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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #299: Jan 20, 2014 01:22:18 pm
      This formation can only work with good full backs that can provide width in attack and defend. Currently with Johnson and Cissokho this isn't possible as both are poor in both attack and defence. It might work with this team once Flanno and Enrique are back from injury but for now it's a no go.


                             Mignolet

      Flanno      Skrtel         Sakho   Enrique

               Henderson Gerrard   Allen

                          Coutinho
             Sturridge            Suarez

      Until we can play that team I would go with...


                             Mignolet

      Johnson      Skrtel         Sakho   Cissokho

                     Gerrard   Allen
                                          Hendo
       Sterling
             Sturridge            Suarez


      Meaning Coutinho is dropped until we have good enough fullbacks to accommodate him.

      I agree mate that better full backs are needed for the system to work to its best, but Kelly and Johnson should be able to do a job until either we buy better or Enrique is fit again.

      Just to be clear I have nothing against Sterling, I just believe Coutinho is the better option, especially with the return of Sturridge.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #300: Jan 20, 2014 03:31:06 pm
      I'm not really a tactics geek but I thought the point of having a squad, rather than a 1st team is so when the need arises the manager rotates.

      What I mean is the manager decides on a formation or certain tactics based on the analysis of players fitness, opposition set up blah blah blah.  The whole point being that every players has certain strengths that need to be utilised.

      Playing all your best players at the same time in the hope that they gel is quite frankly schoolboy stuff, not the methods of a highly rated and highly paid professional coach.

      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #301: Jan 20, 2014 06:49:02 pm
      I'm not really a tactics geek but I thought the point of having a squad, rather than a 1st team is so when the need arises the manager rotates.

      What I mean is the manager decides on a formation or certain tactics based on the analysis of players fitness, opposition set up blah blah blah.  The whole point being that every players has certain strengths that need to be utilised.

      Playing all your best players at the same time in the hope that they gel is quite frankly schoolboy stuff, not the methods of a highly rated and highly paid professional coach.



      :D

      That is no doubt true 'Debs, but as supporters not Managers and Coaches, we like the simple life where you have an opinion on what is our best team and then which players should fill in when your best players are suspended or injured. 

      After all in a thread like this we can't discuss who should play and what formation or tactics we should use against a particular team or against a particular formation..... that's what the match thread is for?

       
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #302: Jan 20, 2014 06:56:15 pm
      :D

      That is no doubt true 'Debs, but as supporters not Managers and Coaches, we like the simple life where you have an opinion on what is our best team and then which players should fill in when your best players are suspended or injured. 

      After all in a thread like this we can't discuss who should play and what formation or tactics we should use against a particular team or against a particular formation..... that's what the match thread is for?

      I know mate, I'm just a bad loser (even though we didn't lose) it still fells like a loss so my mind goes off on crazy tangents to try to make sense of things  ;D

      It's a woman thing  ;)
      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #303: Jan 20, 2014 07:09:48 pm
      I know mate, I'm just a bad loser (even though we didn't lose) it still fells like a loss so my mind goes off on crazy tangents to try to make sense of things  ;D

      It's a woman thing  ;)


      I don't think it is a woman thing 'debs, while I think it is understandable in supporters, I think we should expect better of a manager than as you say "Playing all your best players at the same time in the hope that they gel "

      Feels like a loss to me too, but I just get angry.... maybe that's a man thing  ;)
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #304: Jan 20, 2014 07:20:02 pm
      I don't think it is a woman thing 'debs, while I think it is understandable in supporters, I think we should expect better of a manager than as you say "Playing all your best players at the same time in the hope that they gel "

      Feels like a loss to me too, but I just get angry.... maybe that's a man thing  ;)

      Absolutely mate.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #305: Jan 20, 2014 07:55:15 pm
      There was some excellent debate from Carra and Neville on MNF tonight with regards to 4-4-2. I hate the bloody formation in the modern game and properly slated it at the weekend but obviously a few people pointed out that City have played it for much of the season and we've seen Tottenham have a bit of success with it since Sherwood came in.

      - Maybe our players don't fully understand their roles in the system? Neville showed a graphi of average positions over the first 30 mins on Saturday and it showed us as playing a 4-2-4 with Sterling and Coutinho both playing way to high and wide (a point for the Gerrard bashing "he'll never play the holding role and there's the proof" brigade to consider. Clearly our wide players didn't seem to grasp that when we lose the ball they need to play narrow and for the overall shape of the side to be compact (Rafa's favourite word!)

      - Beacause 4-4-2 was THE only formation in England for so many years you kinda assume that everyone will be familiar with it but then you look at youngsters like Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, Henderson etc and you figure that they all steeped in 5 man midfields, lone strikers, wingers who double up as proper forwards and holding midfielders who simply hold.

