OK, so far we're not very good. What are the reasons and how do we fix it?

Even the most rose tinted amongst us would be hard pressed to deny we look a shadow of last seasons swashbuckling outfit. In truth we've been poor in every match bar Spurs away, so what has changed since last season (I know but what ELSE has changed?), what are the problems, what can we do in the short term to fix them, do some require longer term planning?

Firstly, lets have a look at the problems:

The defence: In fairness we were poor last season here too, but it's hard to argue we've improved much if any. Initial solidity from set pieces has been replaced with the familiar vulnerability, and despite changing much of the personnel the same basic problems remain. I like Lovren (although he's testing my patience right now), I like Sakho, I like Skrtel. I like the new full backs too, so where is the problem and what is the fix? It seems to me there are two things we can do here, one in the short term and one in the medium. Firstly, although I've resisted the calls in the past I think it may be time to look at a defensive coach who isn't either Brendan or Colin Pascoe. Just a fresh pair of eyes wouldn't go amiss, someone who can stir things up a little. To my mind we should either defend full on zonal (we'll call it "Rafa style" for the sake of argument) from set pieces, or full on man to man. That shambles yesterday looked to me like a combination of both and it was awful. Still, I'm not the defensive coach so for that's for them to sort out, but we need clarity of thought in there.

The other thing we can do is look at the goalkeeper, who unfortunately is going backwards apace. Those who advocated keeping Pepe Reina in the Summer are due an apology from those of us who said they were talking bollocks. Reina is nowhere near the keeper he was, but his form prior to him leaving for Napoli was some way ahead of where Mignolet is right now. We need a viable alternative and fast, Jones obviously isn't the right man so we might have to wait till January. I'm beginning to think though that until we lance this particular boil, we are going to have the same problems repeatedly.

The midfield: Gerrard as the holder was a wonderful innovation last season, but this time around a combination teams working it out, Gerrards legginess and the reluctance of others to take responsibility has made it not work at all. Unfortunately we have little other options, Lucas is less viable by the week, Can is injured, Allen is injured and unless we play Henderson in there Gerrard seemingly stays. I'd be tempted to get a bit radical here and move Henderson in there short term. This would force him into taking more responsibility, and would also free up Stevie into the right midfield slot of a diamond which I think he could perform well. Manquillo is nowhere near so cavalier as Moreno so his defensive duties wouldn't be onerous on that side, while his delivery from the right hand quarter of the pitch would give us some much needed cutting edge. It wouldn't be necessary for him to play every game there either, he could dovetail with Lallana, leaving Allen and Markovic to form a good option left side. Sterling could dovetail with Coutinho/Lallana in the 10 slot when he's not up top, and I am currently convinced this would make us harder to play against.

The front: Has Balotelli been a success? Yes and no. Yes in the sense that he personally has performed pretty well, but no in the sense his presence has coincided with us performing very poorly as a team. Of course you can't blame all of that on the big man, but unless and until we sort out the issue of having someone operating near him who runs channels, gives and goes and generally provides a bit of zip to our attack we look pedestrian. Obviously it's been unfortunate that Sturridge got injured, in their one appearance together they terrorised Spurs. That said Sturridge will get injured again so we'd better work out a plan B. Mine would be to play Sterling alongside Balotelli in such situations, I think Borini did enough yesterday to show that he isn't really the answer (to any question you care to think of if we're honest).

Lastly it's an attitude and responsibility thing. We currently need leaders who are going to take responsibility, stand up and play for the shirt. That starts against Middlesboro on Tuesday, and I hope the boss uses it to not only give squad players a game, but also to try and put into practice some of the changes he's inevitably (it seems to me anyway) going to have to make. We're not in crisis but we could be soon, time for a rethink and cool heads.     

We need to find a bird of prey that swoops down on owls.

Let's send Mighty Red to Wembley rather than prancing around at Anfield.



Regarding the team - in addition to the above I'd say the Strategic issues are:

1. Replacing Mignolet - Time is running out for him to have established himself as the player we are going to build our defence around. We can't afford to wait another two seasons to make the decision.

2. Backline seems sorted, two spanish fullback and Lovren and Sakho in the middle - time is needed to allow them to gel and develop consistency

3. Philosophy and control of play - it's not clear yet how this team is aiming to play and who will be setting the tempo during matches. If we are returning to a patient, sterile domination type game, Stevie is not that man.

