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      Mystified - Alberto, Aspas, Ilori and the £22M

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      Rush
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      Mystified - Alberto, Aspas, Ilori and the £22M
      May 01, 2014 11:10:55 am
      I hope this is in the correct place, if not, mods, feel free to move it

      Aspas, Alberto, Ilori, combined total of around £22m. That's £22,000,000.00p A lot of money.

      Yet one is abroad and the other two?

      Aspas and Alberto don't seem to follow the FSG model of prudent financial competent spends. That's £15m spent on bench warmers. Why, why do this?

      My theory is that transfer committee. I get the feeling they've told Rodgers 'this is what we think you need'. Rodgers has thought 'err...no...' and we're back to a Rafa-Keane-Parry triangle of power struggling again. I.e. If I don't pick them, I'm hardly going to play them!

      It could be Rodgers got it wrong, but surely you need to play these players to find that out? Apart from one or two meaningless games, these players simply haven't been even benched.

      I don't get it

      £15m for....?
      « Last Edit: May 16, 2014 02:05:17 pm by JD »
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #1: May 01, 2014 11:15:13 am
      Some transfers work out

      Some don't

      We don't see them in training every day and the gaffer does

      I'd hope that we shop in slightly different baskets this summer, for where we now are.

      Illori will have a future. Aspas probably won't, I'm not sure about Alberto
      « Last Edit: May 01, 2014 11:27:15 am by Paisleydalglish »
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #2: May 01, 2014 11:25:18 am
      Alberto and Ilori are for the future. FSG want us to invest in the long term, so that we don't have to keep spending huge amounts every season. They want players who are easier to mould, and those are younger players.
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #3: May 01, 2014 02:38:51 pm

      There were also people who questioned spending 8M on a player who couldn't cut it at Inter, and 15M on a Chelsea reject but both of them worked out well.  As others have said, some transfers work out and some don't.  The good thing about both Ilori and Alberto is that they are young and were both relatively inexpensive (I think in the 7M range).  If they don't work out, we can still probably recoup a few mil which means we will only have lost a few mil on one or both of them.  On the flip side, players like Coutinho and Studge have both doubled in value, so the risk/reward of buying young players makes sense to me. 

      For the record, the few times I have seen Ilori in action (or highlights of his performances) have me believing that he is going to be an absolute monster of a CB.  He is tall, strong, fast, and incredibly athletic, but also elegant on the ball, composed in possession, and highly skilled in his passing/distribution.  In 3 years we will look back at him as a huge bargain!! 

      Alberto seems to have the ability, but he may lack the bottle to play in England.  Seems a bit like a better version of Adorjan.  Tons of quality, but no "X" factor (pace, strength, incredible dribbling, etc) to make him a real threat to well organized teams.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #4: May 01, 2014 02:59:50 pm
      If we didn't snap up Ilori when we did, his price would have either skyrocketed or he would have been picked up by somebody else. 21 (20 when we signed him) is very young for a CB. And he clearly has a lot of potential, and as harrydunn08 pointed out, he's got a very good skill set.

      Both Ilori and Alberto feel like another signings based on potential rather than readiness. Alberto seems to be in the Suso situation last year: Too good for u21s, not good enough yet to be in the XI.

      Aspas simply didn't work out as hoped.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #5: May 01, 2014 03:03:40 pm
      If we didn't snap up Ilori when we did, his price would have either skyrocketed or he would have been picked up by somebody else. 21 (20 when we signed him) is very young for a CB. And he clearly has a lot of potential, and as harrydunn08 pointed out, he's got a very good skill set.

      Both Ilori and Alberto feel like another signings based on potential rather than readiness. Alberto seems to be in the Suso situation last year: Too good for u21s, not good enough yet to be in the XI.

      Aspas simply didn't work out as hoped.

      Also Brendan has completely rubbished the price paid for him. Now how much cheaper is anyone's guess. It was sometime before Christmas I think when Brendan suggested the £7m was way over what we paid for him.

      I do get where the OP is coming from though even ignoring that and it's an ongoing issue that I hope is sorted with Brendan's new contract. There's far too long a list of players that haven't made an impact or been given a chance once signed/loaned to think that our transfer committee is working as a cohesive unit, something is not quite right at all and it needs fixing for this Summer.
      s@int
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #6: May 01, 2014 03:07:53 pm
      I hope this is in the correct place, if not, mods, feel free to move it

      Aspas, Alberto, Ilori, combined total of around £22m. That's £22,000,000.00p A lot of money.

