Emre Can (Liverpool > Juventus)

The rest of the time it was just simple sideways or backwards passing - the sort of stuff that, when done by the likes of Allen, Henderson or Milner, gets heavily criticized.

This is not to say he wasn't good - in fact, I have nothing against quick sideways passing - I just wonder if people do not judge performances based too much on reputations or clichés.

People like to think of Can as a classy deep lying playmaker so they see one even if it's not there (in this game I mean).
People think of Milner as a wasteful piece of sh*t so they complain about him repeatedly on the match thread and have real difficulty in giving him any praise even after the match, despite the fact he created two of our goals and could have ended the game with at least 4 assists (taking nothing away from the fact his corners really were sh*te).

Watching the 2nd half performance closely actually shows you that Milner actually rarely if ever wasted possession during those 45 minutes, created at least 4 goal scoring opportunities and covered for Moreno AND Clyne on a number of occasions. But hey, he's the English workhorse, not the German classy playmaker...

Just an excerpt from a really good neutral piece. It got me thinking, I watched the game again and you are 100% right mate - good call Diego. 

Gutted for young Can, the team and Jürgen.

The last time we suffered this many injuries, to senior midfielders, at this point in the season, was 2011/12. Yeah, we have more depth this time round but we had no big games left then... fingers crossed.

People think of Milner as a wasteful piece of sh*t

That's what I'm talking about - this is not really fair. I voted him MOTM based on his 2nd half performance, as this is the part of the game I've watched again closely - the first half I only half watched, half listened to at work - so I understand I don't have the full picture. But to say he was crap for 80 minutes is a wide exaggeration. No one was more involved in our play in a half we scored 4 goals, both defensively and offensively, than him.

Look at the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29wqhh1UiIk

His 1st half really was inconsistent and he gives away some quite poor passes, although even then he created what was probably our very best chance in that half through his individual effort alone and help from no one. He actually spreads the ball wide a few times decently as well.

Then watch his 2nd half contribution. He participated well in defense and attack and rarely misplaced a pass. He had one poor cross but no one gets all crosses right. His other crosses from open play were generally very dangerous. He was actively involved throughout the whole of the 2nd half, tried to get involved in most plays running everywhere (which is part of the role he plays, differently to Can, so comparisons are always a bit misleading) and deservedly ended the game with two assists - which could have been 3 or 4. Defensively I saw him cover for both fullbacks on occasions.

Just as an example of how easily he's turned into a scapegoat when things are not going well, Milner made ONE backward pass in the entire second half when he was in the defensive half with no one to pass to and this is the comment he got on the match thread:

There's no denying Milner's corners were sh*t though. But then again so were Gerrard's most of the time and I've never loved him less for that. Just change the corner takers more often FFS.

This is Can's video by the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jakBJX8ux4c

With the ball on his feet he was actually probably better in the 1st half then the 2nd, but the team was doing far worse and emotions get the better of reason in evaluating the player. I love the ball he tried to play to Moreno by the way, Alonso used to do that quite often. It didn't quite come through but it was a decent effort.

As much as people will refuse to admit you're spot on. Like others I'll moan at the likes of Milner and Lallana in the match thread but I'm no analyst. When I put it all out there and think logically I can see that there must be a reason he is getting picked - Klopp and a load of other managers obviously see something that my eye doesn't as easily. Klopp made sure Milner stayed on that pitch the other night as although he doesn't flick the ball over his head he offers something our other midfielders don't. And it paid off.

With Can, well he has bags of potential but anything good he does is exaggerated hugely no matter how trivial and most people will ignore his mistakes. The German wonder kid who has bags of potential and is very young so will only get better has a lot more appeal than the boring and English James Milner.

On the flipside you've got Alberto Moreno who can go through games without putting a foot wrong and not get a mention but then get lambasted for a daft tackle by the same people who would be waxing lyrical if it was Jon Flanagan calling him a hard b***ard.  The same people will then pull the head off it if Nathanial Clyne plays a 20 yard pass from right back to midfield.

