Tactics geeks of the world unite...

You can talk about tactics all day long but when the likes of Nacer Chadli has scored more goals than your strikers it's going to be tough, in fact considering the number of goals we have scored it's a miracle we have got anywhere near Top 4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers

Is this because Rodgers has got it tactically wrong throughout the season? Did his stubbornness and refusal to acknowledge our strikers cost us? For me, the evidence is there for all to see, we have struggled in attack all season, and Rodgers unwillingness to play our strikers or not accept their strengths seems to be detrimental to our attacking play.

Would Balo, Borini or Lambert be any worse than our current attacking situation? I doubt it. Maybe if he had played to our strikers strengths and took a chance with them we wouldn't be in such a predicament.

Coutinho as a false #9 opens a lot of doors for me.

                  Lucas
          Hendo   Sterling
Sturridge   Coutinho  Lallana

With Lallana and Sturridge playing as inside forwards, I think they'll be required to make runs more often than holding or carrying the ball? and with Sterling attacking from deep and Coutinho as the false #9, I actually think this could be something special?

Coutinho as a false #9 opens a lot of doors for me.

                  Lucas
          Hendo   Sterling
Sturridge   Coutinho  Lallana

With Lallana and Sturridge playing as inside forwards, I think they'll be required to make runs more often than holding or carrying the ball? and with Sterling attacking from deep and Coutinho as the false #9, I actually think this could be something special?

I prefer Coutinho making the forward passes into Sterling and Sturridge (assuming he can last more than 1 game).

His natural inclination is to drop deep anyway, but as always it's great to have another option to keep the opposition guessing.

I prefer Coutinho making the forward passes into Sterling and Sturridge (assuming he can last more than 1 game).

Coutinho will not only occupy their CB's, but will drop into the #10 position as well, and that being, we will have a lot of players ahead of him. With Lallana or Sturridge both coming in from wide positions and making runs behind their defence, and Sterling attacking from deep, not only will Coutinho have options for the forward passes, but their CB's may struggle to pick up our attacking players?

Coutinho will not only occupy their CB's, but will drop into the #10 position as well, and that being, we will have a lot of players ahead of him. With Lallana or Sturridge both coming in from wide positions and making runs behind their defence, and Sterling attacking from deep, not only will Coutinho have options for the forward passes, but their CB's may struggle to pick up our attacking players?

depends on who plays further forward, sterling and a fully fit sturridge are ideal, on paper looks fantastic, still not sure where lallana's best position is.

depends on who plays further forward, sterling and a fully fit sturridge are ideal, on paper looks fantastic, still not sure where lallana's best position is.

For me, Lallana is not a good ball carrier, lacks pace and doesn't make those through balls that Coutinho does, so as a #10 and winger, no thanks. However, he has wonderful movement, works hard and a very intelligent player, so having him as in an inside forward making runs into the box should be something to look into. Also, he's tricky on the ball too, so could win penalties for us

Coutinho as a false #9 opens a lot of doors for me.

                  Lucas
          Hendo   Sterling
Sturridge   Coutinho  Lallana

With Lallana and Sturridge playing as inside forwards, I think they'll be required to make runs more often than holding or carrying the ball? and with Sterling attacking from deep and Coutinho as the false #9, I actually think this could be something special?

I agree mate, it's throws a real kink in there for oppo defences to deal with and for the opening 30 minutes we looked very impressive going forward against the barcodes. The fact he will drop off works perfectly so long as the likes of Hendo and Sterling make runs into the space he vacates. I thought it worked really well.

However, I was concerned at the fragility of our defending. The. Kent we jumped back to the back four (which I wanted us to do) we suddenly looked wide open again. I'd like to see our fullbacks playing a little less gung-ho and perhaps for one of the other cms to give Lucas a bit more support, both Henderson and Allen were getting high up the pitch. It it was costing us whenever we turned over possession with players forward to attack.

Coutinhio needs to be central for me as he's best running at people from the centre playing worldy passes and showing off his skill. when he played out wide for Brazil recently he looked out of place and hardly got into the game.
Lallana is tricky apart from that game he was outstanding think he scored 2 he was all over the park and bossed the game but he's again more of a central player and using him out wide is a waste. for me sterling sturridge as a front two, coutihno just behind with hendo and can behind him

"set-up, break-up, split-up" are apparently the three phases of play Rodgers uses when turning over possession.

