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      Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?

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      Hollywood Balls
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      Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Dec 15, 2014 10:53:59 am
      As a club we have frequently been accused of being a "one man team" in recent years.

      As the standard of the group has been dragged upwards by individual performances you can see why club outsiders may say that. In our recent history it can be argued that all of our managers have been defined by how they have handled the transition of those players.

      Rafa sold Xabi in controversial circumstances and found it hard to recover.

      Hodge tried to reshape Reina's game completely unsuccessfully and started the process which saw him leaving the club.

      Kenny failed to bring Carra's time at the club to the end it needed to have and only managed to get rid of Torres through the good fortune of him hitting the self destruct button.

      Now Brendan has seemingly bet his cards on a waning Steven Gerrard and has scrambled to cover the loss of Suarez which appears to have come as a huge surprise to the club.


      Contrast the handling of those players with the way Ferguson sold Ronaldo or Mourinho dealt with Mata - both deals that were eagerly derided at the time. In our own history there is no greater example than Bob Paisley restructuring Shankly's successful but ageing side.


      If identifying, buying ,coaching and disposing of top level players is the difference between a good and a great club then why have we done so badly despite hiring the best coach in Europe (RB), a club legend (KD), an experienced English coach (RH) or an ambitious up and comer (BR) and how do we improve our performance in this regard?
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #1: Dec 15, 2014 12:31:21 pm
      Because as you know full well, we sell a player for a lot.
      And we replace him with sh*t that costs much less, and is paid much less.

      Suarez sold for 75m
      Balotelli bought for 15m... or loaned in a shifty, complex deal.

      End of thread.

      Masch for Poulsen
      Torres for Carroll (an absolute fraction of the wages btw)
      Reina for Mignolet/Jones
      Alonso for Aquilani then Adam then Allen/Henderson.

      Rafa wanted Jovetic to replace Alonso. Purslow agreed then welshed on the agreement. Aquilani was brought in because Purslow said he could use a credit they had against Roma. Not pure football reasons, but corporate greed ones.

      Cheap sh*t replacements = cheap sh*t teams
      Not exactly a case for Sherlock Holmes is it!
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #2: Dec 15, 2014 02:01:35 pm
      That's bollocks though isn't it?

      Although you are always trying to frame things in terms of how much FSG are spending, in the example you gave, Torres was sold and we smashed the British transfer record to buy Andy Carroll AND doubled our bid to buy Suarez.

      Looking back now, given trhe chance again we would repeate that deal a hundred times out of a hundred. But it was lucky that FSG took that decision because Kenny certainly didn't want Torres to leave. Without the striker pulling the plug we would have been lumbered with him and would not have completed the Suarez signing.

      There's no way Bob Paisley would have kept him with his busted knee - we all remember the quotes. It's not a question of money, it's how we can improve the transitions of our best players. That is the glass ceiling preventing our success.

      Next in line is Sturridge, Sterling and possibly Coutinho.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #3: Dec 15, 2014 03:01:56 pm
      Nonsense that isnt worthy of a response as usual...

      Yeah thats right. Everyone Fenway  have bought has been world class and expensive.
      And Suarez, Masch, Alonso, Torre etc have always been crap and sold for pennies.
      And being greedy wage slashing bas**rds had nothing to do with it either.
      Happy now? You have a convert. Henry is the patron saint of LFC, the new Shankly.
      Praise be to John!

      Shouldn't you be posting at Rawp.com? :roll:
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #4: Dec 15, 2014 03:28:04 pm
      All I know is I have been in a bad mood since June 2007 and it gets worse every day.
      Football is a largely emotional business and the same rules don't apply in the real world.FSG have tried to impose a new way but look what has happened we have spent a fortune on at best AVG players and just look at the team that has left since 2007.
      If we cant afford a full squad of top lads cut the squad down and fill the gaps with youth but you just cant replace quality with quantity .
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #5: Dec 15, 2014 03:44:58 pm
      Nonsense that isnt worthy of a response as usual...

      Yeah thats right. Everyone Fenway  have bought has been world class and expensive.
      And Suarez, Masch, Alonso, Torre etc have always been crap and sold for pennies.
      And being greedy wage slashing bas**rds had nothing to do with it either.
      Happy now? You have a convert. Henry is the patron saint of LFC, the new Shankly.
      Praise be to John!

      Shouldn't you be posting at Rawp.com? :roll:

      Eh?

      If we have been constantly selling our best players and going downhill since Moores was in charge then how do you explain the fact we sold Bellamy and got Torres? Sold Torres and got Suarez? Sold Carroll and got Sturridge?

      Point of the threrad is that we have handled those transitions badly.

      If it was down to Kenny we would have had Torres moping around and leading the line with his fu**ed knee. Instead FSG called his bluff and brought Suarez in to replace him.

      Really you should be writing John Henry a thankyou note - unless you think Fernando would have won us the league last year  ;)
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #6: Dec 15, 2014 04:43:08 pm
      Eh?



      Really you should be writing John Henry a thankyou note

      Obviously a Manc. And a particularly tiresome one. I think thats clear for all to see.  :roll:
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #7: Dec 15, 2014 04:50:44 pm
      Obviously a Manc. And a particularly tiresome one. I think thats clear for all to see.  :roll:

      You don't have to be a Manc to point out the bullshit you keep coming out with. You moan and moan about us constantly replacing our players with worse ones yet Torres, Suarez and Sturridge have been some of the best strikers we have ever had play for us in the club's history. Fact.

      I know you'll choose to ignore that massive flaw in your logic as you always do but thread readers can see for themselves what the reality is.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #8: Dec 15, 2014 04:59:00 pm
      You don't have to be a Manc to point out the bullshit you keep coming out with. You moan and moan about us constantly replacing our players with worse ones yet Torres, Suarez and Sturridge have been some of the best strikers we have ever had play for us in the club's history. Fact.

      I know you'll choose to ignore that massive flaw in your logic as you always do but thread readers can see for themselves what the reality is.

      You're an embarrassment to the corporation you attempt to represent.
      You claiming someone has "flaws in their logic" is like the Jimmy Savile saying someone is "a bit weird". :roll:
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #9: Dec 15, 2014 06:41:08 pm
      You're an embarrassment to the corporation you attempt to represent.
      You claiming someone has "flaws in their logic" is like the Jimmy Savile saying someone is "a bit weird". :roll:

      Sure mate, keep banging the Rogan Taylor drum. According to you we can spend hundreds of millions each transfer window and storm the league that way.  ???

      The fact you haven't addressed the glaring flaw in your logic hasn't gone unnoticed by the way. If your answers had any credibility you wouldn't mind answering some basic questions about them. Instead you hide behind the sofa.  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #10: Dec 15, 2014 07:31:34 pm
      Yeah thats it. Sell any stars, buy low wage kids and we'll walk the league.
      The magic formula. Ricky Lambert will go down in history...
      Just like Real, Bayern, Man C, Chelsea, Manc Utd.

      Do you get paid per post? Or a gross value according to the amount of idiocy? Either way, its very tiresome.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #11: Dec 15, 2014 08:12:06 pm
      Yeah thats it. Sell any stars, buy low wage kids and we'll walk the league.
      The magic formula. Ricky Lambert will go down in history...
      Just like Real, Bayern, Man C, Chelsea, Manc Utd.

      Do you get paid per post? Or a gross value according to the amount of idiocy? Either way, its very tiresome.

      Which top stars did Moores buy that were so much better than Torres, Suarez or Sturridge?

