Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Brighton [Premier League] Sun 31st Mar @ 2:00 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 28th of March and on this date LFC's match record is P26 W11 D3 L12

      The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced

      Read 15834 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      srslfc
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 32,111 posts | 4876 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #69: Aug 02, 2014 03:18:11 pm
      Yeah, F***ing awful.

      Though I think it was down to personnel rather than number of sitters, who literally just sat.

      Agree.

      Lucas and Gerrard simply didn't work as a pair for Brendan.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,564 posts | 3172 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #70: Aug 03, 2014 12:51:15 pm
      At the end of last season, Brendan remarked that it was the goals we conceded, when we won, which more cost us the league. He specifically mentioned the Stoke 5-3; Cardiff 6-3 and Swansea 4-3 games. You'd imagine then, that he has taken or will take steps to rectify that. He could do it with personnel and or better game management.

      As far as personnel goes - last season - Sakho was seen as the solution to the Agger 'problem' and Mignolet, the solution to the Pepe 'problem'. That didn't quite work out as planned so it must have been Skrtel, Johnson & Flanagan who were the 'problem'. [setting aside the lack of security, in front of them, of course].

      This season Dejan will solve the Skrtel 'problem', Moreno the Flanagan 'problem' and Manquillo the Johnson 'problem' but...

      ... [bringing back the lack of security, in front of them] the biggest improvement  to our defensive unit, in my opinion, will come with security in midfield: Can being the most important change there. The switch [flipping the triangle] to play with 'two', in games we need to manage better, will be easier. It's only an opinion but Can (rather than Lovren etc) really could be the key to our back five looking as good as it did in the second half of 2012/13.


       
      « Last Edit: Aug 03, 2014 01:08:19 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #71: Aug 03, 2014 01:17:18 pm
      And... it makes it look like the full-backs are to blame and worse than they actually are. Part of the price we have to pay for being the fast attacking force we are, I suppose.

      Something I've been saying for months.
      kelvo
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,207 posts | 52 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #72: Aug 17, 2014 04:42:38 am
      This is taken from the Anfield index, fair play to the work put into this.

      Quite interesting and 76% of the goals conceded last season are from individual errors.

      Hopefully the addition of a talker in Lovren will see this stat reduce significantly this season.

      http://anfieldindex.com/8762/liverpool-goals-conceded-201314-video-clips.html
      GERNS
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 12,208 posts | 1503 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #73: Aug 17, 2014 10:43:22 am
      Feel a bit better about the centre with Lovren in with Skrtel. Still not impressed with Sahko. Think Enrique will be ok when fully fit, but Johnson has become a liability. Manquillo and Moreno might make a difference. Manquillo did nothing to harm his chances last time out, and if Moreno is as good as he has been touted, no problems. Think we could also do better between the sticks as well. We've also got cover in the centre without Sahko so 50 goals could become 25 goals this season.
      waltonl4
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 37,585 posts | 7139 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #74: Aug 17, 2014 11:06:38 am
      This is taken from the Anfield index, fair play to the work put into this.

      Quite interesting and 76% of the goals conceded last season are from individual errors.

      Hopefully the addition of a talker in Lovren will see this stat reduce significantly this season.

      http://anfieldindex.com/8762/liverpool-goals-conceded-201314-video-clips.html

      Rafa believed 100% of goals start with a mistake.I think he is right.
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 9,542 posts | 2135 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #75: Aug 26, 2014 10:24:05 pm
      Still got a bunch of issues at the back if last night is anything to go by haven't we. What jumped out for me was:

      - listening to Carra and Neville tear our back line to shreds after the game and in truth it was no more technical or complicated than the sort of stuff I spout at our College teams at work. It really was basic stuff. Being compact as a back four, ensuring distances are correct, shape and shuffle when the ball is switched, and above all else communicating as a unit. It doesn't seem to be happening with our lads does it? They applied the same analysis to City and it was a few simple movements and adjustments that meant our lads were not able to break them down. lovren looks like a talker but With Skrtel I don't think he will ever get it from a positional sense.

