Tactics geeks of the world unite...

Was gonna start a new thread, but it's probably easier to just lash it in here about the evolution of us as a football club.

Reading the earlier pages of this thread, it shows most people wanting one genuine forward and a couple of others pissing about on the wings. But suddenly after last year's heorics of having two up top, that's the way we have to go for most people. In fact Brendan is being slaughtered for only going with the one up top. So have we evolved that much within Brendan's time that we've gone from something like this

1
2 5 6 3
4
8 11
7    10
9

To this;

1
2 5 6 3
4
8 11
10
7 9

So have we evolved into a side that has to play two up top or was that just the only way we could get Suarez and Sturridge into the team last year when in reality Brendan would of wanted to stick with the lone forward?

I still believe "good" players will always find a way and that tactics/formations are secondary.
I remember Lawrenson saying that Bob Paisley never gave them any tactical talks so to speak he trusted the players to know what was expected of them in the position they were picked for. Souness also commented on how he got a bollocking for asking a question about what was expected from him.
when Alan Kennedy broke clear in the box against RM in the European Cup final what tactic or formation reflected that.
Players need to be far more accountable for their performance and we perhaps shouldn't look to the manager to produce some master stroke to win games.

Was gonna start a new thread, but it's probably easier to just lash it in here about the evolution of us as a football club.

Reading the earlier pages of this thread, it shows most people wanting one genuine forward and a couple of others pissing about on the wings. But suddenly after last year's heorics of having two up top, that's the way we have to go for most people. In fact Brendan is being slaughtered for only going with the one up top. So have we evolved that much within Brendan's time that we've gone from something like this

1
2 5 6 3
4
8 11
7    10
9

To this;

1
2 5 6 3
4
8 11
10
7 9

So have we evolved into a side that has to play two up top or was that just the only way we could get Suarez and Sturridge into the team last year when in reality Brendan would of wanted to stick with the lone forward?

I think a lot of that has to do with the personnel at hand. As it stands we haven't played with two up top since Spurs IIRC; incidentally our best performance of the season mind.

I look at Balotelli (and this is the most I've ever consistently seen of him) and came to the conclusion pretty quickly that he to me looks like a player that requires a partner. His style looks as though it is dependent on a complementary partner. The same for Danny, he really struggles to get into a game when he is played up front on his own. These two are totally different to someone like Torres (at Liverpool) who thrived being up top on his own. His movement, running, pace and directness gave him the tools to play in this role on his own, although tbf Gerrard was never far away in support.

I think with the personnel we have - all four of our current strikers - Sturridge - Mario - Lambert - Borini, I think all 4 need a partner. At a stretch I think Lambert probably has the game to play the lone role better but really, to me, they all look like strikers who could do with having a partner. Lambert and Balotelli wouldn't be my ideal pairing for a partnership but yesterday Balotelli started to get a bit more room for himself and scoring opportunities, and linked up better with the team once Lambert came on.

I can't fathom why Rodgers has persisted with this, maybe he wants to go back to his original system as you have pointed out (if I have got that right) but still, it hasn't clicked. Personally, I'd like to see a pair upfront due the personnel we have. But if not, Rodgers needs to get attack minded (goal threats) right up close and in behind Balotelli to provide movement, support and goal threat. Even then though Balo's game seems to slow the fluidity down but if he (Rodgers) is desperate to persist with it then Sterling-Coutinho-Lallana need to go in behind him with two deep midfielders (Can/Gerrard/Lucas/Henderson or Allen). I don't think any of these aforementioned can play in behind Mario because they don't (except Gerrard) offer 'goal threat'. Henderson makes good runs but doesn't have the consistency of end product.

I think a lot of that has to do with the personnel at hand. As it stands we haven't played with two up top since Spurs IIRC; incidentally our best performance of the season mind.

I look at Balotelli (and this is the most I've ever consistently seen of him) and came to the conclusion pretty quickly that he to me looks like a player that requires a partner. His style looks as though it is dependent on a complementary partner. The same for Danny, he really struggles to get into a game when he is played up front on his own. These two are totally different to someone like Torres (at Liverpool) who thrived being up top on his own. His movement, running, pace and directness gave him the tools to play in this role on his own, although tbf Gerrard was never far away in support.

