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      Are we a selling club?

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      CoutinhoRed
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      Are we a selling club?
      Oct 03, 2014 01:03:16 pm
      There isn't much need to elaborate on the title - it's pretty self explanatory. Are we a selling club?

      If the general consensus was that we are a selling club, then why is that and how can we prevent it from happening in the future?

      A club of this magnitude deserves a better status than that. The same could be argued that Arsenal were a selling club up until the departure of Robin Van Persie. However the difference being that they've actually retained their best players since then, and have added some world class players in the process.

      What can we do to keep our best players away from the likes of Chelsea, Barca or Madrid in the future?

      Xabi Alonso
      Javier Mascherano
      Fernando Torres
      Luis Suarez
      Raheem Sterling?
      Swab
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #1: Oct 03, 2014 01:05:56 pm
      Players wanting to leave doesn't make us a selling club.
      If you can tell us all a sure fire way to keep players who want to move to spain, then crack on.
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #2: Oct 03, 2014 01:09:28 pm
      Players wanting to leave doesn't make us a selling club.
      If you can tell us all a sure fire way to keep players who want to move to spain, then crack on.

      But why do players want to leave? I see Aguero and Silva are pretty content playing in Manchester themselves, and have been so for the last 3-4 years.

      Surely we should be able to keep our top players in the same manner that City and Chelsea have kept their top players.

      Is it wages? Lack of ambition from the club?
      HScRed1
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #3: Oct 03, 2014 01:21:02 pm
      But why do players want to leave? I see Aguero and Silva are pretty content playing in Manchester themselves, and have been so for the last 3-4 years.



      Surely we should be able to keep our top players in the same manner that City and Chelsea have kept their top players.

      Is it wages? Lack of ambition from the club?


      Have you seen City's wage bill they are the highest paying sporting outfit in the world nevermind football....So yes wages does go a long way to explaing the attraction of City - can't be their history or past success in europe!!
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #4: Oct 03, 2014 01:22:56 pm

      Have you seen City's wage bill they are the highest paying sporting outfit in the world nevermind football....So yes wages does go a long way to explaing the attraction of City - can't be their history or past success in europe!!


      I agree, but also, not being in CL on a consistent basis doesn't help too.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #5: Oct 03, 2014 01:37:23 pm
      Every player has a value so aren't all clubs a selling club?

      If we offered 250m for Messi it would get accepted.

      If Raheem wants to play football elsewhere later on in his career then I'll hold no grudge - It might be for money. It might be because he wants to move himself and his family to Madrid and experience nice weather every day. It might be because he wants to win the European cup or experience playing in LA Liga.

      What does annoy me, is when/if we sell players to other clubs in the prem (top 6). I can't understand why we would do business with those clubs or why any player would want to leave us for them in the first place.

      If your reading this Fernando, F**k you.

      5timesacharm
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #6: Oct 03, 2014 01:43:24 pm
      There isn't much need to elaborate on the title - it's pretty self explanatory. Are we a selling club?

      If the general consensus was that we are a selling club, then why is that and how can we prevent it from happening in the future?

      A club of this magnitude deserves a better status than that. The same could be argued that Arsenal were a selling club up until the departure of Robin Van Persie. However the difference being that they've actually retained their best players since then, and have added some world class players in the process.

      What can we do to keep our best players away from the likes of Chelsea, Barca or Madrid in the future?

      Xabi Alonso
      Javier Mascherano
      Fernando Torres
      Luis Suarez
      Raheem Sterling?

      No we're not. You may as well suggest Real Madrid are a selling club when they release players. All clubs do. Our problem doesn't lie in the selling of players, it lies in the quality of their replacements which we have repeatedly failed to do successfully since the Premier League began. Loosing Suarez isn't a big deal if he's replaced with quality. The most successful teams don't sell Alonso and replace him with a crocked Aquiliani. They bring equal or better quality to the club. When we learn to replace quality with quality like we did in the 70s and 80s then our fortunes will rise once more.
      Del Boca Vista
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #7: Oct 03, 2014 01:57:04 pm
      every club is a selling club..

      why don't you crunch the numbers and see how we stack up against actual selling clubs? who even are the selling clubs? so many of the ones you might list like Atletico or Udinese only do it because they're struggling off field. so they might get the stigma of being a 'selling club' because they have to. but what clubs actually have the philosophy of buying cheap and selling high? no club would set out to do that.
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #8: Oct 03, 2014 01:57:37 pm
      No we're not. You may as well suggest Real Madrid are a selling club when they release players. All clubs do. Our problem doesn't lie in the selling of players, it lies in the quality of their replacements which we have repeatedly failed to do successfully since the Premier League began. Loosing Suarez isn't a big deal if he's replaced with quality. The most successful teams don't sell Alonso and replace him with a crocked Aquiliani. They bring equal or better quality to the club. When we learn to replace quality with quality like we did in the 70s and 80s then our fortunes will rise once more.

      You have made a good point. So you've accepted that top players need replacing, so we'll see who in effect we have replaced here:

      Xabi Alonso - Alberto Aquilani
      Javier Mascherano - cannot remember
      Fernando Torres - Andy Carroll
      Luis Suarez - Mario Balotelli
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #9: Oct 03, 2014 02:03:48 pm
      every club is a selling club..

      why don't you crunch the numbers and see how we stack up against actual selling clubs? who even are the selling clubs? so many of the ones you might list like Atletico or Udinese only do it because they're struggling off field.

      Selling players who are surplus to requirements does not make you a selling club

      Selling key players and not replacing them does make you a selling club.

      You talk about Atletico being a selling club but when they sold Sergio Aguero for £38m, they brought in Falcao that very same summer for £40m.

