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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      Compuche
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #621: Oct 11, 2015 07:44:49 am
      For me, a 4-2-3-1 of:
      Mignolet
      Clyne, Lovren, Sahko, Moreno
      Henderson, Milner
      Sturridge, Coutinho, Lallana
      Benteke
      (Sub: Firmino, Ings, Origi, Skrtel, Can, Gomez, Lucas, Bodgan)
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #622: Oct 11, 2015 09:30:29 am
      Why do so many people think Emre Can will flourish under him? Don't see it myself. He's a talented lad, but he lacks any sort of intelligence on the pitch.

      If you read my post you would have got your answer.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #623: Oct 11, 2015 09:37:13 am
      People writing of Benteke despite the fact that Klopp tried to sign him back in 2013. Others saying Klopp doesn't use a target man...



      Expect Big Ben to play with Sturridge given free rein behind him and Phil and Firmino completing the narrow 3 attacking midfielders.
      chats
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #624: Oct 11, 2015 10:20:49 am
      People writing of Benteke despite the fact that Klopp tried to sign him back in 2013. Others saying Klopp doesn't use a target man...



      Expect Big Ben to play with Sturridge given free rein behind him and Phil and Firmino completing the narrow 3 attacking midfielders.


      I thought Klopp looked at Benteke but turned him down because he thought he wouldn't be able to adapt to his style?
      Magillionare
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #625: Oct 11, 2015 10:22:52 am
      I thought Klopp looked at Benteke but turned him down because he thought he wouldn't be able to adapt to his style?

      How on earth would that information ever come to the light of day even if it were true?

      He wouldn't have made an offer if he didn't want him either I would imagine. I just think the offer was turned down.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #626: Oct 11, 2015 10:32:55 am
      I thought Klopp looked at Benteke but turned him down because he thought he wouldn't be able to adapt to his style?

      Did Barrett not report something similar along those lines?

      Another player who has been ignored but might flourish under Klopp is Tex.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #627: Oct 11, 2015 11:02:37 am
      It'll be interesting to see who impresses the new Manager over the coming days and how he sees them all fitting together to get the most out of the players available.

      As it stands there's no Hendo, Firmino or Lovren for the foreseeable future and we'll have probably played around 8 more games before they're back.  Danny is still being eased back in so probably can't and shouldn't be playing 2 games a week, Benteke is also just back from injury and Ings has returned early from the England squad with an injury.

      My breakdown is really just for the next couple of games rather than when the above are all properly fit.  He's really not got much to go on in training as so many are missing either injured or on International duty, including a lot of youngsters.

      Skrtel may well start against Spuds but I wouldn't be surprised if Gomez does as he suits Klopps ways far better than Skrtel, so unless Skrtel can change his game pretty rapidly I'd expect that change to happen.  I think the rest of the defense will be Migs, Clyne, Sakho and Moreno.

      For the 2 midfield slots we've got Lucas, Allen, Can and Milner and as I understand a Klopp midfield 2 he likes a sitter and a playmaker.  Any of those 4 can play the sitter role, some better than others obviously but I don't feel any of them are a playmaker.  So does that bring Tex and Chirivella into the reckoning?  I think it does, maybe not straight away but it wouldn't surprise me.

      The 3 attacking mids will include Coutinho, probably from the left with Lallana central and either Sturridge, Ibe or Origi on the right.  I've included Studge if he's not going to be the 1 up top before anyone jumps on me and I've not included Ings, who could also play there, as we don't know if he'll be fit yet.  It's also possible Ryan Kent could be included in the 3 as he probably fits the role better than Ibe.

      Now for the 1 up top, this is where it gets interesting.  Does Bentekes superior hold up play outweigh his lack of pressing?  Is Ings finishing clynical enough to lead the line even though he'll press the life out of defenders every 90?  Is Dannys body strong enough to be pressing from the front for 90 every game?  Each of those players have strengths and weaknesses with a fully fit Studge being the strongest contender as an individual however Klopp goes with what makes the "team" stronger and for me that puts Studge as one of the attacking mids with Ings and Benteke battling it out for the 1.

      Can't wait  ;D
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #628: Oct 11, 2015 12:09:22 pm
      People writing of Benteke despite the fact that Klopp tried to sign him back in 2013. Others saying Klopp doesn't use a target man...



