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      Do you Believe?

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      Diego LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #23: Sep 15, 2014 01:16:21 am
      Do you believe in God? A different higher power? Or nothing at all?

      Nothing at all.

      If there is an Creator, then it's a pretty wicked and sadistic individual, or thing, or whatever.
      -LFC-
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #24: Sep 15, 2014 01:22:02 am
      Things start getting complicated when bringing in the 'ifs', -LFC-. We could pose any question and use it to our argumentative advantage like you did.



      It's not complicated. It's very simple: you argue that humans can only exist because of the cosmos'a exact 'design', this pointing to a 'creator', but this is so 'exact' it allows for meteors to hit earth and cause mass extinction events as has happened in the past. What kind of 'creator' has it within his/her/it (no appropriate pronoun) plan to bring about the extinction of the beings he/she/it (as before) created?

      Obviously when you factor in all the other bad sh1t that has, does and will occur, it's plain to see that we have no reason to suppose any of this is because of a supernatural force.
      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #25: Sep 15, 2014 01:22:39 am
      Nothing at all.

      If there is an Creator, then it's a pretty wicked and sadistic individual, or thing, or whatever.

      I'm not questioning your beliefs when I ask this but why do you think this 'Creator' is 'a pretty wicked and sadistic individual'?
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #26: Sep 15, 2014 01:24:41 am
      I'm not questioning your beliefs when I ask this but why do you think this 'Creator' is 'a pretty wicked and sadistic individual'?

      Because then we are his toys. Why would perfection create imperfection? It seems like a sadistic way of spending his time for me ;D
      s@int
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #27: Sep 15, 2014 01:25:26 am
      I believed when I was young, but no longer. The more I think about it the more strongly I don't believe.

      Fairy tales to ease the fear of children alone in the dark is a simple explanation for religion.

      Frightened of the thunder ... that's just Thor. Worried the rain may not stop... god has given you a rainbow to ease your fears. Worried that you may sacrifice your life for nothing.... don't worry you will get plenty of virgins in heaven.

      Like Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and other fantasies, too easily taken over by the nutter element who take it to levels "sane" people never would... only with religion THEY DO.   

      I need to get £20billion pounds out of the country .. just send me your bank account details and I will send you the money. People laugh at that scam now, but Religion is the oldest scam and people not only subscribe to it they force their children to subscribe too.

      What's the difference between the Easter bunny, the Tooth Fairy and God... they are all made up stories, but people don't fight wars over the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy.

      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #28: Sep 15, 2014 01:28:35 am
      It's not complicated. It's very simple: you argue that humans can only exist because of the cosmos'a exact 'design', this pointing to a 'creator', but this is so 'exact' it allows for meteors to hit earth and cause mass extinction events as has happened in the past. What kind of 'creator' has it within his/her/it (no appropriate pronoun) plan to bring about the extinction of the beings he/she/it (as before) created?

      Obviously when you factor in all the other bad sh1t that has, does and will occur, it's plain to see that we have no reason to suppose any of this is because of a supernatural force.

      But ever since the first human existed there has been no meteorite. Why not?

      Also, you seem to have the typical POV of "Bad things happen so God doesn't exist".

      “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”
      ― C.S. Lewis.  (An atheist converted into a Christian)
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #29: Sep 15, 2014 01:29:08 am
      It's not complicated. It's very simple: you argue that humans can only exist because of the cosmos'a exact 'design', this pointing to a 'creator', but this is so 'exact' it allows for meteors to hit earth and cause mass extinction events as has happened in the past. What kind of 'creator' has it within his/her/it (no appropriate pronoun) plan to bring about the extinction of the beings he/she/it (as before) created?



      Maybe the creator is showing his capabilities to mankind & exposing mankind's vulnerabilities to his will?, we are nothing but a speck of dust compared to the ever expanding universe.

