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      A trip down Agony Lane.

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      LFC Karl
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      • YNWA
      A trip down Agony Lane.
      Oct 24, 2014 10:42:44 pm
      When/Where did it all start going wrong?

      18 League titles <1992 PL Inception. 5 Titles in the decade preceding the PL inception. A trophy room littered with silverware. The top team in Europe. Money starts to flood the game. A slow decline starts - surely we should have been positioned perfectly to continue our reign. What in everyone's opinion started this chain of events or non-events?

      Two factors for me;
      Kenny quits 1991. We all know the reasons behind this. Sad day!
      Anfield planned for expansion ~2000 but no money? or what was the reason?
      Old toilet expanded 1990-2000 to 80,000 seats - their rise on a global scale has to be attributed to this?

      This could be beneficial for us younger folks who weren't reading the papers at the time where the writing was on the wall.

      Why wasn't the money there? Other issues? Mismanaged? Poor transfers? Sell assets?
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #1: Oct 24, 2014 10:56:23 pm
      graeme souness
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #2: Oct 24, 2014 11:01:35 pm
      When/Where did it all start going wrong?

      I can not really comment on the 90s as I was a kid, but for me, we had the opportunity to build something special and challenge the league and CL for years to come, but those cowboys screwed us over and Rafa never had the opportunity to buy the players he wanted.

      So for me, It went wrong during the era where the cowboys took over.
      LFC Karl
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #3: Oct 24, 2014 11:06:16 pm
      I can not really comment on the 90s as I was a kid, but for me, we had the opportunity to build something special and challenge the league and CL for years to come, but those cowboys screwed us over and Rafa never had the opportunity to buy the players he wanted.

      So for me, It went wrong during the era where the cowboys took over.

      Without doubt they bastardised our club from 2007 on. But we were slipping long before that.
      LFC Karl
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #4: Oct 24, 2014 11:09:48 pm

      According to Wiki we went from a 60% win rate under Kenny to a 40% under Souness... Lost 46 games, more than Kenny (42), in 150 less games played.

      Ye he is definitely a candidate.
      Any big players leave when he came in or before? Or was it his tactics?
      5timesacharm
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #5: Oct 24, 2014 11:15:23 pm
      I've always felt we failed to adapt to the changing nature of the league from community based clubs to global franchises, failing to capitalise on our global fan base and years of success. As a result we fell away financially which had an impact on our ability to compete on the field. Then throw in an ageing squad, a manager who fails to buy the right players and years of financial mismanagement and it's a miracle we're not playing in the Championship. We're years behind United and Arsenal, light years behind City and Chelsea. But as we proved last year, you don't need megabucks to compete, you just need a little quality and a little luck and you can still compete.
      HScRed1
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #6: Oct 24, 2014 11:16:30 pm
      According to Wiki we went from a 60% win rate under Kenny to a 40% under Souness... Lost 46 games, more than Kenny (42), in 150 less games played.

      Ye he is definitely a candidate.
      Any big players leave when he came in or before? Or was it his tactics?

      It's not that simple  the old boys can explain better than me but two names that resonate with our decline Julian Dicks and Razor Ruddock..............oh dear

      lfc across the water
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #7: Oct 24, 2014 11:21:52 pm
      Souness arrived in 91 and took a Kalashnikov to the squad. When those who survived the cull spent the early part of the season in the treatment room, there wasn't much quality left. Things got progressively worse as his reign went on and we got left behind. In 4 years, we went from top of the tree to losing at home to Bristol City over three games. We've been trying to catch up ever since.
      LFC Karl
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #8: Oct 24, 2014 11:26:42 pm
      Souness arrived in 91 and took a Kalashnikov to the squad. When those who survived the cull spent the early part of the season in the treatment room, there wasn't much quality left. Things got progressively worse as his reign went on and we got left behind. In 4 years, we went from top of the tree to losing at home to Bristol City over three games. We've been trying to catch up ever since.