      Yet one is abroad and the other two?

      Aspas and Alberto don't seem to follow the FSG model of prudent financial competent spends. That's £15m spent on bench warmers. Why, why do this?

      My theory is that transfer committee. I get the feeling they've told Rodgers 'this is what we think you need'. Rodgers has thought 'err...no...' and we're back to a Rafa-Keane-Parry triangle of power struggling again. I.e. If I don't pick them, I'm hardly going to play them!

      It could be Rodgers got it wrong, but surely you need to play these players to find that out? Apart from one or two meaningless games, these players simply haven't been even benched.

      I don't get it

      £15m for....?

      I agree mate, I don't think Brendan was too pleased with some of our summer signings hence his "no more squad players" stance in January.  I think he has tried to make a point by the limited use he has made of them (and loans). There are also strong rumours that he has demanded more say in transfers in his contract negotiations, but I don't know how true they are?

      I think he probably felt with the small squad he needed better/ more experienced players and has used them more as fill in's rather than full members of the squad for most of the season.
      Swab
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #7: May 01, 2014 04:28:06 pm
      Brendan Rodgers is part of the committee and has the last word on who is brought in.

      He's stated this more than once.

      Why is this so hard to understand?

      The only reason I can think of is people wanting to create an "out" for the manager when a signing he makes isn't up to the job.

      Alberto and Ilori were both bought as development players.

      Aspas I think (just my opinion here) was bought as a squad option, not to play every match.
      He looked pretty good in pre-season matches, but has really struggled with the pace of the league.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #8: May 01, 2014 04:30:31 pm
      Brendan Rodgers is part of the committee and has the last word on who is brought in.

      Yeah Swab, but if you don't like Chicken and you're told to order from Nandos you can't be blamed for leaving your meal either.
      Rush
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #9: May 01, 2014 04:47:20 pm
      Thanks guys for chipping in. Just for the record (re: Swab; it's not a case of me not understanding mate) I'm not criticising Rodgers and the transfer dealings, I'm not really criticising the actual transfer dealings themselves, I was just generally mystified why we'd spend £15m on two players that just don't play or even make the bench on times.

      Thanks all.
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #10: May 01, 2014 04:49:05 pm
      Yeah Swab, but if you don't like Chicken and you're told to order from Nandos you can't be blamed for leaving your meal either.

      Could be an issue that the one BR really wanted didn't fancy us -- Henrick McWhatsisname
      Swab
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #11: May 01, 2014 04:59:32 pm
      Yeah Swab, but if you don't like Chicken and you're told to order from Nandos you can't be blamed for leaving your meal either.

      Thing is mate, BR has also said that he won't spend money for the sake of it.
      So assuming he isn't telling porkies about his role on the committee and him having the last word, I'd suggest that he saw Aspas as a useful option off the bench but wasn't able to foresee how much he would struggle to adapt, which is fair enough.

      Sorry if I seem to express myself a bit forcefully. It's just that I type as I speak, and I'm a blunt bugger ;)

      It sometimes appears to me that when signings work out, people are quick to praise BR (and rightly so) but when they don't work out, well, then it's the fault of the committee, and it never gets mentioned that BR is the man in charge, with the final say.

      Like all managers, he'll get a few transfers wrong.
      I don't see it as a big deal.

      He's a major part of the process, and if people think he gets bullied or coerced into buying players by the rest of the transfer committee, I think they are barking up the wrong tree.
      bigmick
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #12: May 01, 2014 05:26:39 pm
      I think much of the problem with the transfer "committee" is not just the selection of players, it's also that it doesn't appear Brendan has the final say in terms of valuation. Clearly he wanted to sign Mikkiwhatsisface, but then it appeared that we had been outbid either in terms of wages or fee so we didn't get him. It may well have been the lack of Champions League football though, so it didn't seem too big a deal. Then however the boss had his heart set on Willian and made it very clear he was a player he really wanted. It's not hard to see why, and at the time I totally agreed with Brendan's words that he is a "brilliant player", and I've seen nothing to prove me I'm wrong since he's been at Chelsea. Not only is he a top player but he would have fit us like a glove. Then we sorted out Salah who is a similar (though nowhere near as good yet) type of player, and once again we weren't prepared to meet the valuation other teams were. I won't even get into the Konoplyanka situation because although that was a farce, none of us really know if it was our fault or theirs.