      Simple question that you shouldn't have any difficulty answering - or are you going to peg it behind the sofa again?  :couch:
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #12: Dec 15, 2014 08:22:57 pm
      Which top stars did Moores buy that were so much better than Torres, Suarez or Sturridge?

      Well, you can put Alonso into that category and Cisse.

      But, I don't think we have bought any established world class players... ever?
      lfc_ynwa
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #13: Dec 15, 2014 08:24:38 pm
      Which top stars did Moores buy that were so much better than Torres, Suarez or Sturridge?

      Simple question that you shouldn't have any difficulty answering - or are you going to peg it behind the sofa again?  :couch:

      Moored never said "I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football,", like our owners did.
      http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/145763.html#40WMx5kS3cjComBi.99

      We can't even compete with F***ing Arsenal, F***ing bollocks can we compete with any club in world football.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #14: Dec 15, 2014 08:30:49 pm
      Moored never said "I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football,", like our owners did.
      http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/145763.html#40WMx5kS3cjComBi.99

      We can't even compete with f**king Arsenal, f**king bollocks can we compete with any club in world football.

      I think he said he could put in £20 mil a season which is £20mil more than FSG intend to do.
      We can compete with anyone who is willing to spend less than us
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #15: Dec 15, 2014 08:32:25 pm
      Well, you can put Alonso into that category and Cisse.

      But, I don't think we have bought any established world class players... ever?

      Alonso was a great signing by Rafa but was a ten million pound outlay from Sociedad for the owner.

      Cisse was a big money player who proved a flop.

      I agree as a club we don't sign world stars but our recent history runs completely counter to American Plant's narrative of constantly downgrading our players since Moores sold the club.

      Don't worry though, I'm sure he will be along in a second to provide an answer to the question put to him.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #16: Dec 15, 2014 08:35:53 pm
      Moored never said "I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football,", like our owners did.
      http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/145763.html#40WMx5kS3cjComBi.99

      We can't even compete with f**king Arsenal, f**king bollocks can we compete with any club in world football.

      Arsenal have the biggest cash reserves in the league - if we are competing for a player of proven worth I think we can put in a competitive offer.

      What we can't do is splash out tens of millions on fees and wages to have players sit on the bench or in loan pools like our rivals can.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #17: Dec 15, 2014 08:40:00 pm
      I think he said he could put in £20 mil a season which is £20mil more than FSG intend to do.
      We can compete with anyone who is willing to spend less than us

      20m is the equiv of 45m or so today. Maybe even more, I cant be bothered to give an exact figure.

      Ultimately Fenway are nothing but confidence tricksters. And the modus operandi of confidence tricksters includes going online pretending to be fans and talking sh*te that bigs these crooks up.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #18: Dec 15, 2014 08:43:24 pm
      I'm sure he will be along in a second to provide an answer to the question put to him.

      Not really. You're either a Manc troll or a plant as far as I can see. No real fan could come out with the offensive drivel you write all week long. Accordingly you aren't worth the time of day.
      The facts are very clear. The only one that pretends to struggle with them is you. And you alt nics.

      PS CIsse = big money? Erm what was Rio Ferdinand?
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #19: Dec 15, 2014 08:45:04 pm
      funny when Hicks and Gillette bought Torres for a club record fee and promised to spend £30 mil they sold Bellamy,cisse and Garcia for a similar amount (£20mil for Torres)it seems the dirty tricks started 7 years ago hence my 7 year bad mood.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #20: Dec 15, 2014 08:45:44 pm
      Well, you can put Alonso into that category and Cisse.

      But, I don't think we have bought any established world class players... ever?

      Clearly you've only looked at the last 3 years then.

      Dont names like Dalglish, Torres, Mascherano and many others mean anything to you?
      Evidently not.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #21: Dec 15, 2014 08:49:58 pm
      Not really. You're either a Manc troll or a plant as far as I can see. No real fan could come out with the offensive drivel you write all week long. Accordingly you aren't worth the time of day.
      The facts are very clear. The only one that pretends to struggle with them is you. And you alt nics.

      PS CIsse = big money? Erm what was Rio Ferdinand?

      Question asked, question avoided. Colour me surprised.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #22: Dec 15, 2014 08:52:12 pm
      Clearly you've only looked at the last 3 years then.

      Dont names like Dalglish, Torres, Mascherano and many others mean anything to you?
      Evidently not.


      Barnes Beardsley Sean Dundee the list is endless.Just go on wiki and find out the facts going back as far as you want as DLS  he will know he even has his name after one
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #23: Dec 15, 2014 09:13:00 pm
      Yeah thats it. Sell any stars, buy low wage kids and we'll walk the league.
      The magic formula. Ricky Lambert will go down in history...
      Just like Real, Bayern, Man C, Chelsea, Manc Utd.

      Do you get paid per post? Or a gross value according to the amount of idiocy? Either way, its very tiresome.

      Clearly you've only looked at the last 3 years then.

      Dont names like Dalglish, Torres, Mascherano and many others mean anything to you?
      Evidently not.

      I do agree that we have sold stars and paid a lower fee and wages on replacements. Not once in the PL era have we signed world class players capable of replacing the stars we sold. In no way can we compete vs Real Madrid, Barca, Chelsea, Man City, Bayern, PSG, Arsenal, Man Utd & possibly Juventus. We have been behind them for long long time.

      For now, our only best option is to buy exceptional players and hope they'll turn into world class players, once that happens, they'll eventually go to one of the bigger clubs if we're not in CL and not competing for cups on a regular basis. So, we repeat what we've done for the last 20 years or so until we become more stable and have a mind set of a big club which we're not at the moment.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #24: Dec 15, 2014 09:21:12 pm
      Well, you can put Alonso into that category and Cisse.

      But, I don't think we have bought any established world class players... ever?

      We didn't need to buy established world class stars we had the worlds best managers.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #25: Dec 15, 2014 09:32:07 pm
      We didn't need to buy established world class stars we had the worlds best managers.

      I agree, also, you don't need to buy established world class stars to win or challenge for cups on a regular basis. If you spend wisely on exceptional players, the team will function just as well as having 1 or 2 world class players in the team. Eventually, the exceptional players will be boosted to world class status when you are challenging or winning cups regularly.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #26: Dec 15, 2014 09:39:00 pm
      I agree, also, you don't need to buy established world class stars to win or challenge for cups on a regular basis. If you spend wisely on exceptional players, the team will function just as well as having 1 or 2 world class players in the team. Eventually, the exceptional players will be boosted to world class status when you are challenging or winning cups regularly.

      just remember Wimbledon 11 players sticking together punching way way above themselves. We have no unity in our squad and we have no characters who will get stuck in and back each other up we are a soft touch
      lfc_ynwa
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #27: Dec 15, 2014 09:47:38 pm
      Arsenal have the biggest cash reserves in the league - if we are competing for a player of proven worth I think we can put in a competitive offer.

      What we can't do is splash out tens of millions on fees and wages to have players sit on the bench or in loan pools like our rivals can.

      And we just received a lump sum check of £75,000,000.

      Name me a single time when we've beat an established club to a signing of a top quality player. Just once, in FSG's history here, other than Suarez.

      They talk the talk "compete with anyone in world football" but when it comes to walking the walk, they come up short, time after time again.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #28: Dec 15, 2014 09:53:33 pm
      And we just received a lump sum check of £75,000,000.

      Name me a single time when we've beat an established club to a signing of a top quality player. Just once, in FSG's history here, other than Suarez.

      They talk the talk "compete with anyone in world football" but when it comes to walking the walk, they come up short, time after time again.