The midfield and attack are so fluid that you cannot nail a player to a rigid position, maybe Lucas - but he even drops that deep at times he looks as though he is a CB with our fullbacks (in the flat four) becoming wing backs in a five man midfield, with Lovren and Can spreading either side of Lucas as 3 CB's.

Player's to me (mid & atk), look as though they "set-up" wherever they find themselves when out of possession after having the fluidity to roam when in possession. Coutinho, is a perfect example, as others have said he played as a "false" 9, pulls out wide either left or right, drops just behind the attack, or even plays from a deeper position in central midfield. In the second half against Newcastle, he was pinging a couple of passes from central midfield like he was Xabi Alonso! And he didn't look out of place doing that - such is the talent and vision of the player. Sterling too, will run both flanks, come central and drop deeper. If Joe Allen finds himself the furthest forward chasing a through ball, he'll hold that position and "set-up" from there with someone like Coutinho or Sterling filling in for him back a bit deeper. It is very fluid. However, we're still lacking going forward with all this movement and interchanging, probably because we haven't got a red hot striker in form to feed off all the superb build-up play the lads are capable of.

Today was in large part about tactics for me. Clearly we did not perform but I thought the manager got it HORRIBLY wrong throughout the game. Against Newcastle the other night we jumped back to a back four and played Coutinho in a false 9 role. Whilst we did look quite open defensively (despite not conceding) we got our mojo back as an attacking side for the first time in several games. They couldn't mark Coutinho, Sterling was getting into one on one situations regularly and we looked dangerous. The fundamentals of our team (when it performs) are very simple, we play a high line, we press the ball, we dominate the possession, we play at a good tempo, we play with movement, we play with fluidity and are difficult to mark (particularly in forward positions). That was all on show at Anfield on Monday night, especially the opening 35 minutes when we were fantastic going forward.

Why change it?

Maybe it was to do with defensive solidity? I can dig that, it would make sense, we looked a bit ropey against the barcodes. But why not revert to Monday's formation at half-time today?

Bringing on Balotelli GUARANTEED that we could not get back to the fundamentals I've listed above because he is a target man, he doesn't move, he doesn't press the ball, he doesn't stretch the pitch. It meant we ended up playing the hit and hope turgid shi....te that we had to endure in the first three months of the season. We didn't have a single spell in that entire 2nd half where we dominated the ball, had them on the heels and had a proper go at them because we didn't have the right players in the right system.

Today we saw the same old tactics trotted out against our 3-4-3.

Villa played a high line, they squeezed all the angles into our skill players, let us get the ball into Markovic and Moreno (having recognised they are both shi....te) and forced Mignolet into those AWFUL floated kicks out to our wide players, in fact they scored their opener off of the back of one of those. It's a hopeless tactic. Once again we saw Sterling getting further and further isolated. Villa had Benteke drifting out onto Can (just like the munts did with Side show Bob) and it worked for them. I would have swapped Skrtel across to the right of the three after just ten minutes today to combat this.

AS for poor Markovic, what is that? the 3rd/4th time the lad has been subbed at half-term now? Brendan is absolutely killing this kid's fragile confidence. Give the kid a game in his proper position or don't play him at all. He's not cut out for lung-back, anyone can see it.

Now I like our Manager, there are times when I see some genius, real tactical nous but there are times when he is very slow to react, or persists for too long with something.

It's back to the drawing board.

I disagree about Balo Scott. To me we actually threatened more with him on the pitch. Sterling offered absolutely nothing today and while being caught offsides multiple times, Balo was actually doing some pressing and really should have had the tying goal had the linesman not completely jobbed us on the offsides call. That was a goal and it wasn't even close. We once again got overrun in the midfield. Couldn't string any passes together and couldn't keep possession under their press. It was pretty sad actually. We have no steel in midfield which is why for one we need to move Can from the back into midfield to provide some presence. And we need a holding midfielder that can actually hold the ball, not Joe Allen.