I think with the personnel we have - all four of our current strikers - Sturridge - Mario - Lambert - Borini, I think all 4 need a partner. At a stretch I think Lambert probably has the game to play the lone role better but really, to me, they all look like strikers who could do with having a partner. Lambert and Balotelli wouldn't be my ideal pairing for a partnership but yesterday Balotelli started to get a bit more room for himself and scoring opportunities, and linked up better with the team once Lambert came on.

I can't fathom why Rodgers has persisted with this, maybe he wants to go back to his original system as you have pointed out (if I have got that right) but still, it hasn't clicked. Personally, I'd like to see a pair upfront due the personnel we have. But if not, Rodgers needs to get attack minded (goal threats) right up close and in behind Balotelli to provide movement, support and goal threat. Even then though Balo's game seems to slow the fluidity down but if he (Rodgers) is desperate to persist with it then Sterling-Coutinho-Lallana need to go in behind him with two deep midfielders (Can/Gerrard/Lucas/Henderson or Allen). I don't think any of these aforementioned can play in behind Mario because they don't (except Gerrard) offer 'goal threat'. Henderson makes good runs but doesn't have the consistency of end product.

Good answer mate.

I've always preferred two up top. It's something I've always said. And it's something I'd certainly like us to return to on a permanent basis but I wonder if Rodgers will revert back to it persist with the one up top even when Sturridge is fit. That could be his chance to take Balotelli out of the firing line for a period. Because if he goes two up top (Balotelli/Sturridge) and it doesn't work out then Balotelli is gonna come in for even more flack, as will Brendan himself. He then also has the option of two up there from the bench then.

I don't though think we'll see us go back to two out and out holding midfielders. I think Rodgers has tried that plenty of times and seen it clearly doesn't work for us. We're much better with one holding (whoever that may be) and then two more traditional central midfielders in front of him. I think it's the other two of the five man midfield or three man attack that's vital.

This year we seem to of become too static, probably with the exception of Coutinho. Sterling has been asked to play on the wing more often than not and has almost stayed there. He isn't moving into the little pockets of space, he isn't making runs across the back line. Markovic has been the same. I don't even think Lallana has done it. He's been too wide at times and not interchanging positions with the others. That's what made us so good last year was the fact that all the players would change positions. This year, we've become too static as an attacking unit.

The biggest challenge with playing 4-4-2 over the past 4-5 seasons has been getting dominated in the middle of the park with your midfield 2 chasing shadows against their 3.

I think the difference last year was having two players in Sturridge and Suarez who took up so many different positions and worked so hard off the ball (both in term of winning it back and their movement when we had it) that being a man down in midfield didn't make a difference because they pulled back fours all over the place and regularly occupied midfielders.

With the personnel available at the moment I would not fancy our chances, particularly if it was Lambert and Balotelli, they might have looked half decent together at the end of the game yesterday. It is very different in the first half of games when the opposition are fresh and running their arses off. I think we would get found out middle of the park or caught out in 2 on 1s out on the wings.

I think it can work once Sturridge is back and I also would be tempted to give Raheem a run out up top as well but not Rickie and Mario.

As for whether we can make it work with one up top. Definitely not with Mario, to be honest my mind is made up with him. It was a huge mistake to sign him, completely Compromises our style of play, he is a tempo killer and I would be happy enoug to get shot in January and have a run at the youngster at West Brom. I think Lambert deserves a crack up there, he showed he could do the job at Saints and what's more they played a very similar brand of football to us. He isn't the most mobile but he is intelligent, he doesn't dally on the ball like Mario and he is a selfless player. Stick him up there with Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling playing behind him and I'd be happy with that.

If not I would still like to see Sterling in the false 9. It would immediately stop teams like Hull coming to Anfield and pressing us with a high line, it was a bit embarrassing that they were able to do this.

against small teams we could play 4-4-2 at home ... when we're facing strong opposition we can go for a diamond of 3 in the middle

against small teams we could play 4-4-2 at home ... when we're facing strong opposition we can go for a diamond of 3 in the middle

Being pedantic, wouldn't a 3 be a triangle not a diamond?

yes, i was thinking to a diamond formation of 4-1-2-1-2 . sorry  =)) with stevie/can dm - henderson and coutinho cm - sterling behind balo and sturridge

yes, i was thinking to a diamond formation of 4-1-2-1-2 . sorry  =))

 

Whichever way we play We need to get Lallana, Coutinho and Sterling all onto the pitch at the same time. At the moment it seems to be Coutinho OR Lallana and I don't understand it. They all work hard, they are all technically superb, good in tight spaces and willing to run at players. If you don't have these qualities in your strikers (and we don't until Studge is back) then surely you need to maximise these qualities elsewhere in the team?

