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      The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced

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      Scottbot
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #23: Jul 29, 2014 10:44:51 pm
      Personally I feel we are in need of two strong wing backs as i would like to see us adapt a 3-5-2 this season to help Sturridge as i don't feel he can be as prolific as last season as a lone striker. Therefore for me i would like to see three center backs start, my three would be  Skrtel    Lovren   Sakho.

      We might gain a bit of defensive solidity with a 3-5-2 mate but I really couldn't see the point of it now that Luis is gone. It's a decent system to play, you lose the natural opportunities for over-laps and 2 on 1s against oppo full-backs and tbh I felt our play was quite predictable when we used it last season. I'd much prefer we figure out a way to defend with a back 4 meself.
      RC9
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #24: Jul 29, 2014 10:51:59 pm
      We might gain a bit of defensive solidity with a 3-5-2 mate but I really couldn't see the point of it now that Luis is gone. It's a decent system to play, you lose the natural opportunities for over-laps and 2 on 1s against oppo full-backs and tbh I felt our play was quite predictable when we used it last season. I'd much prefer we figure out a way to defend with a back 4 meself.

      That's fair, i am just worried that with a lone striker Sturridge wouldn't be able to cope and the last thing we need is Sturridge to become isolated.
      Scottbot
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #25: Jul 29, 2014 10:57:30 pm
      That's fair, i am just worried that with a lone striker Sturridge wouldn't be able to cope and the last thing we need is Sturridge to become isolated.

      I think he will be do just fine mate, I can still see us having the lions share of possession in most games and we generally play through the thirds so the likes of Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling and Henderson should all be able to get in touch with Danny.
      RC9
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #26: Jul 29, 2014 11:05:15 pm
      I think he will be do just fine mate, I can still see us having the lions share of possession in most games and we generally play through the thirds so the likes of Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling and Henderson should all be able to get in touch with Danny.

      Yeah, looking at a different angle, those players will definitely need to help Sturridge in closing down from the front, because that's when we looked most dangerous in my eyes when we was pressing up as high as possible when the opposition was on the ball, Suarez contributed highly to that as did Henderson, just hope Sturridge can do it too just as well.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #27: Jul 29, 2014 11:22:14 pm
      Given that the Ox and Soldado skint Agger last year and that he was bullied by Bony you'd have to say that his days are numbered whatever happens.


      Agger only played against Bony for 60mins, didn't play against the Ox or Arsneal as a whole at all last season, in the league anyway. He played against them in the FA Cup but if I remember rightly it was Skrtel who was given the headache, not Agger? He also only played against Soldado the once and he didn't cause us any problems did he? Did they even muster a single shot or half decent attack against us across the 2 games?



      « Last Edit: Jul 29, 2014 11:53:44 pm by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #28: Jul 29, 2014 11:42:39 pm
      Agger only played against Bony for 60mins, didn't play against the Ox or Arsneal as a whole at all last season, in the league anyway. He played against them in the FA Cup but if I remember rightly it was Skrtel who was given the headache, not Agger? He also only played against Soldado the once and he didn't cause us any problems did he? Did they even muster a single shot or half decent attack against us across the 2 games?

      I do not remember saying this?

      That was Yacster!!!
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #29: Jul 29, 2014 11:47:10 pm
      I do not remember saying this?

      That was Yacster!!!

      No idea what's happened there, no need to freak out about it lid. It's happening everytime I quote that post so you will just have to put up with it I'm sorry to say.

      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #30: Jul 29, 2014 11:50:52 pm
      No idea what's happened there, no need to freak out about it lid. It's happening everytime I quote that post so you will just have to put up with it I'm sorry to say.

      No problem mate ;)
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #31: Jul 29, 2014 11:54:42 pm

      Managed to work properly now, no idea what happened then. Reckon you just wanted a reason to complain ;)
      andymac7565
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #32: Jul 30, 2014 11:07:27 am
      Back 5 will be improved massively if Pepe is competing with Mig for the place.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #33: Jul 30, 2014 11:23:57 am
      Good OP.

      Found this MNF analysis of Lovren's play which highlights how important he might be for us compressing the lines in midfield which was our Achilles heel last year with Stevie in the holding role and Skrtel constantly dropping off:

      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEpoLdEeNE0

      The problem we will have to deal with next season is that teams are going to try and nullify our pace by sitting deep and inviting us to break through - as Chelsea did at the end of the season. Without Suarez using his incredible close control to break them down the best way to do that is to overload their back line with width and pull their defenders away from each other to create gaps (which is one reason why Borinis movement might be valuable for us).

