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      Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?

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      yacster
      • Forum Kenny Dalglish
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      Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Dec 12, 2014 10:23:10 pm
      No matter what two we play at centre back there is a vulnerability. Lone strikers aren't working. We're not blessed with wingers and the best, sterling can play centrally. In Moreno and Johndon we have decent wing backs. This may well be worth trying
      HScRed1
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #1: Dec 12, 2014 10:40:31 pm
      No matter what two we play at centre back there is a vulnerability. Lone strikers aren't working. We're not blessed with wingers and the best, sterling can play centrally. In Moreno and Johndon we have decent wing backs. This may well be worth trying

      Not sure about Johndon but Johnson can't even play as a fullback never mind wingback.
      The opposition would have a field day when he constantly loses the ball high up and then jogs back.
      The defence has actually been improving recently now that Lucas is providing a bit of cover. It's the other end of the pitch what is most concerning.

      DutchLiverpoolFan
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #2: Dec 12, 2014 11:29:53 pm
      No matter what two we play at centre back there is a vulnerability. Lone strikers aren't working. We're not blessed with wingers and the best, sterling can play centrally. In Moreno and Johndon we have decent wing backs. This may well be worth trying
      A 3-5-2 doesn't work in the PL, we've seen that against Arsenal last season and Man U are failing with it too.
      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #3: Dec 13, 2014 08:45:51 am
      False 9 please
      bigmick
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #4: Dec 13, 2014 10:46:50 am
      I've been advocating this for a little while now. Given our lack of attacking options, pinning the full backs as we currently are isn't the answer. Neither Moreno nor Johnson are good defenders, so it might be time to really let them bomb on where both can inflict damage. The extra centre half could really release the burden on some of our lads and take off the shackles.

      There is of course the added point that centre half is the only spot on the team sheet where we have more good players than available slots. Last year Brendan found a way to "get our best players on the pitch", I hope he does this time too.
      Brian78
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #5: Dec 13, 2014 02:20:56 pm
      No because none of our defenders are good enough to play it. Not one of them can carry a ball out and not one of them can hit a long pass that would open up the oppositions defence
      insideanfield
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #6: Dec 13, 2014 02:30:28 pm
      I've said this previously. I think Manquillo/Moreno would make better wing-backs than full-backs and three centre-backs gives us more solidity too and would allow Gerrard to play the quarter-back position if the manager so desires.


      Mignolet

      Skrtel - Toure - Sakho

      Manquillo ----------------------------- Moreno

      Henderson - Gerrard - Lallana

      Sterling - Sturridge
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #7: Dec 13, 2014 02:52:06 pm
      A 3-5-2 doesn't work in the PL, we've seen that against Arsenal last season and Man U are failing with it too.

      United have won 6 games in a row with 3-5-2 how is that failing exactly?
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #8: Dec 13, 2014 08:39:46 pm
      In the games I've watched it seems whatever formation we start with collapse into a 10 1 anyway so why not.
      PaulKG
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #9: Dec 13, 2014 10:40:02 pm
      Only rumours on twitter but some saying we're going for 3 at the back tomorrow
      yacster
      • Forum Kenny Dalglish
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #10: Dec 14, 2014 09:11:12 am
      The reason it didn't work last year against arsenal for example is that cissokho and Flanagan are excellent defensively but limited going forward. The opposite is true for Moreno and Johnson. It would solve the 'how do you play Lovren and sakho together' question and stops front men getting isolated.

      Today it could look like this
      Mig
      Johnson Toure Skrtel Lovren Moreno
      Henderson Lucas
      Gerrard
      Sterling Lambert

      With Markovic an option upfront until Balo or Sturridge return. We can discuss dropping Gerrard all we like but the last 3 games suggest we can't drop him and with the exception of Can none of the bench will have done enough recently to suggest that starting them is vital
      Fowlersleftpeg
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #11: Dec 14, 2014 10:58:29 am
      No because none of our defenders are good enough to play it. Not one of them can carry a ball out...

      This. Essential for a 'functional' 3-5-2 system.

