Is our defence REALLY weak or do the attacking tactics leave them exposed...?

Just a thought I had...

I've been worried about our 'leaky' defense all season, as most of us have, and it occurred to me that the really are offered very little protection, for the most part. With the midfielders and strikers pressing and the full-backs often pushed high up the field, is it really a surprise the goals we are conceding? Would the best center-backs in the world be able to deal with this situation?

My thoughts are it's probably a lack absolute top quality at the back combined with the exposure they get. However i feel the defenders available would be good enough with a little bit more support.

On the other hand, i love the attacking football we play, it as been mouthwatering at times and the 'we'll score more than you' mentality is a breath of fresh air in the increasingly tactical and cautious world of football. Therefore do we just have to accept that despite who plays at the back; goals are going to be conceded due to the tactics?

Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this matter....

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

To answer this, someone, (a 100% Nerd), would have to look at each and every one of the goals conceded.

Then decide why they were conceded, break, good build-up play, set pieces, sh*t defending etc, etc.

That's not going to be me.

What is obvious is, we have conceded too many for what ever reason.

I think the key lies in our full backs. We need two top quality full backs who are just as good defending as they are at attacking.

We need two Jordan Henderson's of the full back world.

Steve Clarke.
Ask an expert.

It's a combination of several factors. 

One issue is that our 2 CM's push forward at the same time and at times it is like we have 5 attackers and 2 wide players (our fullbacks) all within 30 yards of their goal leaving only Stevie and our 2 CB's to provide any defensive cover. 

Another issue is that our CB's drop off too quickly at times which leaves too much space between our midfield and defense.  This is down to poor organization and the lack of a leader in our defensive ranks.  I believe that Carra made a point about this after the Palace game. 

The other thing I have noticed is a fitness issue.  We start games fast and strong, but fade as the game wears on.  This has been a noticeable problem from the very beginning of the season, and it has continued on right through the entire campaign.  When Palace put fresh legs on in the 2nd half our defenders looked weary and couldn't keep pace with the likes of Gayle in particular. 

Good-ish defenders, not brilliant. Avg support staff.
Balance of the team inevitably tends towards goals and exciting play (albeit with no plan b). ANd leads to goals conceded.

Kenny's team didnt concede. Nor did it have the goals of the current team.

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

I think it's a bit of both too. To me it's the fallback area that is the problem. The centre backs are often drawn out to cover all well.

In work, on phone, so it would be a bollocks to check but a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

It would be interesting to have a look at some stats.
How many goals did we concede at 40 to 45 mins? How many at 85+ mins.
How many in the 3 games in 8 days periods?
How many headers? How many times beaten for pace? How many times, a defensive error OR a refereeing balls up.

Either way, I think we need to look at how 6 or maybe even 7 players on the pitch can contribute to our defensive setup.
PLUS our subs.

I don't think the tactics are the problem - they've got us to a smidgen of the league title and we would have bitten anyone's hands off for such a position last August. The problem is the lack of quality.

I don't think the real problem is necessarily the centre backs. I think a little bit too much is made of the centre backs deficiencies. What we need is genuinely brilliant full backs who can do the defensive duty. Admittedly, we don't have world class full backs, and though Flanagan has been our best, he's not world class (yet).

More importantly, we need a proven defensive midfielder with pace and penetration. Gerrard has been fantastic, but we can't rely on him all the time next season, and at 34, will struggle with all the demands. We cannot rely on Lucas - do so at your peril. Slow and sluggish in reaction he didn't provide any of the leadership or character to shield us against the Palace onslaught. Sadly, he is a liability now - I would sell him. I'd like to think of the holding midfield role as a plughole of some sorts. A top top quality man in this position would shield the defence.

I agree on the full backs point, I'd much rather us have someone like Steve Finnan there who was solid defensively and knew what to do going forward than our options currently. If we're going to have full backs who want to fly forward that's fair enough but then we're going to need them to be willing to bust a gut getting back aswell and we don't see that. I also think Hendo has proved a huge miss in recent games he covers them so well and Lucas just hasn't the legs to do it.

And finally Mignolet really has to be commanding that box and telling the defenders exactly what to do, he isn't assertive enough. Would be foolish to change the system though, it's put us in this position so it's got to be player quality for me.

We need a Mascherano

We need a Mascherano

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

Nail on head S@int

In work, on phone, so it would be a bollocks to check but a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

2012/13
First 19 games  For - 28  against 26
2nd  19 games  For-  43  against 17

2013/14

First 19 games  For - 44  against 23
2nd  18 games  For - 55 against 26

Looking at those figures I think we may have got the balance between attack and defence slightly off as the season has progressed. Not such a problem while we were winning, but something to look at now we have dropped points.   

I think the idea behind a Masch type player is that they will (as Masch did ) provide cover for the full backs. Lucas and even Gerrard no longer have the legs for this and while Henderson and to an extent Stirling have provided cover, it is really the other end of the field that we want them to shine. 

I certainly think it would be advantageous to have a player of Masch's type, if only so we can bring them on to close out games..... once we are 3-0 in front (sorry).

