Simon Mignolet Player Thread: > Club Bruges

He's just crap mate, end of.

- you might well be right

He's a goalie, surely there is only one way to play, and that is stop the ball going in to the net.

Surely not at  the top level mate?

He is actually pretty good at stopping the ball going into the net - but you would expect a goalkeeper to be good at stopping shots at semi-pro level. When you get to international level keepers you would expect most of them to save the vast majority of shots hit at them. Mignolet probably saves a handful more than expected out of every hundred shots that go his way.

Since that aspect of their performance is pretty similar, keepers at this level are judged by quite afew other factors - probably the top three being how many mistakes they make, their distribution and their command of the area.

Getting high scores in all those aspects means you have found yourself a competent keeper but now you have to consider what style of keeper they are. Cech, for example, is great with crosses and plays in a solid, conservative way.

Pepe, at his best, was phenomenal with his feet and anticipating the play coming off his line. Playing Pepe instead of Cech therefore meant we could push the defence twenty yards up teh field and compress the space with the ability to launch quick counter attacks as required. N oway we could have done that with Cech who relies on the defence playing a low-block with midfield trackers.

Indeed, it was intersting to see Pepe play behind a poor man's version of Chelsea (which Steve Clarke had developed with Mourinho) substituting Carra for Terry, Lucas for Makalele, Gerrard for Lampard and Carroll for Drogba. It didn't end well.

The entire team is affected by the way the goalie plays.

- you might well be right

Surely not at  the top level mate?

He is actually pretty good at stopping the ball going into the net - but you would expect a goalkeeper to be good at stopping shots at semi-pro level. When you get to international level keepers you would expect most of them to save the vast majority of shots hit at them. Mignolet probably saves a handful more than expected out of every hundred shots that go his way.

Since that aspect of their performance is pretty similar, keepers at this level are judged by quite afew other factors - probably the top three being how many mistakes they make, their distribution and their command of the area.

Getting high scores in all those aspects means you have found yourself a competent keeper but now you have to consider what style of keeper they are. Cech, for example, is great with crosses and plays in a solid, conservative way.

Pepe, at his best, was phenomenal with his feet and anticipating the play coming off his line. Playing Pepe instead of Cech therefore meant we could push the defence twenty yards up teh field and compress the space with the ability to launch quick counter attacks as required. N oway we could have done that with Cech who relies on the defence playing a low-block with midfield trackers.

Indeed, it was intersting to see Pepe play behind a poor man's version of Chelsea (which Steve Clarke had developed with Mourinho) substituting Carra for Terry, Lucas for Makalele, Gerrard for Lampard and Carroll for Drogba. It didn't end well.

The entire team is affected by the way the goalie plays.

He's sh*te at stopping the ball going in the net, he's sh*te at kicking the ball and he's sh*te at catching the ball. His overall game is littered with schoolboy errors that's left a permanent imprint of my palm on my forehead this season, and let's not pretend as if he wasn't a liability last season either, if it we had  a decent keeper last year we would have won the league hands down. Mistake after mistake after mistake, he's a disgrace and should never be seen in red (or purple or whatever) again.

He's sh*te at stopping the ball going in the net, he's sh*te at kicking the ball and he's sh*te at catching the ball. His overall game is littered with schoolboy errors that's left a permanent imprint of my palm on my forehead this season, and let's not pretend as if he wasn't a liability last season either, if it we had  a decent keeper last year we would have won the league hands down. Mistake after mistake after mistake, he's a disgrace and should never be seen in red (or purple or whatever) again.

Fair to say you rate him then

Fair to say you rate him then

Well technically I do rate him... Just not very highly

Obviously our Belgian keeper isn't all what we hoped for, but there is one major problem which I see week in week out and no one really seems to pick up on this. On the odd occasion that he may catch the ball from a set piece he always makes out like he's about to make a quick throw to an attacking player so we can do a quick counter. Something our club in the past has been great at. But this season in particular he goes to throw it out and then doesn't, then 30 seconds later he still has the ball and the opposition's defence are set again and no chance of a counter. It frustrates me so much, we have quick players he could easily try and pick out but he seems to not dare take the risk and instead opts to keep the ball and then do a big kick which 9/10 will go to one of their players anyway. I don't believe there aren't any options for him on the counter at all, so maybe it's a confidence issue. But one thing we did gain when Jones was in net was that counter, in the few games he played, despite letting in goals he could actually distribute the ball pretty well from those situations and if i remember correctly we scored from one, or at least made some decent chances.

