Liverpool's striker conundrum

"Value"; "overpay": is there a difference?

You can introduce the word "value" if you need to; it really makes no odds.   

"It [the transfer policy] was - and will be in the future - about getting maximum value for what is spent...

... We have no fear of spending and competing with the very best but we will not overpay for players." ~ John Henry

You won't know if you've got "value" for money until after the fact. If you discover that you indeed haven't got "value" for money then obviously you have "overpaid"... but my guess is that you already knew that. 

Yes there is a difference, you can judge a players price by similar transfers of similar players and as we, as a club don't want to be held to ransom, I'm sure you'll want to remove the outliers, such as Luis etc.  BUt i don't know if I can be arsed to get drawn into one of your 'semantic' debates.

Yes there is a difference, you can judge a players price by similar transfers of similar players and as we, as a club don't want to be held to ransom, I'm sure you'll want to remove the outliers, such as Luis etc.  BUt i don't know if I can be arsed to get drawn into one of your 'semantic' debates.

Yeah you're right... semantics. Tho' to be fair, I hadn't posted that to draw you in but I'm sorry that it has.

On reflection you're right we didn't overpay,  for Aspas, we just overvalued him.

Yeah you're right... semantics. Tho' to be fair, I hadn't posted that to draw you in but I'm sorry that it has.

On reflection you're right we didn't overpay,  for Aspas, we just overvalued him.

And some still want us to overpay.

And some still want us to overpay.

Yeah... If you read back, I agreed with you - price is no guarantee of success: expensive or cheap. The thing is you won't know the value of a player (or his worth) to the team at the point of sale.

Call it semantics if you want Rodders but for me (and this is where we seem to differ): we have overpaid for any player who doesn't 'contribute'... at £7m or £20m - they're all the same to me.

Like I said: read back, it's all there.

Did we "overpay" for Aspas for example? Maybe not, as far as the bank-balance is concerned, but as far as football is concerned... without a doubt.

No they couldn't because no matter how much we scored we bled goals on defense.

So why is it the forward line people are whinging over? (not having a go at you, just asking the question) Yes we've lost Suarez' goals and assists and they will obviously need replacing but not necessarily from one player because truth be told I'd of been surprised if even Suarez got near those numbers again this year. So in my opinion we're not looking to replace 30 goals a season, we're looking really to replace around 20 which is the number I'd of guessed Suarez would of got this time round if he was still here.

Pound for Pound and by default we have the best striker in the Premiership starting for us.

I'm gonna disagree with you there mate. As much as I like Sturridge and think he's a great forward at a decent price (in today's market) I wouldn't put him up there as the best in the League. For me, that would go to Aguero. But the fact that we can even discuss a Liverpool centre forward being the best in the League after losing the best player in the world, shows just how far we've come in recent years.

Everybody screaming we need to buy the proverbial "World Class" striker

Easy on the everybody mate. Not all of us are.

Shrek & Van Pussie (are they world class?)
Drogba/Costa/Torres (world class?)
Giroud/Podolski/Sanchez (world class?)
Aguero/Dzeko/Jovetic ( world class) probably best 3 in league but world class?
Soldado/Adebayor/Kane (world class?)

Rooney and Van Persie on their day are world class but the fact that they're not on their day every single game, I'd say no they're not what I call world class.

Drogba and Torres were world class, no denying that. They were both unplayable in the mid-2000s. Now they're both a shadow of their former selves and would hard be pushed to even be put in the good centre forward category in my opinion. Costa, I don't know enough about. I know some rave about him but I can't say if he's world class or not.

Neither Giroud or Podolski are, were or will be world class. Solid enough who'll chip in with a few but nowhere near enough to be world class. Sanchez, like Costa, I don't know enough about. The reviews he got on here when we were linked with him makes me think we've missed out somebody special, what I saw at the World Cup makes me think we didn't. He may turn out to be great at Highbury, he may turn out to be another Sylvain Wiltord.

Aguero is world class, I've said as much above. Dzeko is alright and Jovetic has had a decent pre-season but, due to injury, did F**k all for the most part of last year. Is Negredo still there? One out of three or four for a team that has spent a gazillion odd quid isn't a great return in reality.

Soldado is sh*t, Adebayor on his day is unplayable as he proved last year under Sherwood but as he's also proven numerous times his day seems to be as regular as a total eclipse. And Kane is nothing special who'll never really make it with a big team in my opinion. Be lucky to get a mid-table looking at him.

Where exactly are these world class strikers that we have to face week in and week out....do we need another striker sure we do...would a Sturridge/Eto/Lambert  be end of the world? probably not though I would rather have someone other than Eto.