      Now I know getting outbid happens to everyone and it's part and parcel. I just think it would make it far easier for the manager if he was told at the outset exactly how much money is at HIS disposal, then HE could make the call as to how much of that budget he was going to blow/spend on one player. Now given we didn't buy anybody else after the Willian pursuit, Brendan could probably argue that if he was 30 million quid then he would have represented a fairly modest overall outlay by the owners. Certainly it is my belief that if we HAD got him we would be a few points better off than we are and would therefore have won the title by now. As it was though the players "value" appeared to be decided by other parties, and I think Brendan ought to have the final say.

      For example, if the boss "only" has 25 million quid to spend in the Summer and spends it ALL on Leilana, then most would agree that the fee is incredibly high (that's not to say though that we shouldn't buy him if Brendan makes the call). If on the other hand we plan to spend 60-70 mill, or indeed even more if Suarez is sold (which I think he will be TBH), then getting in Leilana for 25 mill looks sensible.

      It's a long way of saying IMHO Brendan should be told at the outset what his budget is, then it should be HIS CALL how important a player is to HIS plans and therefore how high he's prepared to go.     
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #13: May 01, 2014 05:28:28 pm
      Thing is mate, BR has also said that he won't spend money for the sake of it.
      So assuming he isn't telling porkies about his role on the committee and him having the last word, I'd suggest that he saw Aspas as a useful option off the bench but wasn't able to foresee how much he would struggle to adapt, which is fair enough.

      Sorry if I seem to express myself a bit forcefully. It's just that I type as I speak, and I'm a blunt bugger ;)

      It sometimes appears to me that when signings work out, people are quick to praise BR (and rightly so) but when they don't work out, well, then it's the fault of the committee, and it never gets mentioned that BR is the man in charge, with the final say.

      Like all managers, he'll get a few transfers wrong.
      I don't see it as a big deal.

      He's a major part of the process, and if people think he gets bullied or coerced into buying players by the rest of the transfer committee, I think they are barking up the wrong tree.

      I totally get your side of the argument Swab and see exactly where you're coming from, also no problem with you speaking forcefully.

      For a start I don't think he's getting bullied or coerced but I do have a strong belief that there is something wrong with our transfer committee judging by the way the players bought have been utilised.

      Sahin was the first to spark the mind, the lad was played out of his natural position from the start with us and moaned like a bi*ch about it. He's since criticised Brendan like a spoilt brat and lost plenty of respect in the process, but what that did do was offer up a couple of possibilities:

      a) He was either bought to play in a different position than his natural one
      or
      b) There was better available and he simply had to adapt

      Well it was Joe Allen that took his role in the team in his (Sahin's) natural position. Now we all know Brendan loves Joe but when it later transpires that Brendan also says that Joe is 10% a better player in the in between of the 3 in midfield it again leaves you confused why Allen and Sahin didn't reverse roles.

      That was just the first, then there was the mystery of Assaidi. The lad virtually never played, there was talk that he was a Dalglish signing and I guess we'll never know for sure so we can move on and assume it was.

      Next there's the likes of Cissokho and Moses, players even the young lads are keeping out of the side. Brendan has been clearly been irritated on a few occasions regarding that attacking left sided player. Whether that is Sigurdsson, Dempsey, Mkhitaryan, Costa, Konoplyanka to be left with only Moses after this long into his tenure just screams to me that while Brendan may have the last say he isn't exactly being offered the most appetising of choices.

      All that is even before Alberto, Ilori and Aspas. There's just too much none use of players that Brendan has supposed signed up that makes me think he's not getting what he's asking for from this committee.

      This is why it remains my only doubt about Brendan and as I've expressed above and before I'm not sure if the doubt actually should be with the man himself. While you seem convinced because of what Brendan has said in the media, I'm more open to the suggestion that while someone is indeed the last word and is part of the committee that doesn't necessarily mean he should carry the full weight of the burden.
      Swab
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #14: May 01, 2014 07:17:02 pm
      I totally get your side of the argument Swab and see exactly where you're coming from, also no problem with you speaking forcefully.

