World class players or "the system"?

Not sure if theres a right or wrong answer to this but I do want to see opinions on it.

I don't partake much at all in the transfer talk but I do have a look at time to time at whats in the rumour mill both here and in various other websites. Some brilliant names being linked and some good names and good prospects.

Take for example Fabregas. Stories of us looking at him. Are they true? Who knows but what interests me and is the reason Im creating the topic, is the split it causes amongst supporters. Whats the split?

Outlook 1) He's a world class player snap him up, we'd be mad not to

Outlook 2) He doesn't fit the system that the team play and therefore were better not going for him and getting in Lallana for example.

There's also the thought that we don't traditionally buy in ready made world class players rather that they become world class when playing here.

So I'm interested in your opinions on this. From your viewpoint should we sign world class players who don't or might not fit our system or should we sign players only who are ready made to fit in to our style?

And I've only used Fabregas and Lallana as examples please don't limit the thread to those 2 and arguments over the 2 of them

That's a decent post.

I feel underwhelmed somewhat by the players we are linked with. It is no myth that we spend big in the transfer market. I also think we spend rather badly in the transfer market. When you look at our best XI from last season, you'd have to say the only new additions to the squad are Mignolet, Coutinho and Sturridge. I feel these are terrific players and have helped us accumulate more points, especially Sturridge. I have no doubt that Brendan is a fantastic coach - just look at how Luis, Daniel and Hendo have flourished under him. There is also the rise of Raheem Sterling, who fits into this system perfectly.

What I find most frustrating is Brendan's penchant for an unproven youngster. I feel we have overspent on the likes of Luis Alberto, Fabio Borini and Tiago Ilori. I also feel that if these players do remain with the club, they will not improve us. I've watched all of them. I personally cannot see it, but maybe Brendan can.

I know people have slated Willian, but he would've hit the ground running at Liverpool. He would have fitted our system perfectly. At Chelsea he is being utilised as a hardworking attacker, but here he would be an outlet and a creator of play. We were linked with two other outstanding players in Micky and Costa. We were in no position to secure them but showed great ambition to. Now we are in that position, so I find the links to such players as Emre Can, Steven Caulker, Ryan Bertrand and even Adam Lallana underwhelming. I understand maybe some players will not fit our system due to not being a hard enough worker, but it's that quality that we need.

I will refuse to question Brendan's ability as a coach, but as a scout in the transfer market I will. But, if Brendan is that good a manager and a footballer is that good a footballer, then surely the ability to adapt and fit our system is more than possible. However you look at it, Fabregas would improve us as a team. He'd have a field day threading balls through to our attackers. That's what quality will offer you.

Good question, I think the thing about this topic is that everyone gets excited about the prospect of bringing in a ready made, world class talent with the thought that they'll immediately make the entire team better. And in some cases that's probably true. But at the end of the day, there are factors that have to be managed by the club concerning a player fitting in with the rest of the squad. There are budgets to adhere to, egos to stroke and worry about with other players, I suppose tactics comes into play.

It seems that Brendan is resigned to the fact that he won't just be able to go out and buy a top class player for every position, he's just not going to have that kind of depth....so he appears to be looking at hard working players that are flexible and can be plugged in a multitude of places. That probably enables him to use the budget he has (who knows what it is) and get better quality for more positions.

I think I'm like anyone else...if you gave me a choice between buying a shiny new Ferrari vs. a Corvette that's got a few years and miles on it and maybe won't get the looks that the Ferrari gets I'd pick the Ferrari.....but with Ferrari ownership comes a lot of other "headaches" that you might not have with the Chevy and if at the end of the day...the Corvette gets the job done almost as good...was it really necessary to buy the Ferrari in the first place?

That's a decent post.