      You may not believe in biblical stories of the great flood, The Ark, parting of the Sea but science has proven this to be a fact with evidence.
      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #30: Sep 15, 2014 01:30:11 am
      Because then we are his toys. Why would perfection create imperfection? It seems like a sadistic way of spending his time for me ;D

      I see what you're trying to say but I think you might have the wrong idea about who/what God is.
      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #31: Sep 15, 2014 01:33:56 am
      I believed when I was young, but no longer. The more I think about it the more strongly I don't believe.

      Fairy tales to ease the fear of children alone in the dark is a simple explanation for religion.

      Frightened of the thunder ... that's just Thor. Worried the rain may not stop... god has given you a rainbow to ease your fears. Worried that you may sacrifice your life for nothing.... don't worry you will get plenty of virgins in heaven.

      Like Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and other fantasies, too easily taken over by the nutter element who take it to levels "sane" people never would... only with religion THEY DO.   

      I need to get £20billion pounds out of the country .. just send me your bank account details and I will send you the money. People laugh at that scam now, but Religion is the oldest scam and people not only subscribe to it they force their children to subscribe too.

      What's the difference between the Easter bunny, the Tooth Fairy and God... they are all made up stories, but people don't fight wars over the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy.



      The whole 'scam' idea just stems from people making money from religion. Doesn't mean it was invented to make money. Jesus earned nothing financially for doing what he did and neither did the the 12 Apostles. Same goes for the whole 'religious' wars. Just because people use it as an excuse to go to war does not mean the subject itself is evil nor does it mean that's what it stands for. Technology and science were used to create the weapons/H-Bomb but does that mean technology and science are evil things?
      lester76
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #32: Sep 15, 2014 01:34:17 am
      100% I don't believe.
      Science is magical and beautiful and far more impressive than any faith based upon stories.
      The fact we exist at all and have evolved to this point is testament to how incredible science is.
      As mankind evolves we shred the old ways and look to the past to show fact and to science to reveal our future.
      I don't need any belief in a higher power to give me a positive outlook and foundation in my life.
      This is all we have and it's pretty darn spectacular.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #33: Sep 15, 2014 01:35:47 am
      I see what you're trying to say but I think you might have the wrong idea about who/what God is.

      Maybe? I just don't feel like worshiping something, if it exists, that has created out of its own will an imperfect world. It was either a very lousy job or we might be great entertainment.
      -LFC-
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #34: Sep 15, 2014 01:39:15 am
      But ever since the first human existed there has been no meteorite. Why not?

      Also, you seem to have the typical POV of "Bad things happen so God doesn't exist".

      “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”
      ― C.S. Lewis.  (An atheist converted into a Christian)


      Humans are 200,000 years old. The earth is 4.54 billion years old. Plenty of time left for us to be wiped out by a meteor; that's if God hasn't already decided to condemn us all to hell courtesy of a global pandemic or natural disaster. Justice  ???
      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #35: Sep 15, 2014 01:39:45 am
      Maybe? I just don't feel like worshiping something, if it exists, that has created out of its own will an imperfect world. It was either a very lousy job or we might be great entertainment.


      I didn't mean that in a patronizing matter btw  :)

      (Awesome avatar btw  ;D )

      So, to those of you who don't believe: Do you believe that nothing came out of something when the Universe began? Is that possible? Is it not just as illogical as saying 1 + 1 = 0?

      I'm not trying to disrespect your beliefs but I'm just interested to know what it is you think started the whole thing.
      LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #36: Sep 15, 2014 01:40:50 am
      Humans are 200,000 years old. The earth is 4.54 billion years old. Plenty of time left for us to be wiped out by a meteor; that's if God hasn't already decided to condemn us all to hell courtesy of a global pandemic or natural disaster. Justice  ???


