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      Should we bring in a defensive coach?...

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      HScRed1
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #69: Oct 23, 2014 09:42:09 pm
      Steve Clarke nonsense ain't happening complete opposite to Brendan in their football philosophy from a organised pragmatic view to a fluid dynamic one.

      Brendan has his philosophy and there is no way he is going to compromise on that which means he is going to have to come up with a template for a tight defence without compromising our attack based football.

      wmeliane
      • Forum John Barnes
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #70: Oct 23, 2014 09:44:28 pm
      Yes yes yes
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #71: Oct 23, 2014 10:03:43 pm
      A change of personnel; promotion from within maybe? He's done it before mate. :-\


      That could be a solution mate.

      As I said though I don't see FSG ' forcing' a change upon the manager so we will only sew this defensive coach if Brendan feels he needs it.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #72: Oct 23, 2014 10:11:54 pm
      At the same point as we realise that no matter how often we first blame, then replace players who were previously deemed "good enough", nothing has improved?

      They were deemed "good enough " weren't they and I'm not imagining it?... I mean; the 'old guard' (as records show) used to be good and the new kids are good (why else would we have signed them?); right?

      Then again: maybe we've just been very unlucky of late - first the 'old guard' stop accepting responsibility [even if the facts tell a different tale] and now, those bought to replace them, take the same path.  :o

      Either way - something needs to be done.

      I don't disagree something needs to be done, I just disagree we need a 'defensive coach'. Would you accept that Chelsea are currently the best team at defending in the league today? I don't mean on goal difference, I mean in terms of the quality of their defending? They conceded the least goals last season by some considerable way. Yet if you look at their coaching staff you'll see they don't have a defensive coach. If we look at Southampton's coaching staff, they don't have a defensive coach either and they've currently conceded the least goals so far this season.

      What I'm saying is that we might need a 'defensive coach', assuming one even exists, if our problems in defence where of a technical nature but they're not, they're basic errors time and again. Benzema's header, for example. Weak punch by Mignolet, Johnson doesn't get close enough to his man (I forget who it was), Lovren watches as the ball flys to Benzema's head and goes in to the back of the net. You don't need a defensive coach to tell you to punch the ball harder, to get tight to your man and stop him jumping for a ball, to actually react to a situation and attempt to intercept a high ball.

      I'm not suggesting that there isn't a training problem because clearly there is, but the more recent mistakes, particularly in dealing with high balls comes down to the players themselves and whatever malaise has set in, only they can shake it off. That's what I mean about taking personal responsibility.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #73: Oct 23, 2014 10:26:25 pm
      I have noticed recently that with set pieces we don't even attack the ball anymore. We seem more intent on stopping the opposition players getting a header in, no great surprise we fail miserably in this tactic.
      Surely this can't be something they are being told to do?
      Scottbot
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #74: Oct 23, 2014 10:37:27 pm
      Steve Clarke nonsense ain't happening complete opposite to Brendan in their football philosophy from a organised pragmatic view to a fluid dynamic one.

      Brendan has his philosophy and there is no way he is going to compromise on that which means he is going to have to come up with a template for a tight defence without compromising our attack based football.



      Agree completely, and am surprised to see so many posters routinely throw Clarkes name into the mix as if it would work. Obviously we would all love Carra to come in and work with the defenders but it's not really possible with his job at Sky, makes it untenable, particularly when he would be working with ex teammates such as Skrtel (who he has criticised many times already this season).

      I just don't think Brendan quite knows what to do with them, he will talk all day about tempo, about vision, intelligence on the ball, quality of attacking play, our passing etc but when it comes to defending  you only really ever hear him wax lyrical about how well we have pressed the ball and denied space. It doesn't seem to be in his make-up to actually call our defenders out, to be specific about particular aspects ie. attacking the high ball, 2nd phase, preventing crosses etc.

      So I agree a defensive specialist would be a good idea BUT it needs to be somebody who shares Rodgers belief in playing a high line, in pressing the ball and being aggressive. As you say Clarke is quite the opposite. He is very much a Mourinho disciple ie. play on the break, sit deeper, always protect the back four, keep your shape when attacking incase you lose the ball etc. It wouldn't work.
      Gongfarmer
      • Forum Phil Babb
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #75: Oct 23, 2014 10:48:26 pm
      I'm sorry, but you cant blame the players for a run of 18 games with 1 clean sheet. Something is fundamentally wrong with how we are setting ourselves up.

      funk me is that stat true? I knew we had problems but had no idea it was 18 games!

      Not sure what to add to that.
      kelvo
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #76: Oct 23, 2014 11:03:39 pm
      Without a doubt!

      Ok, take aside the fact we were against some top players last night but some of our defending the last 18 months or so as been like a pub teams! Apart from Glen who I think has been pretty poor for the last two years now, my fear is its not the players but the system.

      The other worry is Brendan's seemingly failure to recognise it or to want to change it?