4. the transition of Stevie out of the team - this is the big one for me as pointed out in the other thread. How Brendan handles this will define his legacy as a manager in my view.

5. Playing Sterling in the best position

6. Expanding our options if Sturridge is injured.

I believe all the issues are systematic. If you look at the goals we are conceding you will see that a) zonal is not working, b) Mignolet is not commanding his 6yard box and c) nobody is leading the line or commanding the area. The defence sorted, I would then ensure that a DM is sorted. Gerrard is too slow now for it and we need to sort that position.

If you look at utd, all they have now is pace, killing teams by Di Marias pace.

All we need is our pace back. Where has that gone? I dont get it.

b) and c) appear to problems with players rather than the system, no?

The problem with our pace is quite simple - pace only works when you have space to run into. If teams stretch themselves and leave lareg gaps at the back we can carve them up.

If we concede early goals, the other team just has to mark Stevie, sit back, give us the ball. press in their own half and park the bus. Our pace becomes useless.

Good post Mick, but just as a tool for those who are considering the options going forward it might be worth asking who wouldn't you change.

That list is incredibly short for me at the moment. Moreno, Sterling and Sturridge.

We're a team full of potential, we're a team full of players who could be great such as Manquillo, Can, Coutinho, Balotelli, Lovren, Ilori, Origi, but the most obvious thing for me is that there's nothing there that shows we have any real strength in the middle of the park. The Henderson, Gerrard, Lucas and Allen debates roll on and on but no matter what side of the fence you sit on those debates our midfield wouldn't scare anyone these days I'm afraid. Gerrard isn't world class anymore no matter how much you try and convince yourself that he is, Henderson can show glimmers of greatness but he regresses back into those very ordinary periods that have me questioning the lad many times and Allen has never really (outside of the first few games with us) shown anything to suggest he's much more than ordinary.

I'll admit there was part of me this summer that wanted Brendan to get his first choice signings, there was another part that didn't as I have had serious doubts about his ability in the transfer market for a long time. At this moment in time I'm still far from convinced we've bought the players we actually needed and as I said last night I'm afraid some of my worst fears might well be confirmed.

What has happened to our ability to make simple passes or even keep hold of the ball? It seems the whole system is set up for Stevie to make his 60 yard passes and if he is man marked and not able to then somebody else starts lumping it!
Not sure if it is a loss of confidence, impatience or Brendan's insistence but there is no composure within the team they seem like 11 Skrtel's on the pitch at the moment, shitting themselves each time the ball comes close.

I'm not against the controller at the back but we need flexibility during the match to play what is in front and if it need be change.
The last decent passing move I saw was against Spurs with Hendo laying on the pass to Raheem to score. We could and should have been able to pass through West Ham with our short incisive passing game but with Stevie sitting further back than the CB's this was not likely to occur.

Bottom line is we need more in game intelligence to see what is happening and adapt our play accordingly. And that's from the manager also not just the players.

b) and c) appear to problems with players rather than the system, no?

The problem with our pace is quite simple - pace only works when you have space to run into. If teams stretch themselves and leave lareg gaps at the back we can carve them up.

If we concede early goals, the other team just has to mark Stevie, sit back, give us the ball. press in their own half and park the bus. Our pace becomes useless.

Ye thats the template most teams will use against us. But saying that last season was the same, we drew teams on to us and then hit them with blistering pace. Maybe we always scored 1st.

It seems the whole system is set up for Stevie to make his 60 yard passes and if he is man marked and not able to then somebody else starts lumping it!

Over use of that, and the addition of Moreno appears to have increased this tactic. Not good.

I think it's a combination of poor defensive organisation and lacking a spine of quality players in key positions.

Just compare the personnel we have at GK, CB and CM now with what we had around about 07-09 and the gap in quality is fairly shocking.

We'll no doubt improve when Sturridge comes back and our new signings bed in, but I still think we're about 3-4 'top' players short of challenging.

Ye thats the template most teams will use against us. But saying that last season was the same, we drew teams on to us and then hit them with blistering pace. Maybe we always scored 1st.

The challenge this season was always going to be how to break down teams that parked the bus against us.

We woefully failed to do that last season in the Chelsea game and, of course, teams were always going to learn from that if they weren't scared enough by the pacy players we bought in the window.