I feel underwhelmed somewhat by the players we are linked with. It is no myth that we spend big in the transfer market. I also think we spend rather badly in the transfer market. When you look at our best XI from last season, you'd have to say the only new additions to the squad are Mignolet, Coutinho and Sturridge. I feel these are terrific players and have helped us accumulate more points, especially Sturridge. I have no doubt that Brendan is a fantastic coach - just look at how Luis, Daniel and Hendo have flourished under him. There is also the rise of Raheem Sterling, who fits into this system perfectly.

What I find most frustrating is Brendan's penchant for an unproven youngster. I feel we have overspent on the likes of Luis Alberto, Fabio Borini and Tiago Ilori. I also feel that if these players do remain with the club, they will not improve us. I've watched all of them. I personally cannot see it, but maybe Brendan can.

I know people have slated Willian, but he would've hit the ground running at Liverpool. He would have fitted our system perfectly. At Chelsea he is being utilised as a hardworking attacker, but here he would be an outlet and a creator of play. We were linked with two other outstanding players in Micky and Costa. We were in no position to secure them but showed great ambition to. Now we are in that position, so I find the links to such players as Emre Can, Steven Caulker, Ryan Bertrand and even Adam Lallana underwhelming. I understand maybe some players will not fit our system due to not being a hard enough worker, but it's that quality that we need.

I will refuse to question Brendan's ability as a coach, but as a scout in the transfer market I will. But, if Brendan is that good a manager and a footballer is that good a footballer, then surely the ability to adapt and fit our system is more than possible. However you look at it, Fabregas would improve us as a team. He'd have a field day threading balls through to our attackers. That's what quality will offer you.

How in the world can you say that Ilori and Alberto won't improve the team? They've hardly (in Ilori's case never) played with the starters. Some of your assertions are mind blowing...they really are. So if you never want to buy players for the future, how do you ever make sure that you have kids coming through in numbers enough to feed the first team, because the academy alone isn't likely to supply enough players to replenish players that move on.

On one hand you don't think Brendan gets it right on transfers...then you turn around and praise Sturridge, Coutinho and Willian (Brendan wanted him and it wasn't his fault he didn't get him). Amazing logic being thrown around here.

Fabregas would improve us as a team. He'd have a field day threading balls through to our attackers. That's what quality will offer you.

Yes and the other team would have a field day with the fact that he doesn't do a tenth of the tracking back and chasing that Lallana does. One thing you can see in most of Brendan's signings, starters and targets is a willingness to work hard and do the things that not everyone is willing to do.

And I've only used Fabregas and Lallana as examples please don't limit the thread to those 2 and arguments over the 2 of them

Well that lasted for 3 posts.......

How in the world can you say that Ilori and Alberto won't improve the team? They've hardly (in Ilori's case never) played with the starters. Some of your assertions are mind blowing...they really are. So if you never want to buy players for the future, how do you ever make sure that you have kids coming through in numbers enough to feed the first team, because the academy alone isn't likely to supply enough players to replenish players that move on.

On one hand you don't think Brendan gets it right on transfers...then you turn around and praise Sturridge, Coutinho and Willian (Brendan wanted him and it wasn't his fault he didn't get him). Amazing logic being thrown around here.

I actually did imply that Brendan did get it right with Coutinho and Sturridge, did I not?

When you look at his transfer history at the club, you cannot exactly say it has been a success.

How in the world can you say that Ilori and Alberto won't improve the team? They've hardly (in Ilori's case never) played with the starters. Some of your assertions are mind blowing...they really are.

I didn't say they will NOT improve the team, I said I feel that they will not improve the team. Do you not see the distinction there? It's called an opinion, something I am totally entitled to have. From what I have seen of them, regardless how limited time they have played, I have not been convinced and maybe Brendan hasn't either. Time will tell.

So if you never want to buy players for the future, how do you ever make sure that you have kids coming through in numbers enough to feed the first team, because the academy alone isn't likely to supply enough players to replenish players that move on.

Did I actually say that I didn't want us to buy players for the future? I obviously made my frustrations known about Brendan buying unproven youngsters when personally I feel at this moment, building on the present should be the priority.