      And it's not just the back 5, the midfield set up is having a huge impact on the situation too.
      racerx34
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #77: Oct 23, 2014 11:16:43 pm
      sh*t, lads.
      He's on to us!

      Brendan Rodgers: Liverpool FC don't need a defensive coach

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/brendan-rodgers-liverpool-fc-dont-7990098
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #78: Oct 23, 2014 11:29:05 pm

       ;D

      As I thought anyway mate.

      Not a chance Brendan will compromise on his philosophy.
      federer
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #79: Oct 23, 2014 11:31:16 pm
      Not a chance Brendan will compromise on his philosophy.

      what philosophy is that?
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #80: Oct 23, 2014 11:32:47 pm

      I'm pretty sure you know what he's about by now Fed.

      Stop being a tit.
      FL Red
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #81: Oct 23, 2014 11:35:43 pm
      Don't be so obtuse, free flowing, attacking football.

      Certainly not defensive.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #82: Oct 24, 2014 12:02:44 am

      Doesn't come across well in that mate, a lot of excuses being flung about in there along with rather blatant contradictions.

      ;D

      As I thought anyway mate.

      Not a chance Brendan will compromise on his philosophy.

      Nobody expects him to just willingly accept it, it probably would undermine him but could be done in many ways taht wouldn't. It is becoming damn clear he hasn't got the answer though, no matter how much he wants blame all other circumstances other than his coaching.

      We're sh*t at defending Brendan.
      We're sh*t at defending set-pieces Brendan.
      We've been sh*t for your entire time here Brendan.
      The best defender our club has produced proclaimed us as "the worst team in the league at defending set-pieces" (Carra)
      You've had 2 1/2 years, don't blame "not enough coaching time" when you're talking about players that have been here since the moment you walked in the door! (Skrtel / Johnson)

      He even tries to take credit in there "over the past 18 months we've seen the development of the team because of coaching." It's not rocket science though, oh no, it's more coaching time required. This is the first time Brendan has come under fire, where it's not all smiles and frankly his approach of deflection wont wash, at least he accepts "we need to be better." You're damn right we do and it starts with Hull. Without doubt they are going to fire balls into our box left, right and centre so let's hope the limited coaching time was used wisely because sorting the defence could well define his tenure here.
      srslfc
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #83: Oct 24, 2014 12:08:33 am
      Nobody expects him to just willingly accept it, it probably would undermine him but could be done in many ways taht wouldn't. It is becoming damn clear he hasn't got the answer though, no matter how much he wants blame all other circumstances other than his coaching.

      I'm not sure I'd want him to have to accept it Luke, willingly or otherwise, and I don't think I can recall a single expaple of a club forcing or hiring a coach to work under a manager when the boss doesn't want it. And if it has happened then I'm sure it hasn't ended well.

      I'd much rather leave Brendan to try and get it sorted and if FSG feel he cannot sorted then maybe a bigger decision would have to be made. I just don't see them bringing someone in to 'help' the guy they feel had the vison to take us forward as a football club.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #84: Oct 24, 2014 12:23:10 am
      I'm actually shocked and embarrassed he's blaming a lack of coaching time. Does he think we're all stupid or something? It's not effecting any other club in a European competition. We had plenty of coaching time last year and we leaked like an old shoe. He's not done himself any favours in that interview.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #85: Oct 24, 2014 12:44:45 am
      I'm actually shocked and embarrassed he's blaming a lack of coaching time. Does he think we're all stupid or something? It's not effecting any other club in a European competition. We had plenty of coaching time last year and we leaked like an old shoe. He's not done himself any favours in that interview.

      Spot on.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #86: Oct 24, 2014 01:19:31 am
      The issue I have is - since when was the last time we actually bought a decent defender? Arbeloa in 2007?

      I realise there is a problem there that needs to be coached on, and that is Brendan and the coaching staff's responsibility, but since the year 2007, we really have bought poorly in the defensive department. Any deficiencies from the players who were bought after seem to have been covered up by playing under real stalwarts like Hypia and Carragher.

      But after Arbeloa, everything seems to be dire. Houllier got some real gems for us in defence, and Benitez utilised them to perfection. But those lads of Hamann (I count defensive midfielder as a solution to defence), Riise, Finnan, Carragher and Hypia to name just a few really did raise the bar. Benitez was hit and miss with defenders (buying Agger in 06 and Arbeloa in 07 were masterstrokes) but he used his organisation skills and got the best out of the Houllier signings.

      Towards the end of Rafa's tenure, these players began to age or left the club, and our cause hasn't been helped since.

      Rodgers when he came didn't really have a decent hand to play with in regards to defenders and our best one Agger declined due to injury sadly. Now Rodgers recruitment in this area hasn't been beneficial it seems - but I still have hopes for Sakho (who is still young for a centre back) and Lovren to come good, and hopefully with development from Manquillo and Flanagan.

