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      May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.

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      JustMingle
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #23: Nov 19, 2014 01:36:04 pm
      You clearly didn't read what I said. Are United's first eleven this year stronger than their first eleven last year? Yes. They still have the same defensive issues but have a far stronger attacking midfield and forward line. Are Chelsea's first eleven stronger than last year's? Is Arsenal's? All these teams have issues but they still went out and built upon what they had last year.

      To paraphrase Churchill, our Summer can be summed up thus: Never has so much been spent on so little by so few.

       :lmao:
      Roddenberry
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #24: Nov 19, 2014 01:39:19 pm
      I still believe the majority of our signings will come good, got doubts over a couple ehough. Last season the biggest 'moan' on here was about squad depth,  now people are moaning we didn't add quality.  With FFP and the fact we're run within our means, it's no wonder a few of our signings skewed on the young side, to slightly subvert the FFP regulations.  I'll stand by what I said when the window ended, I'm happy with the positions we filled and the number of players signed though I'm not 100% on the players we purchased.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #25: Nov 19, 2014 01:50:36 pm
      I still believe the majority of our signings will come good, got doubts over a couple ehough. Last season the biggest 'moan' on here was about squad depth,  now people are moaning we didn't add quality.  With FFP and the fact we're run within our means, it's no wonder a few of our signings skewed on the young side, to slightly subvert the FFP regulations.  I'll stand by what I said when the window ended, I'm happy with the positions we filled and the number of players signed though I'm not 100% on the players we purchased.

      You see, this right here is the problem. This phrase, this attitude, this philosophy. "Will come good". BR came in three years ago and started building. Whether we where ahead of schedule or not, we finished second after a fantastic run in the league. That's not the point where you buy players that will come good, that was three years ago at the start of the rebuilding process, where you bought players that now, three years down the line are coming good. No, last Summer was the point where you buy players that are immediately good. If not after finishing second, at what point do we say "O.K., we have enough potential for years to come, now we need to focus on the here and now"? We didn't do that and we've paid the price for it and whether the players come good or not is a moot point, that price has still been paid.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #26: Nov 19, 2014 01:55:52 pm
      You clearly didn't read what I said. Are United's first eleven this year stronger than their first eleven last year? Yes. They still have the same defensive issues but have a far stronger attacking midfield and forward line. Are Chelsea's first eleven stronger than last year's? Is Arsenal's? All these teams have issues but they still went out and built upon what they had last year.

      To paraphrase Churchill, our Summer can be summed up thus: Never has so much been spent on so little by so few.

      No, I read what you wrote quite carefully - i just didn't agree with it; there is a vast difference.

      Let's have a closer look at the example you have given - Man United. You say that they "built on what they had last year" and the first eleven is "stronger".

      First of all, let's concede that playing european football is a major strain on a football club - as we saw the year after Shanks won the title for us and we were out of the race by the following November. Van Gaal therefore has a massive advantage this season compared to Moyes. Add to that the fixture list which, at the start of the season, led to Moyes insuinuating that there had been some sort of fix because it was "difficult to believe". In the first five games they faced Man City, Chelsea and us away. In comaprison, Van Gaal has had the easiest start to the top flight that i can personally remember - United didn't face a top half team until October.

      Now add to that a net spend of 28 million (Moyes) Vs 150 million (Van Gaal) and, with those advantages, let's see how much "stronger" Van Gaal's team has been. After ten games:                                   


                                                Moyes               Van Gaal

      Points                                   17                        13

      Wins                                      5                          3

      Goals scored                          17                         16

      Shots on target                      48%                     43%

      Pass completion                     84%                       86%

      Tackles completed                   82%                      73%

      Goals conceded                       13                          14

      Red cards                                 0                           2


      So remind me of your Churchill quote again?                         

      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #27: Nov 19, 2014 01:57:15 pm
      I actually agree with all of your points apart from one - Balotelli. He hasn't been as lazy and disinterested as people make out, he has put in decent shifts whenever he has played. However, he has been played as a lone striker, which we all recognise is his least effective deployment. From the shifts he's been putting in, and some of the skills I've seen, I'd suggest we haven't seen the best of him. I'd lvoe to see him play with Danny up front, it could be brilliant (nowhere near Suarz/Danny partnership - but then again that was something special). I think Balo has been getting a lot of unfair stick.