      In terms of our attack, both fullbacks have now become crucial to the way we play. I've not seen  much of Moreno but I looked up some footage of Manquillo and he seems an intelligent choice for us. He is young with a high workrate so he can bomb up and down the flank all day. He seems tough enough to handle himself and has good d recovery speed and a front foot approach and won't dilly dally on the ball which will suit our style. He is quick and has a good touch but won't be dribbling around defenders like Aasaidi but he will open up space off the ball and offer us overloads in the corners of the fields. City scored a lot of goals by doing this - therefore I'll be convinced once I know we have the right fullbacks signed.
      Swab
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #34: Jul 30, 2014 12:41:48 pm
      Good OP.

      Found this MNF analysis of Lovren's play which highlights how important he might be for us compressing the lines in midfield which was our Achilles heel last year with Stevie in the holding role and Skrtel constantly dropping off:

      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEpoLdEeNE0

      The problem we will have to deal with next season is that teams are going to try and nullify our pace by sitting deep and inviting us to break through - as Chelsea did at the end of the season. Without Suarez using his incredible close control to break them down the best way to do that is to overload their back line with width and pull their defenders away from each other to create gaps (which is one reason why Borinis movement might be valuable for us).

      In terms of our attack, both fullbacks have now become crucial to the way we play. I've not seen  much of Moreno but I looked up some footage of Manquillo and he seems an intelligent choice for us. He is young with a high workrate so he can bomb up and down the flank all day. He seems tough enough to handle himself and has good d recovery speed and a front foot approach and won't dilly dally on the ball which will suit our style. He is quick and has a good touch but won't be dribbling around defenders like Aasaidi but he will open up space off the ball and offer us overloads in the corners of the fields. City scored a lot of goals by doing this - therefore I'll be convinced once I know we have the right fullbacks signed.

      Here's a nice little stat for you:
      Last season, Suarez scored once when we were behind in a game.
      I don't know about you, but that changed my perception a bit.
      AussieRed
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #35: Jul 30, 2014 01:31:25 pm
      Here's a nice little stat for you:
      Last season, Suarez scored once when we were behind in a game.
      I don't know about you, but that changed my perception a bit.

      Interesting stat Swab. Just out of curiosity how many times were we behind last season? Most of the games I remember, we took an early lead and went on with it.
      Swab
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #36: Jul 30, 2014 01:39:25 pm
      Interesting stat Swab. Just out of curiosity how many times were we behind last season? Most of the games I remember, we took an early lead and went on with it.

      No idea mate :D
      Just saw that stat and found it interesting.
      I tried a couple of searches, but not being very good with this interweb lark they turned up F**k all  :laugh:
      AussieRed
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #37: Jul 30, 2014 01:47:34 pm
      No idea mate :D
      Just saw that stat and found it interesting.
      I tried a couple of searches, but not being very good with this interweb lark they turned up f**k all  :laugh:

      Found the stat interesting too. Hopefully someone with more time on their hands then us  ;) can delve into it. Pretty interesting stat, me thinks.
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #38: Jul 30, 2014 01:55:17 pm
      Here's a nice little stat for you:Last season, Suarez scored once when we were behind in a game.I don't know about you, but that changed my perception a bit.

      i thought about this the other day too. we've been so used to blowing teams apart in the first half, we haven't had to encounter alternative situations too much - but this is well documented.

      but, kudos to the gaffer for beefing up our attacking midfield options and beefing up the defence. llalana and makovic are really good signings, lovren and can will deffo improve our defensive side.

      now...we just need a replacement for suarez (i joke...)
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #39: Jul 30, 2014 09:40:47 pm
      Wasn't really sure where to put this but a very interesting summary of how our keepers compare. Considering nothing here mentions anything about command of the area, willingness to come off their line, ability at set-pieces, distribution or sweeping out danger then Pepe really does compare quite well.

      While I've pretty much accepted Pepe wont be here next season the fact Vorm went to Spurs did make me think for just a second. If there's a chance Pepe and Brendan can settle their differences for the good of the club I really hope they take it.


      waltonl4
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #40: Jul 30, 2014 10:00:21 pm
      Wasn't really sure where to put this but a very interesting summary of how our keepers compare. Considering nothing here mentions anything about command of the area, willingness to come off their line, ability at set-pieces, distribution or sweeping out danger then Pepe really does compare quite well.