      Because they don't get football they don't get the emotion of it the importance of it. They never will.
      Lets be honest we have been in trouble since 2007 would Shankly of welcomed any of our owners since then not a chance he wouldn't have given them the time of day.
      This club is in the heart of a community and it should reflect that.Its a community of people who don't have much but they would give you the shirt of their back and they would defend their own to the bitter end.
      We used to be like that and we had players who reflected those values we still have a couple but not enough of them
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #29: Dec 15, 2014 09:55:39 pm
      And we just received a lump sum check of £75,000,000.

      Name me a single time when we've beat an established club to a signing of a top quality player. Just once, in FSG's history here, other than Suarez.

      They talk the talk "compete with anyone in world football" but when it comes to walking the walk, they come up short, time after time again.

      Spurs bid 30 million for Andy Carroll which we ended up beating.

      We learnt from that lesson to stick to a maximum value since we got our fingers badly burnt.

      It seems relatively sensible to me.

      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?
      HScRed1
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #30: Dec 15, 2014 10:11:11 pm
      Spurs bid 30 million for Andy Carroll which we ended up beating.

      We learnt from that lesson to stick to a maximum value since we got our fingers badly burnt.

      It seems relatively sensible to me.

      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?

      Is Willian worth £40M we know the sensible answer but if you turn it around and say Lovren + Allen or add any other name = Willian...........I would say yes please.

      vulcan_red
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #31: Dec 15, 2014 10:26:29 pm
      Does this thread mean 'Bad' as in the 80's use of the word or we're just not good, because I think a case can be made for both.

      Like 'that Lovren deal was BAD', which is like it was sh*t deal or that it was a real dangerous move.
      DutchLiverpoolFan
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #32: Dec 15, 2014 10:41:44 pm
      Most teams we had are mantally weak. We don't seem to cope with a big loss.
      srslfc
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #33: Dec 16, 2014 12:26:27 am
      As a club we have frequently been accused of being a "one man team" in recent years.

      As the standard of the group has been dragged upwards by individual performances you can see why club outsiders may say that. In our recent history it can be argued that all of our managers have been defined by how they have handled the transition of those players.

      Rafa sold Xabi in controversial circumstances and found it hard to recover.

      Hodge tried to reshape Reina's game completely unsuccessfully and started the process which saw him leaving the club.

      Kenny failed to bring Carra's time at the club to the end it needed to have and only managed to get rid of Torres through the good fortune of him hitting the self destruct button.

      Now Brendan has seemingly bet his cards on a waning Steven Gerrard and has scrambled to cover the loss of Suarez which appears to have come as a huge surprise to the club.


      Contrast the handling of those players with the way Ferguson sold Ronaldo or Mourinho dealt with Mata - both deals that were eagerly derided at the time. In our own history there is no greater example than Bob Paisley restructuring Shankly's successful but ageing side.


      If identifying, buying ,coaching and disposing of top level players is the difference between a good and a great club then why have we done so badly despite hiring the best coach in Europe (RB), a club legend (KD), an experienced English coach (RH) or an ambitious up and comer (BR) and how do we improve our performance in this regard?

      Very good topic and opening post Hollywood.

      It's something that has happened all too often in recent years and we always seem to be a club 'in transition' and constantly losing one or two great players and not replacing them as soon as we should have.
      lfc_ynwa
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #34: Dec 16, 2014 12:39:47 am
      Spurs bid 30 million for Andy Carroll which we ended up beating.

      We learnt from that lesson to stick to a maximum value since we got our fingers badly burnt.

      It seems relatively sensible to me.

      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?

      You're being extremely lenient by selecting Carroll there. He's far from top quality. Far far away from that, in fact.

      I'll name you four quality players we've missed out on:

      Sanchez
      William
      Costa
      Henrikh Mkhitaryan

      Then if you want to mention other players we've missed out on:

      Salah
      Siggurdson
      Demspey

      We were so close to missing out on Coutinho too, Southampton bid more than us and we were not willing to match it. It was only until Coutinho wanted to join us over Southampton did they allow him to go.


      It seems relatively sensible to me.


      If there's anything sensible about our transfer policy the last few years, I have got to be missing something. It's a total mess.


      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?

      Chelsea paid £32 million for him. I don't see where the £40 million comes from.

      Also, Chelsea didn't just beat us, Tottenham did too. He was off to have a medical for Tottenham before Chelsea signed him under their noses.

      So I repeat, the owners can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk? Can they F**k.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #35: Dec 16, 2014 01:50:00 am
      Would have been stupid for us to spend that much on 1 player seeing as we didn't have such a strong squad in the past, also being out of CL for so many years didn't help. Even having new billionaire owners when FFP was in place would be difficult, so us not being able to compete makes sense. We need financial stability and to get that stage of competing vs big clubs, you need regularly CL qualifications, then we can consider spending big on 1 player.

      There was no chance of us competing vs the big clubs in the past, but since entering CL, we was getting there.. until the summer transfer f**k up.
      lfc_ynwa
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #36: Dec 16, 2014 01:54:08 am
      Would have been stupid for us to spend that much on 1 player seeing as we didn't have such a strong squad in the past, also being out of CL for so many years didn't help. Even having new billionaire owners now would be difficult because of the FFP rules. We need financial stability and to get that, you need regularly CL qualifications, then we can consider spending big on 1 player.

      There was no chance of us competing vs the big clubs in the past, but since entering CL, we was getting there.. until the summer transfer F**k up.

      If the club couldn't afford £35-£40 million on one player after we qualified for the CL and just got £75 million for Suarez, we might as well all just go home and aim for 7th every season.

      Even Everton splashed £30 million on a player in the summer, and they didn't have CL or a large cash boost.

      Scraping the barrel very hard to find even the most pathetic excuse here.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #37: Dec 16, 2014 02:08:35 am
      If the club couldn't afford £35-£40 million on one player after we qualified for the CL and just got £75 million for Suarez, we might as well all just go home and aim for 7th every season.

      Even Everton splashed £30 million on a player in the summer, and they didn't have CL or a large cash boost.

      Scraping the barrel very hard to find even the most pathetic excuse here.

      This summer is totally different with increased revenues. I believe we could've spent 30-40m on 3 players each this summer, but that's down to the transfer committee in f**king up and buying sh*t. There is no excuse this year, we had money to spend... but we didn't spend it wisely.

      As for competing, we're not at that stage in competing with the likes of Barca, Madrid, City, Chelsea etc, they have a bigger pull on us, financial more stable and more £ incoming.
      lfc_ynwa
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #38: Dec 16, 2014 02:15:06 am
      This summer is totally different with increased revenues. I believe we could've spent 30-40m on 3 players each this summer, but that's down to the transfer committee in f**king up and buying sh*t. There is no excuse this year, we had money to spend... but we didn't spend it wisely.

      As for competing, we're not at that stage in competing with the likes of Barca, Madrid, City, Chelsea etc, they have a bigger pull on us, financial more stable and more £ incoming.

      I agree we can't compete with them four clubs.

      But if Man United can sign world class players in the summer without any European football, why can't we? Especially after we F***ing sold our only world class player.

      They signed two genuine top top players, Di Maria and Falcao. While we're signing F***ing Lambert and Balotelli.

      Ambitious clubs would be overpaying to get a replacement if necessary. As overpaying for that one top top replacement will cause less damage than not signing one and suffering for 1/2 seasons.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #39: Dec 16, 2014 02:40:51 am
      I agree we can't compete with them four clubs.

      But if Man United can sign world class players in the summer without any European football, why can't we? Especially after we f**king sold our only world class player.

      They signed two genuine top top players, Di Maria and Falcao. While we're signing f**king Lambert and Balotelli.

