Are our players nasty enough?

Apologies for if this seems like a dud debating point, if a debating point at all, but do our players have enough grit and determination to become successful?

If you look at us two seasons ago, we were rewarded with a Europa League spot by means of being the fairest team in Europe. In other words, our players committed the least amount of points in terms of commiting fouls, yellow and red cards (correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I have interpreted it).

At the same time, and especially last season, we had a player who was regarded as one of the best players in the world. He was also regarded as a nasty piece of work who defenders quite clearly, hated to play against. That's Luis Suarez. From watching him, he'd kick defenders, leave his foot in, and basically do anything to make his presence felt. As a defender, would you fancy your chances against him? I know I wouldn't. I could always kick him, but would I get one back twice as hard? That would be my worry. Even if I didn't kick him, would this player still end up kicking chunks out of me? Personally I wouldn't want to hold the responsibility of marking a player like him for 90 minutes. His football skills aside, is that something we are truly lacking throughout the team?

It's like the Arsenal of old vs the Arsenal of new. You'd fancy yourself against their current set of players when lining up in the tunnel. They are soft, lightweight and can be got at. No doubt they are incredibly talented footballers (that is for all to see), but they can be roughed up. Now try to rough up the likes of Adams, Keown, or even Vieira. Either they'd give you a kick back, or one of their team mates would.

A few weeks ago we got schooled by Real Madrid at Anfield. It wasn't the scoreline that upset me, but the lack of grit we showed throughout that game. We didn't do what British teams are or were once upon a time renowned for - getting in their faces and playing dirty. Instead we let the smallest man on the field, Isco, bully the likes of Henderson and Lallana. The only grit we did show were from our smallest two players - Coutinho and Sterling.

No wonder teams look so confident when they are up against us. Time to man up a little?

Apologies for if this seems like a dud debating point, if a debating point at all, but do our players have enough grit and determination to become successful?

If you look at us two seasons ago, we were rewarded with a Europa League spot by means of being the fairest team in Europe. In other words, our players committed the least amount of points in terms of commiting fouls, yellow and red cards (correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I have interpreted it).

At the same time, and especially last season, we had a player who was regarded as one of the best players in the world. He was also regarded as a nasty piece of work who defenders quite clearly, hated to play against. That's Luis Suarez. From watching him, he'd kick defenders, leave his foot in, and basically do anything to make his presence felt. As a defender, would you fancy your chances against him? I know I wouldn't. I could always kick him, but would I get one back twice as hard? That would be my worry. Even if I didn't kick him, would this player still end up kicking chunks out of me? Personally I wouldn't want to hold the responsibility of marking a player like him for 90 minutes. His football skills aside, is that something we are truly lacking throughout the team?

It's like the Arsenal of old vs the Arsenal of new. You'd fancy yourself against their current set of players when lining up in the tunnel. They are soft, lightweight and can be got at. No doubt they are incredibly talented footballers (that is for all to see), but they can be roughed up. Now try to rough up the likes of Adams, Keown, or even Vieira. Either they'd give you a kick back, or one of their team mates would.

A few weeks ago we got schooled by Real Madrid at Anfield. It wasn't the scoreline that upset me, but the lack of grit we showed throughout that game. We didn't do what British teams are or were once upon a time renowned for - getting in their faces and playing dirty. Instead we let the smallest man on the field, Isco, bully the likes of Henderson and Lallana. The only grit we did show were from our smallest two players - Coutinho and Sterling.

No wonder teams look so confident when they are up against us. Time to man up a little?

I would rather we started out playing teams by playing decent football rather than going down the Stoke route.

I don't think we've got ANY "nasty" players.

And almost no one with a winners mentality.
Gerrard had it, but is a has been now.
Sterling shows something has rubbed off from Luis, altho he's nowhere near the finished article.

Compare Reina and Mignolet. Or Masch vs any of our midfielders.

Almost NO long term experience. And hardly any winners. We compete as also rans. As a self confessed "feeder club", matches are like a permanent shop window for some players these days.

Its a team that flatters to deceive. I think Coutinho is illustrative of that. Skill yes, consistency no, all consuming hunger and desire to win - nope.

I would rather we started out playing teams by playing decent football rather than going down the Stoke route.