I could be wrong but it seems a lot of our goal concessions start from out wide or occur because our fullbacks get lazy. Masch wouldn't necessarily help that.

I could be wrong but it seems a lot of our goal concessions start from out wide or occur because our fullbacks get lazy. Masch wouldn't necessarily help that.

That is part of the role of a defensive midfielder mate. As Viera said .... “As a defensive midfielder you must be tactically aware. You’re at the heart of the team so you have to hold everything together and allow other players to express themselves. To do this you need to talk a lot and use your brain, because quite often you have to be in the right place at the right time. You have to cover the gap between the midfield and the back four, cover the left and right full-backs when they go forward and the central defenders when they push further up the pitch.”

So while I agree that sometimes our full backs are "lazy" or maybe just too tired from bombing up and down the pitch, I think if they had a Masch type defensive midfielder covering for them we wouldn't see the same amount of goals from out wide. 

If you watched Masch when he was here before he spent a lot of time covering for Insua for example. Masch was mobile and pretty quick and could get across to cover very well both fullbacks. Someone of that ilk would be ideal if we wanted to improve our defensive performance. It would however reduce our creativity as he wasn't the most creative of players, but he did give others licence to go forward.

Part of our defensive problem at the moment imo is that too often our CB's are getting drawn out to the wings leaving huge gaps in the middle.

Masch was awesome at covering the full backs and you always seen him chasing players into the corners to make crunching tackles.

A Masch type of player does not really fit into our system with Stevie in his Pirlo role and besides to top teams play anymore with that type if player even Masch himself is played as a CB at Barca.
The frailty in our defence is down to our fullbacks being out of position or not having the gas to keep bombing up and down the flanks for 90mins.

... a look at our figures from the second half,  of last season, [when we started scoring freely] to see how they compare might help.

Will check later to confirm but off the top of my napper (in terms of clean sheets and goals against) I've a feeling we defended a lot better then.

2nd  19 games  For-  43  against 17

2013/14

First 19 games  For - 44  against 23
2nd  18 games  For - 55 against 26

Looking at those figures I think we may have got the balance between attack and defence slightly off as the season has progressed.

Thanks for that s@int.

The second half of last season saw the arrival of Coutinho & Sturridge and our goals tally, per game, rise to 2.26. This season saw the back of Downing [the only 'change' in the attacking unit] and the emergence of young Raheem: with that our goals tally, per game, rose again to 2.60.

One could argue (if they needed to, I suppose) that changes to personnel had little to do with that increase in the 'goals for' tally; that tactics had somehow changed but in my opinion you'd be avoiding the glaringly obvious.

The second half of last season saw a settled, defensive unit, now comfortable with the 'new' style of play. That unit (for the greater part) was Reina; Enrique; Johnson; Carragher; Agger [with Lucas 'in front]. In the last 19 games that 'unit' kept 10 clean sheets and conceded only 17 goals. The defensive unit was pretty solid; maybe more solid than we thought when we remembered early season 'mistakes' and 'blunders'.

This season, be it through injuries or transfers, has seen massive changes to that unit. Again one could argue (if they needed to) that changes in personnel had little to do with the shortage of clean sheets and the increase in 'goals against'; that it's down to tactics but again, in my opinion, you'd be avoiding the obvious.... Personnel.

In my opinion and in answer to the question: our defence is weaker and that is down more to personnel than tactics. Same similar tactics - different personnel.

In my opinion and in answer to the question: our defence is weaker and that is down more to personnel than tactics. Same tactics - different personnel.

Do you think it's down to the actual personnel Mouse or the almost ever changing personnel in that back unit?

Do you think it's down to the actual personnel Mouse or the almost ever changing personnel in that back unit?

As individuals they're all competent mate. As a unit they are obviously (in my opinion anyhow) not as good as what went before. People might want to debate whether that's down to the constant change and I'd say it's played a very big part; although we also have to remember that a conscious decision to 'shore up' last season's, often maligned, defence was made to much acclaim and praise.

The players who were, perhaps, 'maligned' most in that unit [Reina; Enrique, Lucas and Agger] haven't been playing much or at all this season and their places taken up by others... sometimes through choice; sometimes through necessity. Either way [accident or design/injury or transfer] the facts are - 1: the defence is weaker and 2: personnel has changed.

People can make up their own mind but I don't believe our "attacking tactics" have changed that much in that time. That is why I've reached the (simple, I'll grant you) conclusion I have.

Get steve clarke back in he'll sort em oot. 

As individuals they're all competent mate. As a unit they are obviously (in my opinion anyhow) not as good as what went before. People might want to debate whether that's down to the constant change and I'd say it's played a very big part; although we also have to remember that a conscious decision to 'shore up' last season's, often maligned, defence was made to much acclaim and praise.

The players who were, perhaps, 'maligned' most in that unit [Reina; Enrique, Lucas and Agger] haven't been playing much or at all this season and their places taken up by others... sometimes through choice; sometimes through necessity. Either way [accident or design/injury or transfer] the facts are - 1: the defence is weaker and 2: personnel has changed.