      Manquillo I think is average and to this day, I have no idea why we sold Kelly. Manquillo is not better than Kelly and we should have been developing Kelly more.

      Aside from that, it's all spot on imo.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #28: Nov 19, 2014 01:57:57 pm
      You see, this right here is the problem. This phrase, this attitude, this philosophy. "Will come good". BR came in three years ago and started building. Whether we where ahead of schedule or not, we finished second after a fantastic run in the league. That's not the point where you buy players that will come good, that was three years ago at the start of the rebuilding process, where you bought players that now, three years down the line are coming good. No, last Summer was the point where you buy players that are immediately good. If not after finishing second, at what point do we say "O.K., we have enough potential for years to come, now we need to focus on the here and now"? We didn't do that and we've paid the price for it and whether the players come good or not is a moot point, that price has still been paid.

      But that is only part of the issue, and it could have happened, and has happened, with more established players as well, not all players hit the ground running when they join a new club and as I note later in that post, the age of some of our signings was influenced by FFP.
      insideanfield
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #29: Nov 19, 2014 01:58:27 pm

      We haven't done either is what bothers me
      5timesacharm
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #30: Nov 19, 2014 02:08:05 pm
      But that is only part of the issue, and it could have happened, and has happened, with more established players as well, not all players hit the ground running when they join a new club and as I note later in that post, the age of some of our signings was influenced by FFP.

      The FFP issue is only valid if we'd sold some of the other players that do not figure in our plans for the future. Those sales would have offset the costs of bringing in the younger players. But we didn't and when those players return from loan our wage bill will jump considerably. On top of that we over paid significantly for three players, all of which contributes towards a complete undermining of our efforts to comply with FFP so on no level can it be said we did good business in the Summer.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #31: Nov 19, 2014 02:19:31 pm
      The FFP issue is only valid if we'd sold some of the other players that do not figure in our plans for the future. Those sales would have offset the costs of bringing in the younger players. But we didn't and when those players return from loan our wage bill will jump considerably. On top of that we over paid significantly for three players, all of which contributes towards a complete undermining of our efforts to comply with FFP so on no level can it be said we did good business in the Summer.

      Under 21s purchases don't affect FFP compliancy the same way as Over 21s do.  It was reported early this season that we sailed close to the wind in regards to compliancy this window which was offset in no small way by the purchase of younger players. I'm not saying it isn't frustrating, I'm not saying we signed all the right players, but we did need more depth, it was the biggest discussion point last season and it was rectified and I still believe the vast majority of these players will come good, some sooner than many may suspect, given the doom and gloom nature that is prevelant on many Liverpool forums of late. 

      We've overpaid for many players (not all) for as long as I can recall, in relative terms to the market and for me that must mean we've had 3 decades plus of ineptitude or that some clubs see us coming and put a little extra on.
      waltonl4
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #32: Nov 19, 2014 02:38:03 pm


      We've overpaid for many players (not all) for as long as I can recall, in relative terms to the market and for me that must mean we've had 3 decades plus of ineptitude or that some clubs see us coming and put a little extra on.


      I couldn't agree more mate what the hell is wrong with this club.
      s@int
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #33: Nov 19, 2014 02:39:00 pm
      Under 21s purchases don't affect FFP compliancy the same way as Over 21s do.

      I have read this a few times on here mate, but I couldn't find ANY exception on transfers under FFP rules? As far as I am aware the £20million we paid for Markovic for example, counts just as much as the £20million we paid for Lovren?



      heimdall
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #34: Nov 19, 2014 02:39:13 pm
      With the exception of Lambert I think all our summer signings have great promise although I do think that Balotelli is to much of a square peg for a round hole, he just won't adapt to our "style" of playing, but that's not really his fault.
      As I've said before our problem is not players but its in the coaching, how else can you explain an entire team simultaneously becoming crap. I know we have no strikers at the moment but there should be more than enough goals from midfield, yet there isn't, that points at poor tactics and/or team selections.
      A new, or at least rejuvenated, manager would breathe new life into the players. If I was Brendan I would be sacking my backroom staff and getting in more experience asap, if for no other reason than to cover my arse.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #35: Nov 19, 2014 02:41:22 pm
      I know many don't agree with me there and talk about percentages of wins, how many hundredths of a percentage point goals per game we need to score and other such nonsense
      Sorry for lifting just this from yet another passion filled post mate.