      While I've pretty much accepted Pepe wont be here next season the fact Vorm went to Spurs did make me think for just a second. If there's a chance Pepe and Brendan can settle their differences for the good of the club I really hope they take it.




      seems an awful lot of people still want Pepe here including me.
      GERNS
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #41: Jul 31, 2014 12:27:45 am
      seems an awful lot of people still want Pepe here including me.
      And me. His superior distribution as something we missed last season.

      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #42: Jul 31, 2014 04:07:20 pm
      Wasn't really sure where to put this but a very interesting summary of how our keepers compare. Considering nothing here mentions anything about command of the area, willingness to come off their line, ability at set-pieces, distribution or sweeping out danger then Pepe really does compare quite well.

      While I've pretty much accepted Pepe wont be here next season the fact Vorm went to Spurs did make me think for just a second. If there's a chance Pepe and Brendan can settle their differences for the good of the club I really hope they take it.




      It also doesn't take into account different leagues, different speeds of play, different tactics, etc. Weird comparison to make all things considered, but that's Sky for you. A better comparison would be Migonlet (13-14) v Reina (12-13), but even that would be a tad unfair given how crap we were in the first half of the 2012-13 season.
      federer
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #43: Aug 01, 2014 12:28:48 am
      The way that our defense has deteriorated in the last few seasons seems to raise a lot more questions than answers.  And here we are this summer having already purchased a (presumably) starting CB in Lovren, and are apparently on the cusp of buying Moreno and Manquillo.

      I've been wondering lately: is it really just that simple of a problem?  is it really just an issue of "our defenders aren't good enough"?  And can we honestly just solve the problem by buying "better" defenders and plugging them in?

      It seems to me that there is something larger going on here, or... not going on here.  During Kenny's second spell we had a good and occasionally great defense.  And it consisted largely of the same players we had last season.  Does it really make sense that suddenly they just became sh*te players under Rodgers, but were great under Kenny? 

      We all know that Steve Clarke was the defensive coach and a lot of our solid defensive play was down to him.  So who is our defensive coach now?  well, we don't have one.  Something that stuck with me last season was when Rodgers made this quote about our defense:

      Quote
      “The problem is it is not coaching. Some of the things we concede goals in, you can’t coach that. There’s a feel when you are in the game of how to defend and you have to use your experience to defend properly.  We concede poor goals. It isn’t so much structurally. It’s mistakes or decision making that cost us."
       
      he said that back in February, quote is in this article:

      http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-premier-league/story/1725715/brendan-rodgers-concerned-by-liverpool-defending

      Honestly.  Does that make sense to anyone here?  really?  there's NO WAY to coach the defense to have a better shape, to put themselves in the right positions so that they DO make right decisions?  if someone dives in and gives away a stupid foul or penalty, often times it is because they have been beaten, likely because they were out of position.  How is it not possible to coach them to be more disciplined and maintain their shape?

      And if it's not possible to coach decision making in defense, then why on earth did we employ Steve Clarke for nearly two years?  was he just sitting around doing nothing?  Something tells me Steve Clarke would disagree, that you indeed CAN coach defensive discipline and decision making.

      Some players, I'm thinking here about Glen Johnson in particular, really have dropped off in form and they likely wouldn't play well no matter who was coaching them.  But looking at our games last season, how many times did we give away goals with the back line being all over the place?  were they really disciplined and organized under Kenny, then suddenly became sloppy under Rodgers, for no reason at all? 

      Just for example: can you think of even ONE SINGLE TIME last season when we played an offside trap?  I can't.

      Even this pre-season, we look like we really have absolutely no defensive shape.  On the counter suddenly everyone is running back like a chicken with their head cut off, it's just awful and so random.

      No one can deny Rodgers' prowess as a coach in structuring an attack.  But I think it is pretty odd when he essentially says that defense is down to decision making and can't be coached.  Other top clubs spend a lot of time coaching their defense, but Rodgers doesn't think our defense needs coaching.  Okay.  Even sometimes in matches, some "hands-on" coaching would have been of really good use.  I'm thinking about when we were away at Crystal Palace, for example, and Glen Johnson on the third goal was all the way up the field, when they had the counter, why couldn't Rodgers get up and scream "Glen, get your arse back!"  I never see him doing stuff like that.