I've probably been guilty of it myself but I'm getting better and I'm comfortable with accepting that I get more analytics wrong than I do right. Some people, though, will convince themselves that what they said six months ago is actually happening when it isn't and try to convince others the same.

There's no doubt that it will be interesting to see how Jürgen addresses what may be called a dilemma now that young Can is out.  Usually, when it comes to this time of the season, most teams have done all their rotation and tend to play all the remaining matches [run in] with their preferred/best starting XI.

Sadly Jürgen won't have that luxury with two of his preferred starters out. Will he go 'tried and tested' - i.e. best XI in every game or will he run the risk of instability (and all the problems it brings) by rotating? Either way; it's an interesting subplot to an already exciting 'run in'.

As much as people will refuse to admit you're spot on. Like others I'll moan at the likes of Milner and Lallana in the match thread but I'm no analyst. When I put it all out there and think logically I can see that there must be a reason he is getting picked - Klopp and a load of other managers obviously see something that my eye doesn't as easily. Klopp made sure Milner stayed on that pitch the other night as although he doesn't flick the ball over his head he offers something our other midfielders don't. And it paid off.

Jürgen has made no secret he wants delivery in to the box from wide areas and there's not many better than Milner in England right now. But that still doesn't mean he should be playing central. It's more of a reason for him to occupy the wide areas.

Just look at the first goal Dortmund score (forgive my pathetic Paint skills ). I'm in no way blaming him for the goal by the way, just showing why he isn't a centre mid. Coutinho and Moreno are linking up on the left and he should be on the inside in the pocket of space (highlighted by the red box) to provide an outlet for them to pass and then reposition themselves or run upfield in to space but instead, he's running upfield in a channel that Firmino and Moreno would be running in to instead as that's their role.

Firmino is circled in black to show he's going to make the run that Milner is, but Milner is going there anyway instead of being where the red box is which is his duty as the central midfielder.



Instead, he's up field in a spot he shouldn't be and then when Dortmund get the ball back, look at where he is, look at where Emre Can has been dragged to and look at where Kagawa runs the ball to - the space that Emre leaves open as he's covering the space Milner leaves wide open because he makes a run of a winger, not a central midfielder 40 yards up the field. In the meantime, Milner is always at least 10 yards away from where he should be because he makes the wrong run in attack.



Milner should be a right winger and nothing else, in my opinion. He doesn't press properly, he makes the wrong movements and his passing isn't good enough. His strength is his ability to run and cross and that's why he is an effective winger.

Jürgen has made no secret he wants delivery in to the box from wide areas and there's not many better than Milner in England right now. But that still doesn't mean he should be playing central. It's more of a reason for him to occupy the wide areas.

Just look at the first goal Dortmund score (forgive my pathetic Paint skills ). I'm in no way blaming him for the goal by the way, just showing why he isn't a centre mid. Coutinho and Moreno are linking up on the left and he should be on the inside in the pocket of space (highlighted by the red box) to provide an outlet for them to pass and then reposition themselves or run upfield in to space but instead, he's running upfield in a channel that Firmino and Moreno would be running in to instead as that's their role.

Firmino is circled in black to show he's going to make the run that Milner is, but Milner is going there anyway instead of being where the red box is which is his duty as the central midfielder.



Instead, he's up field in a spot he shouldn't be and then when Dortmund get the ball back, look at where he is, look at where Emre Can has been dragged to and look at where Kagawa runs the ball to - the space that Emre leaves open as he's covering the space Milner leaves wide open because he makes a run of a winger, not a central midfielder 40 yards up the field. In the meantime, Milner is always at least 10 yards away from where he should be because he makes the wrong run in attack.



Milner should be a right winger and nothing else, in my opinion. He doesn't press properly, he makes the wrong movements and his passing isn't good enough. His strength is his ability to run and cross and that's why he is an effective winger.

F***ing hell.