People can make up their own mind but I don't believe our "attacking tactics" have changed that much in that time. That is why I've reached the (simple, I'll grant you) conclusion I have.

I think the influence of Carra had a lot to do with it. He became a regular in the league side in January of the second half of 2013 just at the time we started conceding less. The "other" players (Reina, Enrique, Skrtel,  Lucas and Agger) were all regulars when we conceded many more goals in the first half of 2013.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that since he retired we have started to concede more again ?

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

Agrees.

Our central defenders are not that bad and not much different from City's who have also looked vulnerable at times.

The difference is our 2 central mids v city's.  Hendo and Stevie both look forward first leaving cd exposed. We need a cm like Fernandinho who is primarily defensive letting his partner [Toure] rampage forward. That for me means one of Henderson or Stevie G needs replacing but who as I love them both. My head says we have to look forward and find a long term partner for Henderson but my heart says how can we replace Stevie G.

I'm glad it's BR paid to make these decisions not me.

I think the influence of Carra had a lot to do with it. He became a regular in the league side in January of the second half of 2013 just at the time we started conceding less.

Hard to argue with that mate, given the stats but we must also remember...

The "other" players (Reina, Enrique, Skrtel,  Lucas and Agger) were all regulars when we conceded many more goals in the first half of 2013.

... That in the first half of that season we played a 'new' style of football; ["sterile circulation"?] often passing it for what seemed an age 'round the back five. The players we had were anything but comfortable with that 'tactic'. And, to be fair [when you cast your mind back], those lads actually didn't play together much at the start of that season. 

I would argue (see above) that the arrival of Coutinho and Sturridge was the catalyst which saw the 'change in tactics'; the tactics we use now; quicker, more direct, more attacking. That's why, (when we are talking 'weak defence' V 'attacking tactics') I believe, it is wiser to concentrate on the second half of last season as a comparator.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that since he retired we have started to concede more again ?

Indeed s@int. Perhaps that single change in personnel is the reason the defence is weaker, perhaps the other changes have had an impact too but... it is weaker (in my opinion, of course). 

I don't think it is so much weaker as we've no natural lead/organiser at the back.  The communication between our back five and Gerrard has looked non-existent at times.

Good question to ask, but I think it's been answered one way or another by everyone now.
It's a combination of
1) Tactics that focus on attack, which means players (fullbacks especially) can be caught out of position, and keeping possession (which can lead to errors in your own half)
2) Personnel - Both the fact we don't have the best defence (fullbacks!) and the fact we've not had much of a consistent back four throughout the season.
3) Lack of a 'leader' - I think this shouldn't be underestimated. As s@int points out perhaps it's no coincidence that the defence has consistently looked shaky since Carra retired.

I do think if we had two quality fullbacks this season may have gone a lot differently. The likes of Zabaleta rarely makes an error at the back, is pretty solid and has enormous stamina to get up and down the pitch.

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

Correct Res.
Carra sorely missed. 
Flanno excepted .... we need a whole new back line and a Masher style DM to protect the back four and be first point of breaking up attacks.

Rue the days Mascherano and Alonso went.
Perfect those two.

Rue the days Mascherano and Alonso went. Perfect those two.

I think Gerrard could play the Alonso role to perfection, we just need a Masch type to play beside him.

That in the first half of that season we played a 'new' style of football; ["sterile circulation"?] often passing it for what seemed an age 'round the back five. The players we had were anything but comfortable with that 'tactic'. And, to be fair [when you cast your mind back], those lads actually didn't play together much at the start of that season.  I would argue (see above) that the arrival of Coutinho and Sturridge was the catalyst which saw the 'change in tactics'; the tactics we use now; quicker, more direct, more attacking. That's why, (when we are talking 'weak defence' V 'attacking tactics') I believe, it is wiser to concentrate on the second half of last season as a comparator.

I agree mate, the change once Sturridge and Coutinho arrived was remarkable and I do understand your point about the first half of last season not being as relevant.

Dont mind tactics and formations and mindset. Just watch any game you like and how any members of our back 4 (Flanno less so) back off the man running at them and the space they allow. Frightening

 Flanno has been caught napping once or twice and Johnson's stats are awful I don't know why Brendan will not play Daniel because the stats suggest we do better with him and Martin playing.
I wouldn't want to change the way we play too much because its been a joy to watch us destroying team at Anfield and away too.

Dont mind tactics and formations and mindset. Just watch any game you like and how any members of our back 4 (Flanno less so) back off the man running at them and the space they allow. Frightening

So in answer to the question Bri - tactics or weakness; what do you reckon?

So in answer to the question Bri - tactics or weakness; what do you reckon?

I think its a mental thing or fear the back 4 have of people running at them, Johnson and Skrtel are ridiculous for it. Are they told to back off and leave spaces as a tactic? You could argue depending on what player is running at you but all the time?

I agree mate, the change once Sturridge and Coutinho arrived was remarkable and I do understand your point about the first half of last season not being as relevant.

I had a wee look back s@int. The lads, I mentioned, played together 10 times in the second half [19 games] of the season. They kept 6 clean sheets [60%] and conceded only 7 goals [0.7 per game] in that time.

