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      The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced

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      Roddenberry
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #46: Aug 01, 2014 12:59:49 am
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #47: Aug 01, 2014 07:09:57 am
      There is so much wrong with this post it's difficult to know where to begin.

      1. it's not a question of defenders being "good" they have to play in a style that complements the team. Good coaching can only change a player to a limited extent - why else do you think clubs waste time and money on transfers?

      2. Unless you have had your eyes glued shut since 2005 you can't have failed to notice that top teams can no longer afford to rely on the "offside trap" given the changes in the offside law.
      http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/apr/13/the-question-why-is-offside-law-genius

      3. Steve Clarke was not a "defense coach" for us he was the team coach. There are no "defense coaches" at top teams for the obvious reason that all players defend and attack as part of a cohesive system. It's a balance. Whilst Clarke emphasised the defensive aspects, we isolated Suarez up front - but presumably you weren't on here pleading for "an attack coach"? And by the way, the noun is "defence" not "defense".

      4. If Rodgers has to be on the sidelines bellowing out to Johnson, or anyone else, every run they should be making we will get rolled over every week. The point is to educate the players in training so they learn to make the right decisions themselves. If they are incapable of doing that they will be replaced by players that are.



      federer
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #48: Aug 01, 2014 07:32:02 am
      Whilst Clarke emphasised the defensive aspects, we isolated Suarez up front - but presumably you weren't on here pleading for "an attack coach"?

      Well we had major problems under Kenny as well, there's absolutely no denying that, our defensive frailties might not have been as glaring as they were last season, but in attack we had major issues and had hard times creating clear cut chances, hence why we tended to hit the post so often (which really wasn't down to luck, it had much more IMO to do with the chances just not being good enough).

      So now we seem to have swung the other direction---we're potent in attack, maybe the most potent attack in the league, but defensively we're unstable. 

      it's not a question of defenders being "good" they have to play in a style that complements the team.

      could you clarify what you mean by that?  what is the "style" our defenders played last season?  and what defensive "style" do the current defenders coming in play? 
      Billy1
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #49: Aug 01, 2014 08:25:46 am
       2 good full backs and there will not be a team in the E.P.L. that will come anywhere near us.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #50: Aug 01, 2014 10:10:11 am
      It also doesn't take into account different leagues, different speeds of play, different tactics, etc. Weird comparison to make all things considered, but that's Sky for you.

      A better comparison would be Migonlet (13-14) v Reina (12-13), but even that would be a tad unfair given how crap we were in the first half of the 2012-13 season.
      True we were crap in the first half of that season so that should make "a tad unfair" on the Pepe in 'decline'; right?   

      Let's make it anyhow Mozzie... what should we compare - minutes played to goals conceded/clean sheets/saves; % of clean sheets maybe?  :confused-smiley-013:

      Premier League:

      Reina 2012 -2013:

      Minutes played [31 games] - 2790

      Goals Conceded - 34

      Goal Conceded every - 82 mins

      Clean Sheet % - 45%

      Saves made - 81

      Penalties saved - 1

      Save % - 70.43%

      [can't find 'catch success' on same site - premierleague.com]


      Mignolet 2013 -2014:

      Minutes played [38 games] - 3420

      Goals Conceded - 50

      Goal Conceded every - 68 mins

      Clean Sheet % - 26%

      Saves made - 108

      Penalties saved - 1

      Save % - 68.35%

      [can't find 'catch success' on same site - premierleague.com]


      « Last Edit: Aug 01, 2014 11:37:35 am by bad boy bubby »
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #51: Aug 01, 2014 10:53:08 am
      Well we had major problems under Kenny as well, there's absolutely no denying that, our defensive frailties might not have been as glaring as they were last season, but in attack we had major issues and had hard times creating clear cut chances, hence why we tended to hit the post so often (which really wasn't down to luck, it had much more IMO to do with the chances just not being good enough).

      So now we seem to have swung the other direction---we're potent in attack, maybe the most potent attack in the league, but defensively we're unstable. 