So the academy alone isn't likely to supply enough players to replenish those who move on eh? How on earth can you say that when they've hardly played with the starters yet?!! Some of your responses I find mind blowing, too.

World class players can fit into any system..

World class players can fit into any system..

That's why the Galactico's won the European Cup every year for a decade... oh wait. 

Mind you, I have a personal, fairly stict definition of World Class (and 'Legend' as well) and both terms are applied so loosely by some, nowadays, as to be virtually meaningless, in my eyes.

That's why the Galactico's won the European Cup every year for a decade... oh wait. 

Mind you, I have a personal, fairly stict definition of World Class (and 'Legend' as well) and both terms are applied so loosely by some, nowadays, as to be virtually meaningless, in my eyes.

Yes, I've heard people call Gareth Bale world class, at what exactly, being a Ronaldo wannabee...

The two aren't mutually exclusive though both cases are arguable separately - who we'd call 'top' players / will a player fit our system. For me though, 'top' players can fit into any system - that is why they are the best. Guys that walk into virtually any first XI. Again, people can argue about who are 'top' players, and there aren't many (relatively) that I'd put in that category.
This summer BR has the opportunity deal at a higher level in the transfer market. So far with Lambert and Emre we have definitely strengthened on last season - but will they be regular first XI, guys that will take the first team up a notch? Eg. a top FB would walk into the side. Interesting summer ahead.

Definitely the system has a lot more of a say than people give it credit for. I mean you have to look at a player like Juan Mata. Clearly one of the best players in the league on his day. But absolutely useless in Moyes' system. A player like Joe Allen thrives in our team but I would imagine he wouldn't fit in with Chelsea's side.

I must admit I cringe when I hear people saying we should be going after world class players. I'm not sure why. Maybe its an arrogance on my part that we make players world class rather than sign them. I think maybe my dislike of the way City and Chelsea do business, and given the season we have had this year. I had so much pride in the fact that we have a smaller wage bill smaller transfer fees etc. I think if that changed we wouldn't be as special to me. I'm not sure if that makes sense, its been a long, long day. Top post though and good discussion.

World class players can fit into any system..

You're right mate, they can but they'll be an even better player in the right system.  They can also look forlorn and lost when shoehorned into the wrong system.  There's been more than the odd one that's moved to a Club and not really hit the dizzy heights that were expected, then moved again and become the star they were.

To answer the OP, personally I'd go for the right players for the system than a better player who isn't right for the system, unless you're going to change the system to suit the player, then what's the point 

World class is a marketing term. Who wouldn't sign quality. However I'm sure we all differ in who we think quality is.

Example do we want the Bale roadshow. Every match waiting for Bale to sprint the length of the pitch and not feeling happy if he doesn't. The new breed of fan joining our ranks. I don't think anyone wants that. Ibrahimovic ..Ronaldo... No way. Reus, Varane, ... Yes.

Good OP.

I doubt there is a definitive answer either way but the first player who popped into my head when reading the OP was Sahin. A world class (considered by some), or "cultured" midfielder really struggled to make an impact at LFC. Of course there are loads of variables as to why we didn't get much out of him but given his stature as a footballer he ultimately failed to make the type of impact a player of his quality should.

He clearly didn't have the adaptability to fit into the "system" Rodgers played, or what was asked of him. With a manager (visionary) like Rodgers, I would say that his "system" comes first and the players he looks for, be it world class or otherwise fit into that system and complement each other. Players like Gerrard and Suarez who incidental are world class can play different positions that fit into the manager's system, that doesn't mean that adaptability alone is a factor in determining a world class player, although it is a massive bonus if such a player can play numerous positions very well.

Although I said that I doubt there is a definitive answer to this question, you can swing it in favour of the system (and you could do this the opposite way too) if you merely look at our performance in the league last year. Arguably we finished above Chelsea who some may argue have more world class players in their squad than us, tie this to Maureen's negative system; then compare it to our player's and system and it could reasonably be argued that as much as it was our players who finished above Chelsea, it was also the system that allowed the slightly "lesser" world class quality players to achieve a better league position.