      It's slightly different to selling Suarez for £75m and then bringing in Balotelli for £16m, isn't it? By no means am I saying we had to go out and buy Neymar or Messi, but we could have done a lot better than Mario for goodness sake!
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #10: Oct 03, 2014 02:03:57 pm
      You have made a good point. So you've accepted that top players need replacing, so we'll see who in effect we have replaced here:

      Xabi Alonso - Alberto Aquilani
      Javier Mascherano - cannot remember
      Fernando Torres - Andy Carroll
      Luis Suarez - Mario Balotelli

      Should have been:

      Xabi Alonso - Javi Martinez
      Javier Mascherano - um?
      Fernando Torres - Aguero
      Luis Suarez - Sanchez, Firmino or Reus

      :D
      Del Boca Vista
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #11: Oct 03, 2014 02:07:38 pm
      "Selling key players and not replacing them does make you a selling club."

      I assume you mean, with key players? selling key players... and replacing them with 'key players'. well I would say Balotelli is definitely a 'key player', a first teamer. we were pretty happy to sign Balotelli and knew he was a big player, he is a big player. the price doesn't matter. you are too caught up in the price my young trolling friend.

      another crap thread from you to rag on our buys and the current regime. are you paid to do this? i know there are plenty of you out there on the big football boards.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #12: Oct 03, 2014 02:11:06 pm
      Should have been:

      Xabi Alonso - Javi Martinez
      Javier Mascherano - um?
      Fernando Torres - Aguero
      Luis Suarez - Sanchez, Firmino or Reus

      :D

      Exactly right.

      Some may argue it's difficult to keep hold of our stars but when have we managed to replace a star with a star in recent times?

      Torres for Suarez is about the only example where you think we actually upgraded. It's been a depressing slope to watch our best talent walk out of Anfield and players of nowhere near the quality walk in.

      Alonso - Aquilani
      Mascherano - Poulsen
      Suarez - Balotelli
      Torres - Suarez

      All this supposed bullshit that you should support no matter what but when you see fillet steak taken from under your nose and replaced with braising steak excuse us if we find it hard to swallow.
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #13: Oct 03, 2014 02:13:10 pm
      Should have been:

      Xabi Alonso - Javi Martinez
      Javier Mascherano - um?
      Fernando Torres - Aguero
      Luis Suarez - Sanchez, Firmino or Reus

      :D

      Totally F***ing agree. We either have these players lined up and ready to join or we do not sell until we do.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #14: Oct 03, 2014 02:28:37 pm
      I remember when we'd all sing "you're just a selling club" to Everton, Spurs, Arsenal and the like.
      Now all these clubs sing it to us. Chelsea and Man C, we wouldnt even abuse, because that was considered unecessary cruelty! And its not as if we should ever BE a selling club. There's no reason whatsoever we should kowtow to those 2 Spaniards OR Chelsea etc.

      The yanksters want Man Utd income, and Everton expenditure. Sadly the fans have let em get away with this.

      PS I cant call Nando for Luis an upgrade(even tho he became better than him in time). He was half the feee, and under half the wages. Nando was ruined by Purslow demanding the docs certify him fit when he clearly needed an op before the WCup. Remember the lies "Suarez is to play alongside Torres". Yeah right..

      Looking at what we had, and what we now have, its nothing but obscene. Its like buying the original Mona Lisa, and painting over  it with a Ronald McDonald costume. Then crowing on about "great brand monetization".

      These bas**rds have killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. Then killed a couple more. I dont think there are any geese left to kill for a year or so...
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #15: Oct 03, 2014 02:37:38 pm
      Using Balotelli as an example of a replacement for Suarez I feel is a bad example because I don't believe he was. I believe he was meant to be a replacement for Borini who pulled the plug on his transfer right after. Balotelli will offer us something different. If the Summer had been Suarez and Borini out, Higuain and Balotelli in, I doubt anyone would be moaning.
      CoutinhoRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #16: Oct 03, 2014 02:44:06 pm
      Using Balotelli as an example of a replacement for Suarez I feel is a bad example because I don't believe he was. I believe he was meant to be a replacement for Borini who pulled the plug on his transfer right after. Balotelli will offer us something different. If the Summer had been Suarez and Borini out, Higuain and Balotelli in, I doubt anyone would be moaning.

      So if Balotelli wasn't our replacement for Suarez, then who was?
      racerx34
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #17: Oct 03, 2014 02:48:17 pm
      You have made a good point. So you've accepted that top players need replacing, so we'll see who in effect we have replaced here:

      Xabi Alonso - Alberto Aquilani
      Javier Mascherano - cannot remember
      Fernando Torres - Andy Carroll
      Luis Suarez - Mario Balotelli

      Javier Mascherano - Christian Poulson. *Shudders*




      Fernando Torres - Andy Carroll & Luis Suarez

      The only time we have adequately replaced a player.
      Every other time we have spread the money across the squad.
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #18: Oct 03, 2014 02:51:47 pm
      So if Balotelli wasn't our replacement for Suarez, then who was?

      No one.

      I think almost every player we have signed recently has been with a view to how much we can sell them for in the future.

      I'm not sure if that makes us a selling club but I don't think we sign players purely for their ability to help us succeed in the here and now.
      racerx34
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #19: Oct 03, 2014 02:52:51 pm
      I'd say there has been a clear implementation to buy young and sell at the peak,
      so Yes. Yes, we are a selling club.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #20: Oct 03, 2014 03:09:30 pm
      So if Balotelli wasn't our replacement for Suarez, then who was?

