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      At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?

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      5timesacharm
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #23: Nov 22, 2014 11:50:04 am
      Until such time as the structure and policies revolving around the transfers are changed and BR is found wanting in an environment more akin to other top teams then I'll support him because without real change to the organisation, there isn't a manager in the world that can take us to success. You also need to bear in mind that these people calling for his head are the same ones that where calling for his head in the first season from the first game because they have never and will never support him for a variety of reasons. These same, and I use the term loosely, 'supporters' were no where to be seen last season because everything was going well. Now things have gone pear shaped they have an opportunity to raise their voices again.
      stuey
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #24: Nov 22, 2014 11:54:10 am
      Until such time as the structure and policies revolving around the transfers are changed and BR is found wanting in an environment more akin to other top teams then I'll support him because without real change to the organisation, there isn't a manager in the world that can take us to success.

      A level playing field comes to mind.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #25: Nov 22, 2014 11:56:41 am
      A level playing field comes to mind.

      Exactly. No manager will be a success at any club if he's got one arm tied behind his back. I think the difference between H&G and FSG though is that the former were wilfully negligent in their business practices, the latter are simply misguided and need someone to steer them on the right path.
      waltonl4
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #26: Nov 22, 2014 12:24:40 pm
      Apart from Roy who I thought was the wrong choice for us I've never wanted a manager gone.

      I was gutted when Roy Evans went and in the circumstances too but Roy was never a Liverpool man he was a H&G man.
      We still have much to play for this season but we cant keep F***ing up.
      racerx34
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #27: Nov 22, 2014 12:32:04 pm

      Outside. Now!
      s@int
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #28: Nov 22, 2014 01:12:53 pm
      I think if our form doesn't improve this season, I would want a change in the summer. Around 50/55 points, no cups and no signs of any significant progress from now would be enough for me to want a change. Win any cup (not at the fair) and I think he deserves more time.

      Houllier was sacked even after gaining CL qualification which is I suppose one measure?

         
      FL Red
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #29: Nov 22, 2014 03:37:22 pm
      If we finish mid table this season...I honestly don't know how Brendan stays. He has had to deal with injury (Sturridge) and life without Suarez, but to go from 2nd to mid table would be hard to overcome I think.

      My expectations this year were title and knockout stages of CL....so finishing mid table would make me re-evaluate whether Brendan was the right man for the job going forward.

      So much of it though is a question of what constraints he is under from FSG....would another manager be any better if FSG ties their hands (if that's the case with Brendan)?
      David Wright
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #30: Nov 22, 2014 03:56:02 pm
      Unless things go horribly wrong, like be in the relegation zone, I know that we are not far off that now,  but in the New year, end up out of all competitions. Think Brendan should stay on until the end of the season, and then revaluate Brendan's position. Another thing who would the club turn to as a replacement manager if a change where to be made.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #31: Nov 22, 2014 03:59:42 pm
      If we finish mid table this season...I honestly don't know how Brendan stays. He has had to deal with injury (Sturridge) and life without Suarez, but to go from 2nd to mid table would be hard to overcome I think.

      My expectations this year were title and knockout stages of CL....so finishing mid table would make me re-evaluate whether Brendan was the right man for the job going forward.

      So much of it though is a question of what constraints he is under from FSG....would another manager be any better if FSG ties their hands (if that's the case with Brendan)?

      That's the entire point though isn't it? There's a wealth of anecdotal evidence to suggest he is operating with his hands tied so what is the point of sacking him only to bring another manager in and make him work under the same constraints? If it is indeed a policy choice that's hampering our progress, then the new manager will have to work under the same conditions as Brendan is. If you change policy for a new manager then why not do it for the existing one?

      There isn't a lot wrong at Liverpool that couldn't be fixed with policy changes. He showed last season that he can adapt his tactics accordingly, the problems we have are in the market with consistently poor transfers. Improve that aspect of the club and everything else falls in to place. At what point do FSG sit down, look at their policies and decide they aren't working?
      s@int
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #32: Nov 22, 2014 04:15:29 pm
      If we finish mid table this season...I honestly don't know how Brendan stays. He has had to deal with injury (Sturridge) and life without Suarez, but to go from 2nd to mid table would be hard to overcome I think.

      My expectations this year were title and knockout stages of CL....so finishing mid table would make me re-evaluate whether Brendan was the right man for the job going forward.

      So much of it though is a question of what constraints he is under from FSG....would another manager be any better if FSG ties their hands (if that's the case with Brendan)?

      I suppose if you accept that the transfer problem is open to question, you just have to go with the players and decide where you would expect our squad of players to finish. I think with the players we have, we should be at least top 6 (without Sturridge), so anything below that and if there are no extenuating circumstances (cup) that would be one flag raised.