Good topic though.

I think to BR the system and type of player is more important than reputation.  I remember one of the first interviews he did as our manager when he talked about they types of players he likes to sign - one of the things he looks for is their hunger and desire.

The other thing is the definition of "world class".  Personally I have my own definition, which is if we were creating one international type squad from the players playing at this time who would make it - this limits my thinking to say 23 players, but to me there is a difference between this and just very good players.

Well, It'd definitely be players that fit in the system and compliment those teammates who know more about what the manager is teaching in training.

An analogy- Does world class now mean someone who simply has a bit of rep coz he happens to be at a rich club and also has a team focused on providing him with the service to seem more amazing than he actually really is.
  That's not the analogy, the analogy is - say, you know of a great musician. Who, you know has brilliant mastery of his instrument and you appreciate what practice and natural skill looks/sounds like...
But..
... Some new metro sexual skinny jean wearing fucks are more popular, sell more, get credit when they actually do F**k all and have their songs made for them hire the best studios. Because they are more revered in numbers; does that make them better than the master craftsmen of a musician?


Anyway the first sentence was my answer.

World class players should be able to play in any system, hence why they are considered the best in the game.

World class players should be able to play in any system, hence why they are considered the best in the game.

Ronaldo is viewed to be one of 5 at the pinnacle of world class, I personally wouldn't have him near our team or dressing room because his attitude is self righteous and not conducive to a coherent full bonded band of brothers team.

Ronaldo is viewed to be one of 5 at the pinnacle of world class, I personally wouldn't have him near our team or dressing room because his attitude is self righteous and not conducive to a coherent full bonded band of brothers team.

I would agree with you, hes an arrogant "its all about me" pr**k and i never want to see him in a Liverpool shirt.  That doesn't detract from my point though. The arguments on this thread are whether to look at people that fit in the system, or world class players. A true world class player can play anywhere.

Back to the Ronaldo example; hes world class, he could play anywhere across the front line, hes not restricted to a system. I wouldn't like to see him in our team, but would he succeed in it, if he was brought in? You'd be a fool to think he wouldn't.

I would agree with you, hes an arrogant "its all about me" pr**k and i never want to see him in a Liverpool shirt.  That doesn't detract from my point though. The arguments on this thread are whether to look at people that fit in the system, or world class players. A true world class player can play anywhere.

Back to the Ronaldo example; hes world class, he could play anywhere across the front line, hes not restricted to a system. I wouldn't like to see him in our team, but would he succeed in it, if he was brought in? You'd be a fool to think he wouldn't.

I know what you mean and meant.
I wrote something thoughtful on the subject but my internet went berserk and I erased it forever haha
It's bad when that happens, it stings in the worst way.

I think it's good to make up-and-coming new players world class too, so hopefully the coaches can do that.
Pick the right men n that.

Imagine having tons of egos floating around, stropping around the pitch, all wanting the limelight, hogging the ball etc

Some world class players don't need that brand of arrogance to succeed to the highest levels, they just train hard and do what they do best, keep learning with the least amount of fuss or wannabe pop star antics.


Like Suarez, Messi, Aguero, Zabaleta, Cech, Gerrard and so on, all players with the drive and determination and belief in themselves, but they just get on with it.
Not batshit nutz like a Gazza type of footballer.

I'm tired, think I'm going to bed.

World Class players can a system better see Barca, a system can make World Class players look worse see Mourinho's Madrid.

Double edged Sword really, don't think Rodgers system requires World Class players as such, 'The team is the star' but then again, stick a world class back 5 in front of our midfield and forwards and we'd have won the league at a canter last season.