      No one. We failed to replace him which is one of the reasons why we're in our current predicament. I do not believe the window went quite as expected and the manner in which the business was done showed a certain naivety. Suarez wanted a transfer, we agreed to it in principle but then released him despite the fact our chosen successor (Sanchez) did not want to join the club. What should have happened is that at point the fee was agreed the deal was put on hold until we'd been successful in signing a replacement. We're still doing right by the player, agreeing to his transfer, but we're doing right by the club by ensuring that his sale does not adversely affect us. We spent more time chasing Lallana and Lovren than we did finding a replacement for Suarez. In my opinion our priorities where skewed.
      Scally21
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #21: Oct 03, 2014 03:10:59 pm
      Abso-fu*king-lutely we are. We're working to FSG'S business model of buying young with a view to future potential and profit.

      It's true what Marca said in that we buy rough diamonds, polish them up and then allow the likes of Real and Bastardlona to come swooping in. 
      waltonl4
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #22: Oct 03, 2014 03:32:16 pm
      So if Balotelli wasn't our replacement for Suarez, then who was?

      nail on head mate the answer is we haven't got one and that is the tragedy of spending £100mil on avg players. We have learned nothing from the Spurs model.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #23: Oct 03, 2014 04:25:40 pm
      The reason why players wanted to leave is because they wanted trophies and felt that their career will stagnate at us ...
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #24: Oct 03, 2014 05:29:47 pm
      No, we're not. As far as I'm concerned, we sold our best players to only two of the biggest clubs in the world. Barca and Real are buying clubs and all the best players in the world (with a few exceptions) want to play there. Over the past decade we sold Owen, Xabi, Mascha, Suarez, Arbeloa to these two. Torres is an exception, but it's been proven that he was on the decline anyway.

      All our other big players left when either their form or their age dictated that they were no longer good enough for us.

      Hyypia to Leverkusen, Hamman to City (before they were billionnaires), Riise to Roma, Agger to Brondby, Pepe to Napoli, Finnan to Espanyol, Garcia to Athletico, Kuyt to Fenerbahce, Carra retired, McAllister retired, Gerrard will retire here.

      So if people want to elude to a phantom FSG business model of turning players world class and selling them on for profit, then pretty much every big team in Europe have the same model. Bayern have started to join the Spanish giants, but those two still dictate the markets. We don't sell to any other big clubs (rare occasions aside) because, regardless of the up and down seasons of the past 10 years, we're still regarded as one of the biggest clubs around, simple as that! The fact that we haven't qualified for Champs League regularly and we're in danger of not doing so prevents us from attracting some of this talent...but that's a different debate.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #25: Oct 03, 2014 07:44:38 pm
      Javier Mascherano - Christian Poulson. *Shudders*


      I shuddered too. Even more so when I remembered that Paul Konchesky was his team mate.

      They were the days ay......


      srslfc
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #26: Oct 03, 2014 07:46:34 pm
      I shuddered too. Even more so when I remembered that Paul Konchesky was his team mate.

      They were the days ay......




      Still can't believe he played for us
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #27: Oct 03, 2014 08:10:04 pm
      Still can't believe he played for us

      I can't believe it either. When I think that was bad I then remember who the Manager was and start remembering the depressing football.

      Oh the depressing football.

      srslfc
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #28: Oct 03, 2014 08:42:01 pm
      I can't believe it either. When I think that was bad I then remember who the Manager was and start remembering the depressing football.

      Oh the depressing football.



      It was tragic stuff mate.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #29: Oct 03, 2014 08:52:18 pm
      Lest we forget:

      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #30: Oct 03, 2014 08:55:43 pm
      Any chance we can sell, or frankly give away, these moaning F***ing whoppers of fans who come out of the woodwork when we have a poor run?


      Oh don't mate.. Don't bring that back into my life
      Brian78
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #31: Oct 03, 2014 09:14:53 pm
      Define a selling club. I don't think theres any club that doesn't sell
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #32: Oct 03, 2014 09:35:39 pm

      Christ that's riled me up! You've given me the right hump now!
      waltonl4
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #33: Oct 03, 2014 09:40:43 pm
      Suarez,Pepe and Daniel Agger will have been very big earners its hardly a surprise that people still think we are restructuring the finances of the club.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #34: Oct 03, 2014 09:49:17 pm
      Suarez,Pepe and Daniel Agger will have been very big earners its hardly a surprise that people still think we are restructuring the finances of the club.

      That is true Walton, but lets be totally honest here; Luis was gone no matter what; It's what he asked for and though Pepe and Daniel were great servants of the club at a time where they are part/time or even not playing at all players not paying them top wages is hardly a crime...It's not like Pepe is tearing up the Bundisliga, he just found the one team in Europe that was willing to pay his wages to sit on the bench.

      Does not exactly make LFC a Tesco
      s@int
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #35: Oct 03, 2014 09:55:04 pm
      Does not exactly make LFC a Tesco

      Sadly we are more like LIDL than Tesco's.... we always seem to sell cheap.

      waltonl4
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #36: Oct 03, 2014 09:55:24 pm
      That is true Walton, but lets be totally honest here; Luis was gone no matter what; It's what he asked for and though Pepe and Daniel were great servants of the club at a time where they are part/time or even not playing at all players not paying them top wages is hardly a crime...It's not like Pepe is tearing up the Bundisliga, he just found the one team in Europe that was willing to pay his wages to sit on the bench.

      Does not exactly make LFC a Tesco

      But we have had a few big eanrers leave. when keegan left and this relevant we had 12months notice he was going and brought in Kenny.
      Now how many people honestly thought Luis would stay and even if he did the odds where that if Barca or Real came he would go.
      What planning was in place for his replacement ?. Little or any if the pursuit of Remy and signing of Mario is anything to go by.
      Whatever way you want to look at it our transfer policy has been poor for a long time and it hasn't improved since FSG arrived.
      FL Red
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #37: Oct 03, 2014 10:06:53 pm
      Any chance we can sell, or frankly give away, these moaning f**king whoppers of fans who come out of the woodwork when we have a poor run?


