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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #322: Aug 26, 2014 11:17:06 am
      I feel we may have to drop Gerrard every now and then in the pl, to get the best out of our midfield.


      Markovic     Lallana        Henderson       Sterling 

                                          Or

         Lallana       Can        Henderson         Sterling

      With Gerrard


                Markovic                           Sterling

                          Henderson   Lallana

                                     Gerrard

      But this means we have to play a lone striker, imo which limits us as Balotelli and Sturridge would be better playing together.

      Or

      Lallana                    Sterling

            Henderson     Can   

                       Gerrard
                                 
      But this would mean dropping Markovic, who I think is going to be a real talent, id rather see him start week in week out.

      In hindsight I see a 4-4-2 diamond with Markovic, Lallana, Henderson and Sterling as our strongest line up,  Gerrard isn't as mobile as Hendo and I reckon Hendo could give us a much needed kick up the ass when needed with his engine. I am not saying he is to be dropped every game because he is effective in most parts in his anchoring role but for games id like to see that midfield four with a diamond shape, Henderson slightly deeper than Lallana and Markovic and Sterling out wide with Mario and Danny up top.


                 Balotelli         Sturridge

      Markovic         Lallana         Sterling

                              Henderson

      Moreno        Sakho     Lovren       Manquillo

      Chop n change Gerrard/Henderson/Can.
      Kubee
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #323: Aug 26, 2014 11:22:41 am
      I feel we may have to drop Gerrard every now and then in the pl, to get the best out of our midfield.
      How would dropping our best midfielder help to get the best out of our midfield?

      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #324: Aug 26, 2014 11:24:17 am
      How would dropping our best midfielder help to get the best out of our midfield?



      Because he's 34.
      His legs won't last forever and he will need to be protected for the rest of his career.
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #325: Aug 26, 2014 11:24:58 am
      How would dropping our best midfielder help to get the best out of our midfield?



      Because our "best midfielder" as you put it won't be able to cover the defence week in week out.

      He won't have the stamina or the energy to keep at it and seeing how high our full backs get he needs to do a F**k load of covering and if you think Gerrard can do that for all our PL games then good luck to you.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #326: Aug 26, 2014 11:34:15 am
      It always confuses the hell out of me coming into this thread.

      I either don't understand the game, don't know our players, don't see how Brendan is trying to get us playing or the pretty pictures don't explain what posters are wanting to show.
      Kubee
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #327: Aug 26, 2014 11:36:23 am
      Because our "best midfielder" as you put it won't be able to cover the defence week in week out.

      He won't have the stamina or the energy to keep at it and seeing how high our full backs get he needs to do a f**k load of covering and if you think Gerrard can do that for all our PL games then good luck to you.
      Tbh this argument gets brought up every season about Gerrard. He's managed 36 and 34 league games in our last 2 seasons. Furthermore, he won't have international football to worry about so he should have plenty of opportunities for rest. So I'm fairly confident he'll be able to play a similar number of games to last season

      FWIW I do actually agree that he may need to be rested during certain games, but I disagree with the notion that our midfield is better without him in it. It's more a case of 'getting the best out of Gerrard' than 'getting the best out of our MF' for me.
      stuey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #328: Aug 26, 2014 11:37:16 am
      Because he's 34.
      His legs won't last forever and he will need to be protected for the rest of his career.

      So patently obvious it is bound to make you doubt the credibility of anyone who queries such a decision.
      Credit to yourself mate 'cos I wouldn't be arsed explaining the point.
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #329: Aug 26, 2014 11:40:40 am
      Tbh this argument gets brought up every season about Gerrard. He's managed 36 and 34 league games in our last 2 seasons. Furthermore, he won't have international football to worry about so he should have plenty of opportunities for rest. So I'm fairly confident he'll be able to play a similar number of games to last season

      I actually agree that he may need to be rested during certain games, but I disagree with the notion that our midfield is better without him in it.

      And last season was his first In the anchoring role. He wasn't perfect in the position and at times left  us exposed, I think he plays the role well but not consistently due to his fitness.

      To the notion of a better midfield without him, I am stating we can't have him play week in week out because he would limit our midfield, so I'd prefer Henderson/Can/Gerrard one of the three to play the role and it interchanging every now and then according to competition or opposition or merely form.

      But to have Gerrard in that position for the majority of our games for me wouldn't help get the best out of our midfield/defence.
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #330: Aug 26, 2014 12:01:25 pm
      So patently obvious it is bound to make you doubt the credibility of anyone who queries such a decision.
      Credit to yourself mate 'cos I wouldn't be arsed explaining the point.

      I think some people are still stuck in Stevie 05 Mode.