      He never had a good base to build upon the defenders, and unfortunately, he doesn't have any players with great experience who are genuinely great like Carragher and Hypia at the moment to help allow bed in younger defenders like Manquillo. But I admit him and the clubs recruitment policy in this area needs to be improved upon desperately.

      I mean, the impressive performances of Flanagan suggests its the players have to take responsibility and have the tools to play well, and I could see the point of blaming the management only if all defenders were crap, but Flanagan shows the type of defender we want. Which warrants the question - why not dip into the youth system more?

      There seems to be desperate communication and confidence issues with the players that you wouldn't see with homegrown youth players. Youth players would take the opportunity by the scruff of the neck, and they're psychologically primed to play for the club from an early age anyway - if they have the potential, throw them in there. Which is why its important we invest in the youth squad, but sadly our attention towards the youth academy has been disgraceful in the last 10 odd years.
      federer
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #87: Oct 24, 2014 03:38:44 am
      I'm pretty sure you know what he's about by now Fed.  Stop being a tit.

      Not really, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. 

      Don't be so obtuse, free flowing, attacking football.   Certainly not defensive.

      That is what you think is meant by "his philosophy"?

      See, I told you it wasn't so clear. 

      First of all, his "philosophy" has changed since he first came.  First it was Swansalona pass-and-move and kill them with 90% possession.  Then last season we switched to being a more swashbuckling counter attacking side a la Dortmund. 

      At any rate, there is a difference between "defending" and being a "defensive" side.  I mean look at Madrid against us.  They played us off the park with their free flowing attacking football.  And yet they also DEFENDED.  It doesn't mean they're a "defensive" team, it just means that in the ebb and flow of a game, you will sometimes attack, and sometimes defend. 

      I just took a look at Bayern's last 4 league matches, they won 6-0, 4-0, 2-0, and 4-0 respectively.  And we have all seen them play.  Clearly they are an attacking, free flowing side.  But clearly they also defend.

      So this false dichotomy that if you have an "attacking, free flowing" philosophy means you can't also defend is patently absurd.  Clearly sides can do both.

      But.... we don't.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #88: Oct 24, 2014 04:53:50 am
      Would you accept that Chelsea are currently the best team at defending in the league today? I don't mean on goal difference, I mean in terms of the quality of their defending? They conceded the least goals last season by some considerable way. Yet if you look at their coaching staff you'll see they don't have a defensive coach. If we look at Southampton's coaching staff, they don't have a defensive coach either and they've currently conceded the least goals so far this season.
      Strangely enough 5t I too looked at both teams when looking into this.

      I couldn't find anyone with the title 'defensive coach' amongst the many coaches listed but I'm not familiar enough with each of the many coaches to say none of them specialise in defence - are you?
      What I'm saying is that we might need a 'defensive coach', assuming one even exists, if our problems in defence where of a technical nature but they're not, they're basic errors time and again.
      So basically, we've just had a run of bad luck with not only the players Brendan inherited going off the boil but the players he's bought all hitting a bad patch too. 'Cause that's what your saying - basic errors.

      You acknowledge: that 'something needs to be done', ;that we might need a 'defensive coach' and that there is 'clearly a training problem'. That'll do for me.
        :gt-happyup: :nod:

      In the interest of harmony I'll happily say that of course players need to take responsibility for individual performances.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #89: Oct 24, 2014 06:09:35 am
      Not a chance Brendan will compromise on his philosophy.

      I don't know Si - I seem to remember we initially played sterile, tippy-tappy, possession based, football. Something which changed drastically, along with our results, the same season. Maybe that was a "change"; I don't know but...

      That's the thing - "philosophy" is such a vague word; without a definitive description it could mean anything to anyone mate. What does it mean to you: what exactly is Brendan's philosophy Si?

      Are there separate philosophies for football and the profile of players we buy in, for example?

      Couldn't it just be that Brendan has compromised, before and often but we just haven't realised it because no one actually knows what the "philosophy" is?

      Nah Si... Brendan will compromise (or adapt) to 'survive' - he always has, in my opinion. The alternative is to sail along in the hope everything will sort itself out and I just don't believe he's that daft. 8)
      « Last Edit: Oct 24, 2014 07:25:01 am by bad boy bubby »
      David Wright
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      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #90: Oct 24, 2014 06:48:52 am
      All successful sides in the past have always been built, on having a solid defence, whether bringing in a defensive coach is the answer, I am not so sure tbh, but something needs to be sorted very quickly, or else the side will end up further in the doldrums.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Should we bring in a defensive coach?...
      Reply #91: Oct 24, 2014 06:52:45 am
      ;D
      Yeah I read that racer.

      To summarise - we don't need a defensive coach or new coaching methods; just more time on the training pitch [cause the pesky Champions League eats into that time]... Sounds fair enough, I'd say.

      So Brendan... last season?  :confused-smiley-013:

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