      Like you I hope that all our signings "will come VERY good" and come VERY good in time to deliver what has now become the 'Holy Grail', to so many: a top four finish.

      Unlike you tho'; I don't believe Brendan, when HE said we need well into the 70's [goals scored] to secure a top four finish, was talking nonsense nor do I believe that a top four finish will be determined by anything other than the percentage of wins we have.

      Other than that... loving the passion mate.  :gt-happyup:






      s@int
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #36: Nov 19, 2014 02:44:04 pm
      A new, or at least rejuvenated, manager would breathe new life into the players. If I was Brendan I would be sacking my backroom staff and getting in more experience asap, if for no other reason than to cover my arse.

      Is there much point just sacking the staff if we are going to get a new manager anyway. May as well just sack them all at once with Brendan and start with a clean slate. :)
      waltonl4
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #37: Nov 19, 2014 02:53:26 pm
      Is there much point just sacking the staff if we are going to get a new manager anyway. May as well just sack them all at once with Brendan and start with a clean slate. :)

      its such a F**k up you could look at everyone from Ayre to the tea lady and question their competence .
      I do see Pascoe and marsh as lightweights though.
      lreland
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #38: Nov 19, 2014 02:55:50 pm
      l think we should have brought on younger players, from academy like jordon rossiter, sheyi ojo, jerome sinclair, few more make up squad, then spent rest money on three key areas, like dm, forward and centre back on three top players are ready to play and move team forward these year,
      bigmick
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #39: Nov 19, 2014 02:56:53 pm
      One thing which gripes me at the moment, the "the only reason we're only four points off the top is because everyone else is sh!te" stance. What is it national state the obvious day or something? It's a weak league this year, there's only one really good team in it. As such, to come second third or fourth you don't have to be a really good side, you just have to gather more points than the other goodish sides.

      Which brings me onto the "70 goals" or "69 points" or "a win percentage of 58.982%" or whatever it is or supposed to be. See I don't care how many points we get, as long as it's more than anyone else in the league ideally or failing that more than everyone else outside the top four, that'll do for me. This is where I think people miss it when they say "but we're only picking up 1.452347 points per game" or whatever it is. I don't look at it like that, I think "we're playing sh!t but we're only three points behind Arsenal and two points behind the Mancs". I think it's them not us that should be worried because they've blown their opportunity to put distance between us.

      We WILL play a lot better than we are right now, and we WILL get into the rattle for the top four. From there it'll be about character and desire, and I back us to have more than either of those two clubs.   
      Roddenberry
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #40: Nov 19, 2014 03:13:29 pm
      I have read this a few times on here mate, but I couldn't find ANY exception on transfers under FFP rules? As far as I am aware the £20million we paid for Markovic for example, counts just as much as the £20million we paid for Lovren?



      If I recall correctly, it isn't all written off, but part is.  It was something I read in an article in which they were discussing how FFP had affected how we spent this summer.
      waltonl4
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #41: Nov 19, 2014 03:14:46 pm
      One thing which gripes me at the moment, the "the only reason we're only four points off the top is because everyone else is sh!te" stance. What is it national state the obvious day or something? It's a weak league this year, there's only one really good team in it. As such, to come second third or fourth you don't have to be a really good side, you just have to gather more points than the other goodish sides.

      Which brings me onto the "70 goals" or "69 points" or "a win percentage of 58.982%" or whatever it is or supposed to be. See I don't care how many points we get, as long as it's more than anyone else in the league ideally or failing that more than everyone else outside the top four, that'll do for me. This is where I think people miss it when they say "but we're only picking up 1.452347 points per game" or whatever it is. I don't look at it like that, I think "we're playing sh!t but we're only three points behind Arsenal and two points behind the Mancs". I think it's them not us that should be worried because they've blown their opportunity to put distance between us.

      We WILL play a lot better than we are right now, and we WILL get into the rattle for the top four. From there it'll be about character and desire, and I back us to have more than either of those two clubs.   

      but we cant score goals or defend a lead.thats the reality
      LFCexiled
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #42: Nov 19, 2014 03:16:12 pm
      Personally I'd rather have what we got than what the mancs spent £50m more on, their success with their new signings is comparable to ours and given time I can see the majority of our new signings coming good whereas they still need signings all over to continue their rebuilding process.