      Ambitious clubs would be overpaying to get a replacement if necessary. As overpaying for that one top top replacement will cause less damage than not signing one and suffering for 1/2 seasons.

      As much as I hate to say it, they have a big club mentality, we currently don't, adding to that, they have a world class manager and have been out of CL for 1 season only. They struck whilst the iron was hot and took a gamble to take them back to top 4 whilst their reputation was still in tact. Also, adding to that, they have accumulated enough money to be able to spend big on players due to their success over the last 20+ years.

      We were in the same situation in 07/08 weren't we? Big club, out of CL for a season and still with pulling power.....difference was, our cowboys had no money so it was inevitable our demise was incoming.

      Anyway, I believe we had the money this season but we have the mind set of a mid table - lower end team, this needs to change if we want to get back to where we belong.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #40: Dec 16, 2014 10:08:47 pm
      Very good topic and opening post Hollywood.

      It's something that has happened all too often in recent years and we always seem to be a club 'in transition' and constantly losing one or two great players and not replacing them as soon as we should have.

      Cheers!

      I agree it's frustrating; moreover when we do challenge we always appear to be two players short of winning the title - which in reality means signing four quality players and hoping that half of them work out.

      Suarez was a difficult transition to handle in all honesty; if he was replaceable Barca wouldn't have bothered shelling out 70 big ones for him.

      We are now in a situation where we need to find players we can build the side around for the next ten years - a Kompany, a Lampard, a Keane or an Henry.

      It's not going to be cheap but deciding how we replace Pepe, Carra, Stevie and Suarez will probably be the biggest determinant of our success.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #41: Dec 16, 2014 10:11:06 pm

      No but ever since you've been here, you've been trying to dupe people it WOULD BE!  :roll:
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #42: Dec 16, 2014 10:14:24 pm
      You're being extremely lenient by selecting Carroll there. He's far from top quality. Far far away from that, in fact.

      I'll name you four quality players we've missed out on:

      Sanchez
      William
      Costa
      Henrikh Mkhitaryan

      Then if you want to mention other players we've missed out on:

      Salah
      Siggurdson
      Demspey

      We were so close to missing out on Coutinho too, Southampton bid more than us and we were not willing to match it. It was only until Coutinho wanted to join us over Southampton did they allow him to go.

      If there's anything sensible about our transfer policy the last few years, I have got to be missing something. It's a total mess.

      Chelsea paid £32 million for him. I don't see where the £40 million comes from.

      Also, Chelsea didn't just beat us, Tottenham did too. He was off to have a medical for Tottenham before Chelsea signed him under their noses.

      So I repeat, the owners can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk? Can they f**k.

      Whether he ended up being top quality or not we beat off another team to break the British transfer record to land him. Chelsea paid more money for Torres and it can hardly be said he proved himself to be top quality either.

      Yes Chelsea paid 32 for Willian but the 40 I quoted was an estimate of how much it would have cost us to outbid them since they could have gone higher than 32 and we would have to persuade him to join us instead. Is he worth that much money to us? I would say not.

      In the end, it's true that Carroll plus Allen might be worth a Willian but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. If we knew that a player's value would double are signing for us then paying a hundred million for them wouldn't be a problem.

      The trick is knowing that in advance.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #43: Dec 16, 2014 10:55:23 pm
      Whether he ended up being top quality or not we beat off another team to break the British transfer record to land him. Chelsea paid more money for Torres and it can hardly be said he proved himself to be top quality either.


      Technically we didn't pay anything for Carroll, it was basically a case of players swapping. 2 came in, 2 went out, we spent nothing in that window.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #44: Dec 17, 2014 12:28:08 am
      Technically we didn't pay anything for Carroll, it was basically a case of players swapping. 2 came in, 2 went out, we spent nothing in that window.

      It's a distinction without a difference.
      Fowlersleftpeg
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #45: Dec 17, 2014 09:26:06 am
      I agree we can't compete with them four clubs.

      But if Man United can sign world class players in the summer without any European football, why can't we? Especially after we f**king sold our only world class player.

      They signed two genuine top top players, Di Maria and Falcao. While we're signing f**king Lambert and Balotelli.

      Ambitious clubs would be overpaying to get a replacement if necessary. As overpaying for that one top top replacement will cause less damage than not signing one and suffering for 1/2 seasons.

      Kuper, Tomkins and the rest of the boys have 'proved' that the highest wage bill consistently wins championships. Liverpool will simply never be able to match what Chelsea and City are able to do regardless of FFP (loopholes etc, control of the market etc.). So do we then 'dangerously' spend in the hopes of winning a title and a FA Cup or so once every ten years? In other words: are we happy with being another Arsenal? Innovation/experimentation has become the name of the game, no?

      I'm certainly not advocating 'buying on the cheap' by the way, merely addressing another avenue.


      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #46: Dec 17, 2014 01:48:07 pm
      We built a top level team, and asset stripped it between 2009 and today.
      And now we are sh*te.
      THats not exactly "player transition".

      If I robbed someone's savings, they'd hardly be experiencing a "transition".
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #47: Dec 17, 2014 02:02:01 pm
      We built a top level team, and asset stripped it between 2009 and today.
      And now we are sh*te.
      THats not exactly "player transition".

      If I robbed someone's savings, they'd hardly be experiencing a "transition".

      Haha funny at first, then sad because it's true.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #48: Dec 17, 2014 02:14:11 pm
      We built a top level team, and asset stripped it between 2009 and today.
      And now we are sh*te.
      THats not exactly "player transition".

      If I robbed someone's savings, they'd hardly be experiencing a "transition".

      If that's true how did we end up with the most expensive players we have ever had at the club and played some of our best football ever narrowly missing out on the title a few months ago?
      JustMingle
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #49: Dec 17, 2014 02:20:36 pm
      Spurs bid 30 million for Andy Carroll which we ended up beating.
      We learnt from that lesson to stick to a maximum value since we got our fingers badly burnt.

      It seems relatively sensible to me.

      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?

      got badly burned by the Carroll transfer...

      thats why i still resent him as a player...

      EVERY transfer since, in my opinion, has been marked up according to that template... FSG are determined not to be done over again!

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #50: Dec 17, 2014 02:24:32 pm
      got badly burned by the Carroll transfer...

      thats why i still resent him as a player...

      EVERY transfer since, in my opinion, has been marked up according to that template... FSG are determined not to be done over again!

      Mostly agree with this however I feel it's unfair to blame the player.

      He was quite happy being the local hero at Newcastle and didn't want to leave. He wasn't responsible for his huge fee that their owners couldn't resist.

      And why Kenny wanted to spend all that money on someone who plainly didn't want to be here is beyond me - he must have completely taken leave of his senses - which comes back to the original point about us handling transitions badly.
      JustMingle
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #51: Dec 17, 2014 02:35:01 pm
      Mostly agree with this however I feel it's unfair to blame the player.

      He was quite happy being the local hero at Newcastle and didn't want to leave. He wasn't responsible for his huge fee that their owners couldn't resist.

      And why Kenny wanted to spend all that money on someone who plainly didn't want to be here is beyond me - he must have completely taken leave of his senses - which comes back to the original point about us handling transitions badly.

      Oh don’t get me wrong... it’s a total irrational resentment... probably because im from west Ham and i get the piss ripped out me whenever he scores for the irons...  ;)

      Also on this point, didn’t Kenny get the nod from Shearer to sign Carroll?
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #52: Dec 17, 2014 02:38:54 pm
      got badly burned by the Carroll transfer...

      thats why i still resent him as a player...