Play all three Brendan

I don't though think we'll see us go back to two out and out holding midfielders. I think Rodgers has tried that plenty of times and seen it clearly doesn't work for us. We're much better with one holding (whoever that may be) and then two more traditional central midfielders in front of him. I think it's the other two of the five man midfield or three man attack that's vital.

I'm pretty sure that is how we lined up yesterday mate with Can and Stevie both sitting deep and Allen ahead of them. Given the clean sheet I suspect the manager will argue that it worked. I would argue that it didn't BUT switch Coutinho for Allen and it isn't such a bad shout and I'd be happy enough to see two holders again.

that means taking gerrard or henderson out of the team ... or playing with sterling and sturridge upfront rather than mario ...

that means taking gerrard or henderson out of the team ... or playing with sterling and sturridge upfront rather than mario ...

                Lambert

Lallana.     Coutinho.     Sterling


        Gerrard.      Henderson

                Lambert

Lallana.     Coutinho.     Sterling


        Gerrard.      Henderson

this team is suicidal ... no cover at all at the back, stevie can't be relied on anymore as an anchorman, he didn't play that position in the last 10 years, and it showed last season ... and sturridge can't be played as a lone striker ... i was thinking on a formation for our team in general, not on the current players available

this team is suicidal ... no cover at all at the back, stevie can't be relied on anymore as an anchorman, he didn't play that position in the last 10 years, and it showed last season ... and sturridge can't be played as a lone striker ... i was thinking on a formation for our team in general, not on the current players available

Maybe you should provide a little more of an argument next time you are are so dismissive of someone's else's opinion? I suspect that is why you get so much stick on this forum.

It's not suicidal at all. Gerrard can play the anchorman role, it isn't in doubt, he played it superbly last season and made a lot of people in this place look very stupid in the process. If indeed he has slowed down a touch this season and needs a bit of support, the fact I pencilled Henderson in next to him is a reflection of that. We actually played two holders against Hull at the weekend, obviously we looked fairly. Solid defensively but we had absolutely nothing going forward, hence my point about getting Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling (our three most creative players) onto the pitch at the same time. It is also worth noting that all three of those players work very hard when we don't have the ball which further debunks your dismissive 'that team is suicidal' argument. And as for your assumption that Sturridge cannot play as a lone forward, I don't think that is proven because he hasn't been asked to do it very often. He might have looked poor against Saints and City early in the season but he certainly did the job pretty well at the beginning of last season scoring the only goal in our first three games and I believe scoring in our first five of the season, hardly definitive proof he can't play the role is it?

Maybe you should provide a little more of an argument next time you are are so dismissive of someone's else's opinion? I suspect that is why you get so much stick on this forum.

It's not suicidal at all. Gerrard can play the anchorman role, it isn't in doubt, he played it superbly last season and made a lot of people in this place look very stupid in the process. If indeed he has slowed down a touch this season and needs a bit of support, the fact I pencilled Henderson in next to him is a reflection of that. We actually played two holders against Hull at the weekend, obviously we looked fairly. Solid defensively but we had absolutely nothing going forward, hence my point about getting Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling (our three most creative players) onto the pitch at the same time. It is also worth noting that all three of those players work very hard when we don't have the ball which further debunks your dismissive 'that team is suicidal' argument. And as for your assumption that Sturridge cannot play as a lone forward, I don't think that is proven because he hasn't been asked to do it very often. He might have looked poor against Saints and City early in the season but he certainly did the job pretty well at the beginning of last season scoring the only goal in our first three games and I believe scoring in our first five of the season, hardly definitive proof he can't play the role is it?

