Is our defence REALLY weak or do the attacking tactics leave them exposed...?

Do you think it's down to the actual personnel Mouse or the almost ever changing personnel in that back unit?

As individuals they're all competent mate. As a unit they are obviously (in my opinion anyhow) not as good as what went before. People might want to debate whether that's down to the constant change and I'd say it's played a very big part; although we also have to remember that a conscious decision to 'shore up' last season's, often maligned, defence was made to much acclaim and praise.

The players who were, perhaps, 'maligned' most in that unit [Reina; Enrique, Lucas and Agger] haven't been playing much or at all this season and their places taken up by others... sometimes through choice; sometimes through necessity. Either way [accident or design/injury or transfer] the facts are - 1: the defence is weaker and 2: personnel has changed.

People can make up their own mind but I don't believe our "attacking tactics" have changed that much in that time. That is why I've reached the (simple, I'll grant you) conclusion I have.

Get steve clarke back in he'll sort em oot. 

As individuals they're all competent mate. As a unit they are obviously (in my opinion anyhow) not as good as what went before. People might want to debate whether that's down to the constant change and I'd say it's played a very big part; although we also have to remember that a conscious decision to 'shore up' last season's, often maligned, defence was made to much acclaim and praise.

The players who were, perhaps, 'maligned' most in that unit [Reina; Enrique, Lucas and Agger] haven't been playing much or at all this season and their places taken up by others... sometimes through choice; sometimes through necessity. Either way [accident or design/injury or transfer] the facts are - 1: the defence is weaker and 2: personnel has changed.

People can make up their own mind but I don't believe our "attacking tactics" have changed that much in that time. That is why I've reached the (simple, I'll grant you) conclusion I have.

I think the influence of Carra had a lot to do with it. He became a regular in the league side in January of the second half of 2013 just at the time we started conceding less. The "other" players (Reina, Enrique, Skrtel,  Lucas and Agger) were all regulars when we conceded many more goals in the first half of 2013.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that since he retired we have started to concede more again ?

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

Agrees.

Our central defenders are not that bad and not much different from City's who have also looked vulnerable at times.

The difference is our 2 central mids v city's.  Hendo and Stevie both look forward first leaving cd exposed. We need a cm like Fernandinho who is primarily defensive letting his partner [Toure] rampage forward. That for me means one of Henderson or Stevie G needs replacing but who as I love them both. My head says we have to look forward and find a long term partner for Henderson but my heart says how can we replace Stevie G.

I'm glad it's BR paid to make these decisions not me.

I think the influence of Carra had a lot to do with it. He became a regular in the league side in January of the second half of 2013 just at the time we started conceding less.

Hard to argue with that mate, given the stats but we must also remember...

The "other" players (Reina, Enrique, Skrtel,  Lucas and Agger) were all regulars when we conceded many more goals in the first half of 2013.

... That in the first half of that season we played a 'new' style of football; ["sterile circulation"?] often passing it for what seemed an age 'round the back five. The players we had were anything but comfortable with that 'tactic'. And, to be fair [when you cast your mind back], those lads actually didn't play together much at the start of that season. 

I would argue (see above) that the arrival of Coutinho and Sturridge was the catalyst which saw the 'change in tactics'; the tactics we use now; quicker, more direct, more attacking. That's why, (when we are talking 'weak defence' V 'attacking tactics') I believe, it is wiser to concentrate on the second half of last season as a comparator.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that since he retired we have started to concede more again ?

Indeed s@int. Perhaps that single change in personnel is the reason the defence is weaker, perhaps the other changes have had an impact too but... it is weaker (in my opinion, of course). 

I don't think it is so much weaker as we've no natural lead/organiser at the back.  The communication between our back five and Gerrard has looked non-existent at times.