      You could figure out a way to do that you'd be a gazillionaire mate.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #38: Oct 03, 2014 10:22:52 pm
      Javier Mascherano - Christian Poulson. *Shudders*




      Fernando Torres - Andy Carroll & Luis Suarez

      The only time we have adequately replaced a player.
      Every other time we have spread the money across the squad.
      Suarez arrived the day before Torres left didn't he?

      Didn't FSG say something about buying players with a resale value? Seems to me like they see players as a way of Avoiding spending Money.
      And before anyone says that they couldn't have stopped Suarez leaving, funny how they stopped him leaving the previous summer, and were lavished with praise for it. It just shows if Arsenal had offered enough, he would have been away.

      As people have said, all clubs are selling clubs for the right price,  but when we go for cheaper, lesser players it reflects badly on the intentions of the owners.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #39: Oct 03, 2014 10:42:31 pm
      Alonso - Pushed out the door over the depressing Gareth Barry pursuit, the club were always going to accept £30mill for him.

      Masch - Wanted to leave for Barca and his family were apparently unhappy in England so there was nothing we could have done to keep him unless we wanted an unhappy player on our hands.

      Torres - Wanted to leave so we drained every penny we could out of Chelsea. Again, what use is an unhappy player wanting to get out the club and who had just started his decline.

      Suarez - Always seemed to be his dream to play for Barca and we got a massive fee for him. He is probably the only player that would have played just as well regardless of if he was happy at the club or not.

      I don't think we are a selling club as such, all our key players that have left over the years have gone because they have wanted to for whatever reason, Xabi is the only one we have pushed out the door other than Pepe. There is no point in having unhappy players, it destroys morale within the team and it's the last thing we need so we get every penny we can and most the time they go on to regret their decision to leave us.

      Every club sells key players over the years, doesn't make them a "selling club" as such, it's just the way the transfer market works.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #40: Oct 03, 2014 11:50:40 pm
      I'll post fuller tomorrow. But in summary, the reasons for these players leaving were various.
      Nando loved the fans and our history, but realised the club had become very toxic, esp the way Purslow meddled with the advice given by the club doctors to pressure him into playing when he needed an operation. Very likely cost him the mobility he had earlier in his career.
      Nando was hacked off at our lack of ambition and repeat bullshit excuses. He even tried to pull out of the Chelsea deal but was told "f**k off". In other words, asset strip.

      They were trying to force Pepe and Dagger out for a LONG time. Wage reduction was the game. They tried to push Johnson out for quite a while and it seems they did a similar thing to some degree or other with Skrtel.

      Masch- again fed up with the toxic atmosphere and the pillaging of the club by G&H. Dedicated his Champs Lge win v the Mancs to Liverpool fans. Loved Liverpool and said on live tv "they dont do enough to keep their players".

      Alonso- also loved Liverpool. Contrary to the media spin, Barry wasn't an issue the yr he left. The yr BEFORE, Alonso wasnt up to par. Alonso was impressed with Real's ambition. And disgusted by G&h's LACK of it.

      Mereiles - was ripped off by Fenway. They refused to up his very low wages and broke a gentleman's agreement. He scored and gave them a v sign in the stands. I'd be disgusted too.

      Benayoun - sold to Chelsea. Good enough for them...

      Suarez- loved the fans and our history. Was never really supported by the owners in the barrage of media abuse.
      Again hacked off with our lack of ambition vs rivals. And the owners were rather duplicitous last Summer(I'll elaborate some other time maybe).

      In summary, the top top players were distinctly unimpressed with the board's behaviour. Furthermore, with all this soccernomics bullshit, the owners aim is buy cheap, develop, sell, rinse and repeat. So if a star was unsettled/unhappy, that is music to their ears.

      Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. How many TOP players have we signed ie top players on high level wages? Absolutely NONE. Because they simply dont want anyone on high wages if they can find any way out of it.

      So we're downsizing time and time again. THAT is the definition of a selling club. Failing to show ambition is a selling club.
      Part of their spin, whether its the rounders team or football saccer-ball, is to blame the player. But the reality is that the haemorraging of quality and replacement with cheapos is all part of the trick.

      And all a reason for our continued lack of success.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #41: Oct 04, 2014 11:04:43 am
      The answer to the question posed is 'Yes'.

      No point in denying that it's what our current 'policy' and future 'plans' are built on.

      Think about this: if we hadn't sold Suarez our net spend would have been, circa, £50m. Now, if, as has been suggested, we needed to strengthen the squad above all else which of these players [Lallana, Lovren, Markovic, Can, Balotelli, Lambert, Moreno, Origi] would we have signed with that £50m?

      We couldn't have signed them all so either, we didn't need so many or, as often suggested, we did.

      Bear with me; if we did [need so many players] then we needed to sell... and that fact, sadly, defines us as a selling club.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #42: Oct 04, 2014 02:01:46 pm
      Every club is a selling club if Barca or Real come knocking for your players and aren't willing to go away. It's a fact. Doesn't matter if you Bayern Munich or Manchester United.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #43: Oct 04, 2014 04:46:05 pm
      Every club is a selling club if Barca or Real come knocking for your players and aren't willing to go away
      Yeah Scott but not every club needs to sell - which is more the point.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #44: Oct 04, 2014 05:29:41 pm
      What's worse than being a selling club?  Being a selling club, and a feeder club for Real and Barca!
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #45: Oct 05, 2014 04:25:54 pm

      There is the complete Directors Cut version where he wipes his arse as well . ;D
      Aminegriffy
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #46: Oct 06, 2014 09:59:43 am
      First of all I just got banned of RAWK just for asking the same question like you did OP
      It's seems nowadays if you don't like what you reading just get rid of him .
      Back to subject i think we are a selling club because we don't have a sugar daddy who throws millions , personally I don't agree with our owners policy but I have to accept it as I'm supporting this club , when you have limited founds and you want to rival city and chelsea and even utd and arsenal you have to spend big and unfortunately we can't unless if we sell , for so many years we have been selling to buy and this year is no different . I do believe if we didn't sell sell Suarez we wouldn't have bought Moreno and lovren and markovic .
      Players nowadays wants consistency and win trophies achieve things and I can't see top players willing to wait for us so that's why we go for young players polish them and sell them and buy young players again .
      racerx34
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #47: Oct 06, 2014 10:24:52 am
      There is the complete Directors Cut version where he wipes his arse as well . ;D

      Hopefully before his face.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #48: Oct 06, 2014 12:30:30 pm
      I think its overwhelmingly clear that we are a selling club these days.