We need these quick counters in order to score i believe and just wish he would realize this. Yes there are plenty of problems with the guy, but his distribution for me is the worse, with decent distribution we could maybe outscore opponents like we were doing last season...

Looked like a lamb to the slaughter in that post-match interview yesterday. Shearer saying on M-O-T-D that it was probably an ideal time for Sunderland to face LFC with the problems we have in defence and with our keeper wouldn't have helped matters either.

He's damaged goods as far as I'm concerned and needs getting rid of. Courtois must be laughing his balls off.

Courtois must be laughing his balls off.

It's not nice to laugh at people who are delusional. 

and when Mignolet suggested he should be Belgium's n.1 instead of Courtois, that's exactly what he was---delusional.

Looked like a lamb to the slaughter in that post-match interview yesterday. Shearer saying on M-O-T-D that it was probably an ideal time for Sunderland to face LFC with the problems we have in defence and with our keeper wouldn't have helped matters either.

He's damaged goods as far as I'm concerned and needs getting rid of. Courtois must be laughing his balls off.

I think that after a display that didn't really warrant any critique, it would be cruel to lay into the guy. I've been one of his detractors recently but after a result where he wasn't detrimental to the team and more or less did his job, I think we should just leave this one for now don't you think?

The way he reacted to that Adam Johnson dig that hit the bar was bizarre.

Why on earth was he falling backwards?!

The way he reacted to that Adam Johnson dig that hit the bar was bizarre.

Why on earth was he falling backwards?!

Watching the replay you can see he was totally wrong footed (replay from behind the goal) - the ball too a massive swerve. I know they talk about these modern footballs moving, but yesterday I think was a mix of that and the wind with a bit of fluke thrown in too. Hoenstly, no keeper in the world would have saved that with the movement it made.

I think that after a display that didn't really warrant any critique, it would be cruel to lay into the guy. I've been one of his detractors recently but after a result where he wasn't detrimental to the team and more or less did his job, I think we should just leave this one for now don't you think?

Spot on. Simon actually surprised me with going out for crosses and did well generally. Criticize him when its deserved but its not the case after yesterdays game.

wow, he had one game where he wasn't utter sh*te, stop the presses...

F**k's sake the standards at our club are dropping before our very eyes.

I also think Mignolet is not good enough for the club of our size but ripping into him after a decent display is just silly.

I think that after a display that didn't really warrant any critique, it would be cruel to lay into the guy. I've been one of his detractors recently but after a result where he wasn't detrimental to the team and more or less did his job, I think we should just leave this one for now don't you think?

I think you'll find that I never mentioned his play. I was merely carrying on with the line of his confidence...or very much lack of!

But if you think he should be left alone after a par display upon where he was hardly put to the sword by the mighty Sunderland, then fair enough mate!

our whole system is a mess and it starts with our (lack of) goalie and defensive coaches. we are a terrible football team, hell we haven't defended as a unit for years! this attacking philosophy is leaving our defense crippled and our angry fans are hanging too much sh*t on individuals instead of looking at the big picture. you put lloris in our side and things will go bad within a few games. this is a system problem not a goalie problem.

More clean sheets than De Gea, Curtouis, Lloris, etc.

That only goes on to show that individual players shouldn't be judged by team aggregate statistics. I've made that point for defenders too, especially when used to supposedly show the importance of a said defender in terms of the number of clean sheets (in a very small sample size too), even if that player made mistakes that in another day could've cost us and, in one case, even committed a penalty.

That only goes on to show that individual players shouldn't be judged by team aggregate statistics..

Exactly.  As if somehow if a team keeps a clean sheet it is solely due to the goalkeeper.

This whole Mignolet issue is so embarrassing.  He's been terrible for quite some time now and yet he has one game where he isn't utter sh*te and suddenly everything is fine and we don't need a top keeper anymore.