Still, it wouldn't matter if we could actually take our chances when they come. Borini and Balotelli both look rusty at the moment but they will improve with gametime.

But this is exactly the reason why we needed a player like Eto'o or Remy. Someone with a good first touch and the ability to finish clinically.

We didn't buy players we SHOULD have got. This season so far, we look worse than when BR took over, rather than continuing on from last season. We're still shockingly bad at the back, but now nowhere near as deadly in attack. 

Truth is we won't finish top 4 IMO. I think Utd will get back in. They were prepared to do whatever necessary to make sure last season was a one off. And I don't care what anyone else thinks. We should have gone all out to secure Falcao. A genuine world class striker to accompany Sturridge. It's not like it's  a situation he would be unaccustomed to.

We didn't buy players we SHOULD have got. This season so far, we look worse than when BR took over, rather than continuing on from last season. We're still shockingly bad at the back, but now nowhere near as deadly in attack. 

Truth is we won't finish top 4 IMO. I think Utd will get back in. They were prepared to do whatever necessary to make sure last season was a one off. And I don't care what anyone else thinks. We should have gone all out to secure Falcao. A genuine world class striker to accompany Sturridge. It's not like it's  a situation he would be unaccustomed to.

How would Falcao have sorted our defensive woes?

We didn't buy players we SHOULD have got. This season so far, we look worse than when BR took over, rather than continuing on from last season. We're still shockingly bad at the back, but now nowhere near as deadly in attack. 

Truth is we won't finish top 4 IMO. I think Utd will get back in. They were prepared to do whatever necessary to make sure last season was a one off. And I don't care what anyone else thinks. We should have gone all out to secure Falcao. A genuine world class striker to accompany Sturridge. It's not like it's  a situation he would be unaccustomed to.

Wrong thread mate, think you were looking for this one - http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,12947.0.html

it is hard not to make comments at the minute that appear to be "knee Jerk" alright. Its all so fu**ed up.

No. I don't think so somehow. Played 6 and of those 6 played 1 well. So hardly knee jerk at all.

Time and a little patience, two things that a few posters are already seemingly lacking in, judging by some of the posts I've read.

Good op Mick. My two cents...

Defense - think we have a really good selection of CBs/FBs now, good ability, better than last season. Yes they need more time to gel, but imo they still look a bit loose. Migs is not helping, he's deffo looks out of sorts, and selling Reina now looks a bad decision without getting in solid backup.
I'm not sure how the defensive coaching is going but:
   a) think the back 5 needs work, on defending as unit
   b) but almost as importantly, the team as whole needs to be more solid at set pieces, were we have looked really poor. Was really pissed at Hendo yest

Midfield - the age old question of SG. I deffo get defensive here cause am 100% behind behind him - and find it ridiculous that on a day like yest, when we were sh*te almost everywhere, that he gets single out for a clatter in his detractor thread yet again. He hasn't been great so far, no doubt. But Lucas's legs went almost a year ago, we know they don't work together. Needs Hendo doing lots of legwork around him. I actually would like to see SG rested for some games, but if the backup options are injured/off form, we're short on choice.
So why we played Lucas yest? The answer is what is bugging me the most. Cause Lallana and Markovic have been so poor. The problems at the moment are not so much the players on the pitch, but the ones that aren't. Know some think Markovic has shown something, but I've not seen it so far. Lallana looks a shadow of the guy who wriggled through challenges last year. BR has invested a lot of money, and trust in them lads - we need them to grown a pair of f**king balls, stop passing the ball to the sides and back, and make sh*t f**king happen. We're still depending on Coutinho and Sterling - after all the cash spent - so I'm not going to be hard on Coutinho when he has a dip, he has some credit in the bank. Can too, haven't seen enough of him yet, and not sure how anyone can say he is up to stepping into SGs shoes without seeing a lot more of him. Allen is missed too.

Attack - we didn't sign a really top drawer striker. Aquero/RVP/Studge level. For whatever reason, they wouldn't come, not available, too expensive. We left it late and given our options, I thought BR signing Mario was a good option. Looking at him now, and still early days, would agree it's been hit and miss. He can do great individual things, but sometimes his movement/team work could be better. Lambert's form has not been good, he's had some dodgy cameos. And it's a combination of both of the above, Rickie's form, and the need for movement up beside Mario, that Borini has had a chance. I still don't rate him, don't think he's a goalscorer, but he does run about and we need that beside Mario. Studge being out has really shone a light on the other 3 lads, and so far, only Mario has made any real impact -  we need him back, loosing him has completely unbalanced us up front.