      I'd use various measures for this:-

      1)What are the replacements?
      Younger and often inexperienced.
      lower transfer fee
      lower wages - often massively so.
      often HUGELY lower ability either short term or long term

      2)What are the reasons for the sales?
      Well on the face of it we have a lot of pr guff.
      But the reality is clear.

      Soccernomics/Moneyball revolves around buy low- develop- and sell high.
      It claims to talk the emotions out of squads. But in truth, it takes the emotion and the passion out of the whole thing.

      Wage disputes even broken agreements by the board have been reasons for sales.
      The board refusing to show the requisite ambition have been partial reasons.
      The board have refused to bring in quality, which alienates fans.
      The board have refused to show backing to certain players and stood by/or even orchestrated character assassinations to fulfill their objectives.
      The board have attempted or even, in practice succeeded in forcing certain players out. And I mean players who love/loved the club and really wanted to stay, even if they were being treated like sh*t. And some of them have held back from telling the full truth, out of regard for the fans, knowing how much the truth could heighten our problems even more.

      You can see how Nando just looked GUTTED to have signed for Chelsea. And Masch was very open - dedicated the Barca CL win over the Mancs to the Liverpool fans. Masch also said how the Yanks never did enought to keep players or show any ambition. Agger and Reina and Mereiles made their views pretty clear too.


      Who is my authority for all this?
      Just ask our ex players, sources close to the club like TonEvans and Tony Barrett and even the current board.

      And it isnt just Barca and Real who "aren't feeder clubs". Man C and Chelsea aren't. Bayern aren't. Manc Utd only really did it with Ronaldo... when the disease that is the Glazers were at their most destructive. Even smaller clubs do what they can to keep their favourite sons. And the very WORST part is, we don't even NEED to sell!!!

      The selling club aspect is one of the most repulsive aspects of our modern"brand". To me, we are the Pierre Cardin of modern football. Once an illustrious name or marque. Now Pierre Cardin is synonymous with cheap sh*te. I mean the counterfeit Cardin is better quality than the "genuine"! Thats what we've done. Gone from top name, to "third or fourth tier brand" - from Harrods to Quicksave. Yet the ticket prices are still like Harrods prices. (Compare that to Real Madrid and Barcelona!!!)

      It might have the badge. It might have the colours. Its still got some of the old faces. Still plays at Anfield.
      But its not really Liverpool "Football Club" is it?
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #49: Oct 06, 2014 12:37:41 pm
      So we're a selling club because we sold Suarez to Barca when he begged to leave and for triple what we paid for him. And for selling Torres to the Chavs for ridiculous money when he was gone sh*te. They're the only two high profile sales I can think of under the current ownership. But if we're a selling club then aren't the Scum (Ronaldo), Arsenal (Fabregas), Athletico (Costa)... or every other club in the world aside from Barca, Real, and maybe Bayern?
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #50: Oct 06, 2014 12:47:55 pm
      The rest of its been addressed above.
      But just taking Luis alone, 75m player for a 16m player?
      If that isn't the EPITOMY of selling club, what is?

      Reina, Johnson, Skrtel(to a lesser extent), Agger, Arbeloa, Alonso, Masch, Torres, Mereiles, Suarez.
      Managers - Rafa and Kenny.
      Virtually a whole team sold, or the subject of attempts to force the player out. All pretty much world class.

      What have we had in?
      Mignolet, Konchesky, Allen, Moreno, Manquillo, Henderson, Balotelli, Lallana, Markovic, Sakho, Lovren, Poulsen, Aquilani, Sturridge, (Suarez) etc etc
      Managers - Hodgson and Rodgers.

      Some good players in the replacements. But NONE of them of the callibre of what we lost.
      Why don't we look for and SIGN top quality? Because the Americans don't want to!
      Break the fans expectation, break their spirit, slash wages, trade players for profit, and take the cash to the bank!
      One bullshitter after the other.
      Meet the new cu*ts, just like the old cu*ts!
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #51: Oct 06, 2014 12:54:07 pm


      Reina, Johnson, Skrtel(to a lesser extent), Agger, Arbeloa, Alonso, Masch, Torres, Mereiles, Suarez.
      Managers - Rafa and Kenny.
      Virtually a whole team sold, or the subject of attempts to force the player out. All pretty much world class.


      You're having a laugh mate. At the time of selling there are only three world class players in that list.
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #52: Oct 06, 2014 01:05:14 pm


      Yo Racer !


      Well yes and no.....

      He rubs his face  then rubs his arse then ........................ ....

      Watch it   ;D

      http://youtu.be/aav46Lek0Rs

      racerx34
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #53: Oct 06, 2014 01:14:40 pm

      Yo Racer !


      Well yes and no.....

      He rubs his face  then rubs his arse then ........................ ....

      Watch it   ;D

      http://youtu.be/aav46Lek0Rs



      Ah yes, a little cheeky sniff at the end.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #54: Oct 06, 2014 02:08:12 pm
      You're having a laugh mate. At the time of selling there are only three world class players in that list.