      For a start I don't think he's getting bullied or coerced but I do have a strong belief that there is something wrong with our transfer committee judging by the way the players bought have been utilised.

      Sahin was the first to spark the mind, the lad was played out of his natural position from the start with us and moaned like a bi*ch about it. He's since criticised Brendan like a spoilt brat and lost plenty of respect in the process, but what that did do was offer up a couple of possibilities:

      a) He was either bought to play in a different position than his natural one
      or
      b) There was better available and he simply had to adapt

      Well it was Joe Allen that took his role in the team in his (Sahin's) natural position. Now we all know Brendan loves Joe but when it later transpires that Brendan also says that Joe is 10% a better player in the in between of the 3 in midfield it again leaves you confused why Allen and Sahin didn't reverse roles.

      That was just the first, then there was the mystery of Assaidi. The lad virtually never played, there was talk that he was a Dalglish signing and I guess we'll never know for sure so we can move on and assume it was.

      Next there's the likes of Cissokho and Moses, players even the young lads are keeping out of the side. Brendan has been clearly been irritated on a few occasions regarding that attacking left sided player. Whether that is Sigurdsson, Dempsey, Mkhitaryan, Costa, Konoplyanka to be left with only Moses after this long into his tenure just screams to me that while Brendan may have the last say he isn't exactly being offered the most appetising of choices.

      All that is even before Alberto, Ilori and Aspas. There's just too much none use of players that Brendan has supposed signed up that makes me think he's not getting what he's asking for from this committee.

      This is why it remains my only doubt about Brendan and as I've expressed above and before I'm not sure if the doubt actually should be with the man himself. While you seem convinced because of what Brendan has said in the media, I'm more open to the suggestion that while someone is indeed the last word and is part of the committee that doesn't necessarily mean he should carry the full weight of the burden.

      I'm going to go round the houses a bit with this, but bear with me.

      There was a post a while back about who actually made up the members of the transfer committee, and I remember thinking at the time that the only people with any power were BR and Ayre. That's if my memory is working today and I'm not having another senior moment ;)

      Now, if rumours are true, Ayre has been pulled up by JWH and told to pull his F***ing finger out, which leads me to believe that BR has had a bit of a moan, and JWH has backed him, and rightly so.
      My impression of Ayre in general has never been good. I've said it all along and I stand by it. I think the man's a bit of a spoofer and likes to play politics internally. In fact I'll go a step further and say that he strikes me as a fella who is liable to get involved (needlessly) in power struggles, and fights very hard to protect what he sees as his territory.

      If my impressions of the bloke are correct, or even close to correct then there is a definite issue because on the one hand we have a fella who is very good at bringing in commercial deals, but also very territorial when it comes to the purse strings, which in turn makes for a very tricky situation at the executive level when it comes to weighing the pros and cons of how effective he is in his role.

      On the other side we have BR, who seems to have little interest in the money side of things but appears frustrated by our inability to bring in the players he wants.
      I don't for a second think that money is the only major factor when we have failed to land the players BR wants.
      The other thing we know is that managers, and committees invariably have lists of players who fall into different categories (first team, one for the future, squad player etc), and that they budget for these players according to how much they think the player is worth, which is yet another tricky area.

      Then we have the football side of things.
      A manager can watch all the videos in the world, but they never truly know a player, his capabilities, his strengths, his mentality etc etc until they have trained with them and seen how the player interacts and fits in with his team mates.

      So, going back to the list of Aspas, Alberto and Ilori, I can only really see one player who doesn't seem to fit, and let's be honest here, when he was banging in goals during pre-season, we all had high hopes for him and thought he would do pretty well.
      Then came the reality of the Premier League, and for now we can safely say that he's fallen short of the required quality when he has got on the pitch.

      I'm not sure I'd fault BR for that, because he has proved, to me at least, that he can get the most out of players.

      Alberto and Ilori are both very young, and there is definitely a case to be made for NOT buying good young players and trying to make them into stars when our squad is very thin, but at the same time, if it works out and these players become stars it looks like a stroke of genius at a later date.
      The opposite is true as well, that if they don't develop, the money will be seen as wasted.