      Ok, I'm going to go on living my life and you can spend your life waiting for a meteor to hit. Let me know how you get on.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #37: Sep 15, 2014 01:46:33 am

      I didn't mean that in a patronizing matter btw  :)

      (Awesome avatar btw  ;D )

      So, to those of you who don't believe: Do you believe that nothing came out of something when the Universe began? Is that possible? Is it not just as illogical as saying 1 + 1 = 0?

      I'm not trying to disrespect your beliefs but I'm just interested to know what it is you think started the whole thing.

      When I joke, I hope I'm not being disrespectful either. I just don't really believe in a God.

      I'm pretty fine in saying I don't know a lot of things about the universe, including how it was created - I have no problem with ignorance. I don't feel like I have to put it on the shoulders of some higher entity.

      When humanity did not understand thunders, we had a god for it too.
      -LFC-
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #38: Sep 15, 2014 01:51:44 am
      Ok, I'm going to go on living my life and you can spend your life waiting for a meteor to hit. Let me know how you get on.

      He already did it, buddy. 65 million years ago. Your man is lethal.
      Bier
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #39: Sep 15, 2014 03:22:14 am
      I've never encountered a reason to believe or even consider the existence of a deity, and I certainly have never encountered a reason to take any religions seriously.

      But I guess I'm what they call an apatheist. This is not really a relevant issue to my life. It wouldn't change anything for me either way.


      So, to those of you who don't believe: Do you believe that nothing came out of something when the Universe began? Is that possible? Is it not just as illogical as saying 1 + 1 = 0?

      I'm not trying to disrespect your beliefs but I'm just interested to know what it is you think started the whole thing.

      You don't solve that by putting a creator in the equation though, did the creator come out of nothing then? Not more logical or anything.

      Humanity is never going to have have all the answers to everything. I'm fine with that. If the big bang happened billions of years ago, then it's not strange that we don't have all the answers. Our human minds might not even be capable of grasping everything. Every answer brings new questions.
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2014 03:49:48 am by Bier »
      s@int
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #40: Sep 15, 2014 06:03:49 am
      The whole 'scam' idea just stems from people making money from religion. Doesn't mean it was invented to make money. Jesus earned nothing financially for doing what he did and neither did the the 12 Apostles. Same goes for the whole 'religious' wars. Just because people use it as an excuse to go to war does not mean the subject itself is evil nor does it mean that's what it stands for. Technology and science were used to create the weapons/H-Bomb but does that mean technology and science are evil things?

      At least you admit that religion was "invented."

      Like the H-bomb, religion should never have been invented as they have both caused the death of lots of people , both have led to a World living in terror of what man can do with them and both have cost billions to maintain, money that could have been better spent on helping the sick and starving.

      I have no use for superstitions personally but if anyone else wishes to worry about breaking a mirror or praying to the right god ... that's fine with me.

      I just think if you are going to invent a god he should be a bit more mature than the one you have. A god that needs to be worshipped ? A god that gets jealous of other gods ? A god that punishes innocent great grand children for the offences of the great grandfathers (even unto the third and the fourth generation).

      Not so much a god as a petulant child.


      David Wright
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #41: Sep 15, 2014 06:44:20 am
      Find it very hard sometimes, with all the uncertainties in the world. Life can be very trying at times, although I would really like to believe.
      stuey
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #42: Sep 15, 2014 08:49:09 am
      Find it very hard sometimes, with all the uncertainties in the world. Life can be very trying at times, although I would really like to believe.

      If you can summon up the inner strength and invoke the determination you are better able to confront the tribulation, doubt and temptation of a contemporary existence; if for any reason a wee bit of a stimulus in the self-belief dept. is required and you are equipped to accept said fillip, don't think twice - religion is the very thing for you.
      An admirable concept in it's purest form and will do what it says on the tin.

      The above was accepted without question when presented thousands of years ago, to be fair anyone who doubted the premise met with an untimely and horrific end, the holy men or God's representatives were the face of death to disbelievers.
      Consequently the holy men were all powerful and not to be looked at unless grovelling.
      Thankfully civilisation prevailed and thousands of years later we are free to make an enlightened decision on whether we wish to be protected under God's umbrella of spiritual reinforcement or not.
      Obviously some are unwilling to relinquish the omnipotence that enlightenment extinguishes.
       