      Nasty!

      As much as 4 years can destroy a vulnerbable team, we should of had shed loads of cash - enough to build the stadium and then recover from a dodgy period. Like its astonishing that a team of our Global fan base has a 43,000 seater stadium. Clearly stadiums arent everything, otherwise Newcastle would also be Elite.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #9: Oct 25, 2014 12:00:42 am
      Pagekarl, I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentences - its got everything to do with the owners.

      Don't remember Souness in charge but experiencing the owners long after Souness had left, I'm inclined to think the rot always starts from the top. With or without Souness, if we had competent businessmen in charge of the club who exploited the full marketing potential, we might have been able to rival Man Utd in the transfer window in the 90s and win numerous league titles after Souness left.

      In an era of globalisation and all that, Moores and co failed to capitalise on the marketing potential of the club - for example, think the online club shop was only open 9-5pm British time, so fans in the Far East for example couldn't even access it during their peak hours. That's just one example of such incompetence. Don't want to know all the rest - icing on the cake was selling to Hicks and Gillett.

      So in effect, we had out of touch owners followed by the nadir of Hicks and Gillett. Cautiously optimistic about FSG as they are businessmen who have made money out of great sports marketing - and thats essentially where the revenue comes from for football clubs these days. They've already gained many business deals with companies through advertising and all that - they're competent at the very least and that will bode well for the future.

      But I always believe the rot starts from the top - I think the club was ahead of the game in the 70s and 80s business wise, and it helped us sustain success, but since the turn of the 90s, we've always been well behind the game. I think FSG are the ones to bring us into the modern game after so long, which could well be a catalyst for success down the years.
      Billy1
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #10: Oct 25, 2014 12:43:35 am
      In my eyes it all started going wrong when Moores   became the leading shareholder in Liverpool Football Club. He subsequently sold out to Hicks and Gillette with the consequence that there was no representation on the board from Liverpool supporters who owned shares in the club. Those supporters had to relinquish their shares to those thieving bas**rds. I refuse to put any blame on Kenny Dalglish for the decline of this club, what he went through with Hillsborough no man should ever have to go through, if it was not for Kenny I hate to think what would of happened to F.C.
                   Pre Moores we had a board of directors and a club secretary who as well as being major shareholders were true Liverpool supporters as well.No problem with those people backing our managers publically and financially.I had better stop now before I get a bollocking  for reminiscing in the good old days.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #11: Oct 25, 2014 12:48:20 am
      You're not going to get an argument over the owners down the years. But the original question was where the decline began. The answer is summer '91 when Souness started "rebuilding". Within 6 months, we were losing at Peterborough and struggling to get the better of Bristol Rovers not long afterwards. Portsmouth were a lower league team, they still took us to penalties in the Cup semi replay.

      Out went Grob, Ablett, Staunton, Houghton, Beardsley and the medals they took with them. In came the likes of Marsh, Piechnik, and Istvan Kozma. Chesterfield came to Anfield and got a 4-4 draw. Bolton threw our Cup defence in the bin. Rosenthal featured on every Christmas video after hitting the bar at Villa. A bright start in 93/94 ended abruptly in September. Swindon were one of the worst sides in PL history, conceded 100 goals in their short stay, but still got a point at our place. And as for Bristol City...

      Lots of things have gone wrong here since then. But they all stem from Souness time in charge here. We still haven't fully caught up, and won't until the league famine ends.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #12: Oct 25, 2014 01:30:17 am
      You're not going to get an argument over the owners down the years. But the original question was where the decline began. The answer is summer '91 when Souness started "rebuilding". Within 6 months, we were losing at Peterborough and struggling to get the better of Bristol Rovers not long afterwards. Portsmouth were a lower league team, they still took us to penalties in the Cup semi replay.