      EVERY transfer since, in my opinion, has been marked up according to that template... FSG are determined not to be done over again!

      Mostly agree with this however I feel it's unfair to blame the player.

      He was quite happy being the local hero at Newcastle and didn't want to leave. He wasn't responsible for his huge fee that their owners couldn't resist.

      And why Kenny wanted to spend all that money on someone who plainly didn't want to be here is beyond me - he must have completely taken leave of his senses - which comes back to the original point about us handling transitions badly.

      I absolutely agree. I could see what Dalglish wanted to do and on paper, it looked really good. Suarez playing off Carroll and in the summer, Downing, Henderson and Adam (Scottish Alonso) to compliment Carroll. At least Dalglish's big transfers had connection to how he wanted to play as well as covering the key areas that needed to be covered, where as this summer's big spending seems to be the total opposite.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #53: Dec 17, 2014 02:50:51 pm
      Oh don’t get me wrong... it’s a total irrational resentment... probably because im from west Ham and i get the piss ripped out me whenever he scores for the irons...  ;)

      Also on this point, didn’t Kenny get the nod from Shearer to sign Carroll?

      Well, given how Shearer did in his management career he definitely took leave of his senses if he listened.

      have you heard his "analysis" on match of the day? It's like listening to a five year old. He basically just goives a commentary of what's going on:

      "He did well to beat his man there. Great shot. He just missed.Should've scored that one."

      Recently he's taken to holding a pen whilst he's talking to look a bit more intellectual.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #54: Dec 17, 2014 02:55:27 pm
      I think we let these players off too easily how many come here and go into semi retirement having signed the big contract which could net them anything upto £15mil or more.
      We need hungry players who want success not a big bank balance and maybe in the modern game they aren't available anymore.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #55: Dec 17, 2014 03:11:22 pm
      I think we let these players off too easily how many come here and go into semi retirement having signed the big contract which could net them anything upto £15mil or more.
      We need hungry players who want success not a big bank balance and maybe in the modern game they aren't available anymore.

      You mean, exceptional players that would improve our team but not demand world class fee and wages? If so, I absolutely agree. As much as I love watching world class players play, I would prefer us to buy the ones below and make them into world class players at the moment. I just feel, at this time, 2-3 hungry exceptional players would be more beneficial to the team than 1 world class player.

      When we become more established and stable, then we should look into buying at least, 1 world class player  each summer :)
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #56: Dec 17, 2014 05:49:13 pm

      Also on this point, didn’t Kenny get the nod from Shearer to sign Carroll?


      Quality goal scorer but his knowledge of the game and the ability of players is completely non-existent, taking advice from him would be like trying to use a chocolate teapot.

      Flying Squirrel 39
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #57: Dec 19, 2014 09:51:33 pm
      You mean, exceptional players that would improve our team but not demand world class fee and wages? If so, I absolutely agree. As much as I love watching world class players play, I would prefer us to buy the ones below and make them into world class players at the moment. I just feel, at this time, 2-3 hungry exceptional players would be more beneficial to the team than 1 world class player.

      When we become more established and stable, then we should look into buying at least, 1 world class player  each summer :)

      Agree with the first.Buying 1 WC player each summer?I hope you´re not serious,the day I see this club turn into a Real Madrid circus is the day I give up football.Sorry if you´re joking,I just can´t stand the thought of us turning into a Real Madrid,Man City,PSG type club.Total anti-football institutions.
      stuey
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #58: Dec 19, 2014 10:28:53 pm
      And we just received a lump sum check of £75,000,000.

      Name me a single time when we've beat an established club to a signing of a top quality player. Just once, in FSG's history here, other than Suarez.

      They talk the talk "compete with anyone in world football" but when it comes to walking the walk, they come up short, time after time again.

      Not to the usual suspects who start negative threads implying the fault is anyone's but NESV, FSG or JWH.
      I
      Flying Squirrel 39
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #59: Dec 19, 2014 11:19:21 pm
      What I focus on about this subject is why we have not been able to reproduce the form of players in their past club to our own,when everything indicated they should have flourished.Carroll,Adam,Downing,Henderson,Lovren,Lallana,Lambert,Markovic,Moreno,Can...How did these players go from being solid performers at their clubs,to coming to Anfield and hopelessly devaluating their market price?

      Now we have seen improvement from some of these players,but why only now?Why did it take Henderson 2 years to be a 6/10 player?What happened to "stonewall" Lovren?Why are we only now seeing glimpses of Lallana,Markovic and Can...in December?

      I think it is down to 3 basic things.The state of the system the player enters,the state of the individual player,and the manipulation of that system.Basically,the form of the squad players,the form of the new player,and the strategy (formation,lineup...).

      I 90% believe if we had put Rickie Lambert in last years Liverpool side we could have gotten usual goal scoring form from him,or near.Same goes for Carroll.Lallana would have had a blast,as Markovic.Look at the state of the system now...well you could put Falcao himself up there as our 9 and he would struggle.Given,last year´s system was set up for speed,but the consistency the players were showing and the flexibility in formations used,I think we could have set up to play for a slow 9 even.I might be wrong though,which brings me to point 2.Why buy a 9 if he won´t fit our system?How did we plan to setup Suarez with Carroll,Lambert with Sturridge (or alone as a 9)?

      Buying a proven 2 digit goal scorer in Rickie,a natural 9,then putting an experiment in his place for 10 games is as clear an example of not handling the system well.Then putting that natural 9 into a frail,disjointed system lacking confidence is an example of number 1 (the Falcao example).This applies to other players that cannot be expected to replicate their best form when dependent on other players´ form.This, for me,does not apply for certain positions.A striker can never excel in a poor team,but a goalie or CB always has to answer,regardless of the performance of the other 10 players (remember Hennesey and Al-Habsi(who I always said we should have bought)flying to excellent season performances in teams that were ultimately relegated,getting machine-gun blasted by the combined strikeforce of the league).

      That leaves us with number 2.What´s going on with Mignolet?What happened to last year´s Gerrard?Did someone body-snatch Lovren?Lallana,Can,Markovic,Moreno,Coutinho,Sterling,all new and old players who are if anything only picking up now,after half a season.This only leaves us with a psychological angle to it.You don´t lose it from one season to the next,you don´t go from being a starter in your club to warming the bench.Something is going on,inside...

      So,in conclusion,we have to secure a solid foundation to ensure a smooth running system is in place,which means altering it (if it´s already working) with the less shock possible (as opposed to what Tottenham and we did,selling one player and buying 8).This in order to ensure harmony when introducing a new element,even if it´s not a like-for-like replacement.This can only be done with the correct handling of the system.If it ain´t broke don´t fix it,and if you need or want to change something,change small and slow (1,2,3 players,and not at once). This will hopefully aid with the state of the player coming in,a smooth transition.Again,had most of these players come into last year´s side at that moment in time,they would have most probably blended in nicely (again,introducing them gently and in the least possible numbers).

      This does not account for cases such as Lovren´s I think (or Mignolet),although it can´t help to be surrounded by lack of confidence,but I think the lack of a smooth effective transition,for the most part/players,is down to not having a solid running system in place which is down to poor handling of the system.

      Thanks for listening  ;)
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #60: Dec 20, 2014 01:12:07 am
      Spurs bid 30 million for Andy Carroll which we ended up beating.

      We learnt from that lesson to stick to a maximum value since we got our fingers badly burnt.

      It seems relatively sensible to me.

      Brendan badly wanted Willian but would it really have been worth blowing 40 million on him?