****quotes, copy and pastes, joins another forum****

As much as people will refuse to admit you're spot on. Like others I'll moan at the likes of Milner and Lallana in the match thread but I'm no analyst. When I put it all out there and think logically I can see that there must be a reason he is getting picked - Klopp and a load of other managers obviously see something that my eye doesn't as easily. Klopp made sure Milner stayed on that pitch the other night as although he doesn't flick the ball over his head he offers something our other midfielders don't. And it paid off.

With Can, well he has bags of potential but anything good he does is exaggerated hugely no matter how trivial and most people will ignore his mistakes. The German wonder kid who has bags of potential and is very young so will only get better has a lot more appeal than the boring and English James Milner.

On the flipside you've got Alberto Moreno who can go through games without putting a foot wrong and not get a mention but then get lambasted for a daft tackle by the same people who would be waxing lyrical if it was Jon Flanagan calling him a hard b***ard.  The same people will then pull the head off it if Nathanial Clyne plays a 20 yard pass from right back to midfield.

I've probably been guilty of it myself but I'm getting better and I'm comfortable with accepting that I get more analytics wrong than I do right. Some people, though, will convince themselves that what they said six months ago is actually happening when it isn't and try to convince others the same.

Well, from someone who thinks Can blows hot and cold, my opinion remains the same. I thought Can was class the other night and not because he's German or for any other silly projection like that.

Yes, he made some mistakes but his presence was felt, and his ability to retain possession in tight areas with great footwork, as well as breaking up their attacks was excellent to watch.

I agree with you about Moreno too, I thought he had a very very good game and was another one of our better performers who characterised the tenacity, passion and desire, like his manager does from the sideline. He was impressive IMHO.

F***ing hell.

****quotes, copy and pastes, joins another forum****

No need to join another forum mate.

Just copy n paste it, put your name on it, then email it to Jürgen... remind him that he needs to play James in his best position or, at the very least; that he needs to tell him to stay wide.  A new job beckons.

No need to join another forum mate.

Just copy n paste it, put your name on it, then email it to Jürgen... remind him that he needs to play James in his best position or, at the very least; that he needs to tell him to stay wide.  A new job beckons.

I think he knows, mate. Milly has played on the right almost exclusively, except for some games through necessity.

As much as people will refuse to admit you're spot on. Like others I'll moan at the likes of Milner and Lallana in the match thread but I'm no analyst. When I put it all out there and think logically I can see that there must be a reason he is getting picked - Klopp and a load of other managers obviously see something that my eye doesn't as easily. Klopp made sure Milner stayed on that pitch the other night as although he doesn't flick the ball over his head he offers something our other midfielders don't. And it paid off.

With Can, well he has bags of potential but anything good he does is exaggerated hugely no matter how trivial and most people will ignore his mistakes. The German wonder kid who has bags of potential and is very young so will only get better has a lot more appeal than the boring and English James Milner.

On the flipside you've got Alberto Moreno who can go through games without putting a foot wrong and not get a mention but then get lambasted for a daft tackle by the same people who would be waxing lyrical if it was Jon Flanagan calling him a hard b***ard.  The same people will then pull the head off it if Nathanial Clyne plays a 20 yard pass from right back to midfield.

I've probably been guilty of it myself but I'm getting better and I'm comfortable with accepting that I get more analytics wrong than I do right. Some people, though, will convince themselves that what they said six months ago is actually happening when it isn't and try to convince others the same.

Agree Diego definitely has a point, I thought Can was decent all game but only on reviewing the vid Diego posted up did I realise just how good a first half he had, the score and current state of the game will always have an influence as none of us on here are impartial so our emotions are invested and will always cloud judgement to some degree.

Also totally understand your point regarding Moreno, absolutely merit in that.

As for Crouchy's post, a cracking bit of work that, top stuff.

I think he knows, mate. Milly has played on the right almost exclusively, except for some games through necessity.

I'm under no doubt about that. No need for me to panic then. 

Just pray to god we have the strength and depth to deal with this injury. Allen and Stewart's time to shine - come on lads!

I'm under no doubt about that. No need for me to panic then. 