(In the first half they played only 4 games together - 2 clean sheets [50%] and conceded 5 goals [1.25 per game] btw)

Are they told to back off and leave spaces as a tactic? You could argue depending on what player is running at you but all the time?

I hadn't thought of that Bri but you might have hit on something mate.

I assume you mean leave space in front of them by retreating but what if they are doing that because they are more afraid of leaving space behind; space that Reina used to sweep in? Let's be honest here; Simon doesn't excel in that side of the game (certainly not to the extent Pepe does); maybe the defence is compensating for that fact by dropping deeper?

Interesting spot Bri. 

Masch was awesome at covering the full backs and you always seen him chasing players into the corners to make crunching tackles.

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

Those were some serious tackles Mascherano used to put in. If he played for another team, we'd have hated his guts!

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

loved the little fella would have him back in a heart beat.He has the same willto win that Luis has.

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

Yes we do need a Macsherano type player.

Personally, I'd love to see Gerrard play in a defense minded deep lying playmaking role next to a defensive midfielder. A bit like the Alonso and Masch combination we had. If this happened, I think we would concede less.

In order for this to work, to compensate the lack of speed of Gerrard, I feel the defensive midfielder would have to be pacey , good tackler,  positionally astute and to have an aura (Midfield general type) about him.

Mascherano still has it and It would be a dream to have him back

First of all - good topic.

I think City's forwards are better than ours at winning the ball back.  I've been really impressed with Sterling in chasing the ball back, but Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho are hardly the physical presences that City have up front and I think that is one of the areas of difference.

Kompany is 9 times out of 10 a fantastic defender and fantastic at marshalling his troops.  Although I think Skrtel, Sakho and Agger are good defenders I'm not too sure which one of them is the main man who organises.  This is definitely one of our concerns.

Our keeper does have some issues.  He's a shot stopper - but palming shots out for a corner is a remnant from his Sunderland days.  He needs to be far better at saving balls and preventing corners and the build up of more pressure on to us.

Corners - again not just Mignolet but the whole team are poor at defending set-pieces.

Lastly, Glen Johnson isn't a very good defender - and it's much more noticeable in the bigger games.  He is totally unsuited to playing in a 4 man defence.

I think the attacking play does play a part in it to some degree but some of the goals we have let in have been basic stuff being messed up through individual errors. Two examples straight away in massive games that have cost us is the Gerrard miss control of a simple pass against Chelsea and whatever the hell it was Mignolet was playing at when he let in Negredo's goal at City in December. Our midfield leave our defence exposed far too often but our full backs (more applicable to Johnson) are constantly being caught out of position. I remember one game this season, might have been the Hull defeat (not sure) and Johnson lost the ball in their half and instead of chasing back he literally just strolled back and stood at the half way line whilst they scored. He doesn't get tight enough to the man he should be marking and spends too much time being near the CB's. Skrtel ends up having to go over and cover when Johnson doesn't get back and straight away it leaves a gap for us to be picked off. IMO a confident defence will start by having a confident keeper. When we had Pepe he would bark at his defence, he would clatter through his own players and looked confident where as Mignolet looks like a timid, unconfident mess half the time and I think the defence feed off that. When we are having to defend there is absolutely no composure at all, its just a mad panic to try and get the ball clear, like we are at sixes and sevens. Personally I feel we have been stronger defensively on the left hand side with either Agger or Sakho and Flanno, they seem to be more disciplined and stick to their positions and man. Skrtel has had some very good games this season and looked a rock at the back at times but he has had so many howlers at the same time, own goals, giving it away cheaply or just getting completly done over by the attacker. What worries me is that side for the reasons I've stated about Johnson and Skrtel. But then the way Lucas and Johnson were brutally ripped apart by Palace just emphasised the fact even more that our midfield don't have enough about them to really help out the defence. We need some new additions to the defence and someone like Steve Clarke to come back in and coach them.

Could blame our attacking play but more often than not we have let in pathetic goals that should no way of even been close to happening. We need to cut out the individual errors because they are killing us and if we lose the league on goal difference then we will have only ourselves to blame. Its finding the right balance between attack and defence. A good example of that balance would be Atletico Madrid; they haven't scored the most goals (though they have still scored around 80) and have only let in around 22, 23 I think it is.

The one man we've missed the last few games is Henderson, he has been outstanding for me this Season. Breaking up attacks is his forte and we've missed that, especially against Palace.

I think Johnson has always been a massive liability it's just he used to have Dirk Kuyt covering him out wide when he didn't run his lazy ass back.

I think Johnson has always been a massive liability it's just he used to have Dirk Kuyt covering him out wide when he didn't run his lazy ass back.

The Dirk point is a decent one as he worked his arse off on that side but we play a different way now and Glen has to cover the right side basically by himself at times especially when hendo has been out.

The Dirk point is a decent one as he worked his arse off on that side but we play a different way now and Glen has to cover the right side basically by himself at times especially when hendo has been out.

I think that is a good point mate. It has been noticeable that when we play in a diamond with Henderson further out wide Johnson hasn't seemed the same liability as he has when we have played a "three" in midfield when Henderson has had to do more of his work centrally.