      The difference with Willian was that he was an already established player with extensive Champions League experience behind him. Carroll had half a season behind him. Let's consider that for a moment. We spent £50 million on a player who had spent less than six months in top flight football. It was never the fee that was the problem, it was the decision making behind it. FSG would be completely correct in not going down the route of a high transfer fee for an unproven player again, it's what any sensible owner would do but there is no excuse not to spend big on established, experienced players where the money is available. With that decision FSG threw the baby out with the bath water.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #61: Dec 20, 2014 10:33:30 am
      No mate Chelsea spent 50 million on Torres. We spent 35 million on Carroll.

      Since then we have made big money bids for Mkhitaryan, Willian and Sanchez so I don't think they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater - more a case of refusing to go above a value we have set for a player.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #62: Dec 20, 2014 11:52:53 am
      No mate Chelsea spent 50 million on Torres. We spent 35 million on Carroll.

      Since then we have made big money bids for Mkhitaryan, Willian and Sanchez so I don't think they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater - more a case of refusing to go above a value we have set for a player.

      You're right, it was £35 million. You're wrong, it's got nothing to do with over paying for a player. The Carroll bid was publicly explained by Henry. He said that the Torres sale would always be Carroll's fee plus £15 million and they kept Chelsea waiting while we negotiated with Newcastle. So we never over paid for a player because that player's fee was always built in to the sale of another. That was very good business practice.

      You asked if Willian was worth £40 million. A player's value for money is determined by what they help us achieve. Would Willian be worth £40 million if we'd progressed from the Champions League group stages this year? Would Willian be worth £40 million if he'd been the difference between our being runners up and winning the title? Would Suarez had stayed, or Sanchez had joined because they saw we where showing ambition in the market, if we'd signed Willian? It's easy to sit there and point to him at Chelsea and judge he's not worth £40 million, not so easy to judge what effect he may have had on us.

      It's not just loosing out on Willian either. I could accept your argument but for the fact that we refused to 'over pay' for Willian and so ended up with Aspas. I'm sorry but if you're coming up with a short list of players, how the hell do you have Willian and Aspas on the same list? The question I'm posing here is do we take any of that in to account in our evaluations of players because from the outside looking in, it would appear not.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #63: Dec 20, 2014 06:41:32 pm
      You're right, it was £35 million. You're wrong, it's got nothing to do with over paying for a player. The Carroll bid was publicly explained by Henry. He said that the Torres sale would always be Carroll's fee plus £15 million and they kept Chelsea waiting while we negotiated with Newcastle. So we never over paid for a player because that player's fee was always built in to the sale of another. That was very good business practice.

      You asked if Willian was worth £40 million. A player's value for money is determined by what they help us achieve. Would Willian be worth £40 million if we'd progressed from the Champions League group stages this year? Would Willian be worth £40 million if he'd been the difference between our being runners up and winning the title? Would Suarez had stayed, or Sanchez had joined because they saw we where showing ambition in the market, if we'd signed Willian? It's easy to sit there and point to him at Chelsea and judge he's not worth £40 million, not so easy to judge what effect he may have had on us.

      It's not just loosing out on Willian either. I could accept your argument but for the fact that we refused to 'over pay' for Willian and so ended up with Aspas. I'm sorry but if you're coming up with a short list of players, how the hell do you have Willian and Aspas on the same list? The question I'm posing here is do we take any of that in to account in our evaluations of players because from the outside looking in, it would appear not.

      But the point about the Carroll deal was that we beat off interest from Spurs (who bid 30 million) to land him - breaking the British transfer record on the way.

      In answer to your question about Willian, we achieved Champion's League qualification without him so do you think it would have been worth spending the 40 million? Since he's hardly pulling up trees at Chelsea I'm not so sure. I certainly think Origi, Markovic and Can will add more to the squad than Willian for a similar outlay.

      Willian and Aspas are on the same list for the same reason; both of them seemed to offer "value" because of teh circumstances of their contracts with their clubs. Aspas didn't work out but he had very good figures playing in La Liga and appeared to have the right attributes in that league. We bought Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge on the same basis but even the best managers  have a 50% hit rate in the success of their transfers.

      As I posted in the other thread we need to find a better way of ensuring that the transfers we bring in will perform well here. Apart from throwing more money at the problem few people have got any ideas about how to achieve that.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #64: Dec 20, 2014 07:23:59 pm
      But the point about the Carroll deal was that we beat off interest from Spurs (who bid 30 million) to land him - breaking the British transfer record on the way.

      In answer to your question about Willian, we achieved Champion's League qualification without him so do you think it would have been worth spending the 40 million? Since he's hardly pulling up trees at Chelsea I'm not so sure. I certainly think Origi, Markovic and Can will add more to the squad than Willian for a similar outlay.

      Willian and Aspas are on the same list for the same reason; both of them seemed to offer "value" because of teh circumstances of their contracts with their clubs. Aspas didn't work out but he had very good figures playing in La Liga and appeared to have the right attributes in that league. We bought Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge on the same basis but even the best managers  have a 50% hit rate in the success of their transfers.

      As I posted in the other thread we need to find a better way of ensuring that the transfers we bring in will perform well here. Apart from throwing more money at the problem few people have got any ideas about how to achieve that.

      No mate, you're applying hindsight. You're saying he wouldn't have been worth us spending £40 million based upon what he's done for Chelsea so far but we prior to him arriving in England, we could only judge his potential fee based upon what he'd done abroad and on the basis of that, and given the way the market is, he probably was worth £40 million. The fact that where he to be playing for us the way he's played for the chavs, he'd be a £40 million flop is irrelevant from the perspective of pre-purchase.

      I don't disagree with your general point of not over spending above your valuation, I'm simply questioning how FSG arrive at those valuations in the first place because what they seem to consider a player's value sometimes appears to be less than what others do. My issue isn't with our refusal to pay more than our valuation, my main concern is with our plan Bs which are so far apart from our plan As it makes you wonder if the same person is making them.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #65: Dec 20, 2014 07:41:16 pm
      No mate, you're applying hindsight. You're saying he wouldn't have been worth us spending £40 million based upon what he's done for Chelsea so far but we prior to him arriving in England, we could only judge his potential fee based upon what he'd done abroad and on the basis of that, and given the way the market is, he probably was worth £40 million. The fact that where he to be playing for us the way he's played for the chavs, he'd be a £40 million flop is irrelevant from the perspective of pre-purchase.

      I don't disagree with your general point of not over spending above your valuation, I'm simply questioning how FSG arrive at those valuations in the first place because what they seem to consider a player's value sometimes appears to be less than what others do. My issue isn't with our refusal to pay more than our valuation, my main concern is with our plan Bs which are so far apart from our plan As it makes you wonder if the same person is making them.

      Actually I think we're saying the same thing.

      As i posted in the other thread, we would be happy to pay 40 million pounds for a player if we knew his value was going to double whilst he was with us.

      The question is then how we identify those players?

      The difference between us and the petrodollar clubs is that they are rich enough not to have to worry too much about losing money on the contracts - hence Chelsea can afford to send Torres off to Milan and pay the last two years of his wages.

      For a 40 million pound purchase to make sense to us though we need that player to come in and deliver 40 million pounds worth of value - ie we have to stick to a maximum perceived judgement of what the player ios actually to worth to us rather than how much he is going for on the market.

      Would Willian have been worth 40 million? As you say perhaps he would - maybe we would have won the league, got through to the CL final this year and won a couple of domestic cups. But in all likelihood, we would have improved our play a little, still screwed up against Chelsea and Palace and failed to qualify for the last 16 in Europe - inwhich case he wouldn't have been worth the fee.