      Expect Big Ben to play with Sturridge given free rein behind him and Phil and Firmino completing the narrow 3 attacking midfielders.


      Actually reports now suggest he monitored Benteke but didn't actually make a move for him.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #629: Oct 11, 2015 12:13:42 pm
      Actually reports now suggest he monitored Benteke but didn't actually make a move for him.

      Benteke's agent confirmed that Dortmund had contacted Villa in 2013 in regards to a move.

      Maybe Villa said 32 million and they backed out  :f_tongueincheek:
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #630: Oct 19, 2015 08:15:26 pm
      I was really looking forward to Carra's analysis of our game on MNF tonight and it really confirmed what we saw on Saturday. The lads absolutely ran themselves into the ground against Spurs. Not just the increase in running (in KM) but the number of sprints, it went up by something like 130! That's more than 10 per player. Really impressive that Klopp was able to make such an impact in such a short space of time.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #631: Oct 26, 2015 08:14:03 pm
      For anyone interested in the tactics deployed against Saints it's a interesting read.

      http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/10/26/liverpool-southampton-11-klopp-draws-again-with-multiple-formation-changes/
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #632: Oct 27, 2015 11:23:46 am
      Attacking balance, counter-pressing and winning second balls ā€“ Lijnders reveals Kloppā€™s 3 key elements

      Liverpool first-team development coach Pepijn Lijnders has revealed the three key elements new boss JĆ¼rgen Klopp is seeking to instil in his players.

      Lijnders, who was promoted in the summer to begin working with the first-team after impressing at the Academy, appears to be more involved under Klopp, including taking the majority of the pre-match warmup.

      ā€œOne [aspect] that [JĆ¼rgen] tries to implement and that you see is the counter-pressing ā€“ so stopping the counter ā€“ itā€™s a very important part,ā€ he told LiverpoolFC.com.

      ā€œBut before that, I think the main goal thatā€™s difficult to see in the stadium, difficult to see for the fans, is how we move when we have the ball when we are attacking.

      ā€œThe fact that we are organised [and have] what we call attacking balance [means] that we are ready whenever we lose the ball.

      ā€œWe can win it back as quickly as possible and we can apply aggressive pressure because we have enough bodies around it when we are playing.

      ā€œItā€™s difficult to see in the stadium but our balance is getting better and better in terms of when we are attacking.

      ā€œSo we are thinking defensively when we are attacking and the other way around as well of course because of the counter-press.ā€

      The Dutch coach, who worked with PSV Eindhoven and FC Porto before joining Liverpool initially as under-16s coach in 2014, explained more about the concept of ā€˜counter-pressingā€™: ā€œThe moment we lose it we apply aggressive pressure, you see that, everybody wants that.ā€

      The 32-year-old also confirmed Liverpool have been playing 4-3-2-1 in Kloppā€™s opening three games.

      Emphasising the three things Klopp is focussing on in these early weeks, Lijnders reiterated:

      ā€œOne pressing, two getting close, [three] try to win it back, then we can stay high. Thatā€™s what you see, it becomes easier and easier to stay high up the pitch, it becomes easier when we win the ball to play it out to find a free player.

      ā€œLoads of things to improve of course, as always, but if you ask me the things [JĆ¼rgen] is trying to implement in the sessions I think you can see those three things really wellā€

      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #633: Oct 27, 2015 12:17:47 pm
      I'm surprsied this topic hasn't been more active since JĆ¼rgen arrived.

      I'm sensing there's some disappointment around the boards, whether people are tempering their excitement until he's had a few more games or they're waiting for some of our injured players to be fit again or they feel there's no point until the window opens.

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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #634: Oct 27, 2015 12:21:06 pm
      I'm surprsied this topic hasn't been more active since JĆ¼rgen arrived.

      I'm sensing there's some disappointment around the boards, whether people are tempering their excitement until he's had a few more games or they're waiting for some of our injured players to be fit again or they feel there's no point until the window opens.



      It's going to take time to see the full effects.
      Great to see Benteke and Firmino back.
      Solid results to begin with but I expect we will see an upturn very soon.
      Tayls
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #635: Oct 27, 2015 12:23:56 pm
      I'm surprsied this topic hasn't been more active since JĆ¼rgen arrived.