      Well it's not really a surprise is it? It takes time to go from 8th to having an attack and defence sorted out to the extent that you challenge for the title.

      Despite spending three quarters of a billion pounds it took City years before they came close - arguably they were on the way when Shinawatra was their owner.

      The progress we have made since Hodgson was in charge and we were nearly sucked into a relegation fight has been incredible but you simply don;t go from being a couch potato to Usain Bolt overnight.

      could you clarify what you mean by that?  what is the "style" our defenders played last season?  and what defensive "style" do the current defenders coming in play?

      Basically, the task Brendan has when he came in was to change us from a poor-man's Chelsea using a low block counterattacking style with a target man (Clarke learning from Mourinho went for Carra for Terry, Lucas for Makalele, Gerrard for Lampard, Carroll for Drogba) into  possession-based sterile domination 1433 playing a pressing game and a high line.

      The only problem being Suarez and Gerrard, our chief assets, are not suited to the latter and we had limited funds to change the entire squad given the oodles of money we had wasted and FFP restrictions. Therefore we eventually settled on a compromise by going for a medium block defence with a counterattacking style to maximise Sturridge's pace, Suarez's one on one skills (as Uruguay did) and Gerrard's passing range.

      Since we decided to play Gerrard as the deepest midfielder, we needed the defence to press during the game and compress the space around the halfway line thereby leaving him less running to do.

      Skrtel, for all his efforts isn't naturally good at that type of play. As I mentioned in the "back 5 not convinced" thread his instinct under pressure is to buy himself time by dropping off his man and running towards goal - a problem compounded by Mignolet who is pretty rooted to his line rather than pushing the defence out.

      Now, you can TELL Skrtel that he needs to push out and get on the front foot to anticipate the ball and challenge the striker before/as he receives it but the problem is that if you mess up you can look extremely stupid if you get beaten and a pacy forward is then through on goal.

      You then have the situation where the defender's confidence is shattered as he is accused of doing a David Luiz and - as we've all seen on here - a couple of mistakes like that can quickly turn fan's opinion and bring your career at the club to a swift end. I haven't personally played in front of very big crowds but, trust me, looking stupid in front of spectators is something every footballer wants to avoid -  I can only imagine the pressure of doing so being asked to play an un-natural style in front of 50,000 people with slow-motion replays on live TV being beamed across the globe (and of course internet critics ready to disect every mistake the instant they happen).

      So Skrtel runs back and the spaces in midfield open up for teams to exploit as Stevie hasn't got the legs to close down all the tricky 20 year olds who are burning past him. Result - open attacking games where we concede lots of goals as we saw last season.

      If you look at the couple of posts I wrote about Lovren and the accompanying videos you will see why his natural style is a much better fit for the way we want to play (although we may have occasions where he gets beaten by a pacy striker).

      Finally - as also mentioned in the other thread, even with compression of space in the centre, one of the main things we have to figure out is how to deal with teams who park the bus against us. Quite clearly we have bought a bunch of pacy attacking players so most team's obvious solution to this will to play like Chelsea did last year and sit back in two lines rather than letting us get in behind them and outrun them. Once they are sat back the only way to get through them is to try and outmuscle them (where they will usually have the advantage in terms of numbers and size of defenders), use one on one skills to dribble past (as we did with Suarez most of the time) or create space by stretching out their lines widthways across the pitch and using our attackers to get in amongst them (which is why Borini, with his movement, could be valuable for us next year).

      If you think about it this is why a team almost never goes from, say 4th, to winning the title next year - you almost always have to finish second before properly being in the hunt. That's because once you are on a good run, the opposition changes the way they play and stops giving you so much space. A team therefore has to learn to play in a different way - when teams sit back against you you have less chance of losing to them but you have to change your play and mentality to go out and beat them when they are super-defensive. We saw this year after year with Man United as they would pile pressure on teams without worrying too much about conceding - most of the time the opposition would turn up to Old Trafford without any hope of winning a game and trying to just weather the storm that was coming their way.