      Out went Grob, Ablett, Staunton, Houghton, Beardsley and the medals they took with them. In came the likes of Marsh, Piechnik, and Istvan Kozma. Chesterfield came to Anfield and got a 4-4 draw. Bolton threw our Cup defence in the bin. Rosenthal featured on every Christmas video after hitting the bar at Villa. A bright start in 93/94 ended abruptly in September. Swindon were one of the worst sides in PL history, conceded 100 goals in their short stay, but still got a point at our place. And as for Bristol City...

      Lots of things have gone wrong here since then. But they all stem from Souness time in charge here. We still haven't fully caught up, and won't until the league famine ends.

      How did we get player recruitment so wrong?

      I think the thing that summed it all up was the story Neil Ruddock told of how players passed a single coin around the field and the one left with it at the end of the match would pay for rounds of drink that night? I'd like to know who was involved, sadly I don't think our youth players were innocent. Too depressing.
      TonioLerouge
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #13: Oct 25, 2014 03:06:32 am
      Sorry to remind you these sad memories, but imo there's something far deeper than sportive choices or financial questions, that probably made many international players, sponsors, medias, and even the FA and its referees prefer to chose/favor other clubs. Being associated with the feast of football turning into tragedies in people minds. It took some years to start to impact the results, but the turning point was 1985 (and as undeserved it was it only got worse after 1989, thanks the s*n and all that crap). When big sponsor and new kind of owners money started to flood the league in the nineties LFC had the worst possible image to attract them, no mystery why they decided to rather bet on rivals. Out of its supporters, everyone in football (and more in politics and medias) wanted LFC to be forgotten with the excesses of the previous decade, how many players were turned off or negatively affected by that ambiance  ? There were some pure football matters too of course, like everything Souness, and (far later) the ownership problems, but imo they weren't the root of the decline. It was probably unavoidable considering that context.
      bigears
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #14: Oct 26, 2014 05:48:39 pm
      Every Empire falls and no amount of money will save it . We reached the pinnacle of our success but we haven't been exactly in the doldrums either . Since our last league title we've won a decent amount of silverware considering that financially we were light years behind the mancs and Arsenal . So for me it was at boardroom level that we failed in winning the PL title . They failed to capitalise on our success and the Stadium issue was the biggest  F**k up .
      MIRO
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #15: Oct 26, 2014 05:53:40 pm
      The tipping point on the field was Souness.
      No doubt on that at all.

      The decay off the field was the complete lack of business acumen of Moores and Briefcase Parry .
      They got left behind as they continued to think local and not global.
      waltonl4
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #16: Oct 26, 2014 06:02:21 pm
      you cant blame Souness for Sky coming in and massively increasing the amount of cash available. Money has been our major downfall Chelsea and City were never big league teams Arsenal were and Utd became Champions.
      David Moores was unfortunately born into a wealthy family and had no idea and couple that to Parry and you have the makings of a disaster.
      but for me the biggest two disaster areas are our Youth policy and general transfers it seems the Kop have far more idea about a player than those charged with signing them.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #17: Oct 26, 2014 07:24:52 pm
      How did we get player recruitment so wrong?

      I think the thing that summed it all up was the story Neil Ruddock told of how players passed a single coin around the field and the one left with it at the end of the match would pay for rounds of drink that night? I'd like to know who was involved, sadly I don't think our youth players were innocent. Too depressing.

      spice boys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_Boys_(footballers)

      http://i3.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3254767.ece/alternates/s615/white-suits-1996-fa-cup-final-460-92175278.jpg

      http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Suits.jpg


      and Redknapp said it was his good looks that caused deep resentment, even amongst a small minority of Liverpool's own fans. He said: "Don't get me wrong, the Liverpool fans are the best in the world, but there are always one or two who get on your back. They usually wait for it to go quiet then they shout some horrible abuse at you. When you look at them they are usually the ugliest people in the whole of the ground. I'm sensible enough to know that I'm not everyone's cup of tea but I sometimes think the way I look is my biggest problem. I reckon people find it easier to have a dig at a player with long hair because they think you are a bit of a tart. As for the Spice Boys tag - like hell we are the Spice Boys. Let's face it, the Spice Girls are at the top of their profession and we are still trying to get to the top of ours, so I hardly think it is a good nickname.
      redindian
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #18: Oct 26, 2014 07:46:06 pm

      They got left behind as they continued to think local and not global.