      I'd rather we didn't but if we do play 4-4-2 again then perhaps Brendan needs to spend more time with the players going over their roles, patterns of play and most importantly the shape of the side when we lose it.
      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #306: Jan 20, 2014 08:23:27 pm
      I said straight after the game that I thought we played more 4-2-4 than 4-4-2 Scott, but I thought it was actually part of Brendan's tactics rather than players not knowing how to play a system.

      Certainly when Brendan asked Coutinho to drop deeper towards the end of the first half, he seemed to know what was expected of him.

      My only real confusion is the formation in the second half and why we would go to a back three having Cissokho as the spare man .... maybe because he was the only left sided player available?

      In all honesty I think it was a mess from a formation and tactical point of view made worse by the injury to Lucas which restricted any further changes.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #307: Jan 20, 2014 09:59:22 pm
      I said straight after the game that I thought we played more 4-2-4 than 4-4-2 Scott, but I thought it was actually part of Brendan's tactics rather than players not knowing how to play a system.

      Certainly when Brendan asked Coutinho to drop deeper towards the end of the first half, he seemed to know what was expected of him.

      My only real confusion is the formation in the second half and why we would go to a back three having Cissokho as the spare man .... maybe because he was the only left sided player available?

      In all honesty I think it was a mess from a formation and tactical point of view made worse by the injury to Lucas which restricted any further changes.



      Yeah it was a messy affair all around and Brendan's comments after the game suggested he thought as much himself as he seemed to blame himself afterwards. Hopefully he will learn from it moving forwards and we might revert to our previous set up. Important that we do so, even if it meant leaving Sturridge on the bench.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #308: Jan 22, 2014 03:37:11 pm
      I think most of us agree that the tactics and system used against Villa was as much, if not more so, the probelm as playing Gerrard as the DM. I expected the team to be as it was, in fact it's the side I was wanting to see, but the way the manager lined up and the tactics, or lack of, used in the first half left us wide open to a pacy Villa midfield and forward line.



      This is how I seen us in the first half and although Henderson did get around the pitch more than a static tactics board can show he still was far too often found too far away from Gerrard. Also with Coutinho and Sterling playing as wide men, albeit Phil tucked in more, they also played far too far forward to offer any support to the midfield and left Villa with too much space to play and they targeted Gerrard and used this weak link to get at our back four.

      When Lucas came on in the second half he played as the DM but Gerrard as the next midfield player played a lot closer to Lucas and they along with Hendo worked a lot better as a unit and gave us more presence in the middle of the pitch.



      This gave Villa less space to play in and while the performance second half was still way off us at our best the players and system used gave us a better platform to stop them playing and get our own game going which was lacking in the first half.

      Moving forward and if the manager is to continue with Gerrard as the DM then he has to play a midfield three around him to allow Stevie the space to play and to give him a platform to try and dictate the game from. While I thought Coutinho was going to play alongside Hendo just ahead of Gerrard at the weekend I'm not sure it's the best way forward in the coming weeks and maybe Allen and Hendo in the midfield three with Gerrard will give us the best basis to impose our game on the opposition while also keeping us compact enough not to be outplayed as we were at Villa.



      While I think Sterling would be unlucky to lose out one of him or Coutinho has to, in my opinion, to give us the best balance in midfield and attack. I just feel Phil's link up with the front two is more useful than Sterling's pace and he may be a good option from the bench. Also having Sturridge back gives us the pace and ability to stretch the play which is something Sterling gave us while Danny was out.

      Obviously the LB and left CB positions will change once Sakho and Flanagan get back from injury but as of now I feel this is the best use of the players we have available and is how I'd like to see us go into the game against Everton next week.
      « Last Edit: Jan 22, 2014 05:31:59 pm by srslfc »
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #309: Jan 23, 2014 06:50:10 am
      There was some excellent debate from Carra and Neville on MNF tonight with regards to 4-4-2. I hate the bloody formation in the modern game and properly slated it at the weekend but obviously a few people pointed out that City have played it for much of the season and we've seen Tottenham have a bit of success with it since Sherwood came in.

      - Maybe our players don't fully understand their roles in the system? Neville showed a graphi of average positions over the first 30 mins on Saturday and it showed us as playing a 4-2-4 with Sterling and Coutinho both playing way to high and wide (a point for the Gerrard bashing "he'll never play the holding role and there's the proof" brigade to consider. Clearly our wide players didn't seem to grasp that when we lose the ball they need to play narrow and for the overall shape of the side to be compact (Rafa's favourite word!)