      All in all, it strikes me as a bit of a mess, but I think that mess can't be piled at the feet of one person.
      Think of it as a group effort to F**k up.
      Sometimes the wrong players are picked.
      Some players just don't work out for whatever reason.
      Some players are not deemed to be worth the asking price (another F***ing minefield) or wage demands are unrealistic.

      We can add plenty more to that list, but the bottom line is that our transfer woes (if that's what they are) aren't down to one single person, and everyone involved in the process will F**k up at one time or another.

      Lets just be glad federer isn't on the committee, because we'd have paid 50 million for Diame last summer if he was ;)
      Brian78
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #15: May 01, 2014 07:29:55 pm
      Averages out at say 7.25 million each

      7.25 for a young centre half Im hearing is doing very well in la liga and should have an exciting future here

      7.25 for a young midfielder who when seen seems to have a good brain and could be a good player for us in the future

      7.25 for a forward who I don't think has had a chance to play in his favoured position because the best 2 forwards in the league are ahead of him. Possibly wont make it here

      Ill take hit miss signings for those figures every transfer window once were getting the big money deals right
      NZRed
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #16: May 01, 2014 08:19:44 pm
      Of those three, Aspas has been a failure, simply not up to the physicality of EPL life, the other two are works in progress. Every report on Illori is glowing and he could well be the defensive cornerstone long term once he's done his apprenticeship. Luis Alberto hasn't had a huge opportunity to prove himself but hasn't let the team down when given a chance. Hard to say whether he's overpriced for a squad man the way prices are these days.

      Aspas should be out the door in the summer (probably at a big loss financially) with the other two continuing to develop.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #17: May 04, 2014 09:42:28 am
      Some transfers work out right away, some take longer and some never so that aspect never phases me personally.

      Truth is that I've been more concerned by what appears to be the disconnect between what Brendan wants and what he gets from 'the committee'/'the money men'. I don't think it can be denied that Brendan has shown disappointment on a few occasions when we have missed out.

      Using the previous restaurant analogy  ;D: It looks to me that 'the committee' have went out for a meal and ordered up a sh*t load of side-dishes then realised that, when it came to the main course [the part really Brendan wanted], it was either off the menu or they found out they couldn't afford it.

      Still there were a good few side dishes so no-one should go hungry and we can make do; right? The thing is, when it came to the eating, a few of those side-dishes were a bit disappointing or undercooked.

      Next time  'the committee' eats - Brendan should be fed first; the main course ordered then... the sides.

      F**k knows why but I'm starving now... *slips off to grab some breakfast.  ;D
      « Last Edit: May 04, 2014 01:30:44 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Rush
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #18: May 04, 2014 10:22:55 am
      Truth is that I've been more concerned by what appears to be the disconnect between what Brendan wants and what he gets from 'the committee'/'the money men'. I don't think it can be denied that Brendan has shown disappointment on a few occasions when we have missed out.
      Well said BBB, this is exactly what I was trying to say though didn't know it :D
      bigmick
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #19: May 04, 2014 12:50:18 pm
      It's like when you was a kid and wanted your first pair of Addidas "Kick" trainers, and your Mum and Dad bought you a pair from Woollies and your Dad told you "these are probably made in the same factory, just as good!".

      He was wrong, they weren't and they aren't.
      LFC Dynamo
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #20: May 09, 2014 11:31:13 am
      I think Alberto might be good, Aspas and Ilori have to go IMO, give Coates a go.
      Swab
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #21: May 09, 2014 12:49:30 pm
      I think Alberto might be good, Aspas and Ilori have to go IMO, give Coates a go.

      Mate, Ilori is out on loan, doing very well, and is widely regarded as one of the best defensive prospects at the club, plus he's a couple of years younger than Coates.
      racerx34
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      Re: Mystified
      Reply #22: May 09, 2014 01:32:33 pm
      I think if Brendan is given the funds to bring in the first targets we have,
      rather than the fourth or fifth, then we wont be having this discussion.

      It's always going to be a risk signing 7-8 million euro players.

      The ones that would have kept our season on track are the ones we fu**ed
      about with, the 20-30 million euro players.

      Not signing them has ultimately cost us the title.

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