And apparently it's long forgotten history that if it weren't for SIMON MIGNOLET spilling the ball away at Ludo, we'd be in the knockout stages of the CL right now.

More clean sheets than... Lloris,

Fixed that for you.

That only goes on to show that individual players shouldn't be judged by team aggregate statistics.

You got to wonder why they give the Golden Gloves to the 'keeper with most clean sheets then - especially when there is a better way of measuring performance. I mean; there is; isn't there?

Just out of curiosity - what do we think would be a "better way" to measure goalkeeper performance?  Goals conceded per minutes played? Nah; agg stats. Saves to shots faced ratio maybe? 

Or 'measure' it more subjectively - "Well I think he's good cause I saw it with my own eyes" or... "I remember he dropped a couple" or "It's not his fault every defender, signed by anyone other than Brendan, is sh*te" or "He's absolute sh*te at crosses/kicking/distribution?" or "Clean sheets against crappy attacks shouldn't count"

Joking aside -  let's re-write how we measure how good a 'keeper really is - but when we do... let's stick to it. And that [sticking with one rule] is the key really:wanting to change it any time it doesn't suit or support our argument is a bit transparent really.

You got to wonder why they give the Golden Gloves to the 'keeper with most clean sheets then - especially when there is a better way of measuring performance. I mean; there is; isn't there?

They also hand out awards for top scorers, and that doesn't mean they are necessarily the best strikers in the league.

Joking aside -  let's re-write how we measure how good a 'keeper really is - but when we do... let's stick to it.

Why should we? It's an evolving process. Until not very long ago, there were very few ways to measure football players other than our own eyes or very crude statistics such as number of goals, assists, or clean sheets. Fortunately we're in a much better position these days, but things don't happen overnight. There are people working out ways to measure performance, ways that will always be imperfect, but tend to get better as the information available also gets better. What is pretty clear is that aggregate statistics such as clean sheets are hardly very informative when it comes to a particular individual performance.

They also hand out awards for top scorers, and that doesn't mean they are necessarily the best strikers in the league.

Only the most prolific. Would you change that too? Probably... but only if it suited.

What is pretty clear is that aggregate statistics such as clean sheets are hardly very informative when it comes to a particular individual performance.

You want subjective measurements - I get that. Much easier to argue your point.

I fully understand and concede what you say by the way re: aggregate statistics Diego. I just feel measuring something that is tangible is more accurate than trying to measure ability on opinion. Catch you later.

Only the most prolific. Would you change that too? Probably... but only if it suited.

No, I wouldn't. I think it's fair that top scorers get an award - it's a tradition and it's nice. I like the Gold Glove award too.

What I also wouldn't do is to say Berbatov was the best striker in the league when he won the top scorer award. And I don't think Ben Foster is the best keeper in the Premier League because he got the most clean sheets - especially clean sheets, as they are team statistics, as opposed to goals.

You want subjective measurements - I get that. Much easier to argue your point.

I fully understand and concede what you say by the way re: aggregate statistics Diego. I just feel measuring something that is tangible is more accurate than trying to measure ability on opinion. Catch you later.

No, quite the opposite, I want very objective measurements, that's why I research stuff like this:

http://11tegen11.net/2014/02/03/never-judge-a-goal-keeper-by-his-saves/
http://statsbomb.com/2014/10/goalkeepers-how-repeatable-are-shot-saving-performances/

Which are just two examples of people trying to come out with something meaningful in terms of judging goalkeepers, for instance, and the difficulties in doing that.

As opposed to what you might think, clean sheets are not very objective in terms of measuring individual performance at all. They're pretty much the only number available in the mainstream, but that doesn't mean they're actually informative. Unless, of course, you think Ben Foster is better than De Gea.

Unless, of course, you think Ben Foster is better than De Gea.

Nah mate - I don't, just as I don't believe Simon was, is or ever will be better than Reina. Like I said: I fully understand and concede your point (you must have missed that).

I'm in work so I haven't time to read the articles now but I will do and if they are feasible, I'll happily use them... across the board. Later mate.

Exactly.  As if somehow if a team keeps a clean sheet it is solely due to the goalkeeper.

Of course is isn't solely down to the keeper but when a team keeps a clean sheet, or a series of them, I think it would be foolish to think the goalie didn't play his part.