      - I wonder if Carra would fancy a couple of sessions a week at Melwood? I dare say he has been asked but we could bloody do with him because I'm not sure Brendan does defending? He talks about pressing and being aggressive from a defensive point of view but I can't recall ever hearing him talk about the finer points of defending, about being compact and shape etc

      - I would look to start Sakho alongside Lovren in the next game and see if those two can form a partnership

      - In the full-back position there is no point discussing Johnson, I think King Kenny's minute by minute hatchet job on our right back in the match thread was bang on and highlights why he isn't up to the job anymore. He doesn't appear to give a shi..t anymore and if I have to watch him jog back half pace again after losing the ball I don't think can take it. Real baptism of fire for Moreno, nearly gave away a penno and then badly at fault for the all important risk goal BUT that aside he showed good pace, toughness and strength and he looks like he has all the makings of a premier league player. Only concern for me was does he use his right foot? He bloody well should have to try and clear the ball for the first goal. Flanagan has to be the man for the gift back slot once he is fit, we're missing his defend first mentality Nd I can't wait to see him back in the side, the sooner the better for me.

      - I thinks the manager needs to revise the system. Particularly for big away games against better opposition (such as last night and this weekend). If our full-backs are going to get so high p the pitch so early then surely we're better off with two sitters? It's tough on Stevie to ask him to do it on his own, I know Hendo and Allen will put in a shift but just sit two in there. This way your full backs being out of position when we lose it is FAR less of an issue. It also allows you to play Coutinho in the middle of the park and bring in someone (ie. Lallana or Markociv) to play wide left and provide a bit more protection for Moreno.
      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 9,874 posts | 805 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #76: Aug 26, 2014 10:43:57 pm
      Still got a bunch of issues at the back if last night is anything to go by haven't we. What jumped out for me was:

      - listening to Carra and Neville tear our back line to shreds after the game and in truth it was no more technical or complicated than the sort of stuff I spout at our College teams at work. It really was basic stuff. Being compact as a back four, ensuring distances are correct, shape and shuffle when the ball is switched, and above all else communicating as a unit. It doesn't seem to be happening with our lads does it? They applied the same analysis to City and it was a few simple movements and adjustments that meant our lads were not able to break them down. lovren looks like a talker but With Skrtel I don't think he will ever get it from a positional sense.

      - I wonder if Carra would fancy a couple of sessions a week at Melwood? I dare say he has been asked but we could bloody do with him because I'm not sure Brendan does defending? He talks about pressing and being aggressive from a defensive point of view but I can't recall ever hearing him talk about the finer points of defending, about being compact and shape etc

      - I would look to start Sakho alongside Lovren in the next game and see if those two can form a partnership

      - In the full-back position there is no point discussing Johnson, I think King Kenny's minute by minute hatchet job on our right back in the match thread was bang on and highlights why he isn't up to the job anymore. He doesn't appear to give a shi..t anymore and if I have to watch him jog back half pace again after losing the ball I don't think can take it. Real baptism of fire for Moreno, nearly gave away a penno and then badly at fault for the all important risk goal BUT that aside he showed good pace, toughness and strength and he looks like he has all the makings of a premier league player. Only concern for me was does he use his right foot? He bloody well should have to try and clear the ball for the first goal. Flanagan has to be the man for the gift back slot once he is fit, we're missing his defend first mentality Nd I can't wait to see him back in the side, the sooner the better for me.

      - I thinks the manager needs to revise the system. Particularly for big away games against better opposition (such as last night and this weekend). If our full-backs are going to get so high p the pitch so early then surely we're better off with two sitters? It's tough on Stevie to ask him to do it on his own, I know Hendo and Allen will put in a shift but just sit two in there. This way your full backs being out of position when we lose it is FAR less of an issue. It also allows you to play Coutinho in the middle of the park and bring in someone (ie. Lallana or Markociv) to play wide left and provide a bit more protection for Moreno.