Playing a system implies that they're robots, or just one dimensional. Changing  personnel to execute the same system, and it still goes wrong means that it's the system which is wrong.  Now..... having the players who can see if the system is going wrong, and adapt, or use their own  nous instead of being robots, that to  me is a world class player.  Whether or or not the manager see's this is a matter of opinion. but if he cant we're f**ked.

yeah i'm more of a system 2 person. you shouldn't go after a world class player just because he's available. he needs to fit in with what you're doing. i mean rodgers has a hard enough time looking for the puzzle pieces he needs now, it's pretty hard to find some world class talent out there that ticks all the specific boxes BR is looking for in whatever role that may be.

World class players should be able to play in any system, hence why they are considered the best in the game.

they should be but I don't reckon they can. just because they're considered and hyped up to be 'world class' doesn't mean they have a complete game, doesn't mean they are complete players. eden hazard is considered world class but if you put him in our system he would not track back and he would cause problems, the rest of the team would need to cater for him and you can't be catering for wingers when you already are for the strikers.

yes, i'm very much a fan of buying the right player and ignoring whatever hyped up player is on the market, unless they are right for us.

All I know is I don't want want to back in a position where we rely on one star player or two to make up for the lapses in quality or focus of the rest of the team.
I'd rather a team than a one man show.

Well the answer to the question is pretty simple. If it's a choice between the two we go for the system as there's simply no way we can afford to be buying World Class Players who don't fit.

However, what we need is to invest in players at an early stage who BECOME world class and fit perfectly into the system.

However, what we need is to invest in players at an early stage who BECOME world class and fit perfectly into the system.

When you figure out how to do that, you can move onto who shot JFK, then work out Sponge-bobs crabby patty formula ...

When you figure out how to do that, you can move onto who shot JFK, then work out Sponge-bobs crabby patty formula ...

We have a long history of doing precisely that - most notably with Kenny i would say. More recently I'd say we have done it with Suarez. We have done it with Gerrard and Alonso. We are likely to do it with Sturridge. Same goes for Sterling and I have high hopes for Coutinho and Sakho too.

So the question for us isn't figuring out how to do it - the question is how to do it consistently.

yeah i'm more of a system 2 person. you shouldn't go after a world class player just because he's available. he needs to fit in with what you're doing. i mean rodgers has a hard enough time looking for the puzzle pieces he needs now, it's pretty hard to find some world class talent out there that ticks all the specific boxes BR is looking for in whatever role that may be.


they should be but I don't reckon they can. just because they're considered and hyped up to be 'world class' doesn't mean they have a complete game, doesn't mean they are complete players. eden hazard is considered world class but if you put him in our system he would not track back and he would cause problems, the rest of the team would need to cater for him and you can't be catering for wingers when you already are for the strikers.

yes, i'm very much a fan of buying the right player and ignoring whatever hyped up player is on the market, unless they are right for us.

I presume its how you class someone as world class. When i think of world class i think of Suarez, Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Toure etc. that would fit in anyones "top 11 team". Hazard is good, but he hasn't hit the world class bracket in my ratings, hes done nothing to deserve it.

For me you have to try to get the best players available who will fit into the system. Get a world class player who fits the system well and they will take you to another level. Not only because they are a great player but because they will give confidence and raise the level of the other players in the team.

The reason Brendan has been more successful with Liverpool than he was at Swansea is that he is working with better players. So relying on the system alone is not enough.... you need the good players to go with it and World Class players are by definition the best players.

 

If we believe in 'the system' (and only that) then we must concede that, until we are playing it to it's optimum, we can't expect to do any better than a Swansea team which knew the system inside out. The system took those players, that team, to eleventh in the League.

What will take us to higher, therefore, can not be the system but rather the quality of players we have at our disposal. Now I happen to believe that we have better quality players than Swansea so, when we eventually do get 'it', naturally we can expect to achieve more.

Logic would surely dictate that, if we then want to move to the next level, we will need even more better quality players. It must follow then that 'the system' (any system) will only take you so far - a better stamp of quality players will take you further.

This journey (Champions League and title) will take as long or as short as it takes us to get enough top quality players into the team to lift 'the system' further.

^

True to an extent, Tuvok. But remember that BR has also evolved the system to suit the players too.