The one man we've missed the last few games is Henderson, he has been outstanding for me this Season. Breaking up attacks is his forte and we've missed that, especially against Palace.

I think where he breaks up attacks is the key thing.
He presses so well and so aggressively, that he breaks up attacks a lot further up the field.

It's interesting how many different opinions there are regarding why we've conceded so many goals this season but if you think back to Brendans own words it's not really surprising.

He stated that to qualify for CL we needed to score more goals so his focus last summer was to work out a way to achieve that.  He tried desperately to add some more attacking players, didn't get them but achieved it anyway.  He changed his training and tactics to make sure we got the best out of our attacking force and that's exactly what's happened.

I believe there is a "method" that coaches/managers go through when taking over a club/team which usually starts with sorting out the defense, make it as watertight as possible then start adding to the attack.  Brendan's done it the other way round.

We failed to buy the attacking options last summer but bought 4 new defensive players instead, Migs, Toure, Sakho and Ilori, he also added Aly on loan.  You could say they haven't strengthened the squad as only Migs has been an ever present, Flanno has emerged from nowhere and Ilori has been sent out on loan.  Whether they are good enough, once the other pieces of the jigsaw are in place, nobody knows but I think we need to stop looking back at how we used to defend, or the players we used to have in defense because we're evolving away from that way of playing.

To keep saying we need a Steve Clarke type defensive coach or a Masch type destroyer to sort out the defense is silly because Brendan doesn't want that style of play.  We only play a deep defensive line because we don't have the players yet to play a high defensive line but that's the way we'll be going, maybe not next season but we will eventually. 

To reiterate, qualifying for the Champions League was our priority target this season, Brendan believed to do that we needed to add more goals, not have a better defense.  We have achieved both. 

Maybe if Brendans priority target was winning the Title this season we would have seen a better defensive performance but then we wouldn't have witnessed the free flowing all out attack we've all enjoyed and might not even have finished top 4.

Despite the amazing season we've had, we're still a work in progress so rather than being disappointed that we've conceded too many goals let's just revel in the fact that we're not far off and that Brendan knows what needs to be done next 

I think we badly missed Henderson and his energy was sorely missed against Chelsea and Crystal Palace.
I'd have liked to have seen Agger feature and maybe go three at the back against Chelsea.
Maybe being a home game prevented that, but I think defensively we are far better with Agger in the back line.

Watching the three games with Lucas and Gerrard in the team together reminded me of our early season form.
Storm off into a lead, run out of legs, get over run in midfield.
Feels like in the City game we won the battle but lost the war.

I also think our system is heavily dependant on the quality of the full backs.
I think we need at least two in the summer.

there or thereabouts all season ran out of steam in the last few games (squad too small).But a fantastic exciting season that gives a lot of hope for next season.
For me the angst of the ownership turmoil the  Kenny sacking have finally been put to bed.

It's not that our defence is to week but I just cant blame anything else than inexperience. When I think about it the title would be ours If we just played  with that amount of risk  away at City and Chelsea. Even without those two games we could have played with less risk at home vs Chelsea. We could have easily gotten a point and play the remaining two games like it's the last days of our lives. But can't bother about could have, would have, if this and if that. It's our attacking style what got us this far so credit to Boss and the lads. Next season CL and we'll get some good players in with the lads that played this will be more matured and better. So lets just go all guns blasing next season again and it will be ours deservedly. We'll be more experienced.

YNWA

leaving one defender back at a corner when you're 3-1 up was naive, the defence needs to be improved but we need to defend better as a team, poor Lucas looked fu**ed after an hour and the mobility towards the end was non existant.

Inability to keep some energy in reserve for the last 20 mins is a factor. Thats' inexperience and naivety

Inability to keep some energy in reserve for the last 20 mins is a factor. Thats' inexperience and naivety

This is also a reflection of the lack of impact our subs make. We need better quality.

  :gt-happyup:To be fair to BR he admitted in the press conference on friday that from last season to this the attacking play needed looking at, so to go from scoring 65-70 odd to nearly 100 fair play to him and this summer he will look at the defence, onwards and upwards ynwa

I think where he breaks up attacks is the key thing.
He presses so well and so aggressively, that he breaks up attacks a lot further up the field.

Exactly what i said after the Chelsea game mate. His presence when Chelsea were counter attacking would have been the key to breaking them down when they opened up.

The defence lacks the leadership Carragher use to have. Someone to organise them and keep them focussed on the game.

At times, you need someone to shout at the others and get them to provide cover when required. That Carragher eye.

A) we need more of a leader in defence who will organise
B) we need a outright DM with a good engine who will sit deep and protect the back 4 wen we are looking to close out games or against big teams
C) we need full backs who have the work rate to be able to get up and down the pitch much quicker

A) we need more of a leader in defence who will organise
B) we need a outright DM with a good engine who will sit deep and protect the back 4 wen we are looking to close out games or against big teams
C) we need full backs who have the work rate to be able to get up and down the pitch much quicker

Brendan doesn't play with a DM. 

Why do you think he's moved Stevie there or why he hasn't used Lucas there when he's been available? 

