"We Need To Talk About Gerrard."

Therefore, Gerrard doesn't have a very strong claim for being our greatest player EVER.

This is where we disagree in this discussion Hollywood.

You might not think he has a claim for being our greatest ever player and your're right that it is far from undisputable that he is but I would have him in any debate when considering our greatest ever player and his acheivements and football over his time at the club mean he can be held as one of our greats and many people will have him, quite rightly in their eyes, as the greatest.

This is where we disagree in this discussion Hollywood.

You might not think he has a claim for being our greatest ever player and your're right that it is far from undisputable that he is but I would have him in any debate when considering our greatest ever player and his acheivements and football over his time at the club mean he can be held as one of our greats and many people will have him, quite rightly in their eyes, as the greatest.

I don't think we do disagree though.

I think Gerrard definitely should be in the debate. But I also don't think he has an indisputably strong claim to the title. At least not one I've heard anyway. Apparently pointing that out is heresy and "diminishing his achievements".

I think a lot of people are confusing their favourite player with our greatest player of all time. They do not have to be the same thing.

I don't think we do disagree though.

I think Gerrard definitely should be in the debate. But I don't think he has an indisputably strong claim to the title. At least not one I've heard anyway.

I think a lot of people are confusing their favourite player with our greatest player of all time. They do not have to be the same thing.

Maybe picked you up wrong then.

I think we are on the same lines then.

Any discussion on our greatest ever player will include Gerrard.

Far from indisputable that he is that greatest ever player.

  - So if I say Dalglish is better than Gerrard I'm "diminishing Stevie's achievements" but if YOU say Gerrard is better than Dalglish you're not dimishing Kenny's achievements?  Gotcha.

No. Saying somebody is better than another, is not diminishing that person's achievements.

However, what you're doing to Gerrard is. If you can't see that then there's very little point debating with you. (some would argue there's little point anyway, but there you go)

According to you, the one reason Stevie stands out above all our other players is because "he's the most versatile".

Where did I say that was the one reason? Please, point it out. I'd love to see it.

If you can put forward a convincing case

I've put forward my case. You however, want to diminish Stevie's achievements because he wasn't won a League Title or a World Cup therefore he's completely out of the running.

Souness? Mcmahon? Kenny? Case? Jones? Lucas? Yeats? Smith?

List comprised mainly of hard players, well done.

I'd say only Dalglish is actually mentally stronger than Gerrard though.

Maybe picked you up wrong then.

I think we are on the same lines then.

Any discussion on our greatest ever player will include Gerrard.

Far from indisputable that he is that greatest ever player.

But nobody is indisputably the greatest for us, that's why the discussion rages on.

But nobody is indisputably the greatest for us, that's why the discussion rages on.

True Billy.

No. Saying somebody is better than another, is not diminishing that person's achievements.

However, what you're doing to Gerrard is. If you can't see that then there's very little point debating with you. (some would argue there's little point anyway, but there you go)

Where did I say that was the one reason? Please, point it out. I'd love to see it.

I've put forward my case. You however, want to diminish Stevie's achievements because he wasn't won a League Title or a World Cup therefore he's completely out of the running.

List comprised mainly of hard players, well done.

I'd say only Dalglish is actually mentally stronger than Gerrard though.

– you have already conceded the point I have been making when you said that “no-one” is indisputably the greatest for us.

The only difference between us is that I pointed out the reasons why. 

Took you a while but you got there in the end. Cheers. 

Don't be f**king daft lad.Gerrard isn't revered because he played in sh*t teams, he's revered because of how good he actually is. The fact he was able to carry the sh*t teams he was in (as well as stand out in the very good teams he was in) shows his quality.

Absolutely. We don't need examples of how good he actually is, but if he wasn't such a great player that Hollywood keeps claiming so, then Chelsea, Manc and Real wouldn't have tried to buy him, never mind Stevie captaining the national team.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's the point of a forum, so I am not knocking Hollywood for his view. But I don't like the ridicilous arguments like "yea but LS is a better tackler than SG" or "He lost his head and tried to win the game alone against Chelsea" etc etc etc, where he's constantly picking little examples here and there to "point out" that SG isn't as great a player as we make him out to be.

It's disrespectful to a man who has unquestionably epitomised what our club stands for in the past 15 years out of love and loyalty to the club.