Happy for you.

I'll have to disagree on this bit, mate.

The first half he got blasted for it in thread and it was painful to see him constantly fail to hit a short pass. His pressing left us wide open as he'd commit to closing down a player and, just like Henderson, he'd overcommit and with two passes Dortmund were able to slice through us. Emre Can is then left alone to cover 4 marauding Dortmund players and it exposes our backline at the same time.

He wants to play that central role but he's so clumsy receiving and releasing the ball that it was either going to a Dortmund player, or he'd fall on his ass as he was playing the pass. I don't think i'm being blinkered in that assessment, either.

As i said before, his assists deserve a lot of credit and he's effective with the numbers he's posting (more assists than anyone in our team this season) but i don't think we can progress as much as we want to if he's the one responsible for controlling a game. If he played on the right i think he would be just as effective and we could have a proper midfielder in the middle.

This video of their first goal shows why i don't think he's very good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmMZO-BbgH0

What does he expect Firmino to do in the middle of a swarm of defenders when he plays the pass? He loses it right away as you'd expect and Dortmund go the other end and score.

Its not like Coutinho's error for their first goal where its just a lack of concentration, Milner plays the ball where he wants it to go and its a very poor decision.

He also played a pass in the first half where i think it was Reus (could be wrong) was covering a potential pass from Milner to Clyne to release the fullback and despite the Dortmund player being clearly in Milner's site, he still plays the ball and the Dortmund player is less than a foot away from intercepting the ball and running one on one v Lovren.

I don't think many will disagree that he's not a central midfielder mate, which is related to what I've said in this or maybe another thread of players being asked to do too much.

If Milner only stays quiet in the middle of the park, passing safely to keep us ticking, people will say our midfield is crap, that we have no creativity, and I could see Can and Milner getting destroyed on a match thread (like Can was supposedly sh*t in the 1st half but doesn't really look that way to me tbh). That's because we played quite an attacking formation with little balance, and still needed Milner of all people to create our very best chances.

I'd rather have a more stable central midfield with a player capable of creating from deep and let Milner do the running in the wide areas, or else he'll frequently try to press, cover for fullbacks and attack all at the same time and at one point he's likely to be caught up in the middle of something, either defensively or offensively.

I'm not taking responsibility away from the player for his decision making but I think the way we were set up did not help. Can is given a clear role near the central defenders which any player is far more likely to look better in there, but even he is often asked to do more than he should when we're struggling to create and he tries to bomb forward, usually to little effect.

In the 2nd half in particular, Milner rarely lost the ball and in a half we scored 4, he was actively involved in at least 3 if I'm not mistaken.

Emre to score the winner in the EL final.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-boosted-update-emre-11228768

Looks like there is a chance he could be back for the Thursday game. He has been missed.


http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/666415/Liverpool-Midfielder-Emre-Can-Contention-Start-Villarreal-Europa-League-Semi-Final-News

Wow.  He could be back already?

That would be vital for us.  He's so much more of a miss than Henderson or Sakho.

But I worry if he is coming back too soon.  No point rushing him back and risking further injury.  He's going to be essential for us next season.

Looks like there is a chance he could be back for the Thursday game. He has been missed.


http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/666415/Liverpool-Midfielder-Emre-Can-Contention-Start-Villarreal-Europa-League-Semi-Final-News

um, wtf? :O

But I worry if he is coming back too soon.  No point rushing him back and risking further injury.

And I agree, if he's not 100% fit, I don't think we should risk it.

Looks like there is a chance he could be back for the Thursday game. He has been missed.


http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/666415/Liverpool-Midfielder-Emre-Can-Contention-Start-Villarreal-Europa-League-Semi-Final-News

This might just be the best news I've heard for a good few weeks.

Surely not! What an unexpected boost that would be, though.

I wouldn't risk him unless they're entirely sure he could get through it unscathed. It's not like we can't get through with Lucas and Allen in the middle.

If he's fit he plays.

Emre Can Can !

If he's fit he plays.

Yep.