      Besides, long diagonals to either end will force the 'spare' CB to cover (due to 'poor' positional sense of the wingbacks). We want 'protect' our weaknesses, not highlight them.

      United have largely picked up points due to an outstanding goalie - sometimes you win despite the system. The ball is round - luck accounts for over 50% of the result. That being said, the spare man could work vs United - they're not very fluid at the minute.
      bigmick
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #12: Dec 18, 2014 10:35:14 am
      Time to revisit this now we've played the three at the back in two consecutive games.

      The first thing to point out is that in typical Brendan style (and I reckon this is the MAIN reason that I like the manager as much as I do) we are playing a ridiculously, almost comically attacking version of the system. Yes we have three centre halves, but then on the right we have a Duracell midfielder who bombs up and down and wants to get forward, on the left we have a striker/wide man who is about as suited to the defensive side as me when I've got a pint in my hand. Not only that, but we don't in conventional style play a "5-3-2", we actually play a 5-2-3, with Lallana, Coutinho and Sterling essentially playing as front players. When we have it, it becomes a 3-2-5 on occasions with Markovic and Henderson up in their box (like for the first goal yesterday).

      Now if we played Flanaghan left side and Manquillo right, with Henderson in the middle with Gerrard and Lucas, it would look much more like the 5-3-2 everyone is familiar with. It would play much more like it too, we'd look a lot more solid on the one hand, a lot less potent on the other. I like this version the boss has come up with though, although it does pose problems for us which we are going to have to address pretty readily if it's really going to succeed.

      The first thing which needs to change is the centre halves (and the fans come to that) are going to have to have to accept that we are going to get broken onto in numbers at various periods of every match. When you play a front three with the defensive capabilities of Sterling, Lallana and Coutinho, as well as Markovic at left back and Henderson on the right, you'd better get ready to do some defending if you're centre half. The mistake the three are making at the moment is they are defending as if they were two, rather than making use of the fact they CAN commit to leaving their normal area because there's three of them. Rooney and Gosling have scored the identical goal against us in the last few days, and on both occasions the left sided centre half was too reluctant to come out and engage the crosser, while the central centre half was too reluctant to come away from the goal and engage anyone who's broken through the midfield net. Defensively the system doesn't have too much going for it, so it's essential the centre halves fully utilize the one positive that they have (namely that there are three of them). At the moment they are adapting and still playing like a two which is making us more porous than is necessary.

      The last point is a selectorial one, and perhaps a strange one coming from me. It is that if we are going to play this system in the way in which we are (and I for one hope we continue it), then we absolutely MUST play Lucas. Out of our available personnel, he is the only out and out defensive midfielder in the squad and as such he must play. My guess is that we could do with a better one longer term, but now really isn't the time to be leaving him out. It must be Lucas plus A.N. other and he must sit really close to the back three, right in the pocket.

      As it is though it's very encouraging. Gerrard/Lucas worked well against Bournemouth, and Markovic is emerging from out of the fog of "120 million spunked" to look like a player. Lallana continues to sneak under the radar of the non observant and is a fine footballer, and there's just a chance we can get something going. We as fans though had better strap ourselves in for a very bumpy ride, under this system we WILL concede lots of chances and we WILL concede goals (just for a change like). To this end, having a goalie who can save lots of shots would be a plus, simply because he's going to need to. That 's why I believe Mignolet must come back in.     
      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #13: Dec 18, 2014 10:48:15 am
      Time to revisit this now we've played the three at the back in two consecutive games.

      The first thing to point out is that in typical Brendan style (and I reckon this is the MAIN reason that I like the manager as much as I do) we are playing a ridiculously, almost comically attacking version of the system. Yes we have three centre halves, but then on the right we have a Duracell midfielder who bombs up and down and wants to get forward, on the left we have a striker/wide man who is about as suited to the defensive side as me when I've got a pint in my hand. Not only that, but we don't in conventional style play a "5-3-2", we actually play a 5-2-3, with Lallana, Coutinho and Sterling essentially playing as front players. When we have it, it becomes a 3-2-5 on occasions with Markovic and Henderson up in their box (like for the first goal yesterday).