      Are his tactics getting the best out of the players at his disposal is another way of putting it.
      redkop63
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #33: Nov 22, 2014 05:09:52 pm
      We could put all the blame on the owners, buying cheap and young players. But for me it's only half the blame. What about the tactics on the field? Lallana and Lambert  are most effective thrusting through the middle, yet both of them camped outside the box. Balo can't play as a lone striker, even during his time in City we could see that, yet game after game he was asked to do so. There's absoultely no connect between midfield and attack. Stevie is no DM and yet BR persists to play him at that role. Sturridge out as an excuse for the poor form is totally unacceptable. BR simply has got no plan B or C, that's a fact. The frighthening thing is does he even knows what is wrong with his tactics at the moment when all posters here said the same thing but in different manner.

      I'm now beginning to question even the capability of the coaches Pascoe and Marsh, do they have enough experience to bring this club forward, or do they even know what is wrong with the tactics, strengths and weaknesses of the players. I'm not asking for BR to be sacked but if he doesn't realise soon what's wrong with his tactics then he is simply accelerating his own departure. After spending near to 120 mil on players, there's no excuse for such poor form and tactics.

      5timesacharm
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #34: Nov 22, 2014 06:34:47 pm
      I think that regardless of what happens this season, whether we win the title or get relegated, the club's execs have to sit down and conduct an internal audit in to all club personnel, policies and structure. Having Ian Ayre as the only UK-based board room member clearly isn't working and our recruitment is persistently failing with far too many cloak and daggers surrounding it. They need to examine whether their five year plan, at what will be over half way complete, is on course, is working and whether it is likely to deliver on the club's ambitions. This is good business practice because there's no point in waiting another two years, either with a new or the same manager, only to find out it's failed.
      waltonl4
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #35: Nov 22, 2014 06:55:49 pm
      I think that regardless of what happens this season, whether we win the title or get relegated, the club's execs have to sit down and conduct an internal audit in to all club personnel, policies and structure. Having Ian Ayre as the only UK-based board room member clearly isn't working and our recruitment is persistently failing with far too many cloak and daggers surrounding it. They need to examine whether their five year plan, at what will be over half way complete, is on course, is working and whether it is likely to deliver on the club's ambitions. This is good business practice because there's no point in waiting another two years, either with a new or the same manager, only to find out it's failed.

      would you trust FSG and Ayres to make a good decision though. This is their policy and their wage structure.
      MIRO
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #36: Nov 22, 2014 07:20:20 pm
      Has this been sparked by Klopp saying he's ready to manage in the Premier League?

      I doubt he'd leave Dortmund to move into a worse situation at Liverpool.


      Klopp always my first choice
      He or Deschamps.
      (If a certain poster wants to ferret around in his little hole in the skirting board on archived posts then he can find it)

      Stats.

      Klopp win ratio at Dortmund after 6 years     58.19%
      Deschamps win ratio    France  after 2 years  57.14%
      Scum manager over 26 years                       59.00%
      bmck
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #37: Nov 22, 2014 07:20:21 pm
      Not at the first sign of trouble anyway.
      MIRO
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #38: Nov 22, 2014 07:22:07 pm
      I dont want Rodgers sacked.

      More  ado ........
      FL Red
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #39: Nov 22, 2014 09:49:04 pm
      Klopp always my first choice
      He or Deschamps.
      (If a certain poster wants to ferret around in his little hole in the skirting board on archived posts then he can find it)

      Stats.

      Klopp win ratio at Dortmund after 6 years     58.19%
      Deschamps win ratio    France  after 2 years  57.14%
      Scum manager over 26 years                       59.00%

      Replacing Rodgers with Klopp would be a head scratcher mate. Klopp has done very little to impress in my mind, especially having some of the players he has had at his disposal.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #40: Nov 22, 2014 10:06:56 pm
      Klopp always my first choice
      He or Deschamps.
      (If a certain poster wants to ferret around in his little hole in the skirting board on archived posts then he can find it)

      Stats.

      Klopp win ratio at Dortmund after 6 years     58.19%
      Deschamps win ratio    France  after 2 years  57.14%
      Scum manager over 26 years                       59.00%

      Looking at win ratios is really misleading because it doesn't paint the whole picture. It doesn't take in to account squad depth, player quality, injuries, strength of opposition or hundreds of other little factors. It's a nice stat to put on your CV but it doesn't really prove anything.
      rossyred
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #41: Nov 22, 2014 10:20:41 pm
      Players will dictate. If he loses the dressing room hes a goner, if your signings dont work will always work against you and the finishing pos in table will be the final nail in coffin
      MiG
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #42: Nov 22, 2014 10:26:15 pm
      Replacing Rodgers with Klopp would be a head scratcher mate. Klopp has done very little to impress in my mind, especially having some of the players he has had at his disposal.
      Little?
      check Dortmund prior 2008, in 07/08 they were 13th out of 18 teams in Bundesliga, then in his first season he got them 6th, he got them twice to be champions of germany league in 10/11 and 11/12. He got 2nd the season after that. Got to champions league final. etc.
      Well he got 6 years already, but the point is I don't think that's "little" contribution to achieve those things, even with players that he got.
      EDIT : Klopp started on 2008.
      FL Red
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #43: Nov 22, 2014 10:40:32 pm
      Little?
      check Dortmund prior 2008, in 07/08 they were 13th out of 18 teams in Bundesliga, then in his first season he got them 6th, he got them twice to be champions of germany league in 10/11 and 11/12. He got 2nd the season after that. Got to champions league final. etc.
      Well he got 6 years already, but the point is I don't think that's "little" contribution to achieve those things, even with players that he got.
      EDIT : Klopp started on 2008.

