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      Should we bring in a defensive coach?...

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      sore monad
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      Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Oct 22, 2014 09:46:51 pm
      ...Or should we just keep buying £20m central defenders and hope that the exact same problems will eventually stop repeating themselves?

      (I have kind of loaded the question.)
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #1: Oct 22, 2014 11:35:14 pm
      I've seen someone say this on here the other day and this thread brought it back to me but what exactly is all this talk of a 'defensive coach'?

      Is there any foootball club that employs purely a defensive coach?

      Or do people mean a coach who is more defensive in his philosophy?

      If it is the second question then I don't see how that can work as I don't see how a manager with one philosophy like Brendan would be able to work with someone who sees the game entirely differently.

      Maybe people just want to see Colin Pascoe run out of the club.

      Or maybe, just maybe, it's an easy way to say they want the manager out?

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #2: Oct 22, 2014 11:43:55 pm
      Maybe not a defensive coach per say srslfc but a coach who can help/lead Rodgers in the way of making the defense stronger. I think he does need help in this department. You can see in his interviews that he has more understanding and enthusiasm talking about going forward and playing the ball etc. When its about the defense he usually says they were 'poor goals' to concede, or individual mistakes but he doesn't really elaborate on 'why' the defense isn't working or 'how' he'll improve it. Where as he'll be able to analyse, and tell you all day long why the attack isn't working.

      I think some may have nailed it, in that he may have the wrong coaching team around him (for whatever reasons) be it, Mike Marsh (who I'm not sure about) or Colin Pascoe (same) neither can seem to plug the gap in our deficiency that is our defense.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #3: Oct 22, 2014 11:45:21 pm
      I've seen someone say this on here the other day and this thread brought it back to me but what exactly is all this talk of a 'defensive coach'?

      Is there any foootball club that employs purely a defensive coach?

      Or do people mean a coach who is more defensive in his philosophy?

      If it is the second question then I don't see how that can work as I don't see how a manager with one philosophy like Brendan would be able to work with someone who sees the game entirely differently.

      Maybe people just want to see Colin Pascoe run out of the club.

      Or maybe, just maybe, it's an easy way to say they want the manager out?



      Mate,  Brendan and his backroom staff don't have a clue when it comes to defensive tactics,  they need help from someone for sure.
      sore monad
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #4: Oct 22, 2014 11:51:40 pm
      I've seen someone say this on here the other day and this thread brought it back to me but what exactly is all this talk of a 'defensive coach'?

      Is there any foootball club that employs purely a defensive coach?

      Or do people mean a coach who is more defensive in his philosophy?

      If it is the second question then I don't see how that can work as I don't see how a manager with one philosophy like Brendan would be able to work with someone who sees the game entirely differently.

      Maybe people just want to see Colin Pascoe run out of the club.

      Or maybe, just maybe, it's an easy way to say they want the manager out?

      Well its not in my case.
      I mean the former of your 2 options - somebody to coach the defence, not a more defensive manager.
      Steve clarke basically did this under kenny, and at chelsea iirc.

      I can understand brendan being a bit reluctant about bringing somebody in, in case they start trying to change the style, treading on his toes. But christ, even if they just worked on set pieces, which has no effect on our open play - getting that sorted could gain us 15 points a season, the number of goals we ship from them.
      Scally21
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #5: Oct 23, 2014 12:10:30 am
      Have we ever employed a coach specifically for defensive duties?

      I thought it was just a case of us being fortunate to have Managers & Assistant Managers who had decent defensive backgrounds.

      Houllier/Thompson
      Benitez/Pellegrino
      Dalglish/Clarke

      That said, there does seem to be a correlation of Managers with little or poor defensive backgrounds and us having a leaky defence, a la Rodgers & Hodgson :f_tongueincheek:

      But to answer the OP question - yes, we should.

      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #6: Oct 23, 2014 12:28:43 am
      Thing is though, they aren't even getting the basics right, at the end of the day if you don't know what to do with the ball then just hoof the f**ker clear.