      Now if we played Flanaghan left side and Manquillo right, with Henderson in the middle with Gerrard and Lucas, it would look much more like the 5-3-2 everyone is familiar with. It would play much more like it too, we'd look a lot more solid on the one hand, a lot less potent on the other. I like this version the boss has come up with though, although it does pose problems for us which we are going to have to address pretty readily if it's really going to succeed.

      The first thing which needs to change is the centre halves (and the fans come to that) are going to have to have to accept that we are going to get broken onto in numbers at various periods of every match. When you play a front three with the defensive capabilities of Sterling, Lallana and Coutinho, as well as Markovic at left back and Henderson on the right, you'd better get ready to do some defending if you're centre half. The mistake the three are making at the moment is they are defending as if they were two, rather than making use of the fact they CAN commit to leaving their normal area because there's three of them. Rooney and Gosling have scored the identical goal against us in the last few days, and on both occasions the left sided centre half was too reluctant to come out and engage the crosser, while the central centre half was too reluctant to come away from the goal and engage anyone who's broken through the midfield net. Defensively the system doesn't have too much going for it, so it's essential the centre halves fully utilize the one positive that they have (namely that there are three of them). At the moment they are adapting and still playing like a two which is making us more porous than is necessary.

      The last point is a selectorial one, and perhaps a strange one coming from me. It is that if we are going to play this system in the way in which we are (and I for one hope we continue it), then we absolutely MUST play Lucas. Out of our available personnel, he is the only out and out defensive midfielder in the squad and as such he must play. My guess is that we could do with a better one longer term, but now really isn't the time to be leaving him out. It must be Lucas plus A.N. other and he must sit really close to the back three, right in the pocket.

      As it is though it's very encouraging. Gerrard/Lucas worked well against Bournemouth, and Markovic is emerging from out of the fog of "120 million spunked" to look like a player. Lallana continues to sneak under the radar of the non observant and is a fine footballer, and there's just a chance we can get something going. We as fans though had better strap ourselves in for a very bumpy ride, under this system we WILL concede lots of chances and we WILL concede goals (just for a change like). To this end, having a goalie who can save lots of shots would be a plus, simply because he's going to need to. That 's why I believe Mignolet must come back in.     

      The way Brendan deploys it the system looks more like a 3-4-3.
      No way in hell anybody thinks Markovic and Henderson played like wingbacks.

      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #14: Dec 18, 2014 11:37:51 am
      Here's an article I thought was interesting.
      It's about Guardiola at Bayern, but it's the 3-4-2-1 that interests me.
      Especially if it helps us beat Chelsea, which the author suggests it would be strong against.

      Pep Guardiola's 3-4-3: A new twist on an old idea

      By Ryan Cowper  @cowperryan on Aug 5 2014



      The 3-4-3 is an older formation but Bayern Munich have the personnel, and Pep Guardiola has the brains, to add a new twist to breath new life back into the formation.


      Last season, Pep Guardiola started out the gate with a 4-1-4-1 system. That systems was built directly around the biggest strengths of Toni Kroos; namely his ability to distribute, shuttle, and playmake up and down the spine of the side. It's exactly this reason that he was considered one of the best central midfielders in European football. It's what lead Real Madrid to buy him for close to €30M just after the World Cup final even though he only had one year left on his contract.

      However, in the last 6-9 months we've seen the beginnings of a transition from that 4-1-4-1 to a system using a 3-man backline. Early attempts last winter ranged from unique to downright awful (in the case of the Red Bull Salzburg friendly). Pep Guardiola used a 3-2-2-3 variant both legs against a woeful Manchester United before ultimately rolling out the 3-4-3 against Borussia Dortmund in the DFB Pokal final.

      With a full healthy squad the 3-4-3 allows Bayern Munich an almost endless range of versatility and flexibility that, while powerful in it's own right, the 4-1-4-1 didn't allow.