Have to admit, with that formation mate I'd be inclined to play Can next to Gerrard. It's a formation that I don't think suites Henderson given the type of player he is. He'd defo offer more next to Gerrard like you have suggested, rather than playing in an attacking trio behind the striker but in the end I think Can looks a better option there. Just my opinion like.

I also think Sturridge offers more in a partnership up top. But it would be worth a try if Coutinho, Sterling & Lallana played in behind him.

Have to admit with that formation mate, I'd be inclined to play Can next to Gerrard. It's a formation that I don't think suites Henderson given the type of player he is. He'd defo offer more next to Gerrard like you have suggested, rather than playing in an attacking trio behind the striker but in the end I think Can looks a better option there. Just my opinion like.

I don't quite get all the fuss about Can, he looks like he can be a player BUT I think it's gonna take a bit of time. He doesn't look the most mobile to me and I actually think he needs to lose a couple of kilos. He looks good when he runs with the ball though, certainly has some drive and energy about him. I just want to see our best players on the pitch at the moment. It annoys the hell out of me to see someone like Coutinho on e bench for 60 minutes whilst the lads on the pitch trot out the anaemic performance we saw at the weekend. Our five best midfielders are Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling. They should be on the pitch.

Sorry for being so dismissive ... in my opinion, stevie g is one of the main reasons we conceded too much goals last season, 2 goals less than hull who were fighting relegation, and more than palace or southampton, it was a miracle we fought for the title with that leaky defence, and this comes from the fact that our defensive midfielder (stevie g) didn't provide cover at all to our defenders, leaving them on numerous occasions exposed to a frontal attack, this combined with glen johnson almost always caught out of his position, meant that we were likely to concede with almost every attack of the opposition, no matter how weak the opposition was, remember the game away at Norwich, home with Sunderland, even at Cardiff we were in shambles in defence, at Fulham also.

So the basics in creating a strong team are the defence and the midfield, hence we need an anchorman who can provide cover and can run his guts for the team, linking the defence with the midfield. Stevie is too slow to do that nowadays, either our manager shows guts and resorts to giving him less minutes in the starting eleven, as Chelsea did with Lampard, even though Lampard's role at Chelsea wasn't so vital as he played an advanced position, if he made a mistake, they had Obi Mikel/Ramires/Matic/Essien covering him. At us if Stevie makes a mistake, we're fu**ed, see the slip vs. Chelsea. Or we change Gerrard role to an advanced position, we could play 4-5-1 or 4-1-2-1-2 depending who we are facing. In a 4-1-2-1-2 formation, i think of the following starting lineup : Mings-Glen-Sakho-Skrtel/Lovren-Moreno-Lucas/Can-Henderson-Coutinho/Gerrard-Sterling-Sturridge-Balotelli, and in 4-5-1 : Same defence , with Sterling-Henderson/Gerrard-Lucas/Can-Lallana-Markovic-Sturridge  ... What this means is our need for an established defensive midfielder, Khedira comes to my mind, Song also.

I'm pretty sure that is how we lined up yesterday mate with Can and Stevie both sitting deep and Allen ahead of them. Given the clean sheet I suspect the manager will argue that it worked. I would argue that it didn't BUT switch Coutinho for Allen and it isn't such a bad shout and I'd be happy enough to see two holders again.

I don't know mate, I don't think we played with two midfielders sitting.

Can played the Henderson role more than that of a holding midfielder.

Sorry for being so dismissive ... in my opinion, stevie g is one of the main reasons we conceded too much goals last season, 2 goals less than hull who were fighting relegation, and more than palace or southampton, it was a miracle we fought for the title with that leaky defence, and this comes from the fact that our defensive midfielder (stevie g) didn't provide cover at all to our defenders, leaving them on numerous occasions exposed to a frontal attack, this combined with glen johnson almost always caught out of his position, meant that we were likely to concede with almost every attack of the opposition, no matter how weak the opposition was, remember the game away at Norwich, home with Sunderland, even at Cardiff we were in shambles in defence, at Fulham also.

Anybody would have struggled to play the holding role in our side last season, you could have put Makalele (in his prime) in there and we still would have conceded goals left right and centre. We get bodies forward very quickly, the full-backs both push on so high and the lads played at such a tempo that when they did lose the ball the opposition had a ton of space to exploit. Add that to our shocking defending at set-pieces and our full-backs failure to defend crosses and we are in trouble.