Still early days. But so far, 'main reason' for slump for me is combination of new guys settling in (defense), and under-performing (midfield/attack). Some of the existing guys are also not playing well (Coutinho), but we had a summer and a LOT of cash to buy guys to come in and do a job, so am not going to come down on the boys who got us to 2nd last season, and performed so brilliantly. There was a lot of talk about 'marque signings' in the summer. and why we should not make any with our windfall - BR did his business early and seemed to get his men - so he and all of us will be hoping they eventually come good.

Time and a little patience, two things that a few posters are already seemingly lacking in, judging by some of the posts I've read.

Exactly.
We've not clicked yet, but we will.

What's all this settling in gelling together everyone keeps bringing up. West Ham had more new faces in their line up and still completely muller end us. It's more than new players the system as is at the moment is not functioning.

First off, great post mick. The problem with the defence as I see it is two fold and related to each other. First there's the lack of any leadership in the Defence. Lovren was meant to provide that but either the players aren't listening or he's not saying the right things. As a result of this there's a lack of cohesion in the back four who operate as individuals rather than a unit, especially in set pieces. There's a lack of mutual coverage, a lack of vision and a tendency to switch off leading to a lack of composure. There was a moment in yesterday's game in the first half where the three centre backs all turned their back and started strolling back in to position thinking the ball had gone out only to find it hadn't. If that's a better team it's a goal. It was ironic that in the first half our best defender was actually Balotelli, our main striker. I think he cleared more balls than Lovren, Skrtel and Sahko combined. I've been saying it for some time now. We keep changing playing personnel and its getting us nowhere in improving the defence. Time for a change of backroom personnel to see if that helps.

Midfield is where our main problems lie though and it's not poor Stevie who's become the whipping boy for our poor performances. Criticise where criticism is due but criticising a player for not being able to play the ball around or lacking movement because he was man marked out of the game is unfair. It wouldn't matter who was in there, they'd suffer the same problems. Furthermore, where's the pace gone? Where's the accuracy of passing gone? There's no urgency, no passion, no confidence in there. The midfield is playing like it's the end of a very long, hard season, not the beginning of one. They look tired and whether that's a World Cup hang over or problems in training I don't know but it needs to be fixed. Brendan Rodgers needs to take a big slice of criticism for this because in neither the Villa, Ludogarats or West Ham games where Stevie was being marked out of it, he did nothing to mix it up. He could have taken him off or moved him forward or switch his role around with someone else but he stood on the touch line frowning with no apparent plan B. That's unacceptable and he needs to learn. So should a large part of the blame fall upon the players playing around Gerrard because seeing that he's being man marked out of the game, the onus is on them to pick up the slack and take over his role to the best of their ability. But they didn't and we suffer as a result.

Up front we have several factors coming in to play. We've been unlucky with the international break inevitably resulting in Sturridge being crocked (seriously, you'd think Woy was purposefully trying to antagonise LFC) and Balotelli being new. Mario is going to need time to get used to a way of playing he's never had to participate in before and he's largely done well in the circumstances but it's not been helped poor team selection by Brendan. It's been clear as day to everyone that he (like Sturridge) play better with a strike partner yet it was only yesterday that he opted to use one. As a result, Balotelli had some good moments in the game, especially the piece of skill that lead to our goal. On a side note, for people wondering why we're not playing Lambert, consider his style of play for a moment. He likes to use his strength to hold the ball up and turn defenders using his power to compensate for a lack of pace to shoot from range. Sound familiar? It should do because that's exactly the type of player Mario is and he's younger. It's an either Baloteli or Lambert, not both.

please stop using the word unlucky its the same for all the teams after CL footie or internationals. You do not have time in this league you have the next game and as for patience that's for the manager not for the fans. We have made poor selections and when I saw Borini I couldn't believe it I really couldn't but then I saw Lucas who I have always like but since his last injury he is fu**ed. Poor  selection poor tactics and poor all round performance and most of all our tempo has been awful, pedestrian at times. When you spend £100mil you expect to improve we have gone backwards.