      My worry is that IF the defenders weren't being coached well when the players weren't up to scratch, then even if we do improve on those players, the new ones, even if they are better, are still going to be left to their own devices to figure it out on their own instead of having the manager give them specific instructions.  How can we expect them to settle if they're being left to their own devices and are to rely only on "experience" and not on tactical solidity and shape?

      I for one wouldn't mind at all having someone like Steve Clarke back at the club just to focus on our defense.  I know Rodgers tried to keep him on but Clarke left out of respect for Kenny.  I don't think there's any harm in delegating that responsibility to a different coach.

      I just find it hard to believe that defensive players can't be coached to be better.  If Rodgers can turn Sterling and Sturridge and Henderson into much better players, why can he not do the same with the defensive players?
      vulcan_red
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #44: Aug 01, 2014 12:43:07 am
      The way that our defense has deteriorated in the last few seasons seems to raise a lot more questions than answers.  And here we are this summer having already purchased a (presumably) starting CB in Lovren, and are apparently on the cusp of buying Moreno and Manquillo.

      I've been wondering lately: is it really just that simple of a problem?  is it really just an issue of "our defenders aren't good enough"?  And can we honestly just solve the problem by buying "better" defenders and plugging them in?

      It seems to me that there is something larger going on here, or... not going on here.  During Kenny's second spell we had a good and occasionally great defense.  And it consisted largely of the same players we had last season.  Does it really make sense that suddenly they just became sh*te players under Rodgers, but were great under Kenny? 

      We all know that Steve Clarke was the defensive coach and a lot of our solid defensive play was down to him.  So who is our defensive coach now?  well, we don't have one.  Something that stuck with me last season was when Rodgers made this quote about our defense:
       
      he said that back in February, quote is in this article:

      http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-premier-league/story/1725715/brendan-rodgers-concerned-by-liverpool-defending

      Honestly.  Does that make sense to anyone here?  really?  there's NO WAY to coach the defense to have a better shape, to put themselves in the right positions so that they DO make right decisions?  if someone dives in and gives away a stupid foul or penalty, often times it is because they have been beaten, likely because they were out of position.  How is it not possible to coach them to be more disciplined and maintain their shape?

      And if it's not possible to coach decision making in defense, then why on earth did we employ Steve Clarke for nearly two years?  was he just sitting around doing nothing?  Something tells me Steve Clarke would disagree, that you indeed CAN coach defensive discipline and decision making.

      Some players, I'm thinking here about Glen Johnson in particular, really have dropped off in form and they likely wouldn't play well no matter who was coaching them.  But looking at our games last season, how many times did we give away goals with the back line being all over the place?  were they really disciplined and organized under Kenny, then suddenly became sloppy under Rodgers, for no reason at all? 

      Just for example: can you think of even ONE SINGLE TIME last season when we played an offside trap?  I can't.

      Even this pre-season, we look like we really have absolutely no defensive shape.  On the counter suddenly everyone is running back like a chicken with their head cut off, it's just awful and so random.

      No one can deny Rodgers' prowess as a coach in structuring an attack.  But I think it is pretty odd when he essentially says that defense is down to decision making and can't be coached.  Other top clubs spend a lot of time coaching their defense, but Rodgers doesn't think our defense needs coaching.  Okay.  Even sometimes in matches, some "hands-on" coaching would have been of really good use.  I'm thinking about when we were away at Crystal Palace, for example, and Glen Johnson on the third goal was all the way up the field, when they had the counter, why couldn't Rodgers get up and scream "Glen, get your arse back!"  I never see him doing stuff like that.

      My worry is that IF the defenders weren't being coached well when the players weren't up to scratch, then even if we do improve on those players, the new ones, even if they are better, are still going to be left to their own devices to figure it out on their own instead of having the manager give them specific instructions.  How can we expect them to settle if they're being left to their own devices and are to rely only on "experience" and not on tactical solidity and shape?

      I for one wouldn't mind at all having someone like Steve Clarke back at the club just to focus on our defense.  I know Rodgers tried to keep him on but Clarke left out of respect for Kenny.  I don't think there's any harm in delegating that responsibility to a different coach.

      I just find it hard to believe that defensive players can't be coached to be better.  If Rodgers can turn Sterling and Sturridge and Henderson into much better players, why can he not do the same with the defensive players?

      What BR was saying is if you start telling them what to do they get defensive!
      federer
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #45: Aug 01, 2014 12:49:03 am
      What BR was saying is if you start telling them what to do they get defensive!

       ;D

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