      I'm sensing there's some disappointment around the boards, whether people are tempering their excitement until he's had a few more games or they're waiting for some of our injured players to be fit again or they feel there's no point until the window opens.



      I'm sure we'll see more in here as JK gets the injury list cleared!

      Personally I've been interested in how he's gone from using two CDMs and three AMs behind the striker at Dortmund, to using one holding player, two CMs and then two narrower CAMs behind the 9. I think it's probably down to the players available. We have more central attacking players than wingers, so it makes sense to adjust for the moment.

      Will also be interesting to see how he lines the team up behind a front two, when we eventually have fit strikers.


      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #636: Oct 27, 2015 12:27:37 pm
      I'm surprsied this topic hasn't been more active since JĆ¼rgen arrived.

      I'm sensing there's some disappointment around the boards, whether people are tempering their excitement until he's had a few more games or they're waiting for some of our injured players to be fit again or they feel there's no point until the window opens.

      Trying to build a picture of how we will look when he has his ideas fully implemented.
      So far, not much has changed, but some of the bits I've picked up are interesting.
      We won't be pressing hard for 90 minutes, as some seem to think.
      It looks to me like players are being encouraged to "manage" themselves during a game, so that they know when to press and how hard to press, including cutting down/off passing lanes.
      Become more compact, with less of a gap between the def/mid/forward elements.
      Putting the ball into a specific area for Benteke to attack.
      Loading one wing, then the other to stretch defenses. Particularly noticeable is that early in games both FB's don't bomb on until the opposition is pushed right back. The shape of the team shifts to reflect this, and if you were to draw a line across the defensive elements it would resemble a seesaw motion, as one FB goes forwards, then drops back, then the opposite FB goes forwards etc
      The use of the DM as a fulcrum or pivot, much more than BR did, and more like a proper "volante".
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #637: Oct 27, 2015 01:00:21 pm
      It's going to take time to see the full effects.
      Great to see Benteke and Firmino back.
      Solid results to begin with but I expect we will see an upturn very soon.

      It was always going to take time mate and the new injuries haven't helped with the remodelling process but I'm happy with what I've seen so far.  As you say the upturn will happen soon.

      I'm sure we'll see more in here as JK gets the injury list cleared!

      Personally I've been interested in how he's gone from using two CDMs and three AMs behind the striker at Dortmund, to using one holding player, two CMs and then two narrower CAMs behind the 9. I think it's probably down to the players available. We have more central attacking players than wingers, so it makes sense to adjust for the moment.

      Will also be interesting to see how he lines the team up behind a front two, when we eventually have fit strikers.

      He's definitely tweaked his preferred system to suit what players are available mate.  It's not been pretty but it's been effective in terms of limiting the oppositions scoring options.

      I'm sure things will become clearer as the injured return and he gets a proper look at those who were on the periphery of the team. 

      Do you think he'll go with 2 up top when we finally have striker options?

      Trying to build a picture of how we will look when he has his ideas fully implemented.
      So far, not much has changed, but some of the bits I've picked up are interesting.
      We won't be pressing hard for 90 minutes, as some seem to think.
      It looks to me like players are being encouraged to "manage" themselves during a game, so that they know when to press and how hard to press, including cutting down/off passing lanes.
      Become more compact, with less of a gap between the def/mid/forward elements.
      Putting the ball into a specific area for Benteke to attack.
      Loading one wing, then the other to stretch defenses. Particularly noticeable is that early in games both FB's don't bomb on until the opposition is pushed right back. The shape of the team shifts to reflect this, and if you were to draw a line across the defensive elements it would resemble a seesaw motion, as one FB goes forwards, then drops back, then the opposite FB goes forwards etc
      The use of the DM as a fulcrum or pivot, much more than BR did, and more like a proper "volante".

      Yeah those elements have been there from day one mate and we'll only get better as his methods start to become more natural to the players.

      One thing I'm liking though is there's been no chopping or changing and everyone playing in their natural positions.  I know it's only been 3 games and we've had injuries to contend with but it's been refreshing to see Origi, for example, played as a striker rather than using a non striker to fill in and have to rearrange the other 10 to do so.  He might not be ready yet but at least we now know that he isn't.
      Tayls
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #638: Oct 27, 2015 06:32:10 pm
      He's definitely tweaked his preferred system to suit what players are available mate.  It's not been pretty but it's been effective in terms of limiting the oppositions scoring options.