      It happens to all players eventually.

      Parallels can be drawn, like it or not, with Bryan Robson at United.
      Not exactly the same. Robson was 7. Cantona got that and Robson got 12.
      Keane arrive (16) and that was effectively the end of Robson's time at United.

      Gerrard has already been dropped back from the role he played behind the front man.
      Sterling/Lallana/Coutinho will no doubt fill in that role.

      So now he plays the deepest midfielder, with Henderson and Allen/Lucas in the 3.
      Remains to be see how Can develops, but if he does we could swap to a 2 in certain games.

      I am, of course, talking over the next couple of years.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #331: Aug 26, 2014 01:20:01 pm
      It always confuses the hell out of me coming into this thread.

      I either don't understand the game, don't know our players, don't see how Brendan is trying to get us playing or the pretty pictures don't explain what posters are wanting to show.

      You want us to explain the offside rule to you Debs? :f_tongueincheek: ;D
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #332: Aug 26, 2014 01:25:28 pm
      You want us to explain the offside rule to you Debs? :f_tongueincheek: ;D

      WARNING: Srslfc just engaged in some friendly banter with reddebs. :D


      yacster
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #333: Aug 26, 2014 01:30:54 pm
      I have been feeling sick since 6pm yesterday. I have hardly talked to the wife since and didn't help with childcare this morning before work. On the plus side I have thought through some of our issues and hopefully life will go back to normality now.

      1. GK; I am not a huge Mignolet fan but he needs better competition. He is simply not concerned about Brad Jones. This is something we can sort out before the window shutting for a relatively small amount of money.

      2. Fullbacks; Moreno will be our left back for sometime and needs time to settle. He is perhaps less good defensively than our right back options (Manquillo and the much missed Flanagan), but is superb going forward. All 3 goals came through the left side yesterday. If we only have Manquillo fit on Sunday Sakho will have to start at left back though.

      3. Central defence; given that Agger/Skrtel, Skrtel/Sakho, Toure/Skrtel, Lovren/Skrtel partnerships have all had their criticisms, that Toure is not going to play week in week week out, that Lovren is a left centre back, and that Sakho will leave if he doesn't get to play soon, Brendan has his work cut out. His two options are to ask Lovren to play RCB as he is right footed, alongside Sakho, or perhaps try 352. We have the fullbacks now to play 352 and if would also enable us to play Ballo and Sturridge in their correct positions.

      4. Midfield; this is a crucial element in protecting the defence. Whatever you think of Gerrard the reality is we have not brought in anyone to replace him immediately. Can may do in time but he is not yet ready. There is an obvious example of how to fit a Gerrard type player in a successful midfield, and that Pirlo with Juve and Italy. A midfielder in his mid 30s with superb passing and set pieces. He has Vidal alongside, a box to box midfielder. You could argue Henderson is an equivalent. But he also has Pogba, a beast of a presence. Lucas isn't mobile enough anymore. Either we bring in someone, which is unlikely at this stage, or we ask Can or Allen to do this. Obviously serie A is a less physical league but Italy got to the euro finals by protecting Pirlo with the likes of Verrati and Di Rossi.

      5. Attacking midfield; whichever formation protects your defence and fits in Sturridge and Balotelli is going to means that several of Lallana/Coutinho/Sterling/Markovic get benched, particularly if you want a stable 11 as much as possible. Unless your attacking midfielder presses and tracks back enormously (only sterling can do this home and away reliably, Lallana might, Coutinho does this better at home) it's hard to accommodate too many.

      6. Forwards; I'd imagine unless injured Sturridge and Ballo will start most games, with Lambert an excellent plan B so far. they will occasionally have to play in the wide positions and interchange and when they do they will need to support the fullbacks.

      with this in mind; our best starting 11 is probably

      Mig
      Manquillo, but Flanagan for the tougher away games
      Lovren Sakho if BR moves Lovren to RCB
      Moreno
      Gerrard, Allen Henderson (Lallana or Coutinho for Allen against the easier teams but need to be track back)
      Sterling, Balotelli, Sturridge

      or with a 352
      Mig
      Manquillo
      Skrtel Lovren Sakho
      Moreno
      Gerrad Henderson Sterling
      Ballotelli and Sturridge

      but we may have a problem against Spurs as we ll only have one full back fit and Ballo may not be fit yet, so you re looking at Sakho and Manquillo for Johnson and Moreno , and either the same other players as started yesterday or a diamond with Lambert playing instead of Coutinho...

      Can and Markovic need to get used to the PL gradually.