      Start off by saying great post mate. Imo your first 3 points all link together, Lovren is a talker but Skrtel isn't like you have stated, imo Sakho is a talker and i see him and Lovren marshaling the defense together. For our defense to improve, two things have to happen.
      1. The right personnel needs to be picked from the start (Flanagan/Manquillo Lovren Sakho Moreno)
      2. This back four needs to be picked consistently.

      Firstly i would have that back four because, Flanagan gets up and down the field well, as does Manquillo on first impressions, both are strong and fearless in challenges (could work against them) but i like it as they show hunger. Lovren and Sakho the partnership as i feel both are comfortable pushing the ball forward and both are beasts in the air. Sakho mainly over Skrtel because imo Sakho reads the game better than Skrtel and is more composed going forward. Moreno, although he seemed to have a bad game due to all three goals being down his side he really didn't. He is quick across the ground and puts himself about strongly, looks great going forward and is composed on the ball, the only thing that worried me was his defensive positioning, bringing me onto my second point.

      We need to keep a consistent back four, with the same back four, the defenders can learn eachothers weakness's and help one another in covering, as last night Moreno for the third goal pushed up way too high, leaving Lovren exposed. 3-4 games playing regularly together as soon as Lovren see's Moreno making that run to close down the defender he should be either getting the defense to push as high as possible or to drop deeper, it didn't happen last night but with consistent games together imo it will and would have.
      Roddenberry
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 16,568 posts | 1876 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #77: Aug 26, 2014 11:46:58 pm
      I think I'll give this new defence a while to gel, Manquillo. Lovren and Moreno have all shown glimpses that, however hard it might be for us to accept, may see them take a little while to gel.
      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 9,874 posts | 805 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #78: Aug 27, 2014 12:01:23 am
      I think I'll give this new defence a while to gel, Manquillo. Lovren and Moreno have all shown glimpses that, however hard it might be for us to accept, may see them take a little while to gel.

      Think this is the thought that in the back of my mind worries me the most.

      They may well need to gel and it may take a while, what worries me is in the time it takes will we still find ourselves in a strong enough position to go for the tittle again, because i hope we do.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,564 posts | 3172 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #79: Aug 27, 2014 09:25:38 am
      - In the full-back position there is no point discussing Johnson, I think King Kenny's minute by minute hatchet job on our right back in the match thread was bang on and highlights why he isn't up to the job anymore. He doesn't appear to give a shi..t anymore
      Right, first things first: although I staunchly defend Glen Johnson, [I F***ing detest him being called a "c**t"], I have to agree that he certainly looks like he couldn't give a sh*t. For that alone I'd drop him.

      Real baptism of fire for Moreno, nearly gave away a penno and then badly at fault for the all important risk goal BUT that aside he showed good pace, toughness and strength and he looks like he has all the makings of a premier league player.
      I mentioned the 'baptism of fire' in the match thread Scotty but the telling thing, (for me anyhow), was that although Glen was often 'jogging back'; City definitely targeted Moreno and that flank as being the 'weak link'. I found that strange in a way but they'd obviously done some sort of homework. That said; I'm sure he can recover from the 'roasting'.

      I thinks the manager needs to revise the system. Particularly for big away games against better opposition (such as last night and this weekend). If our full-backs are going to get so high p the pitch so early then surely we're better off with two sitters? It's tough on Stevie to ask him to do it on his own...
      Again; I won't argue with that. I posted something similar in another thread.

      And therein lies the rub debs...

      Playing with two 'marauding' full backs, high up the pitch, waiting on Stevie's long, diagonal ball is all good n well (setting aside it's predictability ) but it always leaves you vulnerable.

      When you're outscoring teams that vulnerability matters less; when the opposition are on the back foot, or aren't good quality, the same but against a well marshalled defence and quality players with pace, the vulnerability is exaggerated.