      They've been trying to force Agger out for a long time, and Reina. Both were considered wclass in previous times. Reina still is.
      Arbeloa wasn't world class, but very very good.
      Mereiles not world class, but cheating him demonstrated what a selling club we were.
      When Johnson was (our league's best rback, albeit one who leaves gaps), they were busy trying to force him out.
      Skrel was in fantastic form when they tried to sell him and one of the best defenders around.

      Masch, Alonso, Suarez, Torres were all indisputably world class. Torres had been fu**ed up with injuries but was the 50m spent on a comparable replacement? Nope, a ponytailed tw*t on1/3rd of the wages who told the press he was "gutted" at a Liverpool move.

      A key aspect is, what were the replacements? Cheap, low waged, NOT top quality in nearly all cases.
      So we are clearly a selling club. Buying clubs improve. Selling clubs deteriorate on the pitch in the pursuit of greedy £££ aims.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #55: Oct 06, 2014 02:30:49 pm
      They've been trying to force Agger out for a long time, and Reina. Both were considered wclass in previous times. Reina still is.
      Arbeloa wasn't world class, but very very good.
      Mereiles not world class, but cheating him demonstrated what a selling club we were.
      When Johnson was (our league's best rback, albeit one who leaves gaps), they were busy trying to force him out.
      Skrel was in fantastic form when they tried to sell him and one of the best defenders around.

      Masch, Alonso, Suarez, Torres were all indisputably world class. Torres had been fu**ed up with injuries but was the 50m spent on a comparable replacement? Nope, a ponytailed tw*t on1/3rd of the wages who told the press he was "gutted" at a Liverpool move.

      A key aspect is, what were the replacements? Cheap, low waged, NOT top quality in nearly all cases.
      So we are clearly a selling club. Buying clubs improve. Selling clubs deteriorate on the pitch in the pursuit of greedy £££ aims.

      But we finished 2nd in the league last season within a whisker of winning it playing the best football in England. The highest we have finished since we had Alonso, Masch, Torres, and Arbaloa. So how have we deteriorated on the pitch from selling said players?
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #56: Oct 06, 2014 03:19:38 pm
      But we finished 2nd in the league last season within a whisker of winning it playing the best football in England. The highest we have finished since we had Alonso, Masch, Torres, and Arbaloa. So how have we deteriorated on the pitch from selling said players?

      WTF sort of answer is that?

      We finished 2nd with Rafa, sold our best players and were utter w*nk for years and years.
      We sold a megastar who carried an ordinary team this Summer, and we're now UTTER w*nk AGAIN!


      And you can also  argue we only got 2nd because we didn't have any cups to play for.

      18months ago, the Yanks were sniffing round for a buyer for the ONE player who became a crown jewel.
      Arsenal made a bid and Luis himself said "its nice to know I'm still wanted by someone". What would have happened if we sold Luis last Summer? Yes, we'd be sh*t like we are this season!

      Who win trophies? Who get big fanbases? The Evertons and Villas with their selling club, no mark antics? The asset stripping scumbag clubs? Or the aristocrats like we USED TO BE? The teams that invest the fans hard earned money?

      Every year, we lose new fans. Every year, we will fall deeper into mediocrity unless someone stops this "death by a thousand cuts". Did we get our global fanbase because we sold Souness, Rush, Hansen, Lawro and Dalglish in 1982 and 1983. No, we kept these players, became and remained a great club.

      Selling clubs= also rans = mediocrity, stagnation and downward spirals.
      Top prices for also ran performance = ripping off the fans.

      But then the brand isnt run for customers like us. Its customers like Real Madrid, le Bron James and Dracula LLP's hedge fund.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #57: Oct 06, 2014 07:05:02 pm
      There are only 2 or 3 teams in the world who ultimately are not selling clubs. The best players for Real and Barca are never in threat of leaving were as the best players at any other club are always under threat from a bid by one of those two. The sad reality is that if Real and or Barca come after a player they will ultimately get them no matter who it is or who they play for
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #58: Oct 06, 2014 07:50:13 pm
      Saying we sold Suarez for £75m makes us a selling club is like saying the same of United because they sold Ronaldo for £80m. Those are stupid good transfer fees to receive.
      FL Red
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #59: Oct 07, 2014 12:07:47 am
      Reina is world class? Currently?



      Wow, I've read some whoppers on here but that takes the cake.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #60: Oct 07, 2014 10:10:29 pm
      There are only 2 or 3 teams in the world who ultimately are not selling clubs. The best players for Real and Barca are never in threat of leaving were as the best players at any other club are always under threat from a bid by one of those two. The sad reality is that if Real and or Barca come after a player they will ultimately get them no matter who it is or who they play for

      Why do young think that is though mate?  Is it because of the money, the big stadiums, or just guaranteed champions league?
      We are just as famous all over the world as those two,  we should be able to attract big players too.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #61: Oct 10, 2014 11:48:56 am
      Reina is world class? Currently?
      Maybe not FL but he's better than what followed and that's more the point.

      If you can look past any preconceived ideas about who wrote what and look instead at what's written, there are some valid points being made. We sell players because of their wages as much as (if not more) than their ability. Similarly; when we buy players, cost is the primary and guiding factor.

      Our transfer 'policy' is based on the principle that we pay little in the hope that, when we sell, [and we will sell, make no mistake] - we, at worst, lose little and at best, coin it then... start all over a - F***ing - gain.  ;D
      FL Red
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #62: Oct 10, 2014 01:42:22 pm
      Maybe not FL but he's better than what followed and that's more the point.

      If you can look past any preconceived ideas about who wrote what and look instead at what's written, there are some valid points being made. We sell players because of their wages as much as (if not more) than their ability. Similarly; when we buy players, cost is the primary and guiding factor.