You do not have to go down the Stoke route. It's about creating that fine balance between being a gritty player yet a talented one.

Nigel De Jong is a great example of that.

You do not have to go down the Stoke route. It's about creating that fine balance between being a gritty player yet a talented one.

Nigel De Jong is a great example of that.

De Jong is a yard dog you would get sick of him pretty quickly with his constant fouling.

Our side lacks "balls" when we do come up against a physical side we can be bowled over.

I don't know if it's being "nasty" as it is being unafraid to make a tackle, which our midfield has been atrocious at doing this season. (Compare tackling figures of Gerrard/Henderson/Allen/Can/Lucas vs those of Schneiderlin and Wanyama, for example.) I'd much rather see us win the ball via pressing than flying in with tackles all over the place. We had someone like Shelvey doing that and it was more a detriment than a benefit, as it is for Swansea.

That said, there are times when you need a HUGE tackle and Flanagan's tackle on Soldado is a good example. Hard but clean.

It's unsporting play, but part of me wished someone would've gone in hard (but clean) on Ronaldo at Anfield. Maybe that would have caused him to think twice the next time he played us.

Our side lacks "balls" when we do come up against a physical side we can be bowled over.

My concern is when we come up against a side that is both more physical and skilful than ours. Real Madrid and Chelsea spring to mind. We have to fight if we cannot play, and if we cannot fight or play, then what chance do we stand?

Yes it is balls. Any player has the ability to play a little dirty, but it's also a thing you learn by playing with gritty team mates day in and day out.

Get Tommy 'the Anfield iron' Smith down to Melwood to give the boys a few tips on being as hard as F***ing nails and rolling over the opposition, taking no prisoners and being a F***ing animal in general.
Just make sure he tells the soche and they don't collar him again for giving it one of them.

My concern is when we come up against a side that is both more physical and skilful than ours. Real Madrid and Chelsea spring to mind. We have to fight if we cannot play, and if we cannot fight or play, then what chance do we stand?

Yes it is balls. Any player has the ability to play a little dirty, but it's also a thing you learn by playing with gritty team mates day in and day out.

they need to "man up" especially at the moment

Oldham game.

Proof enough.



Costa : The one that got away. That was Luis' replacement.

As if we don't get unfairly penalised by Referees and the FA enough, we now need to get nasty?  We'd end up with 8 or 9 men on the pitch with a couple of retrospective bans wait in the wings.  That would really help us.

As if we don't get unfairly penalised by Referees and the FA enough, we now need to get nasty?  We'd end up with 8 or 9 men on the pitch with a couple of retrospective bans wait in the wings.  That would really help us.

Maybe I used the wrong words in the title, but the point I have made is that we do need to toughen up a bit. Show a little more grit and determination, fight for every ball as if our life depended on it and put a little more oomph behind our challenges. I'm not advocating challenges that would warrant retrospective bans or straight red cards, but I am advocating a little more heart and desire in both aerial and ground duels. Let your opponent know that he's going to go home tonight with a few bruises.

Maybe I used the wrong words in the title, but the point I have made is that we do need to toughen up a bit. Show a little more grit and determination, fight for every ball as if our life depended on it and put a little more oomph behind our challenges. I'm not advocating challenges that would warrant retrospective bans or straight red cards, but I am advocating a little more heart and desire in both aerial and ground duels. Let your opponent know that he's going to go home tonight with a few bruises.

I get what you're saying mate but we can't even pass to each other at the moment, so maybe that needs working on first.

It's what I say to my family every week, we need a c**t in the team. Someone who will won't hold back, especially in midfield. The amount of times you see our players back out of challenges or panic around opposite players is scary.

I get what you're saying mate but we can't even pass to each other at the moment, so maybe that needs working on first.

I think he has a point here though.   nasty is a bit too extreme and implies a negative mentality on the players. 

I personally would use the word desire.  luis had that and at times you can see his desire blanket the rest of the team and urge them forward.  most obvious was the game a couple years ago when we were in Europa and ultimately lost out to zenith.  we had clawed back a couple goals.. the lfc team in the last few minutes shifted to neutral while luis wanted them to keep going at full pace to get another goal.  he was devastated from that.   

desire also plays in fast decisions during play.  the 50/50 tackles, the extra run down the lane, the look for the quick pass and play, it filters to everything that is going bad right now.  bad decisions, bad passes, bad everything. 