      Question is how do we best identify what the team needs to improve then how to we identify the players that will fill that gap?
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #66: Dec 20, 2014 10:26:14 pm
      You mention petro-chemical clubs but City is an anomaly for the most part. If you look at the average signing by Chelsea, they aren't actually making anywhere near the amount of big money signings as people tend to think they are. What is interesting is the level of success they have in the bottom end of the market. Cech for £9 million has been a far more successful signing than Mingnolet for £9 million. Roben at £12 million was better than Aquilani at £17 million. In order to compete with Chelsea we don't necessarily need more money to spend, we simply need better eyes for talent.
      federer
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #67: Dec 20, 2014 10:36:52 pm
      It has nothing to do with "player transitions."  It has to do with 90% of the players we buy being absolute sh*te.

      Funny how Suarez didn't need time to "settle in" or to "transition."  Why?  because he's a top class player and you can put him in any league in the world and he will hit the ground running.

      Coutinho didn't need time to settle in.  Nor did Sturridge.  why?  because they're top players.

      Even looking around at other clubs.  Sanchez hasn't needed time to "settle in" or "transition."  Nor has Costa.  Nor did Aguero.  Nor did Silva.  And so on and so f**king forth.  since someone will blame that on the sugar daddy club owners, take someone like Cabaye at Newcastle---he didn't need time to settle in either.  Because he was a top player.  (and bought for a bag of chips mind.  imagine that Borini cost us twice as much as Cabaye cost Newcastle.)

      So.  Stop buying sh*te and you won't need to transition players.  Buy sh*te from mid-table clubs and you know exactly what will happen.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #68: Dec 20, 2014 10:39:35 pm
      You mention petro-chemical clubs but City is an anomaly for the most part. If you look at the average signing by Chelsea, they aren't actually making anywhere near the amount of big money signings as people tend to think they are. What is interesting is the level of success they have in the bottom end of the market. Cech for £9 million has been a far more successful signing than Mingnolet for £9 million. Roben at £12 million was better than Aquilani at £17 million. In order to compete with Chelsea we don't necessarily need more money to spend, we simply need better eyes for talent.

      Yep, again we are saying the same thing - it's about picking the right player not spending the most money.

      Question is : how do we learn to pick the right players?
      rossyred
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #69: Dec 20, 2014 10:41:56 pm
      Yep, again we are saying the same thing - it's about picking the right player not spending the most money.

      Question is : how do we learn to pick the right players?

      Get a good scouting system would help
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #70: Dec 20, 2014 10:59:27 pm
      It has nothing to do with "player transitions."  It has to do with 90% of the players we buy being absolute sh*te.

      Funny how Suarez didn't need time to "settle in" or to "transition."  Why?  because he's a top class player and you can put him in any league in the world and he will hit the ground running.

      Coutinho didn't need time to settle in.  Nor did Sturridge.  why?  because they're top players.

      Even looking around at other clubs.  Sanchez hasn't needed time to "settle in" or "transition."  Nor has Costa.  Nor did Aguero.  Nor did Silva.  And so on and so f**king forth.  since someone will blame that on the sugar daddy club owners, take someone like Cabaye at Newcastle---he didn't need time to settle in either.  Because he was a top player.  (and bought for a bag of chips mind.  imagine that Borini cost us twice as much as Cabaye cost Newcastle.)

      So.  Stop buying sh*te and you won't need to transition players.  Buy sh*te from mid-table clubs and you know exactly what will happen.

      I think what you mean by "top" players are the ones that you happen to rate - in general, the ones that even non football fans know because they are in the papers all the time as established stars. But established stars flop too.

      Shevchenko not a "top" player? Torres? Veron? Forlan?

      Of the players you mentioned Suarez took two years to hit his best form, Sanchez flopped at Barca which is why they sold him.

      Costa, Aguero and Silva hit the ground running after their recent transfers, Mata, Balotelli and Ozil haven't - are they not "top" players either?

      Unless we have more money than everybody else our plan cannot be to just buy more top stars than City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal. Not only can we not afford it but that has NEVER been the way this club has operated.

      So the question remains how do we identify players that will provide top quality and hit the ground running before they are established stars?

      Didn't even bring Diame into the equation.
      federer
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #71: Dec 20, 2014 11:02:32 pm
      If you look at the average signing by Chelsea, they aren't actually making anywhere near the amount of big money signings as people tend to think they are. What is interesting is the level of success they have in the bottom end of the market. Cech for £9 million has been a far more successful signing than Mingnolet for £9 million. Roben at £12 million was better than Aquilani at £17 million. In order to compete with Chelsea we don't necessarily need more money to spend, we simply need better eyes for talent.

      This is spot on actually.  Not just Cech either.  Take a look at these, just in their defence alone:

      Cahill - £7m
      Azpilicueta - £7m
      Courtois - £6m
      Ivanovic - £9m

      Compare and contrast to some of ours:

      Lovren - £20m
      Johnson - £18m
      Mignolet - £9m
      Moreno - £12m
      Sakho - £15m


      I still can't believe they bought Cech AND Courtois for £15m and we paid nearly £10m just for Simon "kick it into the stands" Mignolet.

      it really isn't always about how much money you've got; it's about how you spend it.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #72: Dec 20, 2014 11:04:37 pm
      Yep, again we are saying the same thing - it's about picking the right player not spending the most money.

      Question is : how do we learn to pick the right players?

      Partly what Rossy says. Clearly the men behind Chelsea's eye for talent are better than the men behind ours over the last ten years. It's not an easy question to answer because any fool looking at Roben knew he was a highly talented player so why did we not even attempt to sign him? Then there's the original question I posed about how FSG come to their valuations. How was a player who'd played half a season in the Premier League worth £35 million but a player who had extensive Champions League experience only worth £40 million? I've been calling for a review of our transfer policy for some time. The club needs to sit down before next Summer and investigate why the club is persistently getting it wrong in the transfer market. I'd rather us go in to next season having not signed anyone than wasted another £125 million on players that don't offer enough to move us forward. We have to start getting this right before its too late.
      federer
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #73: Dec 20, 2014 11:07:31 pm
      Costa, Aguero and Silva hit the ground running after their recent transfers, Mata, Balotelli and Ozil haven't - are they not "top" players either?

      um Mata did hit the ground running at Chelsea.  No, Balotelli isn't a top player.  And no, Ozil is not in the same echelon as Suarez/Sanchez etc.

      Anyway I don't disagree with you that not ALL top players are ready to go right away; that's definitely not the case.  But most of them are.  Whereas it's the exact inverse for mid-table players; most of them are NOT ready to go right away---only a few are.  I'd say 9 out of 10 of the top players in the world would hit the ground running, whereas maybe 3 out of 10 of your average mid-table rubbish would be ready to go.

      That's because no matter what, the top players have a skillset they can fall back on.  Suarez wasn't exactly a speed demon, and yet he didn't have any problems with the English game, why?  because he was incredibly skilled with the ball and even if he couldn't outrun a defender, he could pull some trick to get buy him with ease.  If you're a midtable player and you have the pressure of being at a big club, everything is going faster and you're suddenly expected to win, well you won't have the same skills as a Suarez or a Sanchez to bail you out when things don't go well.

      that's the difference in my opinion.

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #74: Dec 20, 2014 11:18:46 pm
      Get a good scouting system would help

      Well we tried to bring in some of the best in the business from Man City  but it's not worked out so far. We tried to buck the system by using innovative stats technique and that failed. We tried to give money to a club legend in Kenny to help decide on players that would fit the club and that failed.

