Do you Believe?

So bits plagiarised or bastardised from earlier faiths and stories, very vague, ingenuous information and open to later interpretations then.  Made all the worse by this knowledge, whilst not being the accepted truth of the time, was about for a long time before this.

Plagiarised,bastardised from earlier faiths? Which ones mate? What other book gives a description accurate as the verses from the Quran?.

http://youtu.be/-xwPVgRaROA

Billy Connolly tells it like it is!

Plagiarised,bastardised from earlier faiths? Which ones mate? What other book gives a description accurate as the verses from the Quran?.

Made from clay stuff for starters and as I said, the knowledge was already out there, it wasn't popular knowledge and certainly not widely accepted, but it was known in the BCs.  What a shock that the youngest of the charlatan 'religions' has newer theories and data. I just find all religions to be false, you could even say its my faith, but I truly believe that death makes atheists of us all.  I'm very happy that I can express these beliefs freely here though and I know my opinions may probably offend you, but then religion offends my sensibilities.

Made from clay stuff for starters and as I said, the knowledge was already out there, it wasn't popular knowledge and certainly not widely accepted, but it was known in the BCs.  What a shock that the youngest of the charlatan 'religions' has newer theories and data. I just find all religions to be false, you could even say its my faith, but I truly believe that death makes atheists of us all.  I'm very happy that I can express these beliefs freely here though and I know my opinions may probably offend you, but then religion offends my sensibilities.

Clay stuff? Known in the BC's by whom? & trust me on this I'm not & never will be offended.

You have yet to refute any verse what was posted,the Quran confirms what science has shown.

Would you like to discuss in the Quran about the Cerebrum,Clouds, Sweet water & Salt water not mixing the barrier between them,Plate tectonics, Sound waves, etc, which of the 3 charlatan religions mentioned these in their text?.

Clay stuff? Known in the BC's by whom? & trust me on this I'm not & never will be offended.

You have yet to refute any verse what was posted,the Quran confirms what science has shown.

Would you like to discuss in the Quran about the Cerebrum,Clouds, Sweet water & Salt water not mixing the barrier between them,Plate tectonics, Sound waves, etc, which of the 3 charlatan religions mentioned these in their text?.

Sorry Shabs mate - it's great that you have faith but quoting the occasional verse about embryos looking "leech like" is interesting but not very persuasive in rational terms.

The Quran is littered with scientific errors - as are ALL religious texts - but that's the point; religion is not something you can scientifically "prove" or "rationalise" - that's what "faith" is for - the absence of evidence. If there was strong evidence to support any religion, faith wouldn't be required.

There are many good reasons to follow religiion however rational analysis is not one of them.

Sorry Shabs mate - it's great that you have faith but quoting the occasional verse about embryos looking "leech like" is interesting but not very persuasive in rational terms.

The Quran is littered with scientific errors - as are ALL religious texts - but that's the point; religion is not something you can scientifically "prove" or "rationalise" - that's what "faith" is for - the absence of evidence. If there was strong evidence to support any religion, faith wouldn't be required.

There are many good reasons to follow religiion however rational analysis is not one of them.

Persuasive in rational terms?, its a starting base to investigate claims made in the book & if they are false produce evidence which contradicts those verses, which other scientific errors is the Quran is littered with?, I'm eager to learn about this.

Clay stuff? Known in the BC's by whom? & trust me on this I'm not & never will be offended.

You have yet to refute any verse what was posted,the Quran confirms what science has shown.

Would you like to discuss in the Quran about the Cerebrum,Clouds, Sweet water & Salt water not mixing the barrier between them,Plate tectonics, Sound waves, etc, which of the 3 charlatan religions mentioned these in their text?.

Nothing there that science couldn't theorize at the time, I've no doubt the great scientists of early Persian academia would of had a few, being on a plate that had fairly regular activity.

Persuasive in rational terms?, its a starting base to investigate claims made in the book & if they are false produce evidence which contradicts those verses, which other scientific errors is the Quran is littered with?, I'm eager to learn about this.

Look Shabs, as I said we've got to get real here. If you actually were eager to learn about this, you could simply google it.

I accept you have your faith and have made your mind up. That's fine. But to say someone should choose any religion on a rational basis is a losing wicket.

You cite the few sentences about embryology in the Quran as evidence we should follow that teaching. But if you open this month's "journal of human genetics and embryology" there is an article detailing how a tiny molecular switch releases a protein which is responsible for the formation of the beating heart.

If you were fairly basing your knowledge on a rational decision surely you would have to take the latter rather than the former? The same goes for any of the other scientific "proofs" you have cited.

Science and religion are entirely separate entities. Trying to show how one proves the other is futile and devalues both.