I disagree about Balo Scott. To me we actually threatened more with him on the pitch. Sterling offered absolutely nothing today and while being caught offsides multiple times, Balo was actually doing some pressing and really should have had the tying goal had the linesman not completely jobbed us on the offsides call. That was a goal and it wasn't even close. We once again got overrun in the midfield. Couldn't string any passes together and couldn't keep possession under their press. It was pretty sad actually. We have no steel in midfield which is why for one we need to move Can from the back into midfield to provide some presence. And we need a holding midfielder that can actually hold the ball, not Joe Allen.

He did ok mate to be fair, made a couple of things put of nothing for himself but he isn't right for us, he simply isn't, especially up there on his own.

As for us being overrun and not being able to string passes together. We were dynamic on Monday night for large stretches of the match, being back in a back four meant we had some overlaps and genuine width, two on ones etc. and having Coutinho in the false nine meant he was dropping deep and midfield runners were getting beyond him. That's the movement I'm talking about, you can't get over run if your movement is good and you move the ball quickly, and you don't need muscle either because they can't get near you, big massive pitch like Wembley that's how it should have been.  In order to be successful we need to set up I order  for this to happen, it's more important than anything else tbh.

He did ok mate to be fair, made a couple of things put of nothing for himself but he isn't right for us, he simply isn't, especially up there on his own.

As for us being overrun and not being able to string passes together. We were dynamic on Monday night for large stretches of the match, being back in a back four meant we had some overlaps and genuine width, two on ones etc. and having Coutinho in the false nine meant he was dropping deep and midfield runners were getting beyond him. That's the movement I'm talking about, you can't get over run if your movement is good and you move the ball quickly, and you don't need muscle either because they can't get near you, big massive pitch like Wembley that's how it should have been.  In order to be successful we need to set up I order  for this to happen, it's more important than anything else tbh.

The only time we are dynamic is when we play our natural game which like you say is to press high up the pitch and pin the opposition in their own half. Have Henderson and Coutinho making runs beyond our striker to keep the opposition defenders on the hop.

The mistakes Rodgers has made in all the big games we have lost is that he has gone all cautious and tried to sit back. We all know that he can't set us up defensively and after 3 years he should also realise that by now.
Stick to what you are good at and let the opposition try and stop you if they can.

Going all defensive against Villa.................pf ft

Yesterday's match vs Chelsea has prompted me to ask questions, and looking back on previous matches throughout the season, has anyone else noticed our decision making in the final attacking third has been poor as a collective? I notice that our players try to beat that extra man, hold the ball too long, or shoot at ridiculous angles. Could this be a lack of trust and no authority figure in attack? It feels as if our players lack disciple and seemingly playing for themselves, or perhaps it's Rodgers, encouraging them to be more greedy and shoot on sight?

I know it's a bit early to be discussing next seasons tactics but going off Brendans Zones how are we looking so far?

Zone 1 (1) Mignolet, Bogdan
Zone 2 (2) Sakho, Skrtel, Lovren, Ilori, Toure (Gomez)
Zone 3 (1) Can, Lucas (Rossiter)
Zone 4 (2) Moreno, Clyne, Flanagan (Wisdom)
Zone 5 (2) Milner, Henderson, Allen
Zone 6 (2) Coutinho, Firmino, Markovic, Lallana, (Ibe)
Zone 7 (1) Sturridge, Origi, Ings

I'd say Zones 2, 5 and 6 are looking good/ok and if Studge wasn't so injury prone I'd be happy with 7 too but 3 is looking decidedly weak and 4 could be a problem with Flanno probably not going to be fit until the New Year and there's no certainty he'll ever recover his 13/14 form.

I've got a feeling that the new backroom staff and transfer targets (Milner, Benteke, Clyne, and Firmino in particular) will signal a change in our tactics. I don't have any concrete evidence to back this up, just a hunch.... But, here goes.

I think BR will have 2 formations that we can switch between quickly and easily:  the 4-2-3-1 will be the primary formation, while the 4-3-3 will be the secondary formation. This will allow him to exploit his revolutionary idea of "flipping the triangle" if and when necessary!!   

I believe we will probably like up like this for the season opener:

Migs
Clyne - Skrtel - Sakho - Moreno
Milner - Hendo
Lallana - Firmino - Coutinho
Benteke

In my opinion, we will see a more structured, organized build-up, with a more direct route for chance creation. However, part of our approach will depend on how the opposition attempts to play.

