Trending Topics

      Next match: Atalanta v LFC [Europa League] Thu 18th Apr @ 8:00 pm - Pre Match Topic
      Stadio di Bergamo

      Today is the 16th of April and on this date LFC's match record is P31 W16 D7 L8

      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

      Read 150756 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      Darth Joe
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 846 posts | 31 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #368: Oct 29, 2014 08:52:30 am
      I appreciate that a lot of changes meant that we wouldn't have the same understanding but we have looked undisciplined in most of our games this season.

      Perhaps with time the team would fix this? Last season took quite awhile for the engines to start running, of course we had a certain Suarez then, but I think the next few matches we will see if we can get some sort of rhythm. The win last night will give a boost to confidence which we have lacked a lot as well.
      s@int
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,987 posts | 2282 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #369: Oct 29, 2014 08:55:52 am
      Perhaps with time the team would fix this? Last season took quite awhile for the engines to start running, of course we had a certain Suarez then, but I think the next few matches we will see if we can get some sort of rhythm. The win last night will give a boost to confidence which we have lacked a lot as well.

      Hopefully mate. We have had to integrate a lot of new players and it may not be quite as quick and simple as we sometimes think. 
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #370: Oct 29, 2014 10:07:26 am
      Interesting game last night against one of the better PL eams (admittedly not their first team) where we played with a proper DM.
      We seemed to have so much more control in midfield, we actually kept hold of possession better than recent games. Add into that Lucas reads the game so well always in the right place to intercept compare to Stevie always lunging in with a late cover tackle 

      As our blistering forwards are not around we dont need the fast transition of play from the back to front so does Gerrard really need to play so many games?

      Having said all that I fully expect Brendan to start Stevie to be on Saturday
      bazspeedman
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 15,790 posts | 2446 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #371: Oct 29, 2014 10:22:57 am
      I thought Lucas played well last night and I would not be against the idea of dropping Stevie for a couple of games for Lucas and play Jordan as captain.
      Roddenberry
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 16,568 posts | 1876 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #372: Oct 29, 2014 10:36:45 am
      I thought Lucas played well last night and I would not be against the idea of dropping Stevie for a couple of games for Lucas and play Jordan as captain.

      I've championed Lucas for a long time, but I just don't think he has a 90 minutes at Premier League pace in him. Still think he has a role to play in the squad, 30-60 minutes here and there, letting us rest Gerrard, blood Can slowly and if he started let Allen have time from the bench, largely because I don't enjoy Joe when he starts but he has impressed me more from the bench.
      chats
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 31,246 posts | 2799 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #373: Oct 29, 2014 11:26:46 am
      Interesting how we've had two strikers on the pitch in both of last two games but Brendan still hasn't gone to the diamond formation and has instead stuck one of the forward out on the wing. Maybe it's something we'll look at when Sturridge is fit.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 20,172 posts | 4401 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #374: Oct 29, 2014 12:41:25 pm
      I've championed Lucas for a long time, but I just don't think he has a 90 minutes at Premier League pace in him. Still think he has a role to play in the squad, 30-60 minutes here and there, letting us rest Gerrard, blood Can slowly and if he started let Allen have time from the bench, largely because I don't enjoy Joe when he starts but he has impressed me more from the bench.

      I think Lucas can play the 90mins but only as a DM.
      Mind you I Wouldn't Want him playing anywhere other than DM.

      « Last Edit: Oct 29, 2014 06:34:05 pm by HScRed1 »
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,000 posts | 1991 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #375: Nov 03, 2014 07:35:02 pm
      Wow, Borini, Balotelli and Lambert all touched the ball inside the box 49 times, Aguero alone has 95 ish touches ....

      Carra saying it's also the responsibility of the midfield to create, but with lack of movement up front, what can our midfield do? :/
      harrydunn08
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,917 posts | 957 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #376: Nov 25, 2014 01:16:51 pm
      Right now, we have 3 problems:

      1. Our attackers can't create scoring opportunities for themselves.

      2. Our midfield is ineffective because teams will either man Mark Gerrard out of the game, or they will sit deep and squeeze the spaces he usually tries to hit passes into.