      The classical 3-4-3

      The classical 3-4-3 archetype has been around for several decades. The formation is extremely strong though the midfield, but like most 3-man backlines, its gains that strength by sacrificing width. The formation naturally struggles against the classical 4-3-3, but with such a possession dominant side like Bayern Munich, the man advantage in midfield can actually be a blessing worth the sacrifice.

      While the defensive phase of the game relies on the 3-man backline and the 4-man midfield(including 2 wingbacks), the offensive side of the game has featured several different main archetypes over the years; the 3-4-1-2 and the 3-4-2-1. The former uses an attacking midfielder behind a two striker set. This formation is almost entirely offensive and extremely strong against a 4-man backline, occupying the main centerbacks and opening space for the CAM. The formation was strong in the age of the 4-4-2 with it's numerical supremacy in midfield but dwindled in use as the 4-2-3-1 evolved, eliminating it's chief advantage and attacking it's biggest weakness (lack of width).

      The 3-4-2-1 is a much more demanding tactical formation, using two withdrawn strikers/CAMs behind the main striker. It's a formation that requires squads to rotate and be tactically maleable. The two withdrawn strikers are the most critical piece of the attack, for as one shifts wide, the other tucks in behind the main striker to maintain midfield superiority. Without the two strikers up front, much of the supplementary attacking burden in the 3-4-2-1 falls on the wide players: the wingbacks. Without their contributions, the attack can't maintain any numerical superiority in attack and falters more often then not. This requires them to be aggressive yet also disciplined, as they are the only wide defensive options.

      The main reason the 3-4-2-1 never become too widespread in use was the demanding nature of the formation. It requires players to be tactically astute. It requires them to have very complete skillsets. And last but far from least, is that it requires players to be at the top of their games physically. The lack of width puts enormous pressure on the wingbacks, while the 3-man press upfront requires a sustained level of coordination. It's good that these are things Bayern Munich has in spades.

      Bayern Munich's 3-man backline

       

      The main structural difference between last year's 4-1-4-1 and this year's 3-4-3 is obviously the 3-man backline. Like all 3-man backlines it will have to play narrow and compact in defense. This is something we can basically count on as failure to do this against almost any modern formation is akin to committing suicide.

      However, the main focus of the 3-man backline isn't the defensive structure, it's the structure in possession. The main intent is to neuter the opposition press. As we saw in the Pokal final against Borussia Dortmund, offering 3 targets against a two-man press gives Bayern Munich too many passing options. With patience and guile, that press can be exhausted. For sides like Borussia Dortmund or Chelsea that rely on the pressing game as their main defensive strategy, this means they must cede their main defensive advantage against Bayern Munich. When sides opt to be more aggressive by using a three man press, Bayern Munich's ability to drop the wingbacks, along with the presence of two defensive midfielders is already built in to specifically counter that problem.

      The key element in the 3-man backline is the central centerback. While both wide centerbacks function like true classical centerbacks, the middle one has to play exactly like a distributing midfielder. This makes it a fantastic position for both Javi Martinez and Holger Badstuber and it also allows them the a certain license in freedom of movement. This is most helpful for Javi Martinez whose best ability is to read opposition attacks, creating interceptions and tackles. If need be the central centerback can step into holding midfield to bring more bodies into the attack or it can drop deeper to act as a libero depending on the offensive setup of the opposition.

      Wingbacks and Defensive Midfield Structure are linked entities

      In the 2013/2014 DFB Pokal final, the starting formation used Toni Kroos and Phillip Lahm in a double pivot. While Lahm's injury that completely changed the match, the original double pivot did a masterful job of containing the Dortmund press and it's this feature that Pep Guardiola has carried on into the new season.

      To date, Guardiola has used a distributor joined with a box-to-box midfielder, often a pairing of Gianluca Gaudino and Sebastian Rode. Now with the return of the rest of the squad expect that partnership to mostly involve Philipp Lahm and Bastian Schweinsteiger. However, where that double pivot becomes really dangerous is when Thiago Alcantara returns from injury. The 24-year-old Spaniard is capable of filling in for Philipp Lahm as the main distributor or he can slot in alongside Philipp Lahm and both players can continuously swap roles presenting the opposition with a shifting movement pattern from holding midfield.