      Our transfer 'policy' is based on the principle that we pay little in the hope that, when we sell, [and we will sell, make no mistake] - we, at worst, lose little and at best, coin it then... start all over a - f**king - gain.  ;D


      Reina hasn't been world class for quite some time (and I'm a huge fan of the man), but  he was on world class wages. So I can't really fault the club for removing his wages from the books IF he's not going to be an integral part of Brendan's plans (which he wasn't).

      The wage stripping in my mind is a convenient conspiracy theory to be brought out when things start to go south on the pitch. Last season there was neither hyde nor hair of all of this wage stripping talk as Sturridge and Suarez were banging in goals left and right and we were destroying teams. Now we've hit a rough patch and everyone has to find a seat on the closest band wagon. If we are truly selling players purely because their wages are too high then I would be appalled.  For two reasons I would be appalled, one because it's a bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field and two because it would mean that whoever is responsible for this idea sucks at implementing it as one of the highest wage earners (as I understand it) in Glen Johnson is still around collecting checks while being constantly injured or ineffective.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #63: Oct 10, 2014 02:17:25 pm
      Reina hasn't been world class for quite some time (and I'm a huge fan of the man), but  he was on world class wages. So I can't really fault the club for removing his wages from the books IF he's not going to be an integral part of Brendan's plans (which he wasn't).

      The wage stripping in my mind is a convenient conspiracy theory to be brought out when things start to go south on the pitch. Last season there was neither hyde nor hair of all of this wage stripping talk as Sturridge and Suarez were banging in goals left and right and we were destroying teams. Now we've hit a rough patch and everyone has to find a seat on the closest band wagon. If we are truly selling players purely because their wages are too high then I would be appalled.  For two reasons I would be appalled, one because it's a bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field and two because it would mean that whoever is responsible for this idea sucks at implementing it as one of the highest wage earners (as I understand it) in Glen Johnson is still around collecting checks while being constantly injured or ineffective.

      If you don't believe we sell or sign players because of wages, fair enough; however I still believe what Brendan said so I'll agree to disagree on that mate.

      As for collecting wages while injured or ineffectual? Yeah...I can buy that - be it one Glen Johnson or any of these 'false economies' - Allen, Assaidi, Alberto, Borini...

      "Young" and "with potential" = code for cheap and easy paid.

      On the subject of "bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field" -  well... sometimes the penny has a long way to drop but the 'proof of the pudding' is in how many signings are better than those they replace on the first XI... if they even make it that far.

      Have any of the player(s), signed to replace even Downing been any more effectual or just cheaper?  Like I say - I'll happily agree to disagree.

      One further point - as you will be well aware FL: I have held this view for a long time now: long before last season and long before the dip-sh*t, superfans appeared on the all is rosy 'wagon, last season. ;D
      « Last Edit: Oct 10, 2014 03:23:57 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #64: Oct 10, 2014 02:46:54 pm
      Reina hasn't been world class for quite some time (and I'm a huge fan of the man), but  he was on world class wages. So I can't really fault the club for removing his wages from the books IF he's not going to be an integral part of Brendan's plans (which he wasn't).

      The wage stripping in my mind is a convenient conspiracy theory to be brought out when things start to go south on the pitch. Last season there was neither hyde nor hair of all of this wage stripping talk as Sturridge and Suarez were banging in goals left and right and we were destroying teams. Now we've hit a rough patch and everyone has to find a seat on the closest band wagon. If we are truly selling players purely because their wages are too high then I would be appalled.  For two reasons I would be appalled, one because it's a bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field and two because it would mean that whoever is responsible for this idea sucks at implementing it as one of the highest wage earners (as I understand it) in Glen Johnson is still around collecting checks while being constantly injured or ineffective.

      The only certain trend we have is the part I highlighted in bold.

      Good post BTW.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #65: Oct 10, 2014 04:01:00 pm
      What exactly is a 'selling club'? Do we sell good players to other top teams? Yes we do but so do most other teams. Do we sell our top players to other Premiership clubs? That's a mixed one because we sold Torres to Chelsea but refused to sell Suarez to Arsenal. It could be argued, however, that FSG saw the writing was on the wall for Torres in terms of his performances and the dip his career was taking and had the foresight to grab what they could for him while they could. Similarly it could be argued that they saw that after another Suarez bite, that he was damaging Liverpool FC as a brand but any delay in transferring him would result in his value dropping significantly. Both would be considered good business practice. So is it a bad thing that we sold two of our players to other top teams and if not, what does it matter if we're a 'selling club' or not?
      FL Red
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #66: Oct 10, 2014 05:44:06 pm
      If you don't believe we sell or sign players because of wages, fair enough; however I still believe what Brendan said so I'll agree to disagree on that mate.

      As for collecting wages while injured or ineffectual? Yeah...I can buy that - be it one Glen Johnson or any of these 'false economies' - Allen, Assaidi, Alberto, Borini...

      "Young" and "with potential" = code for cheap and easy paid.

      On the subject of "bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field" -  well... sometimes the penny has a long way to drop but the 'proof of the pudding' is in how many signings are better than those they replace on the first XI... if they even make it that far.

      Have any of the player(s), signed to replace even Downing been any more effectual or just cheaper?  Like I say - I'll happily agree to disagree.

      One further point - as you will be well aware FL: I have held this view for a long time now: long before last season and long before the dip-sh*t, superfans appeared on the all is rosy 'wagon, last season. ;D

      I'm not discounting the idea that we at some points have looked to make a tidy profit on a player that is either deemed surplus (Reina, Agger) already or one that has expressed a strong desire to leave (Torres, Suarez).

      I'm just saying I don't think the problem is as rampant as some (not you specifically) make it out to be.