      So far the most successful recent signings that have accrued the most value for the club have been Alonso (Rafa signing), Masch (Rafa signing), Torres (Rafa signing), Suarez (virtual Rafa signing), Sterling (Rafa signing) Coutinho (recommended to the club by Rafa) and Sturridge (sold to us by Rafa). Our second tier, value for money, signings have been Pepe, Skrtel, Agger and Lucas - all signed by Rafa.

      Picking the right players on a (comparatively) limited budget, improving them and selling them on to buy the next level of player is therefore possible - even turning 75% of our major signings into successes rather than just 50% would transform the fortunes of the club.

      The question is how to achieve that when everybody is looking to do the same thing.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #75: Dec 21, 2014 12:16:18 am
      Surely the most ridiculous thread in the recent history of the forums.

      Reminds me of this:-

      Dear Viz
      I recently sold my son in law's 2007 Bentley for 70k and replaced it with 4 Austin Allegros from 1978 that  were very cheap according to the algorithm I wrote.  I then trousered the difference in prices to put down a deposit on a nice yacht.  My son in law has been very ungracious in my efforts to help him, and is obsessed with the fact that the Allegro was slightly less expensive than the Bentley. Sadly, he has no appreciation of the time I had to spend sourcing such a fine example of an Allegro.
      I admit that it may be some time before each Allegro is running as smoothly as I like. But unfortunately my son in law has no sense of patience. And he is obsessed with me "buying a big name". Any ideas where I am going wrong?
      Yours Sincerely
      Smart Alec Plant from Boston
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #76: Dec 21, 2014 07:36:16 pm
      All the talk before todays match was about Sanchez this and Sanchez that.

      Brendan was asked about it in the presser. Sky ran an advert about how missing out on Sanchez would come back to haunt us.

      Yet, watching today's match you would have thought that Markovic was the big money signing and Sanchez the one with potential.

      I'm strugging to recall what Sanchez actually did in today's game apart from fall over to win the free kick.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #77: Dec 21, 2014 08:31:48 pm
      All the talk before todays match was about Sanchez this and Sanchez that.

      Brendan was asked about it in the presser. Sky ran an advert about how missing out on Sanchez would come back to haunt us.

      Yet, watching today's match you would have thought that Markovic was the big money signing and Sanchez the one with potential.

      I'm strugging to recall what Sanchez actually did in today's game apart from fall over to win the free kick.

      True but only insofar as today's game. Over the course of the season, especially the season so far, we could have done with those nine goals he's scored so far. Like I've been saying all season, our problems never stemmed from who we signed, but from whom we didn't sign.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #78: Jan 01, 2015 10:25:28 pm
      If it's true that Gerrard is off at the end of the season he should be dropped as a regular starter.

      There's absolutely no point crowbar ring him in and then having to learn to play without him next season all over again.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #79: Jan 01, 2015 10:29:01 pm
      If it's true that Gerrard is off at the end of the season he should be dropped as a regular starter.

      There's absolutely no point crowbar ring him in and then having to learn to play without him next season all over again.

      Your first ever post that everyone will agree with! How does that feel?   >:D
      MIRO
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #80: Jan 01, 2015 10:29:26 pm
      How did the afternoon go at the Arndale  HB ?
      srslfc
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #81: Jan 01, 2015 10:35:47 pm
      If it's true that Gerrard is off at the end of the season he should be dropped as a regular starter.

      There's absolutely no point crowbar ring him in and then having to learn to play without him next season all over again.

      Totally agree.

      I have a feeling it won't happen though.

      The boss always seems a bit star struck by Stevie.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #82: Jan 01, 2015 10:42:35 pm
      Your first ever post that everyone will agree with! How does that feel?   >:D

      Not sure about that - there are still plenty of the "Stevie is a LEGE" crowd who disagree.

      How did the afternoon go at the Arndale  HB ?

      What are you blathering about now?

      The only thing I'm sure about is that, as usual, it has nothing to do with the thread title.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #83: Jan 01, 2015 10:46:20 pm
      Not sure about that - there are still plenty of the "Stevie is a LEGE" crowd who disagree.


      You can't argue with the fact he is Legend, the best ever in my books, but his time has come to move over for the next legend.
      MIRO
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #84: Jan 01, 2015 10:47:18 pm

      What are you blathering about now?

      The only thing I'm sure about is that, as usual, it has nothing to do with the thread title.

      Facht .

      1 You only come out at night.

      2 You never follow the match thread.

      3 Your taste in clothes leaves much to be desired if thats where you shop.



      Keep Up  or  Off You F**k  to coin a phrase.

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #85: Jan 01, 2015 10:51:05 pm
      Facht .

      1 You only come out at night.

      2 You never follow the match thread.

      3 Your taste in clothes leaves much to be desired if thats where you shop.



      Keep Up  or  Off You F**k  to coin a phrase.

      Eh?

      I really hope the mods do something about you jamming threads with this pointless bollocks.

      Your trolling is not only boring but doesn't even make sense.
      MIRO
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #86: Jan 01, 2015 11:08:29 pm
      Eh?

      I really hope the mods do something about you jamming threads with this pointless bollocks.

      Your trolling is not only boring but doesn't even make sense.

      It makes sense to most H.B. ......
      srslfc
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #87: Jan 01, 2015 11:17:49 pm
      It makes sense to most H.B. ......

      To be fair Skip many people avoid the match thread for various reasons.

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #88: Jan 01, 2015 11:27:23 pm
      I doubt it.

      in answer to your "points":

      1. I tend to work during the day so that's why I login when I've finished at night - what that has to do with the thread title I don't know.

      2. I think I've posted in most match threads this season so your "fact" is wrong - if I'm at the game, watching in a pub or round at my mates house I don't - what that has to do with the thread title I don't know.

      3. You asked me how the Arndale was because I have "terrible taste in clothes if I shop there" - doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with the thread title.


      Most people come on here to discuss matters pertaining to the football not to decipher your bizarre and irrelevant posts.

      Now go bore someone else.
      MIRO
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #89: Jan 01, 2015 11:54:23 pm
      To be fair Skip many people avoid the match thread for various reasons.



      Not surprised on current form.

      ( PS 
      Looks like HB spent the last hour obsessively trying to find the post. 
      He found it.
      He gets the gold star for his exercise book.
      Amazing what you can get people to do on a winters evening )
      redkenny
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      Re: Why are we so bad at handling player transitions?
      Reply #90: Jan 02, 2015 12:12:29 am
      I think the opening post to this thread is one of the most important and valuable questions that can be asked - not only for a football club, but for anything or anyone who wants to continue and sustain success.

      Well in for bringing it up, HB.

      Quote
      If identifying, buying ,coaching and disposing of top level players is the difference between a good and a great club then why have we done so badly despite hiring the best coach in Europe (RB), a club legend (KD), an experienced English coach (RH) or an ambitious up and comer (BR) and how do we improve our performance in this regard?

      I think this answers the question in part. It goes to show that it's not entirely down to the manager to ensure a smooth transition. You already know that, though.

      For me, the scouting system needs to be of an extremely high standard. I don't mean having the best software that produces top analysis about player stats and all that business. That can help of course, but it's not the vital ingredient. You need a big team of people that you can trust with your life. You need that team of scouts to have a passion about their job and have a knack for being really inquisitive. If you've only got a handful of people who are giving one hundred percent in that team, you're going to miss out on vital replacements and players with honesty, quality and ability to fit in.

      I firmly believe that's what the difference was a few decades ago when Paisley was about.

      All the rest such as agent fees and financial backing for the manager are things that can be worked around. It's all about preparation and homework, for me.

       

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