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #43: Sep 15, 2014 11:27:33 am
      I thought this was a simple yes/no question.

      Do you believe in God? A different higher power? Or nothing at all?

      Such as Cats or Dogs, Girls, or Boys, etc.

      There was no "Discuss" in the question, but alas, there is the diversity of this subject.

      Just remember that the Mods are the higher power on this forum, and if this becomes a slanging match as the In Today's News thread has become, you will feel our presence.

      Read this: http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,32939.0.html
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #44: Sep 15, 2014 11:43:00 am
      No
      nnilswerdna
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      Re: Do you Believe?
      Reply #45: Sep 15, 2014 11:49:15 am
      Ricky Gervais said this a few years back.  For a guy like me, who doesn't believe I think it's perfect.  Very Richard Dawkins-like

      Why don't you believe in God? I get that question all the time. I always try to give a sensitive, reasoned answer. This is usually awkward, time consuming and pointless. People who believe in God don't need proof of his existence, and they certainly don't want evidence to the contrary. They are happy with their belief. They even say things like "it's true to me" and "it's faith." I still give my logical answer because I feel that not being honest would be patronizing and impolite. It is ironic therefore that "I don't believe in God because there is absolutely no scientific evidence for his existence and from what I've heard the very definition is a logical impossibility in this known universe," comes across as both patronizing and impolite.


      Arrogance is another accusation. Which seems particularly unfair. Science seeks the truth. And it does not discriminate. For better or worse it finds things out. Science is humble. It knows what it knows and it knows what it doesn't know. It bases its conclusions and beliefs on hard evidence—evidence that is constantly updated and upgraded. It doesn't get offended when new facts come along. It embraces the body of knowledge. It doesn't hold on to medieval practices because they are tradition. If it did, you wouldn't get a shot of penicillin, you'd pop a leach down your trousers and pray. Whatever you "believe," this is not as effective as medicine. Again you can say, "It works for me," but so do placebos. My point being, I'm saying God doesn't exist. I'm not saying faith doesn't exist. I know faith exists. I see it all the time. But believing in something doesn't make it true. Hoping that something is true doesn't make it true. The existence of God is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn't. It's not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions. But you can't have your own facts.

      Why don't I believe in God? No, no, no, why do YOU believe in God? Surely the burden of proof is on the believer. You started all this. If I came up to you and said, "Why don't you believe I can fly?" You'd say, "Why would I?" I'd reply, "Because it's a matter of faith." If I then said, "Prove I can't fly. Prove I can't fly see. See, you can't prove it can you?" You'd probably either walk away, call security or throw me out of the window and shout, "F—ing fly then you lunatic."

      This, is of course a spirituality issue, religion is a different matter. As an atheist, I see nothing "wrong" in believing in a God. I don't think there is a God, but belief in him does no harm. If it helps you in any way, then that's fine with me. It's when belief starts infringing on other people's rights that it worries me. I would never deny your right to believe in a God. I would just rather you didn't kill people who believe in a different god, say. Or stone someone to death because your rule book says their sexuality is immoral. It's strange that anyone who believes that an all-powerful, all-knowing, omniscient power responsible for everything would also want to judge and punish people for what they are.

      From what I can gather, pretty much the worst type of person you can be is an atheist. The first four commandments hammer this point home. There is a God, I'm him, no one else is, you're not as good and don't forget it. (Don't murder anyone, doesn't get a mention until number 6.)

      When confronted with anyone who holds my lack of religious faith in such contempt, I say, "It's the way God made me."

      But what are atheists really being accused of?

      The dictionary definition of God is "a supernatural creator and overseer of the universe." Included in this definition are all deities, goddesses and supernatural beings. Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities.