We're playing a much more attacking brand of direct, flowing football than Swansea ever were.

True to an extent, Tuvok. But remember that BR has also evolved the system to suit the players too.

If we believe in 'the system' (and only that)

For me you have to try to get the best players available who will fit into the system. Get a world class player who fits the system well and they will take you to another level. Not only because they are a great player but because they will give confidence and raise the level of the other players in the team.

The reason Brendan has been more successful with Liverpool than he was at Swansea is that he is working with better players. So relying on the system alone is not enough.... you need the good players to go with it and World Class players are by definition the best players.

Nail on the head there Saint.

One of the reasons I haven't been too fussed about Fabregas is that even though he's undoubtedly a cracking player, I can't for the life of me see how he would fit into the system.

I think it was Rinus Michels who said much the same thing as yourself in that you get players who fit the system, you don't alter the system to fit players in.

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

How did we win in Istanbul?

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

Exactly mate, it's not an "either, or" scenario, because you can have world class players in the system.

How did we win in Istanbul?

The talents of the coach.

Surely if you highlight the answer you don't need to ask the question.

The talents of the coach.

Surely if you highlight the answer you don't need to ask the question.

Ah.
 

How did we win in Istanbul?

I think there is a reason it is known as the "miracle of Istanbul" mate

One of our World Class players had a World Class second half (Gerrard), while one of their World Class players didn't (Shevchenko).

Seriously it was a cup game Beer. Paisley won the league for fun but never won the F.A. CUP. Souness couldn't win the league to save his life (or at least his job) but won the F.A. CUP.

The best team (or more often squad these days) wins the league, not necessarily the cups. 

I think there is a reason it is known as the "miracle of Istanbul" mate

One of our World Class players had a World Class second half (Gerrard), while one of their World Class players didn't (Shevchenko).

Seriously it was a cup game Beer. Paisley won the league for fun but never won the F.A. CUP. Souness couldn't win the league to save his life (or at least his job) but won the F.A. CUP.

The best team (or more often squad these days) wins the league, not necessarily the cups.

Sorry S@int. You cannot discount the manager for winning Europe's biggest prize (which was more than one game btw) having the likes of Djimi Traore in your side.

Sorry S@int. You cannot discount the manager for winning Europe's biggest prize (which was more than one game btw) having the likes of Djimi Traore in your side.

Not trying to discount the manager mate, he did a tremendous job, but it was a cup, and in a one off game it is not always the better side that wins it.

Similarly 2 years later we were the better side against Milan and lost. Should I discount the manager for that one ?

The system or any system will only take you so far as many have said, but good managers bend the rules of their preferred method to accommodate top players, that's always been the way. As has already been pointed out, Brendan did it a few times last season. Most notably by playing two up top in order to get two of our best players onto the pitch, and then by playing Gerrard in place of Lucas at the base of the team. Both moves were extremely successful, as was the boss's willingness to go with a diamond with Raheem Stirling coming inside, along with various other permutations in midfield.

Where I disagree with some posters (most notably on Fabregas) is firstly that I think they are underplaying his energy when they say he couldn't play to our style. If Joe Allen and Jordan Henderson can play to our style then Cesc Fabregas certainly can, I'm sorry but it's as simple as that. He is a far better player than either, and if he took their place in our team we would improve as a result. The other part of what is being said which I disagree with is that people are writing off a PLAYERS ability to adapt and bend to a system, although they accept usually that managers do it. Our own captain was written off by some as being too gung ho, lacking in "game intelligence", lacking in "positional awareness" etc etc before his staggeringly successful conversion to a holding midfielder. Good players will find a way in any system, it has forever been thus.

Not trying to discount the manager mate, he did a tremendous job, but it was a cup, and in a one off game it is not always the better side that wins it.

Similarly 2 years later we were the better side against Milan and lost. Should I discount the manager for that one ?

So are you telling me "world class" players are only needed to win league titles but not cup comps?