Good question to ask, but I think it's been answered one way or another by everyone now.
It's a combination of
1) Tactics that focus on attack, which means players (fullbacks especially) can be caught out of position, and keeping possession (which can lead to errors in your own half)
2) Personnel - Both the fact we don't have the best defence (fullbacks!) and the fact we've not had much of a consistent back four throughout the season.
3) Lack of a 'leader' - I think this shouldn't be underestimated. As s@int points out perhaps it's no coincidence that the defence has consistently looked shaky since Carra retired.

I do think if we had two quality fullbacks this season may have gone a lot differently. The likes of Zabaleta rarely makes an error at the back, is pretty solid and has enormous stamina to get up and down the pitch.

It is a bit of both, but Man City commit just as many forward as we do at times and never seem that exposed at the back.

We just need to bring in an organiser & leader and we'll be golden.

Correct Res.
Carra sorely missed. 
Flanno excepted .... we need a whole new back line and a Masher style DM to protect the back four and be first point of breaking up attacks.

Rue the days Mascherano and Alonso went.
Perfect those two.

Rue the days Mascherano and Alonso went. Perfect those two.

I think Gerrard could play the Alonso role to perfection, we just need a Masch type to play beside him.

That in the first half of that season we played a 'new' style of football; ["sterile circulation"?] often passing it for what seemed an age 'round the back five. The players we had were anything but comfortable with that 'tactic'. And, to be fair [when you cast your mind back], those lads actually didn't play together much at the start of that season.  I would argue (see above) that the arrival of Coutinho and Sturridge was the catalyst which saw the 'change in tactics'; the tactics we use now; quicker, more direct, more attacking. That's why, (when we are talking 'weak defence' V 'attacking tactics') I believe, it is wiser to concentrate on the second half of last season as a comparator.

I agree mate, the change once Sturridge and Coutinho arrived was remarkable and I do understand your point about the first half of last season not being as relevant.

Dont mind tactics and formations and mindset. Just watch any game you like and how any members of our back 4 (Flanno less so) back off the man running at them and the space they allow. Frightening

 Flanno has been caught napping once or twice and Johnson's stats are awful I don't know why Brendan will not play Daniel because the stats suggest we do better with him and Martin playing.
I wouldn't want to change the way we play too much because its been a joy to watch us destroying team at Anfield and away too.

Dont mind tactics and formations and mindset. Just watch any game you like and how any members of our back 4 (Flanno less so) back off the man running at them and the space they allow. Frightening

So in answer to the question Bri - tactics or weakness; what do you reckon?

So in answer to the question Bri - tactics or weakness; what do you reckon?

I think its a mental thing or fear the back 4 have of people running at them, Johnson and Skrtel are ridiculous for it. Are they told to back off and leave spaces as a tactic? You could argue depending on what player is running at you but all the time?

I agree mate, the change once Sturridge and Coutinho arrived was remarkable and I do understand your point about the first half of last season not being as relevant.

I had a wee look back s@int. The lads, I mentioned, played together 10 times in the second half [19 games] of the season. They kept 6 clean sheets [60%] and conceded only 7 goals [0.7 per game] in that time.

(In the first half they played only 4 games together - 2 clean sheets [50%] and conceded 5 goals [1.25 per game] btw)

Are they told to back off and leave spaces as a tactic? You could argue depending on what player is running at you but all the time?

I hadn't thought of that Bri but you might have hit on something mate.

I assume you mean leave space in front of them by retreating but what if they are doing that because they are more afraid of leaving space behind; space that Reina used to sweep in? Let's be honest here; Simon doesn't excel in that side of the game (certainly not to the extent Pepe does); maybe the defence is compensating for that fact by dropping deeper?

Interesting spot Bri. 

Masch was awesome at covering the full backs and you always seen him chasing players into the corners to make crunching tackles.

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

Those were some serious tackles Mascherano used to put in. If he played for another team, we'd have hated his guts!

Agree with that. Monster Masch!

















And my all time fav!!!!

loved the little fella would have him back in a heart beat.He has the same willto win that Luis has.