      3. Our defense is being left exposed and we are leaking way too many goals.

      I don't think there is any one thing we can change that can fix all 3 of these items, but I do think the easy ones to correct are #2 and #3. If Brendan adjusts his tactics to be more direct, drops Gerrard, and starts to play a 4-4-1-1 with two holding midfielders then I think we can tighten up the defense and be more dangerous on the break which should help us create more chances and score more goals. I also think this shift would suit Balotelli as he is used to playing in a more direct style. I'd go for something like this:

      Migs
      Manquillo-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
      Sterling-Lucas-Can-Markovic
      Lallana
      Balotelli

      If we stop shipping soft goals then it will be easier for us to win games 1-0 rather than needing 3 or 4 goals to beat teams like QPR and Palace....
      saille29
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,514 posts | 242 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #377: Nov 26, 2014 09:46:53 pm
      when the opposition have corner a why in gods name do we not have an outlet, sterling on the halfway line would scare the sh*t
      out of defenders with his pace !!! 
      asharma.lfc
      • Forum Alan Hansen
      • ****

      • 652 posts | 26 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #378: Nov 27, 2014 06:50:39 am
      when the opposition have corner a why in gods name do we not have an outlet, sterling on the halfway line would scare the sh*t
      out of defenders with his pace !!!
      True this.
      Even if we clear the ball, it will come back right at us.

      Same goes for his substitutions. Remember SAF used to bring Chicharito or other quick attackers during the closing minutes even when they are leading. Then commentators would go crazy that SAF is going for more goals and blah blah blah. The thing he does is with the quick fresh legs upfront, opposition defense will be hesitant to push up towards their box. I think the same thing happened with us this season against Everton. When we brought on Lambert and left him alone upfront , everton's defenders pushed all the way into our half knowing that Lambert is easily catchable. Guess what happened next?
      ajayi82
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,964 posts | 66 
      • #REDorDEAD
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #379: Nov 28, 2014 09:26:31 am
      whats wrong with good old fashioned 4-4-2! its hard for teams to break down, we have two stikers offering more in ways of movement etc and everyone knows there job.
                                                   mignole
      team would be          manquello    lovern  sakho  moreno
                             sterling     henderon/lallana  can/allen      coutinho/markovic/
                                               ballotelli/lambert  borini

      RB's would then defend more, with widemen offering crosses and attacks, one of the mid players always sits allowing the other more freedom to
      attack, with two up top they move and create space for each other which is something the SAS did amazingly last season.
      one up top offers no movement meaning we end up losing the ball and beign attacked which i think is the main  reson we are so defensivly poor as we end up chasing the ball. its not been used for a while so go back to basics.
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,592 posts | 2153 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #380: Dec 09, 2014 09:56:13 pm
      One of the few times we actually looked like LFC was during the 2nd half of the game against Madrid at Anfield. We played a false 9 with Sterling up top in the 2nd half and despite not scoring we suddenly had pace, tempo and movement in our game. I did bang on about it for a few days after the game and hoped that Brendan might give it a regular run.

      Surely tonight proves it is worth a go? No more statuesque Lambert or Balotelli. Stick Raheem up there, play Lallana, Gerrard and Coutinho (even Markovic looked a good shout based on 15 minutes tonight) behind him and let them interchange. Fuc..k playing an out an out striker, let be honest, ours are all shi...te.

      It has to be the way to go until we can one day get Studge back.

      Brendan can't coach this static, careful, keep it tight football we've been trying to play, I don't think its in his nature and I don't think he can coach it.
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,980 posts | 2264 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #381: Dec 09, 2014 10:04:21 pm
      Brendan can't coach this static, careful, keep it tight football we've been trying to play, I don't think its in his nature and I don't think he can coach it.