If teams set up to defend deep with 10 men behind the ball, then I think we will play an organized passing game designed to engage Clyne and Moreno on the overlap and get crosses into the box aimed towards our new beast CF. This approach will leave the likes of Firmino, Coutinho, and Lallana on the edge of the box to pick up on the inevitable half clearances and either get a quick shot off or have little 1-2 passing combos to create shooting chances.

On the flip side, if teams attempt to press us high and break up our organized passing game, we will have the option to hit it longer and more direct towards Benteke and exploit the space in behind the high defensive line. Despite the fact that Benteke is freakish big and freakish strong, he's also quicker than you'd expect for a man of that size, and he also has better balance and skill on the ball than many give him credit for. He will be able to play as a target for us to use as an outlet with high balls aimed up to him, and he will also offer an outlet by running the channels to get in behind. This will give us 2 options to break the press:

1. Hit it high and long towards Benteke and allow him to bring our trio of attacking midfielders into play with knock downs, flick ons, and hold up play.

2. Hit it in behind the defensive line and have Benteke run the channels, hold the ball up, and allow our attacking trio to get into more advanced positions.

Finally, I think the way we defend will largely be dictated by how we attack. If we are playing against a team that parks the bus, then we will likely look to press high up the pitch when we lose the ball and keep our territorial advantage as long as possible. Our quintet of midfielders have bags of energy and should be able to deploy a well organized press. On the flip side, if teams are attempting to press us and force us to play long, I think we will oblige by sitting deeper with 2 banks of 4 and having Firmino play right off Benteke. I also think our new tactics will incorporate Brendan's "death by football" possession approach, but more so as a way to defend a lead rather than a means of scoring goals.

For me, this is exactly how Mourinho sets up his teams -- capable of playing short or long, potent on the counter as well as being able to build sustained attacks, and defending deep at times and pressing high when it makes sense. [/list]

I've got a feeling that the new backroom staff and transfer targets (Milner, Benteke, Clyne, and Firmino in particular) will signal a change in our tactics. I don't have any concrete evidence to back this up, just a hunch.... But, here goes.

I think BR will have 2 formations that we can switch between quickly and easily:  the 4-2-3-1 will be the primary formation, while the 4-3-3 will be the secondary formation. This will allow him to exploit his revolutionary idea of "flipping the triangle" if and when necessary!!   

I believe we will probably like up like this for the season opener:

Migs
Clyne - Skrtel - Sakho - Moreno
Milner - Hendo
Lallana - Firmino - Coutinho
Benteke

In my opinion, we will see a more structured, organized build-up, with a more direct route for chance creation. However, part of our approach will depend on how the opposition attempts to play.

If teams set up to defend deep with 10 men behind the ball, then I think we will play an organized passing game designed to engage Clyne and Moreno on the overlap and get crosses into the box aimed towards our new beast CF. This approach will leave the likes of Firmino, Coutinho, and Lallana on the edge of the box to pick up on the inevitable half clearances and either get a quick shot off or have little 1-2 passing combos to create shooting chances.

On the flip side, if teams attempt to press us high and break up our organized passing game, we will have the option to hit it longer and more direct towards Benteke and exploit the space in behind the high defensive line. Despite the fact that Benteke is freakish big and freakish strong, he's also quicker than you'd expect for a man of that size, and he also has better balance and skill on the ball than many give him credit for. He will be able to play as a target for us to use as an outlet with high balls aimed up to him, and he will also offer an outlet by running the channels to get in behind. This will give us 2 options to break the press:

1. Hit it high and long towards Benteke and allow him to bring our trio of attacking midfielders into play with knock downs, flick ons, and hold up play.

2. Hit it in behind the defensive line and have Benteke run the channels, hold the ball up, and allow our attacking trio to get into more advanced positions.