      However, in this new system, the lynchpins of the offense become the wingbacks. If they function correctly they allow the entire holding midfield to run like clockwork. If they struggle and get taken out of the match, the whole side can become unbalanced. Guardiola has two options here: he can utilize players like Pierre Hojbjerg and David Alaba, who will tuck centrally, in addition to functioning in attack, allowing the box-to-box midfielder to be much more aggressive. This option plays directly into both Sebastian Rode's wheelhouse, as we've seen this preseason, as well as Bastian Schweinsteiger's (as we've seen for the last 5 years).

      The other option is to use players like Juan Bernat and Rafinha who can stay wider and stretch opposition defenses giving more space in the center for the holding midfielders and centerbacks to step into. Either option can be used to target the opposition's main defensive weaknesses. The chief advantage is that switching back and forth between these types of actions is flawless. While a player like Juan Bernat looks to be more suited to hugging the touchline, Rafinha and Alaba are capable of playing in both riles, while Hojbjerg and Rode are more comfortable filling in as secondary defensive midfielders. Adding in the ability of Philipp Lahm to play any of those tactical options, on either side of the pitch, and we being to see just how truly dynamic wingback play could become this season.

      The Attacking Trio

       

      With Robert Lewandowski in the fold, Pep Guardiola finally has the dynamic possession-based striker he's always wanted. The mobility Lewandowski brings allows Pep Guardiola to experiment with different attacking midfield skillsets. Lewandowski's can drop deep and play as a false 9 along with his ability to shift out towards the wing and interchange with the wide midfielders, allowing him to bring a high degree of versatility to the Bayern Munich attack. Partnering with Franck Ribery and Arjen Robben who have been given a more free role in Pep Guardiola's team, gives Bayern Munich the potential for a highly dynamic and explosive attacking midfield. Adding in Thomas Müller and Mario Götze gives Bayern Munich more disciplined and creative options capable of adding tactical nuances. But more important then both of those players are the roles Xherdan Shaqiri and Thiago Alcantara could play. With a simple change, or even no change, Bayern Munich can easily shift into a 3-4-1-2. Both Shaqiri and Thiago's ability to dribble, create, and play off a main striker anywhere along the attacking band would give them the freedom to completely take over a match offensively feeding a potent striker partnership hammering away at the opposition

      Tactical Flexibility

      As we saw last year with the 4-1-4-1, the main key to Pep Guardiola's managerial style at Bayern Munich is tactical flexibility. Without altering personnel this formation can be shifted into a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3, a 3-5-2, or even the 3-2-2-3 as the roles between the three different formation prove to be extremely complementary. Whichever way Pep Guardiola ends up rolling, this season is going to be extremely interesting tactically and the 3-4-2-1 is at the heart of that.

      link


                                      Jones

                                      Skrtel
                      Toure                         Sakho

      Henderson       Gerrard       Lucas         Markovic

                     Lallana                      Coutinho
                                    Sterling
                                   
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #15: Dec 18, 2014 11:58:37 am
      Something seriously wrong if we using a result against Bournemouth as evidence as what will "save us".

      PS Anyone see what a fat pig their keeper was?
      Bmth are a pub team. Good football. But still a pub team.

      PS anyway Manquillo, Moreno, Json AND Enrique all look like wingbacks.
      Why we are sh*te at the back is a different matter. Because we are pretty poor in most areas.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #16: Dec 18, 2014 12:00:52 pm
      Back 3 for me for the time being.

      Regardless of who we were playing, last night was the best I've seen us since spurs away.

      Why fix something that isn't broken?

      Keep the same team for Arsenal and go again.

      Besides, we can't defend for our lives so we might as well put more men further up the pitch and try and outscore teams again.
      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #17: Dec 18, 2014 12:18:24 pm
      Something seriously wrong if we using a result against Bournemouth as evidence as what will "save us".