We actually don't. We need Fullbacks (especially on the right) that know when to bomb forward and will bust a gut to get back and defend.

If I'm not mistaken, Glen Johnson was in some way to blame for every goal conceeded to Palace.

Yes we do need a Macsherano type player.

Personally, I'd love to see Gerrard play in a defense minded deep lying playmaking role next to a defensive midfielder. A bit like the Alonso and Masch combination we had. If this happened, I think we would concede less.

In order for this to work, to compensate the lack of speed of Gerrard, I feel the defensive midfielder would have to be pacey , good tackler,  positionally astute and to have an aura (Midfield general type) about him.

Mascherano still has it and It would be a dream to have him back

First of all - good topic.

I think City's forwards are better than ours at winning the ball back.  I've been really impressed with Sterling in chasing the ball back, but Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho are hardly the physical presences that City have up front and I think that is one of the areas of difference.

Kompany is 9 times out of 10 a fantastic defender and fantastic at marshalling his troops.  Although I think Skrtel, Sakho and Agger are good defenders I'm not too sure which one of them is the main man who organises.  This is definitely one of our concerns.

Our keeper does have some issues.  He's a shot stopper - but palming shots out for a corner is a remnant from his Sunderland days.  He needs to be far better at saving balls and preventing corners and the build up of more pressure on to us.

Corners - again not just Mignolet but the whole team are poor at defending set-pieces.

Lastly, Glen Johnson isn't a very good defender - and it's much more noticeable in the bigger games.  He is totally unsuited to playing in a 4 man defence.

I think the attacking play does play a part in it to some degree but some of the goals we have let in have been basic stuff being messed up through individual errors. Two examples straight away in massive games that have cost us is the Gerrard miss control of a simple pass against Chelsea and whatever the hell it was Mignolet was playing at when he let in Negredo's goal at City in December. Our midfield leave our defence exposed far too often but our full backs (more applicable to Johnson) are constantly being caught out of position. I remember one game this season, might have been the Hull defeat (not sure) and Johnson lost the ball in their half and instead of chasing back he literally just strolled back and stood at the half way line whilst they scored. He doesn't get tight enough to the man he should be marking and spends too much time being near the CB's. Skrtel ends up having to go over and cover when Johnson doesn't get back and straight away it leaves a gap for us to be picked off. IMO a confident defence will start by having a confident keeper. When we had Pepe he would bark at his defence, he would clatter through his own players and looked confident where as Mignolet looks like a timid, unconfident mess half the time and I think the defence feed off that. When we are having to defend there is absolutely no composure at all, its just a mad panic to try and get the ball clear, like we are at sixes and sevens. Personally I feel we have been stronger defensively on the left hand side with either Agger or Sakho and Flanno, they seem to be more disciplined and stick to their positions and man. Skrtel has had some very good games this season and looked a rock at the back at times but he has had so many howlers at the same time, own goals, giving it away cheaply or just getting completly done over by the attacker. What worries me is that side for the reasons I've stated about Johnson and Skrtel. But then the way Lucas and Johnson were brutally ripped apart by Palace just emphasised the fact even more that our midfield don't have enough about them to really help out the defence. We need some new additions to the defence and someone like Steve Clarke to come back in and coach them.

Could blame our attacking play but more often than not we have let in pathetic goals that should no way of even been close to happening. We need to cut out the individual errors because they are killing us and if we lose the league on goal difference then we will have only ourselves to blame. Its finding the right balance between attack and defence. A good example of that balance would be Atletico Madrid; they haven't scored the most goals (though they have still scored around 80) and have only let in around 22, 23 I think it is.

The one man we've missed the last few games is Henderson, he has been outstanding for me this Season. Breaking up attacks is his forte and we've missed that, especially against Palace.

I think Johnson has always been a massive liability it's just he used to have Dirk Kuyt covering him out wide when he didn't run his lazy ass back.