      There was a point in the first half against Madrid tonight where Lovren chased the ball down, going towards our own corner and he could have gotten it clear down the line a bit (would have still gone for a throw but would have been cleared). However, this wasn't the easiest choice, the easiest choice would have been to play back to Migs but instead he ended up dallying on the ball, nearly getting tackled and then awkwardly putting it out for a throw. That moment really highlighted how little trust there is within the defence and Migs and for a player who cost £20mill and is supposed to be our main defender now, I expect a lot better.

      We all love the attacking football when it is going to plan, smashing in the goals for fun but your luck will run out, you can't really rely on just smashing in the goals in the mindset of "you may score 3 but we will score 4 or 5", we rode our luck doing that last season and with Suarez gone and Sturridge injured we were never going to be able to do that again this season because we didn't sign a top striker to do so. I'd happily see out a game 1-0 38 times a season if it means we get the 3 points. You need to build the team from the back, a good keeper and a reliable defence will stand you in good stead and we were building from the back with Rafa, his defence was very good and we even put together 11 consecutive clean sheets. From there you build into your attack. This season we have come unstuck, we have a dodgy defence and virtually no attack in terms of goal scorers.

      After 3 years of BR being in charge now, myself and I think everyone else would have expected to have seen us build a pretty decent defence by now, especially when you take into account the amount we have invested on defenders and a keeper. However it's not the case, if anything we are looking worse defensively then we were 3 years ago, we can't even manage a clean sheet unless we play Spurs. I remember when we used to go into games and I'd be confident that we would keep a clean sheet as well as get the win. Now when we go into games I am confident the opposition will score at least 2 and we might be lucky to scrape a win, regardless of who it is against!

      I don't know what the lads do in training but I would love to be a fly on the wall and see because it's clearly not any defending and if they are doing defending in training then surely alarm bells would be ringing that they still aren't improving, surely BR has noticed that whatever it is they are doing just isn't working and they need to change things, be it staff or training methods.

      Given that Rodgers worked with Jose I'd have thought he'd have some clue about defending given that Jose usually sets his teams up quite well defensively to see out a game or to hold a team at bay and then take advantage of any attacks that arise (i.e. our defeat to them at the end of the season).

      Is it a case of pride? he doesn't want to basically admit he has gotten things wrong and hoping it will improve, can the club in some strange world not afford a decent defensive coach or is it a case that they genuinely believe that the set up they have at the moment is working?

      Whatever is going on though needs changing because we have become an utter embarrassment defensively, some of the goals we concede are goals you'd be ashamed to be letting in playing Sunday league.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #7: Oct 23, 2014 12:34:15 am
      Yes, without a shadow of doubt.

      Been harping on about this for so long now I've bored myself with it.

      Brendan had the team purring last season but we all knew that despite how good we looked in attack we couldn't defend if our lives depended on it. What other team has ever finished the league with the top 2 scorers and not won the whole thing, I'd bet nobody, I'd bet it's not even close.

      You can't even say that the problem existed prior to Brendan coming here, under Kenny we were pretty damn solid defensively and that was with players Brendan has since deemed not good enough. So it's clear to me his judgement in this area of the pitch is wrong and you're either too proud or too stupid if you don't ask for help at this stage. We wont score 100 goals this season but we could concede less than we did last year not enough is being done to make that a reality.

      I'll say this, if Brendan doesn't solve our defensive problems this season then his job could well be lost because of it, failure to make the CL qualifying spots and I don't honestly think the yanks would have the patience many of the fans would.
      heimdall
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #8: Oct 23, 2014 12:36:38 am
      It doesn't matter whether we or any other club has ever had a specialised coach for the defence, we desperately need one so get one in. Create a brand new role if necessary, if it works we certainly won't be the only club to have one.
      JD
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #9: Oct 23, 2014 12:44:44 am
      It's a no brainer for me.  If the owners have faith in the manager then they are going to have to replace either Pascoe or Marsh.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #10: Oct 23, 2014 12:46:06 am
      Quote
      Given that Rodgers worked with Jose I'd have thought he'd have some clue about defending given that Jose usually sets his teams up quite well defensively to see out a game or to hold a team at bay and then take advantage of any attacks that arise (i.e. our defeat to them at the end of the season).

      Good point.