Finally, I think the way we defend will largely be dictated by how we attack. If we are playing against a team that parks the bus, then we will likely look to press high up the pitch when we lose the ball and keep our territorial advantage as long as possible. Our quintet of midfielders have bags of energy and should be able to deploy a well organized press. On the flip side, if teams are attempting to press us and force us to play long, I think we will oblige by sitting deeper with 2 banks of 4 and having Firmino play right off Benteke. I also think our new tactics will incorporate Brendan's "death by football" possession approach, but more so as a way to defend a lead rather than a means of scoring goals.

For me, this is exactly how Mourinho sets up his teams -- capable of playing short or long, potent on the counter as well as being able to build sustained attacks, and defending deep at times and pressing high when it makes sense. [/list]

This is great analysis and exactly what I think we will see. It's also probably the best XI until Sturridge is back and we can readjust to something else (maybe that Man City 4-2-2-2?).

My only concern about this setup is the wide play. Both Coutinho and Lallana will be drifting inward, meaning Moreno and Clyne will have to provide the width -- which is no problem in and of itself other than how we cover those gaps. The old setup relied on the CBs splitting and the DM dropping to play like a 3rd CB in attack, but this will require more tactical discipline from everyone to not leave ourselves overexposed. Discipline and overexposure have not exactly been our strong points the past few seasons!

Anyone else slightly concerned and baffled as to what style of football we plan to play once we have our players fit & available?

Pre season is not only about fitness, but also determines the type of football the manager wants to play. With us, we have been attacking mainly out wide and mostly been direct. How will that pan out when Firmino & Coutinho returns, players that thrive on possession and play better in the middle? What about the arrival of Benteke? Essentially a target man, wouldn't it be best to have him occupy the CB's and working them?

Still see the midfield as a problem, especially if we lose Lucas, there just isn't a player quite like him that can hold the team together in our squad.

Anyone else slightly concerned and baffled as to what style of football we plan to play once we have our players fit & available?

Pre season is not only about fitness, but also determines the type of football the manager wants to play. With us, we have been attacking mainly out wide and mostly been direct. How will that pan out when Firmino & Coutinho returns, players that thrive on possession and play better in the middle? What about the arrival of Benteke? Essentially a target man, wouldn't it be best to have him occupy the CB's and working them?

Still see the midfield as a problem, especially if we lose Lucas, there just isn't a player quite like him that can hold the team together in our squad.

A slight concern but we need to see how the team evolve as the season starts and progresses. With the pre season games it seems likely we are going with a  mixture of 433 and 4231 so looking at the partnership of Henderson and Milner which we can assume will be starting most games this is not a pairing who will be controlling the midfield and patiently building play, they are not technically that sort of players. Then throw in the addition of Benteke then it all points to getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.

This of course does not mean we will be hoofing the ball up to the big man. It may mean more crosses again something which Clyne excels at, but in essence I can see our play looking to transition play from defence to attack quickly and if the first receivers in Henderson and Milner are not able to turn then the lay means that player facing forward will drive the ball forward or make the pass to the front 3.

This is all great when attacking but I still have reservations of Milner and Henderson defensively they both look like having a tendency to look for the ball and not disciplined enough to patrol their zone which leads to large open spaces. The solution of course is a DM and maybe in the big games we go with the 433 to offer extra protection.

Seems to me that Rodgers has realised that the only way to success is attack and scoring lots of goals, probably just as well as I don't think he can set us up to play the defensive game.

A slight concern but we need to see how the team evolve as the season starts and progresses. With the pre season games it seems likely we are going with a  mixture of 433 and 4231 so looking at the partnership of Henderson and Milner which we can assume will be starting most games this is not a pairing who will be controlling the midfield and patiently building play, they are not technically that sort of players. Then throw in the addition of Benteke then it all points to getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.

This of course does not mean we will be hoofing the ball up to the big man. It may mean more crosses again something which Clyne excels at, but in essence I can see our play looking to transition play from defence to attack quickly and if the first receivers in Henderson and Milner are not able to turn then the lay means that player facing forward will drive the ball forward or make the pass to the front 3.

This is all great when attacking but I still have reservations of Milner and Henderson defensively they both look like having a tendency to look for the ball and not disciplined enough to patrol their zone which leads to large open spaces. The solution of course is a DM and maybe in the big games we go with the 433 to offer extra protection.

Seems to me that Rodgers has realised that the only way to success is attack and scoring lots of goals, probably just as well as I don't think he can set us up to play the defensive game.