I agree with you though, we need better fullbacks.

Got a feeling Sakho will become the leader we need at the back.

Exactly what i said after the Chelsea game mate. His presence when Chelsea were counter attacking would have been the key to breaking them down when they opened up.

Are you talking about Henderson here?

I had a horrible feeling when Henderson got sent off against City that we had won the battle and lost the war.
It was a great result, but the resulting 3 game ban for Henderson had me worried.
I think we'd have won the league had he not picked up that ban.

I'm not having a got at Henderson either,
I just think that losing his energy in midfield led us to the early season issues we had with Gerrard and Lucas
getting over run at times with fast counter attacking play. Not just them. I think Henderson was vital in covering
our fullbacks and that was something, against Crystal Palace, that saw us exposed.

Are you talking about Henderson here?

I had a horrible feeling when Henderson got sent off against City that we had won the battle and lost the war.
It was a great result, but the resulting 3 game ban for Henderson had me worried.
I think we'd have won the league had he not picked up that ban.

I'm not having a got at Henderson either,
I just think that losing his energy in midfield led us to the early season issues we had with Gerrard and Lucas
getting over run at times with fast counter attacking play. Not just them. I think Henderson was vital in covering
our fullbacks and that was something, against Crystal Palace, that saw us exposed.

Is right mate. Once Henderson got sent off i felt exactly the same. No offence to Allen or Lucas but they just don't have what Henderson has. Since Henderson was banned we've seen them try and fail. If Henderson had been on the field against Chelsea and Palace we would have won those games. It's all by the by now, so near yet so far.

Nah, we are weak, however you look at it. Also, take into account many teams left their left and right backs close to their goalie, for the sheer terror our forward line inspired. And we still conceeded a lot against those teams too.

The defence lacks leadership. This article has it spot on for me. The problem is not as easy to solve as it sounds though. Leaders like Carra or Terry or Ferdinand are once in a generation players for teams.

Our problems at the back stem from a combination of things that include our attacking play, lack of organisation and vocal leadership at the back from both Mignolet and our center back pairing and also the discipline of our full backs.

I think the key lies in our full backs. We need two top quality full backs who are just as good defending as they are at attacking.

We need two Jordan Henderson's of the full back world.

I would agree with this and add to it.

Skrtl scored 4 own goals and Toure got one as well. Not because they're hapless but because the opposition have managed to get in behind the full backs and whip dangerous balls into the box (ok maybe 1 or 2 ogs were hapless but the point still stands). Flanno has been a revelation but he can still be defensively naiive at times (he's young so all is forgiven). Enrique is a better defender. Johnson is great going forward but not great defending (I was excited about Kelly tbh).

However, we have missed an organizer and a leader in the callibre of Carra and Hyppia. We have conceded far too many goals where a striker has ghosted in unmarked or had too much space (note Palace's last two goals).

we also need to address the issue of a defensive midfielder. Someone with power and pace. We have been having to accomodate Stevie in his new deeper lying role (and he has been fantastic), but it leaves our defence exposed. Lucas isn't the answer and Hendo doesn't have strength or leadership (allbeit he has the energy).

Some decent analysis here

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/15501

we also need to address the issue of a defensive midfielder. Someone with power and pace. We have been having to accomodate Stevie in his new deeper lying role (and he has been fantastic), but it leaves our defence exposed. Lucas isn't the answer and Hendo doesn't have strength or leadership (allbeit he has the energy).

I don't think we have been 'accomodating' Stevie as Brendan has said it is a role he has earmarked for the captain and has said he is the best in Europe there.

I don't think we have been 'accomodating' Stevie as Brendan has said it is a role he has earmarked for the captain and has said he is the best in Europe there.

Is the right answer.

BR is on record saying this, Gerrard himself said exactly the same thing.
I really don't understand where the confusion comes from.

             The title has been lost because we conceded 50 goals.

            Reasons for this was our poor defensive functioning by the side as a whole as well as because of goals  been conceded due to individual mistakes made by the defenders that cost us points.This makes the improvement of the defense quality (RB and CBs especially) more than necessary so it is able to keep pace with the other lines and the side doesn't appear disproportionately different at the back from the midfield and upfront the next season as well.

            More than necessary though should be considered BR's approach in certain matches especially those that we didn't appear capable of handling  a score lead for us particularly towards the end of the season (against city game should be included).BR may have worked on pressing game, quick position alternation or various attacking forms but apparently not on score lead protection which is something he must do to avoid unnecessary point droping. What happened in the past has to be lesson for the future since there is more to learn from a defeat or an unexpected draw than from a win.
           
            Obviously i'd go for both.
           
 
           

Brendan doesn't play with a DM.  Why do you think he's moved Stevie there or why he hasn't used Lucas there when he's been available?  I agree with you though, we need better fullbacks.
                              
                     

I am not sure that you can say that Brendan doesn't play with a DM, he has used a DM more often than not until recently (from the Stoke away game). Maybe it is just that we don't have one that is good enough?