Which is the point I was making earlier on. We will need another forward, however, I highly doubt we're gonna get some "world class" player to come and sit on the bench playing second fiddle to Sturridge. With the players we've bought this summer, it looks certain we're going to be playing one up top. We've already got Lambert and Borini. Lambert, I like - Borini I think is sh*t. But there you go. I'd rather see us give a kid a go, I make it no secret that I prefer seeing the youngsters get given a run out than spending money on somebody who in reality isn't any better than them. Case in point, could Adam Morgan have done any worse than what Aspas did last year? I'm not saying these lads are gonna come in and be the new Robbie Fowler nor am I asking they come in and replace Sturridge, but for the squad I'd rather see a young lad showing desire than some waste of space sack of sh*t not giving a toss who we've spent a fair amount of bread on.

So if we're looking for somebody like Eto'o to come in and piss about in the League Cup, occasional start in the League on 150K a week - I'd rather see Harry Wilson do that job. But hey, that's not how football works nowadays.

People make it sound like week/week out we are squaring off against Bayren/PSG/Real/Barca and have to match up player for player with Messi/Neymar/Suarez...well we dont.

Tell you what I would take Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson, Can, Lallana, Markovic, Gerrard over some of the stiffs these other teams have, and to me that gives us the edge in most situations.

We need another striker but lets not sh*te our pants that the world is coming to an end because he is not "World Class"

Would wholeheartedly agree with that.

Yeah... If you read back, I agreed with you - price is no guarantee of success: expensive or cheap. The thing is you won't know the value of a player (or his worth) to the team at the point of sale.

Call it semantics if you want Rodders but for me (and this is where we seem to differ): we have overpaid for any player who doesn't 'contribute'... at £7m or £20m - they're all the same to me.

Is the level of contribution determined by the price though mate?

For example, if we got Remy for somewhere between the 8-10 million price range - would a contribution of 10 goals be ok for that. Whereas if we signed Bony for the reported 19 million - would a contribution of 10 goals be a poor return?

Is the level of contribution determined by the price though mate?

For example, if we got Remy for somewhere between the 8-10 million price range - would a contribution of 10 goals be ok for that. Whereas if we signed Bony for the reported 19 million - would a contribution of 10 goals be a poor return?

its a very debatable point . What if we win far more games with a £8mil player than we did with a £50mil player. Value to the team is so difficult to evaluate as long as we win the league nobody will be talking about wages or transfer fees will they.

Is the level of contribution determined by the price though mate?

For example, if we got Remy for somewhere between the 8-10 million price range - would a contribution of 10 goals be ok for that. Whereas if we signed Bony for the reported 19 million - would a contribution of 10 goals be a poor return?

I get what you're saying Billy but that [judgement] would be down to the individual and would be subjective. For me the cost is immaterial.

For example; whilst Downing was anything but great he was still more successful (contributed more) than Borini, Aspas & Assaidi combined. He was selected more (by both bosses) and played more. That's all, as a fan, I'm concerned with.

I can understand why some folk try to square the circle by excusing a player's performance because of his price but [for me] that's just wrong. Having a sliding scale of goals to cost is way too complicated for this simple mind. Although I'd be very interested to see how others try to measure cost against expected success.

Like I said: too complicated and too subjective as the sands seem to shift too often. Take poor Charlie Adam - at £7m he was expected to be a world beater; to take us from 7th to first - was widely condemned as sh*te when he didn't. Compare him with Alberto - same £7m; contributed F**k all by comparison but escaped the harshness directed at Charlie. Why? "Well at £7m he was worth a punt"

As for what I expect from a starting liverpool striker - 15 to 20 league goals minimum. I don't think we should sign them otherwise tbh.

It is all about risk. 

A highly rated high priced player has a better chance at success for the team.  Of course there is no guarantee but you have a better idea of what player you are getting if said player has already won multiple times vs one straight from the academy.  Also for example say money is not an issue... and you find yourself the manager a team.. in the champions league final and you need to select a striker.  Would you choose the one that has won it before on all fronts and has shown to be decisive when it counts.... or a relatively new kid that is energetic but has alot more variables... would the pressure get to him?  Would he make the right runs?  Can he create space vs the worlds best defenders?

It is all debateable of course and that makes forums like this interesting but when push comes to shove... risk mitigation with high potential for success is why some players cost so much more than others. 

With this risk of expenditure v goals scored. The costliest players don't always make the best fit, i.e. Torres for us, and then again for chavs. Regardless of price and previous goal scoring records, surely the managers job, or his scouts, is to make sure as best as he can, that the individual becomes a fitting piece in his jigsaw. Simples !