      PS Anyone see what a fat pig their keeper was?
      Bmth are a pub team. Good football. But still a pub team.

      PS anyway Manquillo, Moreno, Json AND Enrique all look like wingbacks.
      Why we are sh*te at the back is a different matter. Because we are pretty poor in most areas.

      Currently it's moved on to "Is this the formation that best uses the players we have".
      I'd say the answer is yes. Last season we beat Bournemouth 2-0 with Suarez and Sturridge.
      This season we won 3-1.

      This formation allows us to play in a more dynamic way than any other we have tried so far.
      It may not save our season, but it has given more signs than any other that it might.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #18: Dec 18, 2014 12:26:17 pm
      I think against a lot of teams in the league we can get away with that formation but would be worried against the top teams. There is just too many gaps with Gerrard and Lucas as the holding midfielders they don't have the pace to plug those gaps.
      Unless of course the back 4 push up closer to the midfield to squeeze that space but with Skrtel in there not sure it would work.
      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #19: Dec 18, 2014 12:27:40 pm
      I think against a lot of teams in the league we can get away with that formation but would be worried against the top teams. There is just too many gaps with Gerrard and Lucas as the holding midfielders they don't have the pace to plug those gaps.
      Unless of course the back 4 push up closer to the midfield to squeeze that space but with Skrtel in there not sure it would work.

      I'd like to see us try it with Can in the team.
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #20: Dec 18, 2014 12:32:23 pm
      I think the 3-5-2 would work, provided we have two DMs who can cover the full back positions if the winegrs get caught out of position and can't get back in time.

                 Mig (preferably a new keeper)

          Skrtl       Lovren/Toure      Sakho

                  Can                 Lucas   
      Hendo            Couts                Markovic

                  Sterling    Studge (or a new striker)

      This would work I reckon. However, some games, such as top teams with a lot of movement (Chelsea and Arsenal) may need 4-4-2
      racerx34
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #21: Dec 18, 2014 02:14:42 pm
      I think Lovren needs to be dropped and told to fight for his place like Toure and Sakho have had to.

      No choice now.
      PaulKG
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: Can the 3 5 2 formation save us?
      Reply #22: Dec 18, 2014 02:32:00 pm
      Loved that article posted by racerx34 . Seems to be exactly where we are heading, the u18s + u21s have both played their most recent games set up the same aswell, 3 centre backs, 2 wing backs/wingers, 2 holding mids, 2 attacking mids + 1 striker.

      The article says that it works well with the 2 holding mids being a deep playmaker who spreads the ball out (Gerrard) + a box-to-box player who can get at the opposition and break up play (Henderson/Can). 2 attacking mids need to be flexible by offering some width but also pitching in with the striker (Lallana, Sterling, Coutinho). Whilst the striker also needs to drop deep and wide to get the ball at times (Sturridge).

      Seems to be a perfect fit for our team at the moment and because some of the players are very flexible in terms of position we have 2 very suitable backups in every position.

                                          Jones
                          Toure        Skrtel       Sakho
               Henderson     Gerrard    Can        Markovic
                                Sterling      Lallana
                                         Sturridge

      Could certainly see that being a regular XI once Sturridge is back from injury, offers a lot of pace and stamina (especially from the wide players) and also some strong defensive nouse from the likes of Can, Henderson + the 3 CB's.

      Also in terms of backup:
      GK:Mignolet
      CB:Lovren, Gerrard
      RWB:Johnson, Manquillo, Sterling
      LWB:Moreno, Johnson, Enrique
      DM:Lucas, Henderson, Allen
      AM:Coutinho, Gerrard, Borini
      ST:Sterling, Balotelli, Borini, Lambert

      I know I have listed a few players that are already starting etc. but I just done it for the next best selection.

      The only 'problem' with this is that it perhaps forces some players out of their best positions, so Henderson at RWB rather than CM (obviously could play Johnson/Manquillo there though) but everyone else seems to fit into their natural positions.

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