Couldn't agree more with your assessment. Would add creativity not being their strongest point too.

As for Milner and Hendo's deficiencies, It can be countered in Lucas and Coutinho. Lucas can offer defensive stability, Coutinho offers creativity, but also, both are ball players and can control the middle with their possession play. Surely a midfield diamond would be best & balanced for the team?

Rather than being one dimensional and using plan A, we'll have plan B on the field, being able to play short or direct football which can suit both Benteke & Firmino.

There seems to be a lot of love for the diamond (especially in the formation thread) at the moment but given our striking options I'm struggling to see how it is the best way to play? A fully fit Sturridge and Benteke maybe but do any of our other strikers deserve to start ahead of the likes of Coutinho, Firmino, Coutinho or even young Ibe? Not for me. Origi looks like a project who will play Europa League and come off the bench as an impact sub. I like Ings but a front two of him and Benteke is way too workmanlike for my liking.

There seems to be a lot of love for the diamond (especially in the formation thread) at the moment but given our striking options I'm struggling to see how it is the best way to play?

The way I see it, most of the play goes through the DM/DLPM or a #10. Here are a couple of examples (there are many more if you want to search and watch :p):

https://youtu.be/mlqwImzVXpk (Lucas)
https://youtu.be/lObOcwFBELo (Coutinho)

Now seriously, can you see Hendo, Milner, Can or Allen playing the leading role?

https://youtu.be/UdRs2xWHrsw (Hendo)
https://youtu.be/Y7NEsyLEqBk (Can)
https://youtu.be/VyPmDJru8xI (Allen)
https://youtu.be/FoIBY08U2ZM (Milner)

They are neither destroyers or conductors, they don't have the unique traits to play in a specialist role (#6 or #10). However, what they are most comfortable at is supporting rather than leading, to have that freedom to attack or defend.

Fortunately for us, I believe we have 2 of the very best box-box midfielders in the league, so why not utilise them to their full potential and give them a midfield spine to work from which would allow them to play their natural game? Even if we lose Milner or Hendo, I can see Can or Allen fitting in because we still have the glue in the #10 or/& #6 positions. I can even see the likes of, Tex, Markovic or Ibe fitting in that box-box role because the requirements are minimal (as in not the focal point).

As for our attack, with the diamond formation and right players, we'll have that strong base to build on. Whether it's Benteke & Firmino, Ings & Origi, Benteke & Ings or Firmino & Ings, our midfield should be capable of a short or direct game, allowing them to adapt to any type of strikers.
Also, if you are worried about the Width not only will the full backs offer support, but also, the box-box players, even our forwards can work the channels!

Good post PM although I think you have missed my point a little bit, what i was getting at is that I don't think our forwards are good enough to warrant two of them being on the field at the expense of some of the talented midfielders we have at the club. I'd be happy enough to see Firmino up top with Benteke, particularly as the Brazilian has played a bit in the 10 shirt for Hoffenheim but as for some of the other combinations, would you rather see Origi in the side ahead of a Lallana or a young Jordan Ibe? I wouldn't. I would prefer is to play a formation that gets more of our best players on the pitch at the same time and unfortunately for me I can't get excited about any of our strikers at the moment. Ings has promise, Origi is a 2-3 year project and I'm trying to force myself to get excited about Benteke (I even want he'd a few tube clips this evening but It it isn't working.

My other issue with the diamond is that you can get overrun in the middle of the park or scorched out wide if the opposition manager is tactically astute. It worked for us two years ago because we had two lads up front who never stood still, Luis popped up all over the pitch and Studge (albeit playing more centrally) could roam the pitch also. It meant we never really got outnumbered, we pressed, hustled and harried as a side, and perhaps most importantly we were able to play a midfield that was a little lacking in creativity (ie Allen and Henderson) but was high on work rate safe in the knowledge that the two boys up top and Coutinho (or Sterling) would take care of the creative side of things. The difference this year and last is that we no longer have the talent up front so it makes better sense to me to get as many of our creative players in those front four positions as possible. So that kinda rules out 4-4-2 for me, I would be looking for us to play 4-3-3 as a staple formation throwing in kinks as and when the manager sees fit.