      It may be a bit of a rocky road at the moment but look around us, the leagues in a right mess and it looks to me that we are the ones most likely to ride it out intact.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #43: Nov 19, 2014 03:16:13 pm
      One thing which gripes me at the moment, the "the only reason we're only four points off the top is because everyone else is sh!te" stance. What is it national state the obvious day or something? It's a weak league this year, there's only one really good team in it. As such, to come second third or fourth you don't have to be a really good side, you just have to gather more points than the other goodish sides.

      Part of the problem being Mick we've, and you could use that collectively to include United/Arsenal/Spurs, fallen so far that we are now among the mid table sides. We've actually give teams that never had a chance in the past a real chance of taking that spot from us. You're completely dismissive of Southampton, with an 11 point lead on us after 11 games, I can't share that view. There's every chance we might finish ahead of United and still be out of the top 4 because we, and them, are sh*te this season.

      Which brings me onto the "70 goals" or "69 points" or "a win percentage of 58.982%" or whatever it is or supposed to be. See I don't care how many points we get, as long as it's more than anyone else in the league ideally or failing that more than everyone else outside the top four, that'll do for me.

      That would make us 5th...

      The reason people use those benchmarks is because they are proven to be the number of points required over an enormous sample size. Just as you state each game is very simple, so is each season in terms of points available and points required for specific targets. It's how Brendan analyses things and it is by far the most objective way of assessing the situation. So while you may not rate it, that's fine and you're allowed your own opinion, but you're not allowed your own facts.

      I think it's them not us that should eb worried because they've blown their opportunity to put distance between us.

      They could and would say exactly the same thing about us and as I've said before I believe they have more catalysts for change of form than we do, which has only been pushed more in their favour with the recent Sturridge injury.

      We WILL play a lot better than we are right now, and we WILL get into the rattle for the top four. From there it'll be about character and desire, and I back us to have more than either of those two clubs.

      Again Mick, these things you state as facts are in fact hopes, we all share the hope that we'll finish in 4th or above but before I start stating things as fact I want to see a bit of evidence to back it up first.
      s@int
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #44: Nov 19, 2014 03:23:54 pm
      If I recall correctly, it isn't all written off, but part is.  It was something I read in an article in which they were discussing how FFP had affected how we spent this summer.

      I don't think that is correct mate. Youth and community cost exclusions does not include transfers as far as I am aware.... not saying I am right!
      5timesacharm
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      Re: May as well be the first...I think some of our signings will come VERY good.
      Reply #45: Nov 19, 2014 03:42:50 pm
      Under 21s purchases don't affect FFP compliancy the same way as Over 21s do.  It was reported early this season that we sailed close to the wind in regards to compliancy this window which was offset in no small way by the purchase of younger players. I'm not saying it isn't frustrating, I'm not saying we signed all the right players, but we did need more depth, it was the biggest discussion point last season and it was rectified and I still believe the vast majority of these players will come good, some sooner than many may suspect, given the doom and gloom nature that is prevelant on many Liverpool forums of late. 

      We've overpaid for many players (not all) for as long as I can recall, in relative terms to the market and for me that must mean we've had 3 decades plus of ineptitude or that some clubs see us coming and put a little extra on.

      O.K., I'm not going to go in to full depth but you're missing my entire point. Our entire transfer principle is meant to be fiscally neutral. That simply means we spend on players, only what we make from direct football issues, such as TV money or player sales so net spending is close to zero. This Summer we reportedly had £60 million available from the former and £75 million from the latter. So long as we did not spend over this then we would not be spending anything that jeopardise our FFP compliance. So my point is that had we sold the players who do not figure in BR's plans rather than loaning them out, that would have been money we could have spent on players in, either by way of transfer fees or wages. As a result of this we wouldn't have to have brought in under-21s in order to comply with FFP.

      In short, FFP is all too readily being used as an excuse for our persistent under performance in the transfer market. It's one that FSG like to pull out after every window and one that some fans are beginning to buy in to.

      We needed players that would make an instant impact, not players who might come good in 2015 or 2016 and whilst there's inherent risk in all transfers, the better, more experienced, more established a player is, the lower the risk of that happening. Di Maria, Cesc Fabregas, Costa to name but a few, are proof in point of this.

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