      So when they sit back, how do we get them to stretch out width-ways?

      We do what Man City have done which is to use our fullbacks to perform overlapping runs into the corners of the field so that defenders have to follow them. This is what Premiership teams last year were unable to cope with - although Yaya Toure got all the credit, if you look back at the City goals you will see that they stretched team's defences in this way allowing Silva / Negredo / Navas / Aguero space. Zabaleta isn't the greatest dribbler in the world but he was the key to City being able to use their attacking players by his hard work running off the ball.

      We, on the other hand, had Flanno who only joined the attack occasionally (as would be expected for a player at his stage) and Johnson who brought the ball upfield but would either get caught in possession, play a pass across the middle or cut inside at the edge of their box and shoot for the bottom corner - none of which would do anything to stretch the opposition defence.

      Pressing high and using the fullbacks for width is the key to our system next year - this will open up Stevie's and Coutinho's passing lanes on either side of the field whilst the rest of the midfield applies pressure to close down the ball. But to do that you need the right personnel and you need to give them time to play together to learn what to do.

      Simply thinking "we were good in attack but need to tighten up a bit at the back" is grossly underestimating the scale and complexity of the problems we have to solve to win the title.

      « Last Edit: Aug 01, 2014 11:08:33 am by Hollywood Balls »
      RC9
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #52: Aug 01, 2014 12:03:59 pm
      True we were crap in the first half of that season so that should make "a tad unfair" on the Pepe in 'decline'; right?   

      Let's make it anyhow Mozzie... what should we compare - minutes played to goals conceded/clean sheets/saves; % of clean sheets maybe?  :confused-smiley-013:

      Premier League:

      Reina 2012 -2013:

      Minutes played [31 games] - 2790

      Goals Conceded - 34

      Goal Conceded every - 82 mins

      Clean Sheet % - 45%

      Saves made - 81

      Penalties saved - 1

      Save % - 70.43%

      [can't find 'catch success' on same site - premierleague.com]


      Mignolet 2013 -2014:

      Minutes played [38 games] - 3420

      Goals Conceded - 50

      Goal Conceded every - 68 mins

      Clean Sheet % - 26%

      Saves made - 108

      Penalties saved - 1

      Save % - 68.35%

      [can't find 'catch success' on same site - premierleague.com]




      Migs made more saves but had a less successful save %, surely that just shows how poor our defense was in last season in comparison to when Reina was playing.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #53: Aug 01, 2014 12:30:23 pm
      Migs made more saves but had a less successful save %, surely that just shows how poor our defense was in last season in comparison to when Reina was playing.
      Them's the stats mate make whatever you want of them - Mozzie suggested the comparison: I provided the figures (via premierleague.com). If you need to believe that Mignolet was better - work away.

      As for your question(?) - all it proves is that, as far as shot-stopping went (along with everything else btw) - Mignolet [2013 14] was less successful than Reina [2012 -13]. The fact is; whilst Mignolet faced more shots [maybe because Reina 'swept' more, I don't know] - he saved less pro-rata.

      As for 'how poor our defence was last season' well... 1: Mignolet was part of it; 2: I seem to remember the same accusation being made about it [the defence] at the end of 2012 - 13 [and how we needed to improve on Reina, Agger, Johnson & Enrique] and 3: we can't 'blame' Reina for our defensive 'failings' in 21012 -13 but absolve Mignolet in 2013 - 14 [not if we are being even handed  ;)]; can we?

      I hope, like all true Reds, I presume, that this season Mignolet's stats are way better than his own last season and Reina's the season before. It shouldn't be hard.

      « Last Edit: Aug 01, 2014 12:50:31 pm by bad boy bubby »
      RC9
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #54: Aug 01, 2014 12:37:41 pm
      Them's the stats mate make whatever you want of them - Mozzie suggested the comparison: I provided the figures (via premierleague.com). If you need to believe that Mignolet was better - work away.