      Yet weirdly mate that's what most have been screaming for all season, to tighten up at the back and not be so open.  When he does everyone's screaming he's defensive and playing it safe.  He's basically done what most people have asked for, played Lucas, dropped Lovren and pushed Stevie up top, can't do right for doing wrong.
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,592 posts | 2153 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #382: Dec 09, 2014 10:12:43 pm
      Yet weirdly mate that's what most have been screaming for all season, to tighten up at the back and not be so open.  When he does everyone's screaming he's defensive and playing it safe.  He's basically done what most people have asked for, played Lucas, dropped Lovren and pushed Stevie up top, can't do right for doing wrong.

      Shhhhhh Debs your talking way toooooo much sense!

      You are right though. But for me, whilst we might huff and puff and grab a few results against the lesser sides for every late lucky win against Stoke there will be an ugly 0-0 at home to Sunderland and I suspect that if we try the tactic at the toilet at the weekend we will get turned over comfortably. From the moment Rickie went off at half-term we had tempo, energy and movement back in our play. It comes immediately because suddenly we're not playing with a big immobile fella up front who for the most part sits on the toes of the centre-halves. Sterling generally put himself in between the CB and LB and was always on the shoulder looking to threaten OR he was dropping off, facing up with the ball and looking to run at players whilst leaving gaps for our midfielders to attack. We looked fluid. Since the Spurs game we have only looked like a fluid side on two occasions, the 2nd half vs Madrid at Anfield and for 15 minutes here tonight before a joke sending off.

      We simply don't work with Rickie up there, we don't work with Mario up there. Brendan has tried it but it doesn't work. Time to try something else.

      A forward line of

                                Sterling

          Coutinho           Gerrard          Lallana/Markovic

                              Lucas    Can
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,980 posts | 2264 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #383: Dec 09, 2014 10:23:19 pm
      Shhhhhh Debs your talking way toooooo much sense!

      You are right though. But for me, whilst we might huff and puff and grab a few results against the lesser sides for every late lucky win against Stoke there will be an ugly 0-0 at home to Sunderland and I suspect that if we try the tactic at the toilet at the weekend we will get turned over comfortably. From the moment Rickie went off at half-term we had tempo, energy and movement back in our play. It comes immediately because suddenly we're not playing with a big immobile fella up front who for the most part sits on the toes of the centre-halves. Sterling generally put himself in between the CB and LB and was always on the shoulder looking to threaten OR he was dropping off, facing up with the ball and looking to run at players whilst leaving gaps for our midfielders to attack. We looked fluid. Since the Spurs game we have only looked like a fluid side on two occasions, the 2nd half vs Madrid at Anfield and for 15 minutes here tonight before a joke sending off.

      We simply don't work with Rickie up there, we don't work with Mario up there. Brendan has tried it but it doesn't work. Time to try something else.

      A forward line of

                                Sterling

          Coutinho           Gerrard          Lallana/Markovic

                              Lucas    Can

      I agree mate, I'd much prefer the 'flying by the seat of our pants' approach to the way we've been playing but I can also understand the need to sort out our defensive woes.

      I can't remember where I read it earlier but the suggestion was to try Pep's methods of a GK, CB, Striker and 8 CM's, everyone defends, everyone attacks and the opposition haven't a clue who they're supposed to be watching.  Seems like a plan  :D
      Son Of A Gun
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,187 posts | 1269 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #384: Dec 09, 2014 10:23:19 pm
      Keep the usual defence as it is - play Moreno more, and drop Skrtel for Sakho so the Chuckle Brothers can contribute laughs on the bench.

      Defensively it's more sured up, but attacking wise he needs to shake it up.

      Drop Lambert and put Markovic in there as the 'floating 9' he played tonight - he looked very exciting tonight. And why not give Can a chance over Allen or Lucas?
      waltonl4
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 37,585 posts | 7139 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #385: Dec 09, 2014 10:25:00 pm
      Yet weirdly mate that's what most have been screaming for all season, to tighten up at the back and not be so open.  When he does everyone's screaming he's defensive and playing it safe.  He's basically done what most people have asked for, played Lucas, dropped Lovren and pushed Stevie up top, can't do right for doing wrong.

      have you seen our results this season?
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,592 posts | 2153 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #386: Dec 09, 2014 10:28:58 pm
      Keep the usual defence as it is - play Moreno more, and drop Skrtel for Sakho so the Chuckle Brothers can contribute laughs on the bench.