I made a point in another thread that I will say again.  I cannot think of one important statistic (eg shots on goal / per game... critical passes etc) that we are better this year vs last.  I seriously cannot think of one.... we have regressed in all aspects of our game.  but we have really only lost a couple key players.. yes these two are important but imo the issue is in the head.  and this goes back the to 'nasty' comment.  nasty, toughen up,.... desire to win at all cost?

We lack character... and that as a lifelong LFC fan, is what makes watching us currently so hard to stomach

Not a dud post - an absolutely CRUCIAL post.

This is exactly what we have been lacking under Brendan - apart from when Suarez was here we lack game intelligence, balls, gamesmanship and cynicism. A big part of that is the culture of the club recently, part is Brendan, part is due to teh new players and a big part is due to the captain.

Instead of moaning about Mourinho's teams for example we should be learning from them.

We can play good football and win the league if we are canny but we will have to play stellar football to win it and play like a bunch of naive schoolgirls at the same time.

I think he has a point here though.   nasty is a bit too extreme and implies a negative mentality on the players. 

I personally would use the word desire.  luis had that and at times you can see his desire blanket the rest of the team and urge them forward.  most obvious was the game a couple years ago when we were in Europa and ultimately lost out to zenith.  we had clawed back a couple goals.. the lfc team in the last few minutes shifted to neutral while luis wanted them to keep going at full pace to get another goal.  he was devastated from that.   

desire also plays in fast decisions during play.  the 50/50 tackles, the extra run down the lane, the look for the quick pass and play, it filters to everything that is going bad right now.  bad decisions, bad passes, bad everything. 

I made a point in another thread that I will say again.  I cannot think of one important statistic (eg shots on goal / per game... critical passes etc) that we are better this year vs last.  I seriously cannot think of one.... we have regressed in all aspects of our game.  but we have really only lost a couple key players.. yes these two are important but imo the issue is in the head.  and this goes back the to 'nasty' comment.  nasty, toughen up,.... desire to win at all cost?

We lack character... and that as a lifelong LFC fan, is what makes watching us currently so hard to stomach

I'm not disagreeing mate, I'm saying that there are other things we need to sort out first.  As you've said, get the rhythm back, the confidence back, the goals back, the passing back, the pressing back, the winning back then the passion and desire will be there.

I'm not disagreeing mate, I'm saying that there are other things we need to sort out first.  As you've said, get the rhythm back, the confidence back, the goals back, the passing back, the pressing back, the winning back then the passion and desire will be there.

I agree with all this, but I have no idea how BR can plan for (for example) Henderson not only being jaded after a hectic summer, but also carrying little knocks and niggles.
Henderson last season was very nearly as crucial to us as Suarez and at the moment he looks a shadow of that player.
He was the catalyst for our pressing game who others looked to, for when to press.
We're missing last seasons Henderson badly.

I think the thread points out, we have not got a so called "hard man" in the side like a Tommy Smith or a Ron Yeats, who where the corner stone of the sides in the sixties. Unfortunately the  physical side of the game is rightly or wrongly, clamped down on by refs up and down the country.

I agree with all this, but I have no idea how BR can plan for (for example) Henderson not only being jaded after a hectic summer, but also carrying little knocks and niggles.
Henderson last season was very nearly as crucial to us as Suarez and at the moment he looks a shadow of that player.
He was the catalyst for our pressing game who others looked to, for when to press.
We're missing last seasons Henderson badly.

We're missing nearly all of last seasons players Swab.  They're still in the team but a shadow of how they were.

I agree with all this, but I have no idea how BR can plan for (for example) Henderson not only being jaded after a hectic summer, but also carrying little knocks and niggles.
Henderson last season was very nearly as crucial to us as Suarez and at the moment he looks a shadow of that player.
He was the catalyst for our pressing game who others looked to, for when to press.
We're missing last seasons Henderson badly.

Looks like all the sides with players involved at the world cup have been having difficulties - apart from Chelsea.

Looks like all the sides with players involved at the world cup have been having difficulties - apart from Chelsea.

Mourinho doesn't train his players very hard. Allegedly.
It came as a shock to Inter players when Rafa wanted them to actually do some work.


No idea how true this is, but it seems plausible.