      As for your question(?) - all it proves is that, as far as shot-stopping went (along with everything else btw) - Mignolet [2013 14] was less successful than Reina [2012 -13]. The fact is Mignolet faced more shots [maybe because Reina 'swept' more, I don't know] - he saved less.

      As for 'how poor our defence was last season' well... 1: Mignolet was part of it; 2: I seem to remember the same accusation being made about it [the defence] at the end of 2012 - 13 [and how we needed to improve on Reina, Agger, Johnson & Enrique].

      I hope, like everyone, I presume, that this season Mignolet's stats are way better than his own last season and Reina's the season before. It shouldn't be hard.


      Firstly, i don't need to believe Mignolet did better, i thought genuinely the stat showed our defense was weaker and Mignolet had more to deal with, my mistake if that is not the case. It isn't a secret that i wasn't dissapointed when Mignolet came in and Reina left as i felt Reina's form dipped dramatically where as Mignolet still needs time to settle. But if one out performs the other in training and on the pitch vice versa i will have no qualms on who starts.

      Secondly, that is a good point, one of Reina's strongest talents was his sweeping ability, something if Mignolet could add to his game would make him a much stronger keeper. If the defenders can hold high line as they trust their keeper to be quick enough to come out and sweep it would make us a lot stronger, just look at Germany and Bayern. However Migs needs to grow in confidence before attempting such play.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #55: Aug 01, 2014 12:39:17 pm
      All these stats contrary to Rodgers' actions, not enough new players in the team selection of fans.

      Can't wait till we have a dip in form.  :D

      Think some will explode  :jackoff: and with sticky fingers turn around and say 'told you so'.  :rasp:
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #56: Aug 01, 2014 12:49:27 pm
      But if one out performs the other in training and on the pitch vice versa i will have no qualms on who starts.
      Me too mate: like every true Red I only want to see what's best.

      I know a F**k-wit or two will have a problem comprehending the written word, understanding the context of posts and following their time-line but the fact remains - I still don't give a F**k who plays where or when as long as LFC win.  ;D
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #57: Aug 01, 2014 01:15:20 pm
      Quote
      Firstly, i don't need to believe Mignolet did better, i thought genuinely the stat showed our defense was weaker and Mignolet had more to deal with, my mistake if that is not the case. It isn't a secret that i wasn't dissapointed when Mignolet came in and Reina left as i felt Reina's form dipped dramatically where as Mignolet still needs time to settle. But if one out performs the other in training and on the pitch vice versa i will have no qualms on who starts 

      I understand where you are coming from because I felt the same about Reina's form. I believe stats showed he had declined in form  :o the irony  ;D

      His distribution though is much better than Mignolet's and this suits our game it has to be said, although I don't think he was the best from crosses either, going from memory of the human eye. I think his concentration waned and thus we saw more fumbling and howlers from him which if I had to say, saw us concede more goals from play than Mignolet spilled from crosses or poor kicking.

      Rome wasn't built in a day and Rodgers looks to be overhauling the defense somewhat, so I'll have to wait a bit longer to determine whether Mignolet is at fault for all the stats that have been thrown his way in order to prove he is a worse keeper than Reina.

      Having said that, I would presume all Reds hope that Mignolet has a great season even if it means some of them won't be proven right - not sure I'll hold my breath on that one, no matter how many disclaimers they thrown in for good measure.  8)
      « Last Edit: Aug 01, 2014 01:31:04 pm by Beerbelly »
      s@int
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #58: Aug 01, 2014 01:41:56 pm
      I don't think it is about who is proven right, as that rarely happens in football, but about what is best for Liverpool.

      For me Mignolet has not been as good as I hoped so far, while I have no doubt that Pepe just wasn't as good as he had been previously in his last few seasons here.

      Mignolet has made more mistakes than a top goalkeeper should while Pepe was being beaten by shots that a top goalkeeper should be saving.