      I really hope we don't end up mirroring what spurs experienced last year after selling their best player although we do have a far superior manager. Unless everyone blends in quickly I really do think that this year is about maintaining our champions league status although I won't be surprised if we have an amazing season like last season. There were just moments last year that reminded me of that horrible Hodgson experience at the Etihad when we had just sold a great south American to Barca...
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #334: Aug 26, 2014 01:48:00 pm
      You want us to explain the offside rule to you Debs? :f_tongueincheek: ;D

        :rasp:

      The rules I'm fine with Si it's people's interpretation of how we set up and play that confuses me.  I guess I just see things differently.



      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #335: Aug 26, 2014 01:49:59 pm
        :rasp:

      I guess I just see things differently.





      We all do debs. That's the beauty/frustration of football. :D
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #336: Aug 26, 2014 01:57:49 pm
      We all do debs. That's the beauty/frustration of football. :D

      I reckon it's cos I watch so many Academy games mate.  To me the U21s is the blueprint for how Brendan wants the 1st team playing, especially how the fb's, midfield and attack play.

      We're getting there with the new signings but it's going to take probably another season or two before we see the full transformation.

      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #337: Aug 26, 2014 02:10:31 pm
      I reckon it's cos I watch so many Academy games mate.  To me the U21s is the blueprint for how Brendan wants the 1st team playing, especially how the fb's, midfield and attack play.

      We're getting there with the new signings but it's going to take probably another season or two before we see the full transformation.



      I don't think we'll see full transition until a few more of the older players move on.
      There is a lot of energy required to play the way Brendan wants for 90 minutes.
      We managed 40 last night.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #338: Aug 26, 2014 02:19:19 pm
      I don't think we'll see full transition until a few more of the older players move on.
      There is a lot of energy required to play the way Brendan wants for 90 minutes.
      We managed 40 last night.

      That's kinda what I meant with the timeframe mate.  The same happened early last season, great first halves then faded badly.  We improved as the season wore on but we were let down with poor alternatives off the bench.

      We won't have that problem this season but we'll still have a slow start.
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #339: Aug 26, 2014 02:27:13 pm
      That's kinda what I meant with the timeframe mate.  The same happened early last season, great first halves then faded badly.  We improved as the season wore on but we were let down with poor alternatives off the bench.

      We won't have that problem this season but we'll still have a slow start.


      I expect something similar.
      Then hopefully Mario, Lallana and Markovic run rampant. :D
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #340: Aug 26, 2014 02:30:13 pm
      I expect something similar.
      Then hopefully Mario, Lallana and Markovic run rampant. :D

      This is true mate, speed freaks all these new signings  :D
      saille29
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #341: Oct 13, 2014 08:09:49 pm
      Don't know if this is the right place to post this but it's been bugging me!
      How come we have only played one game at 3 o'clock on a Saturday this season(we are 1 for 1 in American lingo)  yet again we play this Sunday does anybody know if any other teams are in the same position
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #342: Oct 13, 2014 08:14:07 pm
      Don't know if this is the right place to post this but it's been bugging me!
      How come we have only played one game at 3 o'clock on a Saturday this season(we are 1 for 1 in American lingo)  yet again we play this Sunday does anybody know if any other teams are in the same position

      Curse of being popular.

      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #343: Oct 21, 2014 10:57:46 am
      I've pinched this from RAWK as I feel it goes a long way to explaining why we're not playing very well and gives more "technical" reasons for players taking time to gell.  As it states at the start of the piece, it's written before the QPR game so if you relate it to what happened in that game, it kind of makes you go "oh yeah!"  Or at least it did with me.

      Given that the QPR game is just hours away, and we are still missing crucial pieces of our playing template to injury (Dan, Dejan, Flanno) and we have players with mixed fitness programs coming back from injury, previous knocks or fatigue (Allen, Can, Markovic, Skrtel, Glen & Sterling), we should be very realistic at this point in the season.  High expectations are good and necessary, but can create unrealistic mentalities.

      With disparate parts, players still trying to regain form/fitness, and new lineups, we might expect from the get-go for there to be some struggles with continuity, communication, and getting on the same page.  This leads to the first suggestion.

      Psychological Response - We need a mentality that ignores frustration
      For perfectionists in football whose goal it is to press, dominate the ball, and to recognize/expose opportunities to circulate/penetrate the opposing team's final third, we set ourselves up for disappointment, especially as Greg/GrStv have pointed out that we were striker centric last year.