I am sure Gerrard will be a fixture in the deep lying playmaker role next season, not as sure that he won't see a DM playing alongside him ala Alonso and Masch as a way to restrict the flow of goals we are conceding. Certainly it would be a nice option to have.

I think Lucas has struggled this season especially with our faster, more direct, more dynamic style of play. So it has been no surprise to me (and most I would think) that he lost his place in the team.... doesn't mean there is not a place for the right player (Masch or equivalent) who is  more mobile, quicker, more dynamic.

The problem we have is to get the balance between attack and defence right. I don't believe all our defenders have suddenly become crap (although we could improve on some of them ) and maybe a top DM is one way to redress the balance. Maybe if we had scored only 90 goals but conceded less we might have won the league ?

Certainly I believe conceding 50 goals is something we should be looking to improve upon.     

Is the right answer.

BR is on record saying this, Gerrard himself said exactly the same thing.
I really don't understand where the confusion comes from.

Not really a confusion and I udnerstand why he's played Gerrard there. He got the best out of Stevie by using him in a deeper role. I think it's more that he hasn't had the option of a top notch DM to play alongside him.

Lucas hasn't been the same and we've seen that Hendo is much more effective going forward. BR has just been a brilliant manager in using his resourcers to it's full potential.

When I say accomodate, I didn't mean that we had options but preferred to go with Stevie, I mean the system accomodates Stevie. When going forward, it's been brilliant, but defensively we're poor. One of the key missing pieces is a top notch DM to play alongside him.

Seen a few comments about the defence not being the same since Carra retired.

Go back further, our defence hasn't been the same since big Sami left imo

When you play with three forwards, and a primarily attacking mid field, you are always going to get exposed at the back. If we re organise the back 4 and give them more cover from the mid field, we will inevitably be less effective going forward.
It's not wholesale changes that are needed, although there are a few players who seem to be below par. There is a decent starting 11, we just need, (as has been repeatedly said) a vocal leader at the back, a better defensive midfielder, and a more dynamic box to box player. And possible a more confident keeper behind them too.

I dont know. I think we can agree that the defense was shaky and was probably the reason we lost out on the title. But it was our attack minded offense that had us at the top of the table so it was give and take. From what I have read Rodgers is already going after players like Llallana and looking to get Carvalho who will help in the back. Plus, if we can get Mascherano back I think that will solve a lot of our issues in the back, especially if we keep Agger. I think Mascherano would bring stability and close down some of the issues we had on defense.

Their is no question that Rodgers has put together a monster of an attacking offense. This season Liverpool were able to just pick apart defenses. But as we saw it came at a price. If we are to compete again we need a couple of defenders to just close down our back and good enough to feed the ball for those fast breaks.

60% of the time, our defence clears the ball every time

I think Lucas has struggled this season especially with our faster, more direct, more dynamic style of play.

He most certainly did s@int; especially when he was played 'out of position' and not D.M.

With the discussion about whether or not we will play with a DM it would be interesting to see our defensive stats prior to Lucas losing 'his' place [that role] through injury. I know they improved markedly when he returned in the second half of 2012/13 season.

Certainly I believe conceding 50 goals is something we should be looking to improve upon.

For sure buddy. It's a difficult one because, as you rightly point out, it's about balance. If, for example, we found out that the team is better defensively with Lucas as DM or with a Pepe type goalie (for e.g.) but we lose out on some goals: do we tighten the defence? Or do we just accept that the lads who are playing there now [season past] just aren't as good, as a unit, as those who went before?

We missed a good DM, Gerrard is not one. I think Lucas or a good DM is essential in this team.
Lucas has been good whenever he played but BR prefers Gerrard at DM. Gerrard is quite good there when passing but when it comes to protecting the defence, he does too many mistakes or simply cannot defend properly, although his tackles are more than decent.

We need a very good DM for next season and I bet we'll be alright at the back. WE have world class CBs : Agger, Sakho, Skrtel. WE are so lucky to have them here but when you know that the midfield cannot protect you as it should, you will make silly mistakes for sure. Lucas would have never slipped like this against Chelsea, Sakho would ot have passed the ball to the DM if it was a real DM.

Lars Bender please or Mascherano!

Sturridge     Suarez     Sterling

     Hendo        Gerrard
            Mascherano or Bender!

The way we play will always mean we are vulnerable to counter-attacking football, although I think next season we need to be more clinical when we are pressing high up the pitch in the early stages of the game.

Of course, we have seen this on several occasions where we blew Arsenal away in the first 20 mins, but we need to be comfortable with more than just one approach.

If we are able to go 3 - 0 up or so in the first half, we definitely need to learn how to become more compact and close a game out. There is a time to attack and a time to defend.

How many times have we been 2 - 0 up and thinking "We need another goal here to ensure we don't throw this away"?

Glen Johnson definitely leaves us exposed, there is no question in my mind of that. His positional awareness puts a lot of pressure on the rest of the defence and also Gerrard who will have to cover a lot for him.

An unhealthy number of crosses come into the box from down our right hand side too, which again points to a weakness in that area.

Personally, I like my fullbacks to be able to defend first and foremost. That's your bread and butter for the position and you should be able to do that well. Whatever you can offer going forward is a bonus.