 

So the basics in creating a strong team are the defence and the midfield, hence we need an anchorman who can provide cover and can run his guts for the team, linking the defence with the midfield. Stevie is too slow to do that nowadays, either our manager shows guts and resorts to giving him less minutes in the starting eleven, as Chelsea did with Lampard, even though Lampard's role at Chelsea wasn't so vital as he played an advanced position, if he made a mistake, they had Obi Mikel/Ramires/Matic/Essien covering him. At us if Stevie makes a mistake, we're fu**ed, see the slip vs. Chelsea. Or we change Gerrard role to an advanced position, we could play 4-5-1 or 4-1-2-1-2 depending who we are facing. In a 4-1-2-1-2 formation, i think of the following starting lineup : Mings-Glen-Sakho-Skrtel/Lovren-Moreno-Lucas/Can-Henderson-Coutinho/Gerrard-Sterling-Sturridge-Balotelli, and in 4-5-1 : Same defence , with Sterling-Henderson/Gerrard-Lucas/Can-Lallana-Markovic-Sturridge  ... What this means is our need for an established defensive midfielder, Khedira comes to my mind, Song also.

I personally wanted us to throw 50 million of the Suarez money to try and bring in Paul Pogba so I would love that sort of player. Song and Khediera are both good players but I daresay we would still need another sat in there next to them given the way we play. The idea of Steview making a mistake and us being buggered would apply to any player you might put in there.

Incidentally, do you not think that Gerrard links defence to attack? I would argue he is one of the best in the League at this.

The Chelsea comparison isn't a great one because Mourinho is a polar opposite to Brendan in terms of how his teams play. If you watch Chelsea they are all about shape, even when they have the ball, they are very very patient, very careful, they play through the thirds, they don't over commit their full backs and if they do lose the ball they are rarely out of shape defensively. Of course it helps that they have always been able to throw buckets at the top attacking players in the world to make this work for them.

I think if we put Lucas and Can sitting in front of Sakho and Lovren over time we will see the reward of a strong defence.  But that isn't the Brendan way.  And in fact we are in a faze of building a squad.  We are quite early in the stage of development.  I think with Brendan's philosophy of scoring goals.  Goals win games.  Ok it can get silly sometimes we score 2 or 3 goals and we don't win.  But to maintain CL football we need to rack up wins.   Last season success came because of just that.   We need to start getting players hitting the onion bags.  Slowly we are creating more chances with this slowly we will start scoring more too.  I think this is the only way forward.   I think it is far too early to change the tactics so significantly on the basis of a dozen games.  We need to get the best out of our attacking players that is the most expensive part of the team. 

We are caught in no mans land. We don't play possession football like Barca used to. Nor do we play counterattack football like say Dortmund or even Atletico. An interesting comparison is the way we have a soft centre when we play possession football which in many ways mirrors Barca (in the great years). The were sometimes susceptible to route 1 goals because their positioning sometimes was way out due to the nature of their play. We are not in the same class as Barca were in terms of ball retention yet seem to suffer the same fate when it goes wrong.

As mentioned we are not a counterattack team like Dortmund set up to defend well and with intensity and then break with precision. There is always some distance between forward and back when we are defending. The loss of Suarez and Sturridge and the inclusion of a centre forward like Balotelli has highlighted weaknesses in our game. Hopefully when Sturridge comes back the strengths of our game will resurface.

The Chelsea comparison isn't a great one because Mourinho is a polar opposite to Brendan in terms of how his teams play. If you watch Chelsea they are all about shape, even when they have the ball, they are very very patient, very careful, they play through the thirds, they don't over commit their full backs and if they do lose the ball they are rarely out of shape defensively. Of course it helps that they have always been able to throw buckets at the top attacking players in the world to make this work for them.

I thought that was the big contrast between Swansea last night and ourselves mate. Swansea looked very disciplined while still playing in a similar way to ourselves, while we looked unsure of what to do when we lost possession or when we tried to make a break.

I thought too often when we gained possession it was like a cavalry charge (or a kids school match)with everyone chasing to get forward rather than trying to create width like Swansea did.

I appreciate that a lot of changes meant that we wouldn't have the same understanding but we have looked undisciplined in most of our games this season.