How did that work when Chelsea had more "world class" players than us in the league last year then?

FWIW, I agree with the general consensus in this thread about having better quality players in a team. But it is important to keep things in perspective, like I did with the Istanbul question because not everything in football is black and white. So, not forgetting or overlooking what a manager can do, especially after coming off the back of the season we have just had which undoubtedly was a success due to the system as much as it was the personel shouldn't be brushed aside IMO.

In fact both the system and the personel compliment each other, and finishing second and above a team with arguably more world class players reinforces this. I'm sure if we had a Roy Hodgson system in place last season we wouldn't have finished second.

So are you telling me "world class" players are only needed to win league titles but not cup comps?

How did that work when Chelsea had more "world class" players than us in the league last year then?

FWIW, I agree with the general consensus in this thread about having better quality players in a team. But it is important to keep things in perspective, like I did with the Istanbul question because not everything in football is black and white. So, not forgetting or overlooking what a manager can do, especially after coming off the back of the season we have just had which undoubtedly was a success due to the system as much as it was the personel shouldn't be brushed aside IMO.

In fact both the system and the personel compliment each other, and finishing second and above a team with arguably more world class players reinforces this. I'm sure if we had a Roy Hodgson system in place last season we wouldn't have finished second.

No mate, but World class players play to a higher level consistently while lesser players can raise their game on occasion.  Traore was generally poor but could on occasion play well for example. So over a season the higher level played by World class players is much more influential.

I have seen players like Steve Davis at Fulham outplay Gerrard on occasion, but over a season Gerrards influence and ability far outweighs the odd occasion when lesser players outshine him, which would be another example.

Chelsea had a problem scoring goals, doesn't matter how great the World Class players are, if you can't convert your chances into goals. Similarly we had a problem conceding goals, but we had the third best player in the world scoring for fun ..... Chelsea didn't.

Suarez was the difference, if Torres was half the player he used to be (when he was World class) Chelsea would probably have finished in front of us .

I don't think anyone is arguing that a manager doesn't have any influence mate.... just that a manager will get better results with better players than he would with 11 Traores, and the better the players in the system the better he will do.

There is a reason that top managers pay fortunes for top players and it is because no matter how good the system, it can always be improved by better players.

There is a reason that top managers pay fortunes for top players and it is because no matter how good the system, it can always be improved by better players.

Indeed.

I think world class is banded around to often, I mean they said Torres was world class with us which was nuts in my opinion. Torres benefitted from a team set up just for him with a WORLD CLASS Stevie G feeding him. He leaves for the chavs and you can see how dire he can be in a different system. I believe we have two world class players in Stevie and Suarez at the moment which is why we went so close this season. I also believe in Sterling, Sturridge and Couthino we have players with the potential of stepping up in class as well and if the do it with us I will be happy.

Edit, forgot to add Henderson to the list of players who can make the step up to the next level still young and still learning.

A good manager, will play the best system, to suit the players he has...
Whether its the managers "preferred" system is another story.
With that said, i think decent teams, will change the system to counter the oppositions strengths...
But if you have a good system and world class players, to don't have to worry about opposition tactics, as you play to your own strengths...
Devils advocate.

Neither are present here, but you cannot have a good system that'll win you trophies without world class players. You need best of both worlds - we have neither.

I think Dortmund and Atletico have shown the strength of the collective. The easier answer is great players make a system better. The truth is most managers play the same tactics and so of course better players make it more effective. If you could truly shape a collective like Barcelona did a few years back you can see the benefits.

I think Dortmund and Atletico have shown the strength of the collective. The easier answer is great players make a system better. The truth is most managers play the same tactics and so of course better players make it more effective. If you could truly shape a collective like Barcelona did a few years back you can see the benefits.

Great players and great footballers has become an on going discussion at work lately, to go a little off tangent.  I think that although some overlap exists, they are two distinct types.  Great footballers are individual talents and they, for mostly for good reasons, get most of the glory, press and attention but they tend to need players of a similar ability around them.  Great players don't get the attention they deserve, whilst sometimes not as talented as the other group, they make players around them look better, they work not only within their strengths but utilise the strengths of the players around them, Peter Beardsley springs to mind.

