World class players or "the system"?

Playing a system implies that they're robots, or just one dimensional. Changing  personnel to execute the same system, and it still goes wrong means that it's the system which is wrong.  Now..... having the players who can see if the system is going wrong, and adapt, or use their own  nous instead of being robots, that to  me is a world class player.  Whether or or not the manager see's this is a matter of opinion. but if he cant we're f**ked.

yeah i'm more of a system 2 person. you shouldn't go after a world class player just because he's available. he needs to fit in with what you're doing. i mean rodgers has a hard enough time looking for the puzzle pieces he needs now, it's pretty hard to find some world class talent out there that ticks all the specific boxes BR is looking for in whatever role that may be.

World class players should be able to play in any system, hence why they are considered the best in the game.

they should be but I don't reckon they can. just because they're considered and hyped up to be 'world class' doesn't mean they have a complete game, doesn't mean they are complete players. eden hazard is considered world class but if you put him in our system he would not track back and he would cause problems, the rest of the team would need to cater for him and you can't be catering for wingers when you already are for the strikers.

yes, i'm very much a fan of buying the right player and ignoring whatever hyped up player is on the market, unless they are right for us.

All I know is I don't want want to back in a position where we rely on one star player or two to make up for the lapses in quality or focus of the rest of the team.
I'd rather a team than a one man show.

Well the answer to the question is pretty simple. If it's a choice between the two we go for the system as there's simply no way we can afford to be buying World Class Players who don't fit.

However, what we need is to invest in players at an early stage who BECOME world class and fit perfectly into the system.

However, what we need is to invest in players at an early stage who BECOME world class and fit perfectly into the system.

When you figure out how to do that, you can move onto who shot JFK, then work out Sponge-bobs crabby patty formula ...

When you figure out how to do that, you can move onto who shot JFK, then work out Sponge-bobs crabby patty formula ...

We have a long history of doing precisely that - most notably with Kenny i would say. More recently I'd say we have done it with Suarez. We have done it with Gerrard and Alonso. We are likely to do it with Sturridge. Same goes for Sterling and I have high hopes for Coutinho and Sakho too.

So the question for us isn't figuring out how to do it - the question is how to do it consistently.

yeah i'm more of a system 2 person. you shouldn't go after a world class player just because he's available. he needs to fit in with what you're doing. i mean rodgers has a hard enough time looking for the puzzle pieces he needs now, it's pretty hard to find some world class talent out there that ticks all the specific boxes BR is looking for in whatever role that may be.


they should be but I don't reckon they can. just because they're considered and hyped up to be 'world class' doesn't mean they have a complete game, doesn't mean they are complete players. eden hazard is considered world class but if you put him in our system he would not track back and he would cause problems, the rest of the team would need to cater for him and you can't be catering for wingers when you already are for the strikers.

yes, i'm very much a fan of buying the right player and ignoring whatever hyped up player is on the market, unless they are right for us.

I presume its how you class someone as world class. When i think of world class i think of Suarez, Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Toure etc. that would fit in anyones "top 11 team". Hazard is good, but he hasn't hit the world class bracket in my ratings, hes done nothing to deserve it.

For me you have to try to get the best players available who will fit into the system. Get a world class player who fits the system well and they will take you to another level. Not only because they are a great player but because they will give confidence and raise the level of the other players in the team.

The reason Brendan has been more successful with Liverpool than he was at Swansea is that he is working with better players. So relying on the system alone is not enough.... you need the good players to go with it and World Class players are by definition the best players.

 

If we believe in 'the system' (and only that) then we must concede that, until we are playing it to it's optimum, we can't expect to do any better than a Swansea team which knew the system inside out. The system took those players, that team, to eleventh in the League.

What will take us to higher, therefore, can not be the system but rather the quality of players we have at our disposal. Now I happen to believe that we have better quality players than Swansea so, when we eventually do get 'it', naturally we can expect to achieve more.

Logic would surely dictate that, if we then want to move to the next level, we will need even more better quality players. It must follow then that 'the system' (any system) will only take you so far - a better stamp of quality players will take you further.

This journey (Champions League and title) will take as long or as short as it takes us to get enough top quality players into the team to lift 'the system' further.

^

True to an extent, Tuvok. But remember that BR has also evolved the system to suit the players too.

We're playing a much more attacking brand of direct, flowing football than Swansea ever were.

True to an extent, Tuvok. But remember that BR has also evolved the system to suit the players too.

If we believe in 'the system' (and only that)

For me you have to try to get the best players available who will fit into the system. Get a world class player who fits the system well and they will take you to another level. Not only because they are a great player but because they will give confidence and raise the level of the other players in the team.

The reason Brendan has been more successful with Liverpool than he was at Swansea is that he is working with better players. So relying on the system alone is not enough.... you need the good players to go with it and World Class players are by definition the best players.

Nail on the head there Saint.

One of the reasons I haven't been too fussed about Fabregas is that even though he's undoubtedly a cracking player, I can't for the life of me see how he would fit into the system.

I think it was Rinus Michels who said much the same thing as yourself in that you get players who fit the system, you don't alter the system to fit players in.

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

How did we win in Istanbul?

Surely getting 'World Class' players who fit into your system and philosophy is the way to achieve the best results and as Mouse has said before the system and talents of the coach will only get you so far.