      Defensively it's more sured up, but attacking wise he needs to shake it up.

      Drop Lambert and put Markovic in there as the 'floating 9' he played tonight - he looked very exciting tonight. And why not give Can a chance over Allen or Lucas?

      I'm pretty sure it was Sterling who was playing in the 9 mate, Markovic was on the right when he came on
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,980 posts | 2264 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #387: Dec 09, 2014 10:29:44 pm
      have you seen our results this season?

      No I've been in a F***ing coma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      GeorgeRed
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,590 posts | 324 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #388: Dec 09, 2014 10:52:24 pm
      No I've been in a f**king coma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      you still are it seems
      Magillionare
      • Official LFC Reds Sig Maker. Lives on Sesame Street.
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,918 posts | 2381 
      • Hold on a minute, John Wayne hasn't arrived yet.
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #389: Jan 01, 2015 06:45:16 pm
      Ok so it seems we are going for 3 CBs 2 wing backs, 2 central and 3 up front like so:

      -----------------------GK
      ----------------CB----CB----CB
      WB------------------------------------WB
      ----------------CM---------CM

      ------------FWD----------------FWD
      ----------------------FWD

      Now this puts a lot of pressure on the centre midfielders to press the play in the middle if we are giving our front 3 a license to attack and want our wing backs bombing forward and stretching the pitch. We're also playing our centre backs deeper with this formation from what I can see this does leave us less exposed however it also means there is more space to be covered in the centre compared to last year as can be seen below:

      2013/14: CBs push a little higher and Gerrard played deeper, often dropping back into a back 3 so there is room to pass. Without the ball, Henderson and Allen would act as a screen across midfield before the back 3 of Gerrard, Skrtel and Agger. Any balls in behind could be mopped up by the pace of Flano or Johnson. The high line allowed us to squeeze the midfield and press high up the pitch meaning at any one time we could have 6 players inside the middle third of the park defending, with only 2 (and GK) covering the final third. This made us leak goals but also meant that team would be forced to flood the midfield in order to compensate for 6 redmen dominating the middle of the park everytime they tried to attack. Once the ball was won back, it could be given to Gerrard and he'd have time and space because there was no way anyone could be near him unless they were coming from an offside position. This also meant that because teams flooded the midfield, there was more space up front for Suarez and Sturridge, part of the reason why Sturridge was so effective was that Suarez was often double marked meaning that teams had 6 men covering the centre, 2 men on Suarez, 1 in goals and that leaves 3 more. If they had 2 up front that meant Sturridge only had to lose one man, easy work for a player of his standard. Often that one man could be forced to come and help out the middle third if Sterling or Henderson were blitzing in behind from midfield and the opposition couldn't keep up, leaving Sturridge in what seemed to be acres of space time and time again last year.

      LB------------CB--------CB----------RB
                                ^                       
                            Gerrard

                    Henderson   Allen
                            Sterling

      Flash forward to this year.... Without Suarez in the team, the opposition have used that man that would have been on Suarez and are pinning them on Gerrard, meaning that there is much less space for him to play in. Rogers has adjusted, and rightly so, however that has left a puzzling question of what to do with Gerrard if we cannot use him in his best position. The way we currently play is a deeper back 3 with two wing backs bombing forward (the opposite of last year almost where we had a high back 2 and wing backs sweeping behind). This means the gap between the midfield and the defenders is much greater and we can see clearly the line between final third and the middle third of the pitch:

      ----------CB-----CB--------CB

      WB-----------------------------WB

      -----------CM-------CM

      Now on paper the wing backs cover that gap but in reality they are very rarely there, and it still leaves a space in the centre. This means that our centre midfield players are expected to press the middle of the field on their own. Where we once had 6 men, we now have 2. We need to be aggressive, switch to a flat back 5 like so

      RB-----Can-----CB-----CB------LB
      ------------------ Gerrard
      ------Henderson----
      ---------------------------Coutinho
      --Lallana
      -------------Sterling


      Three key men to highlight here are Gerrard, Henderson and Can.