Originally was afraid to come in here; thought it was about Aliens....

I've been brought up in Ireland since I was four, so religion is pushed in your face while you're young and in school. I don't believe as such. I'd be more or less agnostic to be honest.

I'm not saying that I need science to prove an existence for me to believe, but with all the information to hand I cannot blindly follow something that I do not know to exist.
I actually had a discussion in work one day with my colleagues and we did all come to a conclusion though, if something was to happen; say you or a family member ended up in a bad car accident. Would you "pray to god" (not literally) that everything would be ok? Most of us would believe that everything will be ok and we or our family members would recover. But would you reckon it was some divine intervention that saved you/or your family member? Was it the doctors intervention with important medication (maybe gods work again?)?

Someone of religious values would put a recovery like this down to gods will/power. (Just my opinion)

I would be fully willing to believe; should I be given a reason to believe. I cannot trust an ancient book. Especially a book that has been rewritten for several different beliefs and been manipulated in so many different ways.

How can one belief be different to another? If there really was a god, would he really be preaching a different set of beliefs (maybe not core beliefs) to different people? Take the heaven and hell idea for a moment (I don't know much about other beliefs other than what I was thought when younger), are we cast in to damnation but not together, we are separated even after death? Are we allowed to rejoice together behind the pearly gates or again are we segregated based on beliefs?

One thing is for certain, we live and we die. What happens after that, nobody can say. Whether we get reincarnated as a butterfly, or our life just starts afresh as someone else, who cares. Enjoy your life, for all we know, life just ends and that's it.

Maybe we roam the planet as a spirit, maybe we get reincarnated or maybe we do have an afterlife. All I know is that people are free to choose what they believe.

We have evolved as a species over time and certain things are viewed as immoral/inhumane such as the killing of another person. We all agree with this. Yet some beliefs will advocate the very thing we all think is wrong.

At the end of the day, I will live my life how I see fit. I will not let myself be dictated by a "higher power" that may or may not exist. Religion is pretty much a game or roulette, you win or you lose.
However, I will not tell someone what they believe in is wrong. I commend anyone who holds any belief of any kind for having the ability to be able to believe like they do without questioning their beliefs.

In conclusion, I guess some things are best left unanswered. That's our main problem though, we as a species need to prove or have a logical answer/solution for everything which I think has lead to so many people losing beliefs that maybe their family still/or has held in the past.

I'm the same mate.

I'm from Ireland so I could tell you anything you want to know about Christianity and went on to study Religion for my A Levels looking at Islam in close detail.

But I ultimately don't believe but I'm what you'd call a "good athiest" according to this man

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cQHn6j1hc8

DO NOT WATCH THIS IF YOU DONT LIKE OFFENSIVE COMEDY (NO SERIOUSLY DONT)

Nostradamus made predictions in the 16th century which have subsequently been moulded around various events in history.
The assorted bibles are the same, if anyone gives a vague outline of a phenomenon and predicts something of that nature will transpire at some time in the future, the approximate description will at some point coincide with an actual event.
Of course some enterprising individual sussed that harnessed correctly these coincidental events could be used to illicit control over masses of people, accordingly these manuals of mystery were held up as the way to go.
 In the most extreme cases any failure to follow the manuals of mystery could be met with punishment,  sometimes the ultimate penalty being carried out as a warning to others.
As the masses grew enlightened so the manuals of mystery became less so and the multitude grew further knowledgeable.
The enterprising individual had to regain power but how?
 

Five pages of reasonable and reasoned debate, I thought this thread would've degenerated into verbal violence and been well locked by now.

Well done debaters.

Five pages of reasonable and reasoned debate, I thought this thread would've degenerated into verbal violence and been well locked by now.

Well done debaters.

 

Made from clay stuff for starters and as I said, the knowledge was already out there, it wasn't popular knowledge and certainly not widely accepted, but it was known in the BCs.  What a shock that the youngest of the charlatan 'religions' has newer theories and data. I just find all religions to be false, you could even say its my faith, but I truly believe that death makes atheists of us all.  I'm very happy that I can express these beliefs freely here though and I know my opinions may probably offend you, but then religion offends my sensibilities.

That Moore's fella was paid off by Saudi oil dollars to add an "islamic addition" to his work. Much of it has been debunked and isn't worth the time of day.

I know there is a God up there, I always believed there was a God up there but I got pissed with him when Stevie slipped and it made me doubt that there was a God. I have now come to the conlusion that God has more important things to look after then my Sporting team.

I know there is a God up there, I always believed there was a God up there but I got pissed with him when Stevie slipped and it made me doubt that there was a God. I have now come to the conlusion that God has more important things to look after then my Sporting team.