      Certainly the difference between the two at the moment in no way justifies the £10million or so we spent on Migs, but did we really have much of an option with Pepe looking to return to Spain?

      I do believe that Migs has had the handicap of playing behind a poorer defence than Pepe did, due to changes in personnel and our more attacking style of play last season.

      I would like to see a fair assessment with the better player getting the job, unfortunately I don't believe that is possible, so I think the obvious solution is that Pepe leaves and we bring in someone at least much better than Jones .... if possible better than Migs too.
      waltonl4
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #59: Aug 01, 2014 03:07:23 pm
      I don't know if its possible but he needs to take charge of "his" defense and be far more commanding take a few players out when coming for crosses.
      Scottbot
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #60: Aug 01, 2014 09:24:26 pm
      I read some comments online from Roy Evans yesterday and his comments/concerns in terms our shape was that our fullbacks get too high too early. It's a very valid point and does put us under a lot pressure if we lose the ball in our own half of the field and also leaves us susceptible to the diagonal ball into the area vacated by the full backs should give it away cheaply.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #61: Aug 02, 2014 09:21:57 am
      does put us under a lot pressure if we lose the ball in our own half of the field and also leaves us susceptible to the diagonal ball into the area vacated by the full backs...
      And... it makes it look like the full-backs are to blame and worse than they actually are. Part of the price we have to pay for being the fast attacking force we are, I suppose.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #62: Aug 02, 2014 12:25:26 pm
      I read some comments online from Roy Evans yesterday and his comments/concerns in terms our shape was that our fullbacks get too high too early. It's a very valid point and does put us under a lot pressure if we lose the ball in our own half of the field and also leaves us susceptible to the diagonal ball into the area vacated by the full backs should give it away cheaply.

      Yep, that's why I'm in favour of playing 2 sitting midfielders.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #63: Aug 02, 2014 12:53:27 pm
      Yep, that's why I'm in favour of playing 2 sitting midfielders.

      I thought Brendan may do that as well. Even if it's a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 type formations. I don't know how Sturridge will go being the 'main man', something tells me his ego says 'yes' but I'm not sure about his game or game intelligence to do it. I'm not saying he can't but I do wonder if he can play a more lone role.

      I thought Brendan would go with the idea (or perhaps it's me projecting  ;D) of two deep midfielders as I highly doubt we'll be able to get the goals and fill the void Suarez left. So, my thinking is to shore up what was a porous defense.  There does seem to be so much fluidity in our team that sometimes it looks as though it loses it's discipline & shape somewhat - something I think another DM would help, after all we attack as a team, we need to defend as a team a bit more IMO and not leave our defense as exposed.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #64: Aug 02, 2014 01:07:45 pm
      I thought Brendan may do that as well. Even if it's a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 type formations. I don't know how Sturridge will go being the 'main man', something tells me his ego says 'yes' but I'm not sure about his game or game intelligence to do it. I'm not saying he can't but I do wonder if he can play a more lone role.

      I thought Brendan would go with the idea (or perhaps it's me projecting  ;D) of two deep midfielders as I highly doubt we'll be able to get the goals and fill the void Suarez left. So, my thinking is to shore up what was a porous defense.  There does seem to be so much fluidity in our team that sometimes it looks as though it loses it's discipline & shape somewhat - something I think another DM would help, after all we attack as a team, we need to defend as a team a bit more IMO and not leave our defense as exposed.



      I agree!

      Adding to that, I do not want to see Gerrard as our main defense midfielder. He would either partner Can, or Henderson to partner Can or Lucas. I really don't think Lucas and Gerrard in the middle is a good idea.
      ConzS
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #65: Aug 02, 2014 01:26:20 pm
      I've not read much of this thread so it might be something that has been mentioned already. Now that we have more width in the forward line with the additions of Markovic, Lallana and Ibe coming back from loan, will we need to rely as much on the fullbacks getting forward?