I'm not sure the diamond is the best way for us to play, yes it gets Raheem going at teams, but he can do that from anywhere, with the fullbacks bombing forward, we don't have any players to double up with them...I know Balo/Studge will drift out wide, but thats not the same as an inside forward from a 4-3-3 tracking back to help a 3 man midfield, the 4-1-2-1-2 leaves us very exposed in the midfield area as we haven't got enough players to much the opposition who will often play a 5 man midfield. I know West Ham played a diamond, but even so - is there ever going to be a Big Sam team that DOESN'T work the ball out wide for crosses to a big man?

I think we need a slight change of emphasis rather than all out attack (like last season - Brendan seems to be trying to use the same tactics as the ones that worked so well with Luis here) go to control a game rather than the gung ho approach, maybe we'd score 2/3 as many goals, but it does seem a bit as though we attack SO much we're often pushed to get back into defensive position quickly enough.

Your last paragraph is the answer to your own question Mick - we need leaders and experienced ones at that.

I have just finished watching City vs Chelsea. What a contrast in quality and leadership these two teams have in comparison to us. Let's do a comparison:

GK: Courtais - imposes himself excellently on the opponents. Is very decisive and those decisions are almost always the correct ones. Young but full of confidence.
Hart - sometimes inconsistent with his shot stopping, but commands the penalty area excellently. Is very vocal and usually makes the correct decision.
Mignolet - Started his career well at Liverpool with a decisive double save. Since then, he has sparked anxiety into the defence when defending set pieces and crosses. He is a very indecisive goalkeeper, and when he does make a decision in the heat of the moment (to run out or collect the cross), he sometimes changes that decision which results with him in no mans land. His shot stopping is decent, but I can recall many shots he hasn't saved that he absolutely should have!

City were all over Chelsea at large periods of the game today. Just as they looked as if they were going to pull the trigger, one Chelsea defender would commit himself and make a last ditch block or tackle. Even though the game ended one a piece, it was an excellent defensive game from Chelsea today. City also looked well composed in defense and were rarely troubled. So let's consider the defenders. Kompany (great leader), Mangala (motm today). Ivanovic, Terry, Cahill and Azpilicueta are four excellent defenders as well. They are experienced, they are leaders, and they ooze confidence. Both teams have decent central midfielders too. Midfielders who have that grit, yet possess an excellent level of technical ability. Matic, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Fernandinho are all tough players who are not afraid of getting stuck in. They are all leaders, they are tactically astute, and they possess great technical ability. Both teams possess excellent attackers too - Schurlle, Oscar, Hazard, Costa for Chelsea and Navas, Nasri, Silva, Dzeko, Aguero for City. These above mentioned players are all experienced, and they all possess unbelievable ability.

Now I know this isn't a Chelsea-City thread, but what I am trying to do is highlight just how far behind we are in terms of experience, leadership, and ability.

If you were to do a City-Chelsea-Liverpool XI, would anyone from the Liverpool team get into the team? Maybe Sterling and Sturridge, but where the others are concerned.. no chance.


An XI would look something like this:

                         Courtais
Ivanovic  Kompany  Terry  Azpilicueta
                          Matic
                    Yaya      Silva
     Sturridge         Costa           Aguero


What Rodgers needs to do is buy players who are more appropriate for a club of such magnitude. Every transfer window we lose out on our primary targets. Yes geography and team potential plays a huge part, but so do wages. Without trying to disrespect the city of Liverpool, if two champions league teams come in for you and one offer is from a London club with competitive wages, then you'd most likely chose the London club. So why would a club in the north of England have the arrogance to offer that same player lesser wages? Not just is the quality of life decreased (again, no offense to the city of Liverpool), but the wages are also smaller. To add to that, we haven't even featured in the CL for a good six years. I just do not understand why we'd low ball teams and players given our circumstances. Geography is against us, our lack of recent success and CL football is against us, so wouldn't we try and offset that by offering better wages? Instead we resort to this 'buy into the clubs philosophy bollocks' hoping players come here putting their football before their wages. Like f**k that will happen. Footballers have a life outside of football too.

So rumours have it that Marco Reus may be available next summer. If Arsenal come in for him and offer him £130k per week, then let's better that and offer him £150k per week. We are Liverpool for f**k sakes, not Everton.