      Sid Lowe makes this point in his book "Fear and loathing in LA liga".

      We took 21 years to win our 5th. Madrid took 32 years to win their 7th. In '81, we were the bigger team and Madrid feared us. After that game, we went on to win one more cup. In spite of all that Madrid was a big draw in '98, bigger than Liverpool. That was due to their mean marketing machine that never stopped selling their brand.

      Liverpool never tried to market the brand that is Liverpool. Ironically, we were one of the first teams to sport a logo on our jersey. The term "branding " may not go well with a few people, but, that is the harsh reality of life. We failed to sell ourselves.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #19: Oct 26, 2014 07:49:39 pm
      always wondered why a rich russian or an arab chose to invest in chelsea and city and not us, instead we got that filthy scums hicks and gillett and now fenway, which are better, but still not like the oil rich arabs from city, who are also thinking to the future of man city, look in what training facilities they will be moving in , fantastic infrastructure
      David Wright
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #20: Oct 26, 2014 08:01:27 pm
      Hicks & Gillett, to my mind nearly took the club "Over the cliff" turned out to be a trip down memory lane on top of Woy's appointment, what could be more agonising than having the Owl in charge of the team.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #21: Oct 26, 2014 08:03:35 pm
      Numerous errors were made. Some were easily remediable. Others harder.

      1)Selling Souness.
      2)Complacent and overcautious attitude to stadium dvlt in the 80s and on.
      Likewise on catering for and developing our new regional, national and intl fan base in the 80s, 90s and on.
      3)Reluctance to challenge the witch-hunt on Euro ban.
      4)Reluctance to challenge the bullshit "gentrification"(all seater bollocks) that certain forces used Hillsborough as an excuse to implement.
      5)Failure to do a proper rebuild when Kenny resigned. Too much also ran signings. This happened until the Rafa era.
      6)A terrible abuse of the golden era players of the McManaman, Owen, Fowler, Redknapp etc era.
      Causing them to leave/have careers ravaged by injuries.
      Some of those could still have been playing even today - just like the Mancs had a "shadow squad" of their snrs.
      7) Moores refusal to do a rights issue/bring in co-investors/more fan ownership
      for a new/better ground and better players.
      8)Pissing round with ridiculous managers like both Roys/Woys.
      9)Moores selling to the 2 shitstains.
      10)RBS letting the next sh*t stains take over.
      11)Spirit of the fans being broken, meaning they now positively accept 5th even 7th place and actually THANK the slippery Yanksters.

      PS the sad part I think is that we (somewhat!) managed to remedy the lesser problems of the 80s, 90s and 00s when we got to Euro Cup finals in 05 and 07. But the sale of Xabi and no replacement (remember Rafa wanted Jovetic but the owners refused to honour their agreement with Rafa to back him) was the 1st big blow of the current era. And the Luis sale was the most recent nail in the clubs current coffin. Imagine if we'd kept all those stars from the Rafa era PLUS Luis! Inevitably this an the failure to invest were MASSIVE blows.
      « Last Edit: Oct 26, 2014 08:47:35 pm by AmericanPlant »
      waltonl4
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      Re: A trip down Agony Lane.
      Reply #22: Oct 26, 2014 09:03:39 pm
      We are locked into a process that will ultimately give FSG a huge return on their investment and effectively take a lot of money out of the club. I have never been given a good enough reason as to why FSG bought us other than to make money. Now they are ghosts and whilst that is what we wanted to an extent the club needs to be a have owners that the fans can at least have a bit of empathy with. I have no empathy with John Henry or Tom Werner

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