      You're left with Stevie (who, as you say, isn't a defensive midfielder) and two centre backs either retreating or facing their own goal and being pulled all over the shop. When that happens it doesn't matter who your centre or full backs are, or if they're 'old guard' or 'flavour of the month': you're going to concede.

      The fact is; not only are we going to be facing better quality opposition this season but most every team will have twigged. In my opinion, it'll be suicidal for us to play without at least one (possibly two) defensive midfielder(s)... unless we're able to score like last season.
        :-\

      Which brings me on to this mate:

      I would look to start Sakho alongside Lovren in the next game and see if those two can form a partnership...

      For, as long as we play without a defensive midfielder, I'm not sure any partnership will be much better [goals conceded] than an other. However I would have no problem giving it a go. A settled back four/five would at least give us further insight to where exactly the defensive 'problem' lies.  :-\


      ConzS
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,321 posts | 1016 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #80: Aug 27, 2014 11:28:51 am
      City definitely targeted Moreno and that flank as being the 'weak link'. I found that strange in a way but they'd obviously done some sort of homework.
      I don't think they necessarily targeted it as the weak side mate, more the fact that Silva and Zabaleta are two of their best and most creative players and they tried to get them involved as much as possible. Particularly Silva, who gets more of the ball than anyone in the City team, I'd say.
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,980 posts | 2264 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #81: Aug 27, 2014 12:26:54 pm
      I think they targeted coutinho rather than Moreno.  After his performances against them last season they knew they needed him to have a quiet game, they couldn't allow him to have the space he needs to excel and they did a good job of it.
      s@int
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,987 posts | 2282 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #82: Aug 27, 2014 01:40:08 pm
      For, as long as we play without a defensive midfielder, I'm not sure any partnership will be much better [goals conceded] than an other. However I would have no problem giving it a go. A settled back four/five would at least give us further insight to where exactly the defensive 'problem' lies.

      I have just picked this point out mate because I think it cuts to the root of the problem.

      I think it is all about the balance of the side . In another thread I was talking about how being a player short in our attack was reducing our effectiveness as an attacking unit. Similarly I agree that a good defensive midfielder would aid our effectiveness as a defensive unit.

      The obvious problem is how do we solve these shortfalls without playing 13 players :)

      I think the problem lies with our midfield rather than with our defence or attack. Henderson and Allen offer too little goal threat, but pushed as high as they are to support our attack means they have to work extremely hard to get back once an attack breaks down and we lose possession. Which is probably why we play Henderson and Allen in the first place, because they work hard and can get up and down the pitch ....unlike say Lucas.

                                        Mignolet
      Manquillo           Skrtel            Lovren          Morino

                                  Gerrard    Can

                  Henderson                       Lallana/Markovic                           

                             Stirling/Coutinho
                      Sturridge        Balotelli

      To me this would give a much more balanced side, with the two strikers and a forward we wouldn't be as reliant on support from the midfield as much. (pick and choose rather than having to join every attack) and with a defensive midfielder Gerrard may once more be able to get his head up and pick out a few passes while the defence would be assisted by a midfield closer to them and a defensive midfielder.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,564 posts | 3172 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #83: Aug 27, 2014 01:41:38 pm
      I don't think they necessarily targeted it as the weak side mate, more the fact that Silva and Zabaleta are two of their best and most creative players and they tried to get them involved as much as possible. Particularly Silva, who gets more of the ball than anyone in the City team, I'd say.
      Yeah Silva... pops up everywhere doesn't he? Rested him to give Navas a go down that flank too.

      It's [City favouring their right] not something I'd thought about before but if that's what you think I ain't going to disagree. Although I will say this and leave it there: Clichy & Nasri would have been every bit as effective, against the 'empty space' Glen left (according to most everyone), as Silva & Zabaleta. Maybe Pellegrini missed a trick?