      1. Gerrard: Playing closer to the centre backs leaves him with less work defensively to do in midfield. Once again we can see that along with Henderson and the 3 CBs we now have 5 in the middle third with more defensive minded wing backs with pace to sweep in behind and watch the defensive third of the pitch. Gerrard himself won't be able to do a lot of pressing in the middle of the park, neither will the centre backs, they are there mainly to squeeze the centre and eliminate space, the pressing is where this man comes in:

      2. Henderson: It is VITAL that he plays in the centre. He is the linchpin between attack and defence. Pressing and closing down can be launched quickly into forward runs cutting through the middle third of the pitch and launching into the final third giving our forwards more space and more options to use. He can be trusted to get forward but more importantly he can be trusted to bust a gut to get back and help the team, something Gerrard cannot do anymore and he was really found out against Leicester when he didn't have Henderson to cover for him and instead the tired legs of Lucas.

      3. Can: Arguably the most important of all here is Can. If we drop Gerrard deeper again, chances are he'll be man marked once again. Can is a great option to use as a playmaker if Gerrard is not available. With someone man marking Gerrard, this leaves more space for Can and also, more space for the targets he's looking for. Gerrard can happily drop into the left hand side CB position, bringing his man with him, allowing the right side CB Can lots of time and space to use his impressive array of passes.

      I'd really like to see us pressing higher up the field again, using Stevie deeper because he's useless anywhere else it really has to be said (even though I hate saying it). Can and Henderson are key in helping out Gerrard here, we've got one of the best passers in world football in Gerrard here, and we cannot get him on the ball. We're also asking him to do the impossible task of covering the middle third of the pitch with help from only one other compared to the 5 others he had last season.

      I really hope this is the last time we see Gerrard and Lucas in the centre together, it's an unfair task to ask of them, they need help and support and I believe this is how they'll get it.

      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,592 posts | 2153 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #390: Jan 01, 2015 09:58:27 pm
      The issue as I see it is we are simply too gung-ho. I appreciated the efforts Rodgers made to try and play a more conservative game for a period earlier in the season but we were simply stagnant as an attacking force so it made perfect sense to get Raheem in the false nine (should have happened weeks earlier mind) and get back to the fundamentals of last seasons play which were pace, movement, tempo and pressing the ball. The manager deserves some credit for pulling the side out of the malaise BUT I wish he would make some further adjustments.

      But it seems to me there has to be a middle ground. We can't swarm all over teams and send so many players forward as last season because (despite dropping players like Lambert/Balo) we are never going to match the goal outputs of last season without the likes of Sturridge in the side.

      Tactical errors from today's game for me were:

      - Our wide players were far to attacking. It was ridiculous at times, the amount of times they turned us and I watched Moreno wrong side of the ball sprinting back as quickly as he could and the same applied to Henderson. Even at 2-0 up. Gerrard (and to a lesser extent Lucas) getting all the stick in the match thread but there was more to it than that. The speed at which the ball transitions from us attacking their final third to them then attacking ours was frenetic. Rodgers (and the players) need to learn how to manage the game. When you are two nil up you don't need to be playing end to end football, it's niaive and kamikaze.

      - Gerrard and Lucas shouldn't play together in there, everybody can see it. The whole premise of pressing the ball high and being aggressive from a defensive point of view is undone by having them in there together. It has to be one or the other. I would have rested Lucas today and brought and kept Henderson in the middle or failing that, brought Joe Allen back into the team. And if you are going to play them together the. For goodness sake, speak to your wide players, ensure they help out and aren't leaving all the runners to the middies and the back three to pick up as happened today.

      - Another tactical problem for me today was in our passing. Far too direct, always looking to play the ball forward and generally risking possession rather than retaining it. Again Thai goes back to game management. You are 2-0 up, take the sting out of it, keep the ball, play 360 degrees and work your opportunities.

      Quick Reply