Is our defence REALLY weak or do the attacking tactics leave them exposed...?

Just a thought I had...

I've been worried about our 'leaky' defense all season, as most of us have, and it occurred to me that the really are offered very little protection, for the most part. With the midfielders and strikers pressing and the full-backs often pushed high up the field, is it really a surprise the goals we are conceding? Would the best center-backs in the world be able to deal with this situation?

My thoughts are it's probably a lack absolute top quality at the back combined with the exposure they get. However i feel the defenders available would be good enough with a little bit more support.

On the other hand, i love the attacking football we play, it as been mouthwatering at times and the 'we'll score more than you' mentality is a breath of fresh air in the increasingly tactical and cautious world of football. Therefore do we just have to accept that despite who plays at the back; goals are going to be conceded due to the tactics?

Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this matter....

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

To answer this, someone, (a 100% Nerd), would have to look at each and every one of the goals conceded.

Then decide why they were conceded, break, good build-up play, set pieces, sh*t defending etc, etc.

That's not going to be me.

What is obvious is, we have conceded too many for what ever reason.

I think the key lies in our full backs. We need two top quality full backs who are just as good defending as they are at attacking.

We need two Jordan Henderson's of the full back world.

Steve Clarke.
Ask an expert.

It's a combination of several factors. 

One issue is that our 2 CM's push forward at the same time and at times it is like we have 5 attackers and 2 wide players (our fullbacks) all within 30 yards of their goal leaving only Stevie and our 2 CB's to provide any defensive cover. 

Another issue is that our CB's drop off too quickly at times which leaves too much space between our midfield and defense.  This is down to poor organization and the lack of a leader in our defensive ranks.  I believe that Carra made a point about this after the Palace game. 

The other thing I have noticed is a fitness issue.  We start games fast and strong, but fade as the game wears on.  This has been a noticeable problem from the very beginning of the season, and it has continued on right through the entire campaign.  When Palace put fresh legs on in the 2nd half our defenders looked weary and couldn't keep pace with the likes of Gayle in particular. 

Good-ish defenders, not brilliant. Avg support staff.
Balance of the team inevitably tends towards goals and exciting play (albeit with no plan b). ANd leads to goals conceded.

Kenny's team didnt concede. Nor did it have the goals of the current team.

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

I think it's a bit of both too. To me it's the fallback area that is the problem. The centre backs are often drawn out to cover all well.

In work, on phone, so it would be a bollocks to check but a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

It would be interesting to have a look at some stats.
How many goals did we concede at 40 to 45 mins? How many at 85+ mins.
How many in the 3 games in 8 days periods?
How many headers? How many times beaten for pace? How many times, a defensive error OR a refereeing balls up.

Either way, I think we need to look at how 6 or maybe even 7 players on the pitch can contribute to our defensive setup.
PLUS our subs.

I don't think the tactics are the problem - they've got us to a smidgen of the league title and we would have bitten anyone's hands off for such a position last August. The problem is the lack of quality.

I don't think the real problem is necessarily the centre backs. I think a little bit too much is made of the centre backs deficiencies. What we need is genuinely brilliant full backs who can do the defensive duty. Admittedly, we don't have world class full backs, and though Flanagan has been our best, he's not world class (yet).

More importantly, we need a proven defensive midfielder with pace and penetration. Gerrard has been fantastic, but we can't rely on him all the time next season, and at 34, will struggle with all the demands. We cannot rely on Lucas - do so at your peril. Slow and sluggish in reaction he didn't provide any of the leadership or character to shield us against the Palace onslaught. Sadly, he is a liability now - I would sell him. I'd like to think of the holding midfield role as a plughole of some sorts. A top top quality man in this position would shield the defence.

I agree on the full backs point, I'd much rather us have someone like Steve Finnan there who was solid defensively and knew what to do going forward than our options currently. If we're going to have full backs who want to fly forward that's fair enough but then we're going to need them to be willing to bust a gut getting back aswell and we don't see that. I also think Hendo has proved a huge miss in recent games he covers them so well and Lucas just hasn't the legs to do it.