      Either way; they played more down our left (ignoring our 'weak' right) and Moreno bore the brunt: a serious 'welcome' to the Premier League.
      srslfc
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 32,111 posts | 4876 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #84: Aug 27, 2014 02:16:09 pm
      For, as long as we play without a defensive midfielder, I'm not sure any partnership will be much better [goals conceded] than an other. However I would have no problem giving it a go. A settled back four/five would at least give us further insight to where exactly the defensive 'problem' lies.  :-\

      Agree here.

      We had to change the back four quite a lot last season due to injury but the one constant was we always looked like, and did, concede goals.

      I'd rather see a settled back four for a while as you say.
      ConzS
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,321 posts | 1016 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #85: Aug 27, 2014 03:48:19 pm


                                        Mignolet
      Manquillo           Skrtel            Lovren          Morino

                                  Gerrard    Can

                  Henderson                       Lallana/Markovic                           

                             Stirling/Coutinho
                      Sturridge        Balotelli
      Looks good mate but it would be a bit unfair if we were allowed to field 12 players :f_tongueincheek:
      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 9,874 posts | 805 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #86: Aug 27, 2014 03:54:06 pm
      Looks good mate but it would be a bit unfair if we were allowed to field 12 players :f_tongueincheek:


      Yeah with two deep lying midfielders we'd need to wither sacrifice a no10 or one of the strikers. Which I am not too comfortable with.

      Unless they are disciplined in when one goes forward the other sits. Not sure how effective Can is at sitting or going forward but if it was Hendo in the two with Gerrard id have Hendo forward and Gerrard sitting.
      s@int
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,987 posts | 2282 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #87: Aug 27, 2014 03:54:31 pm
      Looks good mate but it would be a bit unfair if we were allowed to field 12 players :f_tongueincheek:

      I got it down from 13 though mate .... still a work in progress obviously :)

      The obvious problem is how do we solve these shortfalls without playing 13 players
      ConzS
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,321 posts | 1016 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #88: Aug 27, 2014 04:01:08 pm
      I got it down from 13 though mate .... still a work in progress obviously :)
      :lmao:

      I'd say we sacrifice the player behind the strikers and go with the 4-2-2-2. Sterling on the left, Markovic on the right and Hendo/Can to start alongside Gerrard.
      s@int
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,987 posts | 2282 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #89: Aug 27, 2014 04:12:28 pm
      :lmao:

      I'd say we sacrifice the player behind the strikers and go with the 4-2-2-2. Sterling on the left, Markovic on the right and Hendo/Can to start alongside Gerrard.


                                        Mignolet
      Manquillo           Skrtel            Lovren          Morino

                                  Gerrard    Can

                     Henderson/Lallana/Markovic                           

                             Stirling/Coutinho
                      Sturridge        Balotelli

      Not too confident that we have enough in this midfield but I don't want to lose the extra forward or we are almost back were I started.



      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 9,874 posts | 805 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #90: Aug 27, 2014 04:18:22 pm

                                        Mignolet
      Manquillo           Skrtel            Lovren          Morino

                                  Gerrard    Can

                     Henderson/Lallana/Markovic                           

                             Stirling/Coutinho
                      Sturridge        Balotelli

      Not too confident that we have enough in this midfield but I don't want to lose the extra forward or we are almost back were I started.





      Mate i don't think Can, could be mobile enough to be alongside Gerrard, I'd feel a lot more confident with Henderson by his side in all honesty.                                   
      s@int
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,987 posts | 2282 
      Re: The Back 5 - Still Not Convinced
      Reply #91: Aug 27, 2014 04:24:45 pm
      Mate i don't think Can, could be mobile enough to be alongside Gerrard, I'd feel a lot more confident with Henderson by his side in all honesty.                                   

      I'm not sure about Can mate, but I am sure Henderson can't do the job beside Gerrard.... we have tried it and so have England.

      Quick Reply