Has anyone considered for a moment - and this is mainly directed at the imbeciles in the media - that if Sturridge gets injured, Sterling could readily take his place?

After all, we have plenty of depth in midfield - wouldn't at all surprise me to see Sterling moulded in that role.

I think so mate. Raheem is the closest to Sturridge in our current squad. I also think lazar or even Coutinho definitely could do better than Aspas or Borini if put them up front.
What I want to see is we never buy the like of Aspas again. Please stop this stupid trend. If cannot buy the 'right' main striker this window then try to get the definite proven class creative attacking versatile player like Reus, it's closest to 'guarantee' that he could help improve our team.   

I think so mate. Raheem is the closest to Sturridge in our current squad. I also think lazar or even Coutinho definitely could do better than Aspas or Borini if put them up front.
What I want to see is we never buy the like of Aspas again. Please stop this stupid trend. If cannot buy the 'right' main striker this window then try to get the definite proven class creative attacking versatile player like Reus, it's closest to 'guarantee' that he could help improve our team.

But what do you mean by "the likes of Aspas"? Statistically he was a good player in a top league who was instrumental for his team.

Even superstars can be flops - how are you proposing we avoid that? Reus isn't any more of a proven star than Torres, Shevchenko, Veron and countless others were in their day.

But what do you mean by "the likes of Aspas"? Statistically he was a good player in a top league who was instrumental for his team.

Even superstars can be flops - how are you proposing we avoid that? Reus isn't any more of a proven star than Torres, Shevchenko, Veron and countless others were in their day.

I agreed mate that every signing not guarantee to be success but I believe that given the manger have fully back by the board to get his primary targets then it's less likely we will see the like of Aspas or Assaidi come to LFC.
Reus was just example my point is someone the manager really want. I'm sure it's still risk even manager really rate his primary target but it's a lot better than forcing our manager to take only his second or the worse ones.
 

Hopefully Daniel will be the answer to this current striker conundrum.

That said, do we need to sign a new striker to partner him in January?

Hopefully Daniel will be the answer to this current striker conundrum.

That said, do we need to sign a new striker to partner him in January?

Probably as Borini is not really wanted by Brendan. Might be a get out of jail card for us to get a forward who fits our style of play.

If we have to resort in putting our faith in Borini, then we are truly fu**ed

If we have to resort in putting our faith in Borini, then we are truly fu**ed

Because playing Lambert for a few mins every game is working out so well for us...

Jack Dunn
Kristoffer Peterson
Jerome Sinclair
Harry Wilson
Danny Tricket-Smith

All can play up top (or anywhere across the front three) and all could easily save us forking out a fortune on some world class flop.

I stand by this.

Any one of the names above would of offered us more, in my opinion, than what Balotelli has done so far. (obviously with the exception of Peterson who isn't here) And I'd be happier to see any of them come on than Lambert or Borini.

 I think it's been shown that Brendan is getting the players he wants. He's been unequivocal about that.

No excuses there then .

Although he's typically a forward and not an out and out striker, it would be nice to see Ibe feature for us in that forward position come January. We probably will not call him back from loan just yet though.

So anyway, January a little over a month away - we need a new striker!

I stand by this.

Any one of the names above would of offered us more, in my opinion, than what Balotelli has done so far. (obviously with the exception of Peterson who isn't here) And I'd be happier to see any of them come on than Lambert or Borini.

Well Brendan is always saying he gives youth a chance (not that I've seen unless he's been forced to). I'd love to see the young lads given the chance myself.

If we´re going to sign a striker,we need to sign a striker.We bought a natural in Rickie Lambert and then went for a joke of a "player",Lambert´s antithesis which left us with nil when we chose to play him for almost all games.Lambert´s 2 goals for 3 starts now.Good.He should be 2nd choice  no question.If we bought a man with double figures from his past 2 seasons I really hope it wasn´t to burn him out.I know he was never meant to be top man here but let´s not flush talent down the drain,much less now.That being said,we need one for the future,another Daniel,Luis.We can´t have knee jerk reaction buys,if we buy a striker it must be a solid proven player,a no-nonsense buy.As of right now,other than Jackson Martinez I can´t think of another transfer that would warrant even going there.Monitor Carlos Bacca maybe.Cavani will never come here ( I personally don´t want him to).

Point is,we either sign a serious striker or none at all.This nonsense with Luis Alberto,Aspas,Borini,Balotelli (#That really happened?) has got to stop.Enough experimenting,we need a straightforward answer for a very clear problem.