      - Beacause 4-4-2 was THE only formation in England for so many years you kinda assume that everyone will be familiar with it but then you look at youngsters like Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, Henderson etc and you figure that they all steeped in 5 man midfields, lone strikers, wingers who double up as proper forwards and holding midfielders who simply hold.

      I'd rather we didn't but if we do play 4-4-2 again then perhaps Brendan needs to spend more time with the players going over their roles, patterns of play and most importantly the shape of the side when we lose it.

      Thought this myself, either way Rodgers was still wrong to do what he did imo but I wonder whether the lads went out there and executed what he actually asked of them.
      yacster
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #310: Jan 25, 2014 10:25:06 pm
      Given our available players its likely that we ll go
      Mig
      Flanagan skrtel toure cissokho (kelly unlikely to play twice in 3 days)
      Sterling gerrard henderson moses
      Suarez sturridge

      I think moses maybe picked ahead of coutinho as he ll track back more. Suarez likely to be asked to pressure defenders and sturridge play slightly further ahead.

      I wish sturridge would get deployed on the right but I think that is a position sturridge has left behind.

      Will be tough but at least hibbert hasnt played much, coleman cant bully cissokho and mccarthy and barry didnt get rested today.

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #311: Jan 30, 2014 06:49:05 am
      I was thinking about the Everton game and the notions of pressing and being compact and how they're at odds they are with each other to an extent; but still can be used alongside one another depending on the phase of play and the back line. Anyone is welcome to correct this analysis as they see fit, or if they think I have a misconception as these are purely my own thoughts.

      It should be noted that by and large during the Everton game and unlike the Villa one, we were compact which saw us surrender territory and possession to Everton but made it very arduous for them to break us down. It also saw us spring a number of devastating counter attacks too and as a side point it helped out our two central midfielders more, as there weren't acres of space; unlike what we saw in the Villa game.  The space just wasn't there often enough for Everton to exploit.



      Now, the pressing side of the game which Rodgers has often talked about is good IMO at certain times/phases in play but it can leave you vulnerable or even deemed suicidal if the players pressing don't over turn possession.

      Now, there were instances in the Everton game (similar to Spurs) where we did press but I'll be honest and say I only really noticed it when the back line was higher up the pitch, like this:



      In the picture for argument sake, say we had both Henderson and Coutinho pressing their DM, in the final third. If their DM finds one of his own players ahead of him which is as much a probability as it is with Hendo and Coutinho successfully retaining possession we suddenly become stretched. Now, it doesn't matter if it is Gerrard, Lucas or Didi Hamman the lone DM for us is exposed and has ground to cover and almost impossible angles to cut off in order to intercept an attacking pass, or through ball.

      Add to this we now have a high defensive line; which at the time of the opposition DM making a successful forward pass they may tend to drop off a bit and look like this:



      With Hendo and Coutinho out of play now, Gerrard (or any DM) is exposed and will find it hard going to cut off angles and cover ground, in short we're stretched. This kind of thing has happened to us a lot, more so last year under Rodgers when the pressing game was dominantly used, and more recently against Villa where the system was IMO too fluid for it's own good.

      The more I'm writing and thinking about this, the more I'm seeing negatives in the pressing system (from a defensive aspect) in comparison to a compact system. If the pressing pays off which sometimes it does, from an attacking aspect it's an opportunistic battle won that immediately puts the opposition on the back foot.

      I
      t obviously matters what the phase of play is that determines whether we press or retreat back to a compact system - a system we very much saw under Rafa and Houllier - a system that saw us concede very few goals in relative comparison to what we see with Rodgers.

      If it's a phase of play where the opposition have the ball pretty much anywhere in their half we may indeed press, our defensive line will be higher obviously but if that press fails, we're open and can't get men behind the ball. This happened only a couple of times in the first half if IIRC with Barkley getting a fierce shot of with his left foot. After that we pretty much had men behind the ball and played more compact which saw us keep a clean sheet in the end and tbh we never looked like conceding once this system was deployed.

      The game was helped too by the fact that it wasn't a typical 'blood and thunder' type derby in the sense it was scrappy. Both teams tried to play the ball and the passing was excellent given the pace it was at. However, I think this played into our hands and to our strengths as we were able to control the game in the first half with the ball. Everton tried this too but we were simply better at it and had better attacking threat. We also controlled the game without the ball more so in the second half with the use of the compact system, Everton couldn't open us up. The system helped Gerrard out, as it would any midfielder - even Hamman was a DM in a compact system and though plaudits rightly went to him, Henchoz, Babbel and Hyypia for our miserly defense, the plaudits should also go to the system we implemented back then - the deeper compact one.

