny.


      Rafa's training regime, player selection and understanding of the game are utterly fantastic. But I think where he differs from the traditional FA approach is that he allows players to take the initiative. Whether it was Riise bombing forward, Xabi controlling from the middle, or Stevie in the free role. Where discipline was required, he got the right man for the job - Masch, Carra etc. And where a player fu**ed it up - Riise, they were shown the door.


      So to me, he got the blend right. And he could educate the players to enhance their own natural skills.
      Whereas a Wilkinson seeks to suppress individual talent, IMO.
      Remember Rafa wanted Momo to develop his passing and moving forward play. So while he was an obsessive master tactician, he was also very player-centric, which is my view on all this.


      The Torres Rafa team was a great golden era of ours, albeit only on the pitch. When you think he took a fairly average Ged team and infused some incredible talents. He always talked about how he'd have liked a top winger and a "disequilibriante" (eg a number 10/Suarez etc). That would really have been the icing on the cake. But he said how there were few top ones about, and they were also v expensive. So the money went on Xabi, Masch, Nando and Pepe. Wonderful players who he could trust to perform with their own initiative alongside Gerrard.

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