Considering how many great players we've had, someone saying he isn't in their top 3 or top 5 is well within their rights, after all, it's so subjective

Any chance we can get back to discussing the fact that Gerrard is getting slower, more error prone and doesn't really provide a goal threat any more, apart from penalties that is?

It's disrespectful to a man who has unquestionably epitomised what our club stands for in the past 15 years out of love and loyalty to the club.

Painfully true!

Any chance we can get back to discussing the fact that Gerrard is getting slower, more error prone and doesn't really provide a goal threat any more, apart from penalties that is?

Maybe the reason he doesn't offer as much of a goal threat is that he is playing a lot deeper now? Even in his deeper role he still creates chances and makes assists even if his goal scoring has dropped off. I think he had the highest assists of anyone last season?

How many goals did Alonso get for Liverpool in his prime playing in a similar position....3 or 4 a season, Gerrard got 13 goals last season, yes some were penalties but he still gets his fair share of goals for the position he plays AND lots of assists too.

Any chance we can get back to discussing the fact that Gerrard is getting slower, more error prone and doesn't really provide a goal threat any more, apart from penalties that is?

Good point. I'm going to ignore Hollywood's attempts at distracting away from the main issue, he can crave the attention on another, more relevant thread.

Stevie is slower and more error prone these days, I actually agree. I do however think his passing ability, his leadership and organisational skills compensate for these. Would we be a better team without him? Don't think so...not just yet. I tink Hendo and Can need to work together in a few games and Can needs bedding in, with those two forming the protective shield in our midfield. But I'd say it's too soon, perhaps next season.

It's also a hugely important season for us. We have a lot more preassure, a lot more expectation and Champions League games coming up, with not much experience of these from the rest of the team. Stevie's exerience cannot be under-estimated in guiding the youngsters.

In the long term, we cannot afford to be sentimental and SG wouldn't want that anyway. We should plan for a system without him as early as next season - and these discussions are probably going on behind closed doors in management da in day out.

Good point. I'm going to ignore Hollywood's attempts at distracting away from the main issue, he can crave the attention on another, more relevant thread.

Read the thread title again -  my discussion about Stevie's relative strengths and weaknesses is entirely relevant. Whether or not you have anything to say about it is a separate matter.

Any chance we can get back to discussing the fact that Gerrard is getting slower, more error prone and doesn't really provide a goal threat any more, apart from penalties that is?

Yep - that much is certainly beyond doubt. Although he has changed his game, the problem still remains that he is not a naturally canny defensive player and therefore lacks the instincts to play at the base of the midfield without having hard runners surrounding him.

It is no coincidence we shipped so many goals last season - hopefully our Summer purchases will be able to adress the shortfalls in his game. Logically, the position is one of the few places that Brendan was able to put him - and of course we had to change our plan of playing 1433 with sterile domination to do so.

Personally i think the adductor injuries he picked up (plus the infection) have severely hampered the amount of power he is able to generate on acceleration or striking the ball. It's been a while since he was smashing those 35 yard screamers and it is unlikely we will see them more than occasionally in the future.

We need a unsentimental decision soon about his starting place. At the moment, th e high influx of new players means that he remains useful however that will change as the season progresses. I am also sure some consideratino is being given to whether we can extend his carerr by using him as a centre-back.

Read the thread title again -  my discussion about Stevie's relative strengths and weaknesses is entirely relevant. Whether or not you have anything to say about it is a separate matter.


Yep - that much is certainly beyond doubt. Although he has changed his game, the problem still remains that he is not a naturally canny defensive player and therefore lacks the instincts to play at the base of the midfield without having hard runners surrounding him.

It is no coincidence we shipped so many goals last season - hopefully our Summer purchases will be able to adress the shortfalls in his game. Logically, the position is one of the few places that Brendan was able to put him - and of course we had to change our plan of playing 1433 with sterile domination to do so.

Personally i think the adductor injuries he picked up (plus the infection) have severely hampered the amount of power he is able to generate on acceleration or striking the ball. It's been a while since he was smashing those 35 yard screamers and it is unlikely we will see them more than occasionally in the future.

We need a unsentimental decision soon about his starting place. At the moment, th e high influx of new players means that he remains useful however that will change as the season progresses. I am also sure some consideratino is being given to whether we can extend his carerr by using him as a centre-back.

Copycat

Been saying that for a while now, but it seems some don't want to face the fact that those injuries and infections forced a complete change to how he plays.
It's pretty easy to see once you look for it.