      Look at the players he had during those title years, then look at how they are getting along after losing many of their best players. You can be impressed if you like that's your prerogative. Me not so much thanks.
      federer
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #44: Nov 22, 2014 10:40:44 pm
      I think this idea of a manager being some kind of sacred cow is really blown out of proportion.  We all would love a Shankly figure who would be here for years and years and years but the times have changed.  First of all, failure for us has much, much bigger consequences than it did decades ago.  Because we don't have an oil tycoon owner, we are desperately dependent on the tens of millions from Champions League to keep us competitive.  If we miss out on CL, it's not just "oh well, better luck next year."  No.  FSG and co see that as a LOSS of tens of millions of pounds. 

      On the football pitch failure is just as dangerous.  Dropping out of the CL and being in the wilderness for so many years meant that no top players wanted to come to us, other than Suarez who even then wasn't world-class at the time.  I mean look at all the players who we bid for who rejected us, Willian, Costa, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, etc.  When you fall out of the elite, it becomes a dangerous and vicious cycle where you aren't elite anymore, and therefore the elite players don't want to play for you, so you can't.... become elite again, because the top players solidify the standing of the top teams! 

      So.  We have to do everything we can to stay competitive.  People don't want to call for a manager's head because they feel some stigma about being like those "other clubs."  But if you knew that Manager-X was objectively not good for the club, then why would you NOT want a new manager?  if Manager-X is bad for the club, and you don't want him gone just because you value "stability" more than success, then in fact in that moment you're putting an individual above the club.

      As for Rodgers, I don't see why he "deserves" time.  If we had won the league last season, then ok, he would deserve time.  But he didn't win us the league.  We came in second.  First losers. 

      But that's not even really the issue.  It's not just that we're not doing well.  It's two things: 1) the worrying fact that he is so, so stubborn.  He keeps playing Johnson, he keeps playing Lovren, he keeps playing Stevie at DM, he keeps playing Allen etc etc.  He refuses to accept that there are other options.  Look at Pardew a few weeks ago---things weren't working, his lot wanted him out, but at least he was trying new things.  "Okay, these 11 aren't winning, let's throw someone else into the mix."  At least it's a new perspective.  With Rodgers, it's "okay, Plan A isn't working.  So let's try Plan A again.  and again.  and again and again and again."  On top of that he lies through his teeth, saying players can earn their places, and yet when Toure played the best game by a CB we've seen in a long time, he then... got dropped for Lovren against Chelsea.  And then there is 2), the fact that pretty much all the sh*te players we have now, are players that Rodgers signed.  He himself has said he has the last word on transfers.  So if he didn't want a player, the player wouldn't be here.  He's spent almost 200m on players since he's come.  And who can be called an unequivocal success?  Coutinho and Sturridge are probably the only ones (and Sturridge has proven to be made of glass!). 

      So, getting down to the nitty gritty about when it's okay to consider a new manager, I think that if by the end of December things haven't drastically turned around, we should consider it.  We have a lot of games between now and then so plenty of opportunity for Rodgers to try something new.  There's no point in giving him until the end of the season if this goes on, because we MUST have CL again.  Absolutely have to.  And in such a weak league this year, we can't let it slip up.  So what that means is we would get a new manager to turn things around in the second half of the season; however, it would be unfair to make him do that with just Rodgers' players, so he would have to come in in January so that he can have a shot to bring in some players he thinks can turn it around.

      I guess the point is: it would be stupid to get rid of Rodgers in, say, March or April.  By then it's too late to turn things around because any new manager wouldn't be able to bring in new players.  But if this continues through the end of December, and someone comes available, then it would make sense to do it sooner rather than later, that way the new manager would have a transfer window to make signings and would have a good 5 months to turn the team around and get us CL again.

      I don't have any problem calling for Rodgers to go; the club is much more important than Rodgers (even though it seems at times he doesn't believe that himself).  If things don't improve massively by the end of December then we should seriously look at who is available to come in and clean up this mess.
      JD
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      Re: At what point do YOU call for a manager to go?
      Reply #45: Nov 22, 2014 10:50:56 pm
      In general I don't believe in changing managers during the season.

      I think you assess at the end of the season against the targets you had pre-season.

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