Are our players nasty enough?

I think the thread points out, we have not got a so called "hard man" in the side like a Tommy Smith or a Ron Yeats, who where the corner stone of the sides in the sixties. Unfortunately the  physical side of the game is rightly or wrongly, clamped down on by refs up and down the country.

Correct David.. The game has changed so much.. players go down like a sack of spuds at the first opportunity and it's only the sharp eyed ref's that clock it and they're a rarity...
Now and again you get a decent ref that allows a bit of passion and commitment and the game flows and is played in good spirit.. Ive seen loads over the years with maybe one booking and a cracking game of footy..
There's commitment and there's nasty.. big difference..
Gone are the days of having a Souness , Case or Smith in our side as they'd spend more time suspended than on the pitch..
Skill and goals come from being a balanced footballer..
You don't have to work out in the gym and look more like a rugby player to win football matches..
Messi,Lady Boy,Suarez,Neymar,Augero,Costa... all have balance and an eye for goal..not a big frame/build ..
Henderson was the only player who got a red card the whole of last season in a red shirt and even that was a bit harsh..
Meanwhile Gerrard,Suarez,Sturridge and Sterling between them ,scored 79 goals..
Look how close we came...

this has been our problem for many years although there are bigger issues right now. once the football is rolling it doesn't matter how aggressive we are because we will be winning anyway. some 'steel in the midfield' has been an obvious need for ages, but I mean we just have to see our mids play with each other and start playing some good football first.

Quite simply, no.

Brendan seems to have a certain type of player he favours, he's big on work-rate and technical ability but physical attributes seem to much lower on his list of priorities. Along with that an aggressive streak (as we're almost petrified of tackling) is something I think he frowns upon.

In many ways I believe Brendan sees tackling as a last resort, much like what Alonso said but when you don't tackle you can project weakness and vulnerability which I believe we do. Can does appear to be an exception to that and I'm hoping he can develop into a Yaya Toure type but the lad is only 20 years old, asking him or any of our new recruits to step in and seize the moment when things get physical is a weight of expectation they wouldn't normally have to shoulder.

Nasty doesn't mean we're out to hurt people in my book, it means if you're coming looking for a fight then we aren't backing down an inch, push us and we'll push back twice as hard. I don't think we have many of those characters around and we could use a couple right about now.

Quite simply, no.

Simple as that Luke.

And to be honest we've been like this for a long time now give or take the odd player here and there.

Wouldn't mind having one guy that would be willing to go nose to nose with anyone.

We had a shot at someone like that a couple summers back....Clint Dempsey. I really feel we missed out on a player that would have fit what we needed very well. Hard worker, tough as nails, NEVER backs down from a good fight but is smart enough to stay out of trouble.

I think Can can do a job for us but he is young and seems prone to a petulant action here and there. Still like what he brings though.

Wouldn't mind having one guy that would be willing to go nose to nose with anyone.

We had a shot at someone like that a couple summers back....Clint Dempsey. I really feel we missed out on a player that would have fit what we needed very well. Hard worker, tough as nails, NEVER backs down from a good fight but is smart enough to stay out of trouble.

I think Can can do a job for us but he is young and seems prone to a petulant action here and there. Still like what he brings though.

Don't get me started on Clint FL.

Believe it or not I'm still pissed we didn't sign him.

Don't get me started on Clint FL.

Believe it or not I'm still pissed we didn't sign him.

Yep...everytime I watch him play for the national team (and even in MLS) I can't believe we didn't just pay the extra bit to get him. His game has actually improved since we were looking at him. He seems to get better with age.

Yep...everytime I watch him play for the national team (and even in MLS) I can't believe we didn't just pay the extra bit to get him. His game has actually improved since we were looking at him. He seems to get better with age.

He's just what Brendan needed back then.

Strong, physical, good technique, experienced, play numerous postions, gets goals etc etc.

I'm not sure nasty is the correct term but it's easy to see that we lack physically in nearly every area of the pitch. I look at our midfield and no one stands out as a typical "enforcer" type. The best players we have that can do the job imo are Lucas & Can however Lucas is out of favour and while Can will grow into the role over time he's not there yet.

In defence we have Skrtel who will have a go but only after being riled up.

Looking at our players now compared to players we had a few years ago the difference in mindset it easy to see.


Alonso
Dirk Kuyt
Carra
Reina
Mascherano
Hypia

Every single one of those players were more than able to hold their own in any physical battle and quite frankly how we didn't win the league with those players still makes my head hurt.

I look at our current players and I see a lot of very talented players but no one that will take a game by the scruff of the neck and fight to win. To be fair to our players most are still young but I have serious doubts about the attitude of some. This is why "soccernomics" can't work as you can't have a numerical value to show somebodys desire.

Look at Dirk Kuyt he wasn't the most gifted player to grace Anfield but whenever he put on our shirt you almost felt sorry for the player marking him because you knew he'd run anyone into the ground.

I can see some of the players we have now evolving into fighters, with class, not just scrappers. Wouldn't it be such a Liverpool story if guys like Allen and Borini became mainstays of the XI and put a shift in every 90 minutes that makes even the angriest of supporters proud?