- apologies; great minds think alike!

Any chance we can get back to discussing the fact that Gerrard is getting slower, more error prone and doesn't really provide a goal threat any more, apart from penalties that is?

Perhaps we could focus on the fact he is an incredible intermediate and long passer of a football, perhaps the best in the league. I've actually marvelled at how easy Gerrard makes tricky 15-25 yard passes look since he dropped into the deeper midfield position. And he might score a lot of pens but I believe he led us in assists last season which is pretty impressive given the number of goals we scored.

Although Gerrard does pick a pass and has brilliant range of passing. Them long balls that he plays so effortlessly are brilliant to see but from him Imo that isn't what is required.

Instead he needs to be disciplined in his position which he is, he needs to be able to be mobile enough to cover the full backs. This is where my problem is, I am not sure he is up to that part.

I'd rather Gerrard have a partner in midfield so they can manage it between them or even contemplated Gerrard being higher up in a midfield to help us defensively.

      Henderson           Can

                      Gerrard

I think this formation would allow Gerrard to help the attack with his passing qualities but not leave us vulnerable to his lack of mobility.

Gerrard still is learning his new role so we can still give it time, I am impressed with him in parts but I do feel with him their we are defensively vulnerable.

To be honest I don't know out and out what's the best option, just thoughts on it.

I think the skipper actually picks his long passes far better these days than in years gone by when he could be guilty risking rather than retaining possession. He generally keeps things quite simple these days but as I said before, his intermediate passing ie. the weight of pass is top drawer and is often the reason we are able to transition So quickly from defence to attack. Yes he has his limitations in terms of mobility BUT he still makes us tick, even from this deeper position. If posters can't see that then they should watch the game more closely.

Gerrard still is learning his new role so we can still give it time, I am impressed with him in parts but I do feel with him their we are defensively vulnerable.

I think Gerrard first played the role after the Stoke game last season ?

In the first 21 games (up to and including the Stoke game)we scored 51 goals and conceded 26 in the next 17 games we scored 50 goals but conceded 24 But in those 21 games we only gained 42 points while in the next 17 games we gained the same 42 points but obviously in 4 less games .

So while we may concede more as you rightly say with Gerrard in that position,  we also scored more and more importantly gained more points. 

I think Gerrard first played the role after the Stoke game last season ?

In the first 21 games (up to and including the Stoke game)we scored 51 goals and conceded 26 in the next 17 games we scored 50 goals but conceded 24 But in those 21 games we only gained 42 points while in the next 17 games we gained the same 42 points but obviously in 4 less games .

So while we may concede more as you rightly say with Gerrard in that position,  we also scored more and more importantly gained more points. 

Interesting that you've highlighted that mate as it fits perfectly with my perception of how Gerrard has done. I still am not convinced he is the right fit defensively there but am more than happy to accommodate him there because of the benefits we get going forward. So I'm happy that my perception does appear to be backed up by the facts.

Anyone that has the nerve to say "yeah but apart from the penalties" needs to have some respect for how much pressure he must have been under last year to put those away. Time after time they were slotted with such composure that you could't fail but to be impressed and trying to knock that as "just penalties" doesn't do it justice.

I would say that he's started this year a bit shaky when it comes to his passing accuracy, I'm sure that will settle down and he'll start hitting them on a sixpence again soon enough but they've not been up to his usual standards so far.

And it is also important to recognise that our poor defensive record stems from a number of factors, it's lazy to suggest that simply replacing the skipper with a younger more mobile out an out defensive mid would solve our defensive problems.

It wouldn't solve the fact that:

- Our full backs are usually closer to the opposition's goal than our own
- That our centre halves have not played well enough, have made silly errors and have issues from a positional and communication angle
- That we have a keeper who is not nearly assertive or quick enough off his line or as commanding at crosses as he should be

I think Gerrard first played the role after the Stoke game last season ?

In the first 21 games (up to and including the Stoke game)we scored 51 goals and conceded 26 in the next 17 games we scored 50 goals but conceded 24 But in those 21 games we only gained 42 points while in the next 17 games we gained the same 42 points but obviously in 4 less games .

So while we may concede more as you rightly say with Gerrard in that position,  we also scored more and more importantly gained more points. 

True that and I agree he has served us well but I just think with Moreno and Manquillo on each flank we will see Gerrard being called on a lot more defensively than when Johnson and Flanagan were getting up there.