      So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I'll say "Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?…" If they say "Just God. I only believe in the one God," I'll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don't believe in 2,870 gods, and they don't believe in 2,869.

      I used to believe in God. The Christian one that is.

      I loved Jesus. He was my hero. More than pop stars. More than footballers. More than God. God was by definition omnipotent and perfect. Jesus was a man. He had to work at it. He had temptation but defeated sin. He had integrity and courage. But He was my hero because He was kind. And He was kind to everyone. He didn't bow to peer pressure or tyranny or cruelty. He didn't care who you were. He loved you. What a guy. I wanted to be just like Him.

      One day when I was about 8 years old, I was drawing the crucifixion as part of my Bible studies homework. I loved art too. And nature. I loved how God made all the animals. They were also perfect. Unconditionally beautiful. It was an amazing world.

      I lived in a very poor, working-class estate in an urban sprawl called Reading, about 40 miles west of London. My father was a laborer and my mother was a housewife. I was never ashamed of poverty. It was almost noble. Also, everyone I knew was in the same situation, and I had everything I needed. School was free. My clothes were cheap and always clean and ironed. And mum was always cooking. She was cooking the day I was drawing on the cross.

      I was sitting at the kitchen table when my brother came home. He was 11 years older than me, so he would have been 19. He was as smart as anyone I knew, but he was too cheeky. He would answer back and get into trouble. I was a good boy. I went to church and believed in God — what a relief for a working-class mother. You see, growing up where I did, mums didn't hope as high as their kids growing up to be doctors; they just hoped their kids didn't go to jail. So bring them up believing in God and they'll be good and law abiding. It's a perfect system. Well, nearly. Some 75% of Americans are God-fearing Christians; 75% of prisoners are God-fearing Christians. Some 10% of Americans are atheists; 0.2% of prisoners are atheists.

      But anyway, there I was happily drawing my hero when my big brother Bob asked, "Why do you believe in God?" Just a simple question. But my mum panicked. "Bob," she said in a tone that I knew meant, "Shut up." Why was that a bad thing to ask? If there was a God and my faith was strong it didn't matter what people said.

      Oh… hang on. There is no God. He knows it, and she knows it deep down. It was as simple as that. I started thinking about it and asking more questions, and within an hour, I was an atheist.

      Wow. No God. If mum had lied to me about God, had she also lied to me about Santa? Yes, of course, but who cares? The gifts kept coming. And so did the gifts of my newfound atheism. The gifts of truth, science, nature. The real beauty of this world. I learned of evolution—a theory so simple that only England's greatest genius could have come up with it. Evolution of plants, animals and us–-with imagination, free will, love, humor. I no longer needed a reason for my existence, just a reason to live. And imagination, free will, love, humor, fun, music, sports, beer and pizza are all good enough reasons for living.

      But living an honest life—for that you need the truth. That's the other thing I learned that day: that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, in the end leads to liberation and dignity.

      So what does the question "Why don't you believe in God?" really mean? I think when someone asks that they are really questioning their own belief. In a way they are asking, "What makes you so special?" "How come you weren't brainwashed with the rest of us?" "How dare you say I'm a fool and I'm not going to heaven, f— you!" Let's be honest, if one person believed in God he would be considered pretty strange. But because it's a very popular view it's accepted. And why is it such a popular view? That's obvious. It's an attractive proposition. Believe in me and live forever. Again if it was just a case of spirituality this would be fine.

      "Do unto others…" is a good rule of thumb. I live by that. Forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is. But that's exactly what it is—a virtue. Not just a Christian virtue. No one owns being good. I'm good. I just don't believe I'll be rewarded for it in heaven.

      My reward is here and now. It's knowing that I try to do the right thing. That I lived a good life. And that's where spirituality really lost its way. When it became a stick to beat people with. "Do this or you'll burn in hell."

      You won't burn in hell. But be nice anyway.

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