And finally Mignolet really has to be commanding that box and telling the defenders exactly what to do, he isn't assertive enough. Would be foolish to change the system though, it's put us in this position so it's got to be player quality for me.

We need a Mascherano

We need a Mascherano

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

Nail on head S@int

In work, on phone, so it would be a bollocks to check but a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

2012/13
First 19 games  For - 28  against 26
2nd  19 games  For-  43  against 17

2013/14

First 19 games  For - 44  against 23
2nd  18 games  For - 55 against 26

Looking at those figures I think we may have got the balance between attack and defence slightly off as the season has progressed. Not such a problem while we were winning, but something to look at now we have dropped points.   

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

I could be wrong but it seems a lot of our goal concessions start from out wide or occur because our fullbacks get lazy. Masch wouldn't necessarily help that.

I could be wrong but it seems a lot of our goal concessions start from out wide or occur because our fullbacks get lazy. Masch wouldn't necessarily help that.

That is part of the role of a defensive midfielder mate. As Viera said .... “As a defensive midfielder you must be tactically aware. You’re at the heart of the team so you have to hold everything together and allow other players to express themselves. To do this you need to talk a lot and use your brain, because quite often you have to be in the right place at the right time. You have to cover the gap between the midfield and the back four, cover the left and right full-backs when they go forward and the central defenders when they push further up the pitch.”

So while I agree that sometimes our full backs are "lazy" or maybe just too tired from bombing up and down the pitch, I think if they had a Masch type defensive midfielder covering for them we wouldn't see the same amount of goals from out wide. 

If you watched Masch when he was here before he spent a lot of time covering for Insua for example. Masch was mobile and pretty quick and could get across to cover very well both fullbacks. Someone of that ilk would be ideal if we wanted to improve our defensive performance. It would however reduce our creativity as he wasn't the most creative of players, but he did give others licence to go forward.

Part of our defensive problem at the moment imo is that too often our CB's are getting drawn out to the wings leaving huge gaps in the middle.

Masch was awesome at covering the full backs and you always seen him chasing players into the corners to make crunching tackles.

A Masch type of player does not really fit into our system with Stevie in his Pirlo role and besides to top teams play anymore with that type if player even Masch himself is played as a CB at Barca.
The frailty in our defence is down to our fullbacks being out of position or not having the gas to keep bombing up and down the flanks for 90mins.

... a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

2nd  19 games  For-  43  against 17

2013/14

First 19 games  For - 44  against 23
2nd  18 games  For - 55 against 26

Looking at those figures I think we may have got the balance between attack and defence slightly off as the season has progressed.

Thanks for that s@int.

The second half of last season saw the arrival of Coutinho & Sturridge and our goals tally, per game, rise to 2.26. This season saw the back of Downing [the only 'change' in the attacking unit] and the emergence of young Raheem: with that our goals tally, per game, rose again to 2.60.

One could argue (if they needed to, I suppose) that changes to personnel had little to do with that increase in the 'goals for' tally; that tactics had somehow changed but in my opinion you'd be avoiding the glaringly obvious.

The second half of last season saw a settled, defensive unit, now comfortable with the 'new' style of play. That unit (for the greater part) was Reina; Enrique; Johnson; Carragher; Agger [with Lucas 'in front]. In the last 19 games that 'unit' kept 10 clean sheets and conceded only 17 goals. The defensive unit was pretty solid; maybe more solid than we thought when we remembered early season 'mistakes' and 'blunders'.

This season, be it through injuries or transfers, has seen massive changes to that unit. Again one could argue (if they needed to) that changes in personnel had little to do with the shortage of clean sheets and the increase in 'goals against'; that it's down to tactics but again, in my opinion, you'd be avoiding the obvious.... Personnel.

In my opinion and in answer to the question: our defence is weaker and that is down more to personnel than tactics. Same similar tactics - different personnel.

In my opinion and in answer to the question: our defence is weaker and that is down more to personnel than tactics. Same tactics - different personnel.

Do you think it's down to the actual personnel Mouse or the almost ever changing personnel in that back unit?