What better way to learn how to be a fighter then coming through the team fighting? With a bunch of other young fighters too? Honestly, would you rather bring in an "enforcer" for 20mil and put it all on him to be the "steel" in the midfield.. or would you rather a bunch of kids rise through the ranks as Reds and learn how to fight for the shirt by playing in it, through thick and thin?

 Does anyone posting on here have the patience any more to watch a young team rise to the top? I think the runners up position of last season made a lot of us even less patient..

Apologies for if this seems like a dud debating point, if a debating point at all, but do our players have enough grit and determination to become successful?

If you look at us two seasons ago, we were rewarded with a Europa League spot by means of being the fairest team in Europe. In other words, our players committed the least amount of points in terms of commiting fouls, yellow and red cards (correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I have interpreted it).

At the same time, and especially last season, we had a player who was regarded as one of the best players in the world. He was also regarded as a nasty piece of work who defenders quite clearly, hated to play against. That's Luis Suarez. From watching him, he'd kick defenders, leave his foot in, and basically do anything to make his presence felt. As a defender, would you fancy your chances against him? I know I wouldn't. I could always kick him, but would I get one back twice as hard? That would be my worry. Even if I didn't kick him, would this player still end up kicking chunks out of me? Personally I wouldn't want to hold the responsibility of marking a player like him for 90 minutes. His football skills aside, is that something we are truly lacking throughout the team?

It's like the Arsenal of old vs the Arsenal of new. You'd fancy yourself against their current set of players when lining up in the tunnel. They are soft, lightweight and can be got at. No doubt they are incredibly talented footballers (that is for all to see), but they can be roughed up. Now try to rough up the likes of Adams, Keown, or even Vieira. Either they'd give you a kick back, or one of their team mates would.

A few weeks ago we got schooled by Real Madrid at Anfield. It wasn't the scoreline that upset me, but the lack of grit we showed throughout that game. We didn't do what British teams are or were once upon a time renowned for - getting in their faces and playing dirty. Instead we let the smallest man on the field, Isco, bully the likes of Henderson and Lallana. The only grit we did show were from our smallest two players - Coutinho and Sterling.

No wonder teams look so confident when they are up against us. Time to man up a little?

Yes!. Sack Rodgers, bring in Tony Pulis.

Does anyone posting on here have the patience any more to watch a young team rise to the top? I think the runners up position of last season made a lot of us even less patient..

Sorry for cutting your post but I think this is a very good question.

I'm all for bringing youth through a team but I think we've gone about it the wrong way. Youth players performances can vary greatly from game to game. For example look at Raheem and Coutinho, both on their day can be fantastic footballers that will put many older players to shame but you don't win the league in a single game and consistency is key. Consistency is what turns good players into great players and unfortunatly for us it's generally something that a player develops as he reaches his peak. I've no doubt that we have players capable of becoming consistent solid performers in the future but at this moment in time we have no one that is 100% reliable. Simply put I think the average age of the squad is too low.

As for being less patient I think it's more a case of desperation and anxiety I know that for me I'm desperate for us to stay competetive (top 4 at least) but i'm worried that because we are lacking consistent performers we could finish absolutely anywhere.

Not sure nasty is the right word, mental toughness however is something I think we've seen lacking in a lot of our players or only seen sporadically in some for a long, long time.

Hamman Wasn't dirty neither was Sami or even Jamie but they were respected by the opposition and they would never ever back out unlike Lovren did a week or so ago.
they just need to man up and support each other.

Our defense is pretty nasty.
More ruthless bas**rds would be welcome.

Think if he had some guys scoring goals, we wouldn't need to go gangsta.

I can see some of the players we have now evolving into fighters, with class, not just scrappers. Wouldn't it be such a Liverpool story if guys like Allen and Borini became mainstays of the XI and put a shift in every 90 minutes that makes even the angriest of supporters proud?

What better way to learn how to be a fighter then coming through the team fighting? With a bunch of other young fighters too? Honestly, would you rather bring in an "enforcer" for 20mil and put it all on him to be the "steel" in the midfield.. or would you rather a bunch of kids rise through the ranks as Reds and learn how to fight for the shirt by playing in it, through thick and thin?

 Does anyone posting on here have the patience any more to watch a young team rise to the top? I think the runners up position of last season made a lot of us even less patient..

It's just not going to happen. Let's face it in terms of having that fighting, battling spirit either you're born with it, you were moulded by circumstances or in rare cases you're coached into that kind of spirit.

*We don't fill any of those 3 criterion. Players like Souness, Bremner, Keane, Vieira and maybe even Dempsey (seeing as someone already mentioned him) are born  battlers it's in their nature for the most part I doubt they could even help it and they wouldn't be able to change even if they wanted to. You look around our dressing room and there aren't many natural born fighters. There's probably only Sakho and he's most likely in Brendan's bad books following the derby against Everton.