      The fact that we do not have someone to stretch the defense, thus creating space underneath for a Coutinho/Sterling is an issue which is exacerbated by the typical movements of Balotelli (coming towards the play rather than drawing players away from it and getting into the box).  Also, our combination play, cyclic runs by either one/two forward fronts has changed a great deal.  We have become much more reliant in our first few games on the flanks.  This has served us well when we press the ball and win it (as Moreno, Sterling and more recently Lallana) are finding dangerous spaces.   But, our lack of continuity in the final third is an issue.   We see this clearly, when we attempt hopeful service that is easily cleared or a cross with no runner or when we fail to really make defenders make choices.

      The latter is the most crucial in our system.  It has been relatively easy to play against us (recently) if you are a centreback.  The number of decisions has not really been stressful, in turn we less effective pressing or and creating opponent turnovers from the back.  In many ways against WBA, if not for our midfield Henderson/Gerrard, we would not have had the quality opportunities to score.  I am sure this is a problem Rodgers is currently working on.

      Nevertheless, when you combine our personnel issues, with a lack of practice time working on combination play in the final third, and our team's nature to dominate the ball and opponents, and our history of fast starts/last year's goals, we have a recipe for disappointment and frustration when not scoring which runs through the entire stadium all the way to the ball boys.  We are still finding new ways to win games, and it is imperative that we overcome this frustration as an important part of this team's growth.  We do not want to learn this in some European capital in the eliminations stages of the Champions League.

      For the players and supporters, we need to overcome this tendency of immediate gratification in scoring type of mentality.  While, it certainly would not hurt to score more,  the potential frustration from not scoring as much needs to be ignored and fought through without wasting time, energy or perspective.  This is a presumably temporary scenario (as RH cannot F**k up too much more in the following months I hope).  As such, this should be treated as a learning opportunity -----> i.e. how do we stay positive, keep working and create chances.   Some here might suggest this is what they are getting paid to do.  Fair enough, but the way BR wants to play, pressing, movement and circulating the ball all over the pitch to probe and exploit weaknesses takes a toll on the players.  And most invisibly, it takes a toll on their psyche.  Already very mentally strong players (the lot), the first thing that goes when a team gets tired is their communication, field of vision, and their ability to control emotions.   

      *** We need to be sure to save our energy for the task at hand and worry about the outcomes later, especially during this period in our team's development - youth, injuries, form issues abound.  This is how to get the best out of players mentally.  Mistakes happen, move on and prevent them from growing into team errors.

      Tactical Response - Set play desire

      Teams have studied our tendencies and adjusted to us pretty well so far. In most games, our opponents have not been punished for sitting in and allowing us to circulate the balls on the periphery.  It is here that I must say that I definitely do not have a template for future Liverpool tactical success.

      However, what I have seen ratcheted up in our first few games is the importance of set plays to our future outcomes.  By scoring less, we put more pressure on other areas of the game to score.  And we seem to have periods where we turn off.   This could be due a whole variety of issues --- tuning out a singular voice, lack of training time, new roles/position within the defending restart zones, or this group of players has not yet developed a restart identity yet.   I tend to think it is all of the above.

      As a result, another very important way to get the most tactically out of players is better execution on both sides of the restart battles.  It has been my experience that this is an "isomorphic" process where the actions of one can affect (parallel) the actions of another.  In other words, defending is contagious.  What happens to one part of the zone, affects others as well as player movements into them.  The culture of defending set plays is vitally important to avoiding mistakes, as it is so easy to tune out, or mirror a poor recovery decision.  It is a building blocks type of process.  There should be a mentality where they set goals.  The next 30 corners, we give up nothing.  Everyone is invested, knows their role, and knows their assignments/danger target.  IMO, this would get the best out of us.  Maybe, this is going on at present, and BR is working on individual/group video analysis to address these goals, but more attention needs to be paid.

      On the other side of set plays, our offensive desire for the ball is fine, but we are either off on the service or fail to take our chances (besides Gerrard's brilliant Everton goal).  This may be a case of goals tending to occur in bunches last year, when confidence is high or a certain tactic is repeatedly exploited.  But we need to recapture some urgency in this area.  If there is one thing that could give this entire a lift is getting a couple restart finishes.  It leads to opening up the space in the run of play and serves as victory in the 1vs1 battles that occur in the game.  New patterns, runner combinations or mixing up service angles might do the trick for corners.  Skrtel to the near post might be a good idea, but could be overdone.  Getting Lallana more involved should be a priority as well.

      Technical & Fitness response -  pace and decision-making

      It seems to me that we have become too reliant upon Sterling and Henderson's work rate at times.  If we look back at what worked well against Tottenham, we pressed as a team effectively, not just a few players but movement in unison with an appetite for the ball.  In a few of our losses, we looked a step slow in reading the play, or pressing it late.  Even the first 40 minutes of Man City away, we could see our collective defensive growth until the Moreno error (team).  Defending in packs is what made us so effective in the initial stages of the counter last year, this is something we can replicate.  However, for a variety of reasons, we have not embraced this weapon as much as we could have in the first part of the season.  One excuse might be that this is a post-world cup year and fatigue/injuries increase.  However, this is an excuses and rectums narrative --- everyone has one.