The 3rd Crystal Palace goal was a signature example of poor awareness from Johnson and left Skrtel a split second decision as to whether he should try and win the header or drop off with the spare man and try to get a block on any resulting shot that might have come from the ball being brought under control. #

I think Skrtel was between a rock and a hard place in that moment and whatever he decided to do was going to result in them scoring.

In summary....if we are looking to kill teams off early on, we need to ensure we can see the game out and counter attack when the opportunity arises with a good lead in the bag.

Defensively we do need to improve on the exising personnel, although personally I think Johnson is the main issue at the back and the reason we look so out of shape when not in possession.

Hopefully Brendan has something in the pipeline to address this though.

Clearly our defense is weak its there for all to see if it was not the case we wouldn,t have let in so many goals ,but i also feel Migs is part of that problem not nearly vocal enough for me .

Concerning the defensive side.

For those who watch Argentina during the WC and seeing how Masch bosses that midfield and stifling the opposition's attack, does It make you wonder whether Gerrard is the right person to play in that position? Wouldn't our defensive frailties be improved with a pure defensive midfielder?

Not wanting Gerrard to be dropped as I feel he's still has it, but surely not as our main defensive midfielder? I would love to see him play next to an agile quick sitting midfielder to mop up the mistakes and make the simple passes.

With the loss of Suarez, I don't think we can afford to rely on our attack to out score the opposition, and playing Gerrard as the lone defensive midfielder could be a liability?

It's a whole combination of factors to be honest and to suggest hiring Steve Clarke again is missing the point, as his tactics are completely at odds with what Rodgers has in mind for Liverpool.

To begin with, it's obvious that with fullbacks bombing forward all the time, then you are going to be exposed. Much has been made of Johnson's inability to defend, but even consistent performers like Flanagan are not world class defenders (yet...), as his performance against Newcastle at the close of last season showed.

Also, I think everything that has been said about our centre backs has been said! Skrtel, Agger, Sakho and Toure all found themselves as first choice starters at some point, and as a result, it's no surprise there is going to be a lack of coherency, leadership (by which Carra gave) and understanding with the constant turn around in defence. In fairness to Rodgers, it's probably down to the fact that they are not fully ready (Sakho) or that they are just not performing to the standards that they were/are capable of (Skrtel, Agger and Toure). That said, I think it's essential for Sakho to start - he's young, and perhaps sometimes a bit reckless, but on form he is unstoppable. With age and experience comes quality, and I fully expect this to occur with Sakho.

In addition to this, the communication between Mignolet and the centre backs needs to improve drastically. Between defence and goalkeeper, there seems to be a lack of confidence in being able to deal with difficult situations, leading to miscommunication and ultimately a massive f**k up with the opposition scoring. If confidence is a key attribute for a keeper, then expect our keeper to have none if there is no consistency in defence. But Mignolet could rectify this by being a bit more authoritanian to his defence, but likewise with Sakho, surely a bit more experience at the club would do wonders. Is it essential for Sakho and Mignolet to have great seasons this year? Yes, because we are in the Champions League and want to compete for the league again, but if they don't turn it on instantly, then we shouldn't give up hope and sell them because it took Henderson until his third season to show what he's capable of (and likewise, Allen with the second half of last season - a player who I expect big things from next season as he continues to grow).

Lastly, the deeper lying midfielders also have a big role to play in defence - Gerrard and Henderson most notably. While these two players have been our most effective deep lying midfielders, there is a tendency for them to not be the most effective deputies in defence. I say deputies in defence because this is what they are when the full backs go bombing forward on occasions and these two sit back a bit for cover. Now Gerrard is not the most mobile player these days, and Henderson, for all his great pressing, usually sits a bit higher than Gerrard. Once Gerrard is exposed, he is often beaten due to his lack of pace. His lack of pace today also hinders his pressing abilities. Now considering that our fullbacks aren't the best defenders, and our holding midfielder isn't the greatest of defenders either shows just how vulnerable the centre backs are. I'm not trying to defend the centre backs from some truly horrific showings at times, but the more the centre backs are exposed, then the more they are likely to make mistakes.

I can see Emre Can being moulded as Gerrard's successor in that position. He tackles really well and also covers a lot of ground quickly, giving him some great pressing ability. Interestingly, often Allen came on for us last season and sured up a result. I may be going on a bit too much about pressing here, but Allen is a great presser and he times it brilliantly very often, showing great awareness and anticipation of the ball. It often takes a cool head to stabilise everything and I think Joe Allen is one of those rare men in our squad, because even Gerrard can be susceptible to losing his head and becoming a bit wild when things don't seem to be going our way. This is not a rant saying Gerrard should be dropped, because there is nobody better in our team who starts the attacks which we watched in awe last season, it's just about finding a balance, and I feel the added depth could give us the balance and the flexibility by which Brendan can change things around if matches begin to turn against us.

Whatever the case, massive improvements needs to be made at full back and holding midfield to sure up the defence. Central defence is an issue but even if issues at full back and the holding midfield position can be ironed out, then I genuinely believe we can still get away with our central defence - who we all know can perform better.