* We have a bunch of academy trained and cultured players on our team. Raheem most likely wasn't fighting on the streets of London growing up like Luis was in Montevideo. Players like Luis, Masch, Tevez,  Costa had no choice but to get scrappy if they wanted to succeed they're street footballers they had to get used to kicking and getting kicked in order to survive. Joe Allen isn't going to justwake up one morning and decide that he's just going to start leaving his foot in whenever he challenges for the ball. As a matter of fact Joe Allen isn't going to just wake up one morning and decide to start challenging for the ball.

* And finally our team isn't going to just grow into a bunch of fighters because it's not being coached into them. Teams generally take after the personality of their manager/coach just look at Atletico Madrid. They scrape and battle and claw for every ball, every goal and every decision because that's how Simeone was as a player and how he is as a human being. Brendan isn't like that and he isn't going to cultivate a fighting culture in the team because then he wouldn't have the level of control he wants. In the past 2 years leaders like Kuyt, Pepe, Danny and Carra, people with the necessary mental toughness, have all either left the club or been pushed out of the club by Brendan and he's replaced them all with guys who are willing to learn or be "educated" as he likes to say. People can say but Balotelli's a big character but in all honesty he isn't he's just another Anelka when the going gets tough he sulks. Balotelli isn't going to barge into Brendan's office and tell him his tactics are sh*te or demand more from him like Keane did with that whisky loving son of a bi*ch.And if he did Brendan would ship him out ASAP. That's just how Brendan likes it he wants to create this headmaster/student relationship with the players.And that's all well and good when everything's going your way but if you're in the trenches would you rather have a Simeone type of person fighting beside you or commanding you or would you want a guy who fancies himself a teacher or philosopher?

The only way we're going to develop that steel within the club is if we actively start signing players with that sort of personality or Brendan has a drastic change in his personality or we get someone in like Diego Simeone. But otherwise our players aren't just going to magically grow into fighters, no matter how much time you give them. In a few years we could have the most technically proficient team in the league that's possible but will we become a team of fighters with the way we conduct transfers and with Brendan in charge? No chance.

I think every defence/midfield should have a Souness Tommy Smith type player as an enforcer if and when required. It might surprise some to know that our beloved Bob Paisley was no pushover when he played for us. Another player I loved to watch was the late Roy Saunders (Dean Saunders Dad),he would get flattened by someone and he would get up with a big grin on his face and get stuck into the opposition. I will finish by saying every team should have an enforcer.

Mourinho doesn't train his players very hard. Allegedly.
It came as a shock to Inter players when Rafa wanted them to actually do some work.


No idea how true this is, but it seems plausible.

Interesting! Have to say Mourinhos sides rarely look short of fitness -wonder what he is doing differently?

Interesting! Have to say Mourinhos sides rarely look short of fitness -wonder what he is doing differently?

We look a bit short of fitness in comparison because Rodgers fitness regime is all about coming strong in the second half of the season. So I would expect to see us kick on after Christmas as other teams look tired cf to us.
I would imagine this is not the way Maureen sets his teams up.

What do you mean by nasty? Getting stuck in, giving fouls away, upsetting the other team? Where we nasty enough last season?

Look at Pep Guardiola's Barca team. One of the best sides ever. It was a team full of midgets with no physical presence at all.

Working hard, pressing, ball possession and playing with plenty of energy and pace will wear the opposition out. We don't have to kick lumps out of everybody we play.

From January onwards our team would have beaten any side in the league comfortably. Bad tactics and losing our heads cost us at the final hurdle. Not because we weren't 'nasty'.

I don't think we need an enforcer or our players to start kicking lumps out of the opposition. I do think we need players of character, that will stand up and be counted when things aren't going our way. I think we have a few too many players that play well when things are going our way and confidence is high, but who go into their shells when the team is struggling rather than fighting to change things.

Over the last few years we have lost a lot of big characters and while we have brought in some excellent players we seem to have lost a little of the fight against adversity type players and have too many players who seem to just accept it an inevitable when we struggle.

BigMick said in another thread that we have too many players who need the team to play well before they can (or words to that effect), I think he was right.

I remember Emlyn Hughes saying that Tommy Smith was the best Captain he ever played with because no matter how bad Tommy was playing he would still encourage and drive the team on, while Emlyn admitted that sometimes if he himself was playing badly that he would become very quiet and withdrawn.       

What do you mean by nasty? Getting stuck in, giving fouls away, upsetting the other team? Where we nasty enough last season?

Look at Pep Guardiola's Barca team. One of the best sides ever. It was a team full of midgets with no physical presence at all.

Working hard, pressing, ball possession and playing with plenty of energy and pace will wear the opposition out. We don't have to kick lumps out of everybody we play.

From January onwards our team would have beaten any side in the league comfortably. Bad tactics and losing our heads cost us at the final hurdle. Not because we weren't 'nasty'.

Mourinho was right about Barcelona - they were a team of cheats. So were Madrid but Barca were much more sneaky about it, plus they always tried to maintain a moral high ground because of their passing play. Nasty in this context refers to gamesmanship.

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2012/04/06/will-barcelona-be-remembered-as-champions-or-cheats/

http://sabotagetimes.com/reportage/real-madrid’s-jose-mourinho-is-right-barcelona-are-diving-cheats/