Really? He's got enough time on his hands to sort Leeds out 

That Moore's fella was paid off by Saudi oil dollars to add an "islamic addition" to his work. Much of it has been debunked and isn't worth the time of day.

..... Well go on then! post the evidence love.

Five pages of reasonable and reasoned debate, I thought this thread would've degenerated into verbal violence and been well locked by now.

Well done debaters.

Keep it kosher is all i ask

That Moore's fella was paid off by Saudi oil dollars to add an "islamic addition" to his work. Much of it has been debunked and isn't worth the time of day.

Did a liitle research.  The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine.

The co-writer of Moore's book is a leading militant Islamist named Abdul Majeed al-Zindani. He is the founder and head of the Iman University in Yemen, head of the Yemeni Muslim Brotherhood political movement and founder of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah (one of the organizations that spearheaded Bucailleism), based in Saudi Arabia.

As for the co-author Zindani, he served as a contact for Ansar al-Islam (Al), a Kurdish-based terrorist organization linked to al-Qaeda, has links to John Walker Lindh and Anwar al-Awlaki, and in 2004 the US Treasury Department published a press release stating that the United States had by executive order designated Zindani as a "Specially Designated Global Terrorist.

Really? He's got enough time on his hands to sort Leeds out 

Not even God has that sort of time. 

Did a liitle research.  The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine.

The co-writer of Moore's book is a leading militant Islamist named Abdul Majeed al-Zindani. He is the founder and head of the Iman University in Yemen, head of the Yemeni Muslim Brotherhood political movement and founder of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah (one of the organizations that spearheaded Bucailleism), based in Saudi Arabia.

As for the co-author Zindani, he served as a contact for Ansar al-Islam (Al), a Kurdish-based terrorist organization linked to al-Qaeda, has links to John Walker Lindh and Anwar al-Awlaki, and in 2004 the US Treasury Department published a press release stating that the United States had by executive order designated Zindani as a "Specially Designated Global Terrorist.

That very interesting, was not aware of this ,can you share a link for your research?.

Did a liitle research.  The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine.

The co-writer of Moore's book is a leading militant Islamist named Abdul Majeed al-Zindani. He is the founder and head of the Iman University in Yemen, head of the Yemeni Muslim Brotherhood political movement and founder of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah (one of the organizations that spearheaded Bucailleism), based in Saudi Arabia.

As for the co-author Zindani, he served as a contact for Ansar al-Islam (Al), a Kurdish-based terrorist organization linked to al-Qaeda, has links to John Walker Lindh and Anwar al-Awlaki, and in 2004 the US Treasury Department published a press release stating that the United States had by executive order designated Zindani as a "Specially Designated Global Terrorist.

Yep, pretty much found the same stuff on him and his friend. Trying to get a 'Westerner' on board to legitimize their claim. It isn't worth the time of day, still, it seems to console the delirious.

That very interesting, was not aware of this ,can you share a link for your research?.

Several different ones, just searched the author's name.

Several different ones, just searched the author's name.

Oh I see what you have done 



Links to Islamic Terrorists[edit]

The co-writer of Moore's book is a leading militant Islamist named Abdul Majeed al-Zindani. He is the founder and head of the Iman University in Yemen, head of the Yemeni Muslim Brotherhood political movement and founder of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah (one of the organizations that spearheaded Bucailleism), based in Saudi Arabia.[5]

Zindani served as a contact for Ansar al-Islam (Al), a Kurdish-based terrorist organization linked to al-Qaeda, has links to John Walker Lindh and Anwar al-Awlaki, and in 2004 the US Treasury Department published a press release stating that the United States had by executive order designated Zindani as a "Specially Designated Global Terrorist".[6]

Interestingly, the Acknowledgments for the book recognize a number of “distinguished scholars” who supported the book with time or money. And number 6 on the list is Saifullah Shaykh Osama bin Laden (Zindani had a long history of working with bin Laden, notably serving as one of his spiritual leaders).[6]

Moore's Current Views[edit]

The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine[7]

For example, in 1986 he wrote that "The drop or nutfa [in Surah 23:13] has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"),"[8] but in the 8th edition of The Developing Human (published 2007), he writes that "Growth of science was slow during the medieval period... human beings [according to the Qur'an] are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and female. Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a nutfa (small drop). It also states that the resulting organism settles in the womb like a seed, 6 days after its beginning."[9]

This shows that Moore's previous statements on embryology in the Qur'an were not based on science, but merely the result of patronage by the Saudi royal family.

J. Needham, a well known authority on the history of embryology and a reference cited in Keith Moore's books, has also dismissed embryology in the Qur'an as merely "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda."[10]

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dr._Keith_Moore_and_the_Islamic_Additions


Wikkislam?    great source