I don't know why you would even consider world class players that don't suit the system. That's as bad as our current transfer policy and not one any manager anywhere in the world would employ. You bring in world class players that slot straight in to your system. The issue is that when we try we're turned down. Excuses have ranged from Liverpool not being London to not being in the Champions League which leads many to believe it's to do with the wage structure. Whatever it is, it needs to change.

Everything starts with the quality of the players.

I don't know why you would even consider world class players that don't suit the system.
That's as bad as our current transfer policy and not one any manager anywhere in the world would employ.

You bring in world class players that slot straight in to your system.

The issue is that when we try we're turned down. Excuses have ranged from Liverpool not being London to not being in the Champions League which leads many to believe it's to do with the wage structure. Whatever it is, it needs to change.

.... but "World Class"  Box Of Frogs Balo signed for us ... after an alleged three hour convincing conversation from Brendan.

 

World Class players.
To suit the system.

QED.

World Class players.
To suit the system.

QED.

Problem is I am not sure anyone knows just what our system is any more.

Last season the idea seemed to be to win the ball back quickly, get it up to Suarez and Sturridge as fast as possible, throw players forward to support them and wait for the goals to flow.

This season we don't seem to know whether to play it around at the back, whether to press or drop back and whether to support the striker or run past him to get in the box.

Not sure if the teams in transition or in need of a total rebuild.

Problem is I am not sure anyone knows just what our system is any more.

Last season the idea seemed to be to win the ball back quickly, get it up to Suarez and Sturridge as fast as possible, throw players forward to support them and wait for the goals to flow.

This season we don't seem to know whether to play it around at the back, whether to press or drop back and whether to support the striker or run past him to get in the box.

Not sure if the teams in transition or in need of a total rebuild.

Or we fu**ed everything up by not signing players that were suited to the attacking style.

I suppose we could also argue that last season Brendan put a system together to suit our two best players and now we are seeing what he wanted as a system. This argument would explain our youth teams remaining 4231

Or we fu**ed everything up by not signing players that were suited to the attacking style.

I suppose we could also argue that last season Brendan put a system together to suit our two best players and now we are seeing what he wanted as a system. This argument would explain our youth teams remaining 4231

I agree mate. I think Brendan's original intention was to play with only one striker with Sturridge coming in off the wing and that Sturridge wasn't bought as a partner for Suarez, but when he saw how prolific they both were he changed his ideas and went with two.

As Brendan said :-

They're both different types of players. I wouldn't say they're a partnership. They both have a goal-scoring mentality. They'll arrive in the same areas, but how they get there is different. They have different qualities.
Read more at http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/281127.html#dzfrUXdduhWdg1D3.99

 

For me it is the system. Our DM is weak and that results in an imbalanced formation. Every new player has under performed compared to their previous season, including MB.

Neither are present here, but you cannot have a good system that'll win you trophies without world class players. You need best of both worlds - we have neither.

Disagree, the system was fine last year with a healthy Sturridge and Suarez.

Problem is I am not sure anyone knows just what our system is any more.

Agree.

I'm convinced the manager isn't even too sure right now.

I think he's caught between last season's style, trying to play to a 'target man's' strengths and going back to his more familiar style.

With the exception of not having S&S up front,  there's no reason why we can't still play positive attacking football like last season.
Our wing backs still like to get forward and get involved in the attacks,  Lallana is a great link up man,  and  is the perfect guy to play alongside Coutinho,  Can looks like he fits well into an attacking team, Sterling is still Sterling,  and although he won't score many, Fabio will make the runs.

For whatever reason our attacks are very slow in comparison to last season,  maybe Brendan is trying to show that he's not a one trick pony, but it's not working out.
I say go back to last seasons tactics,  if it ain't broken.......