      As time has progressed over the early part of the season, there has been more pressure on certain players to work harder without ball than others.  Even though Henderson might appear immune, this type of mental wear and tear manifests itself in the decision-making of the player (see Stevie's G classic about Raheem going from Ricky Villa to Ricky Gervais).  This too is contagious.  Playing safe or the typical pass or trying to thread a pass that does not exist (Coutinho).  It is a long season, and the way we play is well suited for the players we have, no doubt.  However, one of the issues that gets the least amount of discussion (imo) is how fatigue is affecting our decision making with the ball as we penetrate into the final third.

      Now, Brendan has talked about personnel adaptations, get Balo into the box more, and circulating the ball quicker to exploit spaces, but as Allen, Can and Lallana get re-integrated into the squad, I would expect to see a more consistent team defensive pressure without the ball leading to much quicker more adept decisions when we get the ball, amplifying our pace and stealth.

      Kick the sh*t of the Rangers tomorrow!   Avoid allowing restart goals, get on with finding flow in the offensive half (i.e. fight through frustration) and work together to create a more even team oriented work load! 
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #344: Oct 21, 2014 07:30:26 pm
      Thanks for posting that Debs, they make some good points although not explained in the most simplistic way!

      Certainly raises some good points with regards to our. Pressing of the ball (when compared to last year), the relative ease for opposing centre-halves when compared to last year and our failure to stretch teams out thus affording our ball players the pockets of space they need to operate in.

      I'm afraid it does all point to The purchase of Balotelli doesn't it. I felt he got an overly tough time in the match thread on Sunday, it was a bit o.t.t for me even if I could understand the sentiment. But it is clear that playing him as a lone forward is having a HUGE impact on how we play.

      The main problems as I see it are:

      - He is easy enough to mark, he likes the ball into feet and as suggested in the post, he tends to come towards the ball quite often (although not all the time). To be fair he does work the channels BUT he isn't much of a threat once he has the ball in those areas, not compared to a Sturridge or a Sterling.

      - Balo is a strong player but he doesn't bully defenders, not like a Drogba. He has got the physique to do it but it doesn't appear to be in his game. Just look what Zamora did to our CBs at the weekend, he terrorised them. I don't think Balo has the mentality to do the same.

      - The next issue is that he likes too many touches, it's a case of get the ball under control, then get his head up and then decide what to do with it. The impetus is often lost by this point. I don't think it is a lack of awareness because there are times when he displays excellent vision but it seems to be the way he plays the game. It is almost the anti-thesis of our play last season when everything was 1,2 or 3 touches at most.

      - Lastly the impact Balo has on our pressing game. I actually think he works quite hard, he has generally put a shift in BUT it still isn't enough is it. He will always be compared to Suarez who was not the only one of the most skillful and dangerous players in the world but also possibly the hardest working.

      So what are the solutions?

      If Brendan is dead set on continuing with the Italian he surely has got to partner him with someone. It can't be Borini, not for me, not talented or skillfull enough and it would leave us with two players who do Not pose a threat in terms of running at players and taking them on (you have to have that). So surely it has to be Raheem? He's quick and skillful, will play on the shoulder and stretch teams out. He is a strong little bugger, he can finish and he will work hard in he press. We actually looked the part against Tottenham earlier in the season playing a diamond with Studge and Balotelli up top, it was in this game that we all recognised the physical presence of Balotelli freeing up some space for Studge (who had previously looked poor in the two games vs City and Saints.

      As for the Madrid game, the diamond might be a risk given the ability they have on the wings so with this in mind perhaps we are better off playing Raheem up there on his own?

      I must admit it does strike me as some muddy thinking from the gaffer in terms of our transfers. We were all set to get Remy, a player who was mobile, not as skilful but he offered a threat in behind, could play on the shoulder and had pace. We also have Lambert who was clearly brought in to give us a different type of player, someone who could dominate in the air, play with his back to goal, bring others into play and a classic target man (albeit with more guile and skill than he is given credit for). Remy represented a replacement (albeit a poor mans version) for Sturridge so it made perfect sense. Balotelli is unfortunately very similar to Lambert in many ways, they can't really play together and a very much like for like. It means that without Studge we will always struggle to replicate the style of play that was so successful last season. I'm struggling to get into the managers thinking on this one to be honest.

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