      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #67: Oct 11, 2014 08:13:33 am
      I'm not discounting the idea that we at some points have looked to make a tidy profit on a player that is either deemed surplus (Reina, Agger) already or one that has expressed a strong desire to leave (Torres, Suarez).

      I'm just saying I don't think the problem is as rampant as some (not you specifically) make it out to be.


      Reina hasn't been world class for quite some time (and I'm a huge fan of the man), but  he was on world class wages. So I can't really fault the club for removing his wages from the books IF he's not going to be an integral part of Brendan's plans (which he wasn't).

      The wage stripping in my mind is a convenient conspiracy theory to be brought out when things start to go south on the pitch. Last season there was neither hyde nor hair of all of this wage stripping talk as Sturridge and Suarez were banging in goals left and right and we were destroying teams. Now we've hit a rough patch and everyone has to find a seat on the closest band wagon. If we are truly selling players purely because their wages are too high then I would be appalled.  For two reasons I would be appalled, one because it's a bad policy that has nothing to do with the end product on the field and two because it would mean that whoever is responsible for this idea sucks at implementing it as one of the highest wage earners (as I understand it) in Glen Johnson is still around collecting checks while being constantly injured or ineffective.

      I think it's pretty obvious that lowering the wage bill was an immediate priority for FSG. Even their biggest supporters would admit that.
      If certain players aren't justifying their high wages, then fair enough, but if it means we can't attract top players because we won't pay their wages ( which seems to be the case,  as we "inquire" about certain players,  then don't sign them), then that's bad for us in the field.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #68: Oct 11, 2014 11:09:08 am
      I'm just saying I don't think the problem is as rampant as some (not you specifically) make it out to be.
      I'm not sure "rampant" is the right adjective mate [it's such an emotive word] but it certainly exists and runs to the very core of company 'policy'.

      All the evidence is there FL; from Brendan's quotes on "money men" and "financial decisions", to John W's missive to the masses - the PR exercise where he boasted about bringing in "young but significantly talented starters Allen, Sahin and Borini as well as two exciting young potential stars of the future - Yesil and Assaidi".

      The 'policy' and I use the word "policy" loosely, of replacing high wage earners with cheaper 'cuts' would be fine if the 'replacements' weren't picked, primarily, because they were easy paid but because they were, indeed better.

      In my opinion, the scatter gun approach, of buying lots of cheap but "young with potential", although appealing to the romantic notion of producing stars, is fraught with difficulties.

      Let's look at a few of the players mentioned ['good' and 'bad'] - Reina: we saved a fortune in wages on a player who, by some accounts, was "in decline" but spent £9m on young potential; how much better off are we? Agger: a big wage earner who "didn't play enough because of injury" - spent £18m on Sakho & £20m on Lovren "young", "potential" and on less wages: improvements? Heck... lets' even look at Downing: "utter sh*te" by all accounts and a high wage earner - Aspas £7m, Assaidi £3m and Borini(?) £12m; nuff said?

      The thing is - we were [are] a team on the up. We had a great spring board to not only build on but to attract players who could help us right now, not next year or the year after but right now. Brendan and the lads were excellent last season. How do you add to what they achieved? "First team improvers" maybe and players who are better right now not cheap but "young with potential", in my opinion, of course.

      Buy cheap and hope that they can be moved on for a tidy profit (or a small loss) might be good business but the Suarez's and Sterling's (when that happens) of this world aren't going to be replaced by cheap but young with potential; certainly not in the short term. Every time we do that we are taking one step forward and two back.

      I have no problems with any of the lads we have signed this summer - as individuals they're good in their own right but [in my opinion] right here and now there's only one (Adam) who is a genuine "first team improver". The rest are, at best (right now), on a par with what we already had.
       
      If certain players aren't justifying their high wages, then fair enough, but if it means we can't attract top players because we won't pay their wages ( which seems to be the case,  as we "inquire" about certain players,  then don't sign them), then that's bad for us in the field.
      Exactly O_R... and a myriad of excuses won't hide that. It's false economy mate; certainly as far as the actual football side of things go.  :-\



      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2014 11:20:13 am by bad boy bubby »
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we a selling club?
      Reply #69: Oct 11, 2014 12:24:07 pm
      As usual, the finger pointing is starting because of our poor form and the poor form of some of our new acquisitions. I do recall people (not necessarily on here) bemoaning Suarez's lack of goal returns, or the fact he missed many chances in his first season and wasn't considered an out and out goal scorer. FWIW, I haven't been impressed with Markovic as of yet, doesn't mean I've written him off as a player because we aren't paying someone else 100,000 a week instead. He clearly needs to settle.

      We are what 7 games in and because all our new signings haven't hit the ground running then the doom-mongers are only too quick to come out and start throwing their daggers about. It wouldn't be so bad had they a bedding in period but they are not even given that. Last season was the same, when things went south (and that wasn't the case often) the doom-mongers who just want to be proven right were again only too quick to throw their negative assertions around, only to be given a large dose of egg on their face, come May. No f**king patience and quick to f**king moan at the first sign of trouble.

      I think we forget, that at times last season when on occasions things did go south people also played the 'we should of spent big for the sake of it' card like now, and the simplicity of football and coaching were forgotten. While Rodgers was written off compared to managers like Martinez and the club written off to spenders like Citeh the boss got the most out of his tightly knit unit and the team played the best football we've witnessed for a long time. People, fans, whingers always get caught in the net of money and forget that a manager is able to get the best out of what he has accrued. I know people haven't got the patience for that, even when a heavy load of numbers have come into the squad - but I'm hopeful that those same doom-mongers of last season (ironic I know) will end up having egg on their face again.

      Give it 3 wins on the bounce and these fuckers will go back into hiding again, just like last season.
      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2014 12:35:29 pm by Beerbelly »

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