      Last season we generally played through the middle, having 2 strikers and our only real winger (Sterling) was more often playing behind the strikers than out wide. So we had to rely on the fullbacks to get forward and provide the width. I'm sure that most will agree that a large amount goals we conceded last season was due to our fullbacks inability to deal with the opposition wingers and our CB's being exposed because the fullbacks were nowhere to be seen (Johnson :roll:).

      Now, if we set up with Sturridge as the main striker and an attacking 3 behind him, we will have width in the forward line and should't concede as many goals as a result of our fullbacks being caught out of position.

      Does that make sense?
      Scottbot
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #66: Aug 02, 2014 01:54:55 pm
      And... it makes it look like the full-backs are to blame and worse than they actually are. Part of the price we have to pay for being the fast attacking force we are, I suppose.


      Yeah I think so, that's not to say some of our fullback play last season wasn't poor because it was but it when they are given the freedom and instructions to get fully involved in our attacking game we are bound to get caught out.

      Yep, that's why I'm in favour of playing 2 sitting midfielders.


      And to be fair to Brendan he has played with two sitters at times over the last two years. The one sitter approach only seemed to be used regularly once Gerrard was moved to play the role at the turn of the year last season.

      Maybe we will see two sitters at times this season, I certainly expect to see it away from home in the Champions League. The other alternative is to ask the fullbacks to be a little less gung-ho, I actually like the balance that Flanagan brings to the position. H is eager to get forward and help out but he is first and foremost a defender and this shines through in his play and his decent positional sense for one so young.

      The other issue as I see it is the tempo at which we passed the ball last season, it was incredible. Quicker than any side in many years I would argue. But of course, if you move the ball that quickly and get players forward quickly the potential is always there to lose it quickly and then your in trouble. Compare that approach to A typical Maureen team, they get labelled as boring but I wouldn't go as far as that. His teams generally keep the ball well, they play through the thirds and generally play it on the deck but they are very patient and tend to commit players forward gradually as an attack builds. This means that when they lose the ball they are still in pretty decent shape to defend. I think this is where we come unstuck.

      It's not an easy one to solve and it certainly isn't all the fault of our full backs. As I said in the OP the most important aspect of any defence for me is the centre-half pairing, if you can get two players who truly compliment each other you are in business. We haven't managed that. I'm hoping that Lovren proves to be an agrees ice defender who organises and takes a lead and fingers crossed he can form a good partnership with Sakho who is clearly earmarked as the manager's first choice given the money we spent on the lad.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #67: Aug 02, 2014 02:56:52 pm
      And to be fair to Brendan he has played with two sitters at times over the last two years. The one sitter approach only seemed to be used regularly once Gerrard was moved to play the role at the turn of the year last season.

      Do you remember how that went? Were we as open with 2 sitting midfielders as we have been with Gerrard as the sole defensive midfielder? Be interesting to know who played there under Rodgers. I forgot :(

      As I said in the OP the most important aspect of any defence for me is the centre-half pairing, if you can get two players who truly compliment each other you are in business

      You are right, It would solve a lot of our defensive problems, but I think the other piece is in midfield. We need to find the right balance for that area. Once the CB and CM pairings are solidified, I believe we'll become more compact and difficult to score against.

      Looking at the successful teams of past in the PL that's maintained their consistency throughout the years, not only did they have a successful central defensive pairing, but also in midfield. From, Veria & Petit, Keane & Scholes to Makelele & Lampard, and our very own, Alonso & Masch.

      With the loss of Suarez, I doubt very much we'll repeat our goal scoring feats, so instead of trying to replicate last season, we should tweak the system/formation and find the right balance & partnerships in our spine. I really believe with the players we have, we could end up having a world class spine for the next 5 years +.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #68: Aug 02, 2014 03:01:18 pm
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      . Do you remember how that went? Were we as open with 2 sitting midfielders as we have been with Gerrard as the sole defensive midfielder? Be interesting to know who played there under Rodgers. I forgot   

      Yeah, F***ing awful.

      Though I think it was down to personnel rather than number of sitters, who literally just sat.

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