Better players will ultimately move you to the next level.

Exactly mate, it's not an "either, or" scenario, because you can have world class players in the system.

How did we win in Istanbul?

The talents of the coach.

Surely if you highlight the answer you don't need to ask the question.

The talents of the coach.

Surely if you highlight the answer you don't need to ask the question.

Ah.
 

How did we win in Istanbul?

I think there is a reason it is known as the "miracle of Istanbul" mate

One of our World Class players had a World Class second half (Gerrard), while one of their World Class players didn't (Shevchenko).

Seriously it was a cup game Beer. Paisley won the league for fun but never won the F.A. CUP. Souness couldn't win the league to save his life (or at least his job) but won the F.A. CUP.

The best team (or more often squad these days) wins the league, not necessarily the cups. 

I think there is a reason it is known as the "miracle of Istanbul" mate

One of our World Class players had a World Class second half (Gerrard), while one of their World Class players didn't (Shevchenko).

Seriously it was a cup game Beer. Paisley won the league for fun but never won the F.A. CUP. Souness couldn't win the league to save his life (or at least his job) but won the F.A. CUP.

The best team (or more often squad these days) wins the league, not necessarily the cups.

Sorry S@int. You cannot discount the manager for winning Europe's biggest prize (which was more than one game btw) having the likes of Djimi Traore in your side.

Sorry S@int. You cannot discount the manager for winning Europe's biggest prize (which was more than one game btw) having the likes of Djimi Traore in your side.

Not trying to discount the manager mate, he did a tremendous job, but it was a cup, and in a one off game it is not always the better side that wins it.

Similarly 2 years later we were the better side against Milan and lost. Should I discount the manager for that one ?

The system or any system will only take you so far as many have said, but good managers bend the rules of their preferred method to accommodate top players, that's always been the way. As has already been pointed out, Brendan did it a few times last season. Most notably by playing two up top in order to get two of our best players onto the pitch, and then by playing Gerrard in place of Lucas at the base of the team. Both moves were extremely successful, as was the boss's willingness to go with a diamond with Raheem Stirling coming inside, along with various other permutations in midfield.

Where I disagree with some posters (most notably on Fabregas) is firstly that I think they are underplaying his energy when they say he couldn't play to our style. If Joe Allen and Jordan Henderson can play to our style then Cesc Fabregas certainly can, I'm sorry but it's as simple as that. He is a far better player than either, and if he took their place in our team we would improve as a result. The other part of what is being said which I disagree with is that people are writing off a PLAYERS ability to adapt and bend to a system, although they accept usually that managers do it. Our own captain was written off by some as being too gung ho, lacking in "game intelligence", lacking in "positional awareness" etc etc before his staggeringly successful conversion to a holding midfielder. Good players will find a way in any system, it has forever been thus.

Not trying to discount the manager mate, he did a tremendous job, but it was a cup, and in a one off game it is not always the better side that wins it.

Similarly 2 years later we were the better side against Milan and lost. Should I discount the manager for that one ?

So are you telling me "world class" players are only needed to win league titles but not cup comps?

How did that work when Chelsea had more "world class" players than us in the league last year then?

FWIW, I agree with the general consensus in this thread about having better quality players in a team. But it is important to keep things in perspective, like I did with the Istanbul question because not everything in football is black and white. So, not forgetting or overlooking what a manager can do, especially after coming off the back of the season we have just had which undoubtedly was a success due to the system as much as it was the personel shouldn't be brushed aside IMO.

In fact both the system and the personel compliment each other, and finishing second and above a team with arguably more world class players reinforces this. I'm sure if we had a Roy Hodgson system in place last season we wouldn't have finished second.

So are you telling me "world class" players are only needed to win league titles but not cup comps?

How did that work when Chelsea had more "world class" players than us in the league last year then?

FWIW, I agree with the general consensus in this thread about having better quality players in a team. But it is important to keep things in perspective, like I did with the Istanbul question because not everything in football is black and white. So, not forgetting or overlooking what a manager can do, especially after coming off the back of the season we have just had which undoubtedly was a success due to the system as much as it was the personel shouldn't be brushed aside IMO.

In fact both the system and the personel compliment each other, and finishing second and above a team with arguably more world class players reinforces this. I'm sure if we had a Roy Hodgson system in place last season we wouldn't have finished second.

No mate, but World class players play to a higher level consistently while lesser players can raise their game on occasion.  Traore was generally poor but could on occasion play well for example. So over a season the higher level played by World class players is much more influential.

I have seen players like Steve Davis at Fulham outplay Gerrard on occasion, but over a season Gerrards influence and ability far outweighs the odd occasion when lesser players outshine him, which would be another example.

Chelsea had a problem scoring goals, doesn't matter how great the World Class players are, if you can't convert your chances into goals. Similarly we had a problem conceding goals, but we had the third best player in the world scoring for fun ..... Chelsea didn't.

Suarez was the difference, if Torres was half the player he used to be (when he was World class) Chelsea would probably have finished in front of us .

I don't think anyone is arguing that a manager doesn't have any influence mate.... just that a manager will get better results with better players than he would with 11 Traores, and the better the players in the system the better he will do.

There is a reason that top managers pay fortunes for top players and it is because no matter how good the system, it can always be improved by better players.