      It is a conservative approach but it's an efficient one I think, as opposed to the more expansive system that uses pressing as a means to over turn possession.

      However, can the two be used simultaneously (yes, I think they can) but whenever you press without success, you'll find that this obviously negates the compact system of getting men behind the ball because the opposition have broke through your midfield.

      Another question to ask maybe then: Does the pluses of the pressing game (winning possession high up the pitch and in turn start an attack) outweigh the negatives of being exploited and played through, while having no chance of compacting the team to defend against the opposition?
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #312: Feb 04, 2014 04:39:27 am
      Quote
      The mistake we made was (as has been suggested) playing a bit too deep. I would have like to have seen us press higher up the pitch. when we did it tended to work and they didn't have all that much to offer in terms of pace on the counter, at least nothing we couldn't deal with. 

      Just pulled this out from the post match thread against WBA - Scottbot's post.

      We did stand off WBA a bit. I found it was hard to tell how deep we sat as the game was so scrappy that it made Sunday mornings down the local park look professional, and the ball was up in the air swinging to either side for the most part.

      It did appear that the lads looked indecisive regarding how to go about this game from the off. I suppose when you go a goal up in a game that is scrappy and isn't being controlled by either side, the instinct of the team will be to sit back and play more compact. And in fairness I could have seen us seeing out that game with a deeper line if it hadn't have been for our own blunder. But Scottbot's post here is plausible too, we could have probably pressed them higher as they didn't have the attack to exploit; an option we didn't persist with, and who knows what the outcome of that would have been.

      To press or not to press?
      s@int
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #313: Feb 12, 2014 03:43:17 pm


      Liverpool Triangles



      Bayern Munich triangles
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #314: Feb 12, 2014 07:18:56 pm


      Liverpool Triangles



      Bayern Munich triangles

      Good job they didn't copyright those triangles mate, Brendan could be in serious trouble if they did  ;)
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #315: Mar 18, 2014 10:49:57 pm
      We must have played. Just about every formation in the game for a period this season  it i have to say I have been very impressed with the introduction of a midfield diamond these past two games. It seems the boss has been searching all season for a way to get Suarez and Sturridge playing centrally together. We played 3-5-2 for a time with varying success, we tried a flat 4-4-2 which pretty much bombed and more recently they have been taking in turns dropping into defensive position when we lose the ball (more Luis than Danny tbf) but The gaffer seems to have found the solution with the diamond.

      Not only has it enabled us to play with our two star men up front it also seems to have brought some defensive solidity with Henderson and Allen playing narrow and giving us the legs in the middle of the park. Luis and Sturridge both have licence to roam and young aster.ing has brought a new dimension playing as a number 8. Both Jonno and Flanno are providing the width And behind them all the Skipper has been imperious in the holding role.

      I think we'll play this set up for much of the remainder of the season, particularly the away games.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #316: Jul 28, 2014 06:02:45 pm

      This is exactly what I want to see more of this season. I think Gerrard will be pressed more often than last season, so I feel the #10 role will be the key. We're gonna need either, Coutinho or Sterling to drop deeper to collect the ball and attack those spaces inbetween their defense and midfield, thus creating room for Gerrard, or for the #10 to take the conductor role, which I feel only Coutinho can do.

      Without the #10, I can't really see us retaining possession as often as we would like to, and would be more rooted to the counter attacking game.
      Benito
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #317: Aug 26, 2014 12:33:24 am
      Fresh new squad, lots of different options. This is how I see the squad evolving:

      Current:
                                  Mig
         Johnson    Skrtel        Lovren      Moreno
                 Gerrard   Henderson     Allen
          Sterling                               Coutinho
                               Sturridge

      Re-vamp:
                                 Mig
      Manquillo    Skrtel         Sakho     Moreno
                  Henderson             Can
       Sterling                                  Markovic
                       Lallana
                                  Balotelli

      Future:
                                 Mig
      Manquillo    Skrtel         Sakho     Moreno
                                Can
                Henderson      Lallana
        Sterling                          Balotelli
                             Sturridge
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #318: Aug 26, 2014 09:59:56 am
      Looks like we have quite a few options for formations and personnel now.







      bazspeedman
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #319: Aug 26, 2014 11:00:15 am
      Looks like we have quite a few options for formations and personnel now.









      And that's not even including Allen, Flanno, Sakho, Cou and Suso.
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #320: Aug 26, 2014 11:02:54 am
      And that's not even including Allen, Flanno, Sakho, Cou and Suso.

      No, but that's a quality subs bench we've suddenly got.
      Kubee
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #321: Aug 26, 2014 11:12:40 am
      I'd like to see:

      Quick Reply