      On the flip side though at the beginning of last season we started our approaches to games a lot differently and won a handful of 1-0 games. And we seemed to base these on sitting deeper and playing a more defensive game only to really counter on the attack. At that time, I remember Rodgers getting lambasted for that too.
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #11: Oct 23, 2014 12:46:28 am
      Rodgers first season we had a decent defense record because we actually had a center back who was a leader in Jamie Carragher, Enrique on his best form and Pepe Reina who knew how to command his area.

      Then it went downhill from there when Reina left to Napoli and Carragher retired.

      I think 80% is down to individual players that we have, especially players like Skrtel, Johnson & Mignolet. We need a better defenders and I think we will be fine with that.

      If Agger stayed and we played Agger-Lovren partnership and gave Reina a chance, I think we would have been a better defensive unit.

      Scally21
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #12: Oct 23, 2014 12:47:42 am
      Whilst we're at it, can we change the goalkeeping coach too?
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #13: Oct 23, 2014 12:47:55 am
      It's a no brainer for me.  If the owners have faith in the manager then they are going to have to replace either Pascoe or Marsh.

      What if he refused though mate?

      If the owners have faith in Brendan and his vision and philosophy then surely they are comfortable with who he puts in place in his backroom team to see that through.

      I think if you accept Brendan as the boss then you take the whole package.
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #14: Oct 23, 2014 12:53:52 am
      Whilst we're at it, can we change the goalkeeping coach too?

      isn't our GK coach one of the best there is in Europe? That's what I heard

      I think Mignolet is just not good enough I'm afraid
      JD
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #15: Oct 23, 2014 12:55:10 am
      What if he refused though mate?

      If he refused then that would be his prerogative - he would deserve some slack based on last season but he would also then have to inform the owners what he was going to do about it and how long it would take.

      Ultimately the club is bigger than any individual.

      isn't our GK coach one of the best there is in Europe? That's what I heard

      I think Mignolet is just not good enough I'm afraid

      Fair point, as with the defence it could just be that we've bought very badly.  Although some of these mistakes look really fundamental - not attacking the ball - running after players instead of looking at the ball etc.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #16: Oct 23, 2014 12:55:15 am
      I can't really comprehend why they need coaching on the basics of defending I play for a Sunday League side as a full back and I can guarantee you our CB's would get into current LFC team ahead of the current incumbents.
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #17: Oct 23, 2014 12:58:59 am
      Ultimately the club is bigger than any individual.

      Agree.

      I just think that if FSG thought they had to intervene and make changes to the managers back room team then that indicates a lack of faith in the man in charge to a certain extent.

      As I said above maybe when people talk about making changes to the coaching staff they are, without even realising it, questioning the manager himself.
      Scally21
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #18: Oct 23, 2014 01:05:34 am
      What if he refused though mate?

      If thw owners have faith in Brendan and his vision and philosophy then surely they are comfortable with who he puts in place in his backroom team to see that through.

      I think if you accept Brendan as the boss then you take the whole package.

      TBH, Brendan should have the humility to see and address the problem himself. He's had two and a half years, brought in his own players and still there's been no change. So it's obvious it's down to his/their tactics and coaching. He needs to work out if he's "fighting for his life for the club" or if he's fighting for his life for his mates. But in any case, there are instances of personnel changes being called for and made from above. It would depend on whether his ego could take it.
      ruthcity
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #19: Oct 23, 2014 01:06:52 am
      Nothing is expected to change since I have come to realise that football management is about pride, ego and politics. Though I'm hoping for a change for the better.
      Scally21
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #20: Oct 23, 2014 01:22:30 am
      isn't our GK coach one of the best there is in Europe? That's what I heard

      I think Mignolet is just not good enough I'm afraid

      I didn't know or even heard of that before mate.

      Pepe seemed to thrive under Xavi Valero and thought it was no coincidence that he went downhill pretty quick with Mike Kelly and Tranmere John coming in!
      FL Red
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #21: Oct 23, 2014 02:38:40 am
      Don't know how English football works but American football (NFL), they have a coach for not only offense and defense but also specific positions. Easier to compartmentalize tactics and hold accountable the folks that should be.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #22: Oct 23, 2014 02:44:30 am
      Maybe, just maybe, people will start giving Lucas, pre-injury, the credit he deserved.  His work covering cavalier fall backs and gaps in the middle was always undervalued amd it's a shame he can't do that job full time for us any more, due to some awful injuries.

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