      I'm sure things will become clearer as the injured return and he gets a proper look at those who were on the periphery of the team. 

      Do you think he'll go with 2 up top when we finally have striker options?



      I think he said something like "if they (strikers) score 5 goals a game we will find a way to set up the team behind them", so I think he knows its a good option but it will be very interesting to see how we line up behind a front two.

      Don't think it'll be his Plan A but definitely a good option to fall back on. Sturridge and Benteke  is a dangerous combination in my view.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #639: Oct 27, 2015 06:55:33 pm
      I think he said something like "if they (strikers) score 5 goals a game we will find a way to set up the team behind them", so I think he knows its a good option but it will be very interesting to see how we line up behind a front two.

      Don't think it'll be his Plan A but definitely a good option to fall back on. Sturridge and Benteke  is a dangerous combination in my view.

      It's definitely an option mate expecially when we have both of them fit and firing.  I guess it also depends how many and how often our 3 AMs are scoring but playing 2 up top should help if we're still struggling for goals.  At least until he buys his perfect No.10 as I'm not sure we have one in our midst apart from possibly Firmino.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #640: Nov 01, 2015 08:04:47 pm
      One thing I have noticed is the structured way in which we press the ball under JĆ¼rgen. Rodgers teams at their best pressed the ball high up the pitch but it could be quite disjointed and we still conceded goals left right and centre. Under Klopp it looks organised, they press in waves and they do it at the right time, and even if the oppo play their way out of the press or switch play we still look organised and able to deal with them despite having bodies further up the field. Really impressed with this aspect, especially in such a short space of time.
      « Last Edit: Nov 01, 2015 11:01:22 pm by Scottbot »
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #641: Nov 01, 2015 08:09:36 pm
      Was impressed with the false 9 thing yesterday, I've rarely seen it be so effective. For much of the first half Cahill and Terry were left looking at each other with absolutely nobody within 30 yards of them, we were quite happy to simply outnumber Chelsea, hold the ball and play around them. I think it was crucial to us taking control of the game, and aside from 10 minutes in the second half prior to our second goal we never looked like giving it up.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #642: Nov 01, 2015 10:27:15 pm
      One thing I have noticed is the structured was in which we press the ball under JĆ¼rgen. Rodgers teams at their best pressed the ball hig up the pitch but it could be quite disjointed and we still conceded goals left right and centre. Under Klopp it looks organised, they press in waves and they do it at the right time, and even if the oppo play their way out of the press or switch play we still look organised and able to deal with them deity having bodies further up the field. Really impressed with this aspect, especially in such a short space of time.

      Spot on Scott.

      Under Brendan the lads would go in 1s and 2s but the concerted team effort and waves as you suggest is what results in turnovers. It used to be so frustrated watch someone do great work only to be let down by someone not doing his job equally well and slacking. You can't press as 1s and 2s it is counter-productive and only serves to stretch your own formation to breaking points.

      Some I believe saw this as the players not playing for Brendan or lack of confidence etc etc but I simply believe they weren't coached correctly. They never knew the moments that they should be on the foot or when they should retreat. Right now it's not perfect, far from it but what we are seeing, as you correctly point out, is the collective approach. It's the soldier mentality and it is without doubt one of the most obvious differences.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #643: Nov 01, 2015 11:52:56 pm
      Spot on Scott.

      Under Brendan the lads would go in 1s and 2s but the concerted team effort and waves as you suggest is what results in turnovers. It used to be so frustrated watch someone do great work only to be let down by someone not doing his job equally well and slacking. You can't press as 1s and 2s it is counter-productive and only serves to stretch your own formation to breaking points.

      Some I believe saw this as the players not playing for Brendan or lack of confidence etc etc but I simply believe they weren't coached correctly. They never knew the moments that they should be on the foot or when they should retreat. Right now it's not perfect, far from it but what we are seeing, as you correctly point out, is the collective approach. It's the soldier mentality and it is without doubt one of the most obvious differences.

      Yes, would agree with the fact we pressed in 1's and 2's under Brendan whereas we are pressing (very evident in the chelsea game), in 3's and 4's.

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