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      From Houlding To Henry

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      dunlop liddell shankly
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      From Houlding To Henry
      Jan 19, 2015 11:39:02 pm
      Not so long ago I wrote a piece called "From Houlding To Hicks" pleading with fans to not give our, then, owners any more of your money. It's here should you wish to read it http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,31412.msg711677.html#msg711677. But this one isn't in that vein, more of a look of how John W Henry, Tom Werner and whoever else is involved with FSG are doing their business.

      123 years ago the dream started. John Houlding would form Liverpool Football Club, a football club who would go on to become the most successful club in England, the biggest club in the world and the envy of supporters of any football fan. Not only did we have world class players and an incomparable fanbase, we also had the right people owning the club.

      People who had the club's intentions right at their heart were at the helm. John Houlding passed the reigns onto his own son, William, it eventually changed hands and was run by our very first manager, Irish businessman, John McKenna. The Williams family, William McConnell who was one of the few men to be adored in and out of the House of Commons. The wonderful John Smith. Even David Moores, who cops a lot a stick on this forum, loved Liverpool Football Club. None of them would willingly put Liverpool in danger (although that assumption of Moores is questionable)

      Then we had the era of Hicks and Gillett. The era that put the future of this great club in danger. Would we actually have a club tomorrow? It's a time in our history that is dark but one we can't ignore. And truth be told, shouldn't ignore. Because what it did, was bring Liverpool fans together and closer. It made the bond between fellow Reds even stronger. We can all be as one when everything is going well but when times are hard, like they were for those three and a bit years, is when you see what your fans are really made of. There were many directions fans wanted us to go in but there was one common goal, getting Tom Hicks and George Gillett away from our club. We did that.

      Helped in our cause by John W Henry and FSG/NESV. They took the club over, stabilised us financially and, eventually, got the ball officially moving in terms of an increased capacity at Anfield. Some may not like them because they're not throwing billions of pounds into the transfer kitty, some may not like them because of the precieved notion that they are doing everything in their power to cut wages. Some of that may even be true. But since they took over, we've seen an increase in our fortunes.

      This year, marks our third semi final under the stewardship of FSG. That could go up should we progress in the FA Cup and Europe as well. We've played the best football of the Premiership era under the stewardship of FSG. We've reverted back to the days of keeping the problems in-house. No longer are we on the backs of newspapers because of the fighting among board and staff. They also don't seem to be media craving bas**rds like some owners.

      Yes FSG have got their faults and those faults ultimately lead to them having detractors. One of their biggest faults is being American, after the last pair of cowboys we had from across the Atlantic, it made some Liverpool fans uneasy towards the new yanks. And I think that initial worry still holds a strong feeling with some fans. The cost cutting of wages, the better players leaving, the lower wage signings. It all adds up to people having doubts about them. That's understandable.

      But I'm of the opinion that owners are there to simply sign the cheques. If I don't see them or hear them then they're doing what I want from the owner of my football club. That's the way Liverpool Football Club should be. We were the benchmark of the game because of how well we were ran off the pitch. If I could change one thing, it'd be this "committee" idea. One man should be making the decisions on which player he wants to buy - the manager.

      Aside from that, I think we've got decent owners. And there's not too many of those around nowadays.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #1: Jan 20, 2015 08:43:12 am
      Quote
      John W Henry and FSG/NESV. They took the club over, stabilised us financially and, eventually, got the ball officially moving in terms of an increased capacity at Anfield. Some may not like them because they're not throwing billions of pounds into the transfer kitty, some may not like them because of the precieved notion that they are doing everything in their power to cut wages. Some of that may even be true. But since they took over, we've seen an increase in our fortunes.

      This year, marks our third semi final under the stewardship of FSG. That could go up should we progress in the FA Cup and Europe as well. We've played the best football of the Premiership era under the stewardship of FSG. We've reverted back to the days of keeping the problems in-house. No longer are we on the backs of newspapers because of the fighting among board and staff. They also don't seem to be media craving bas**rds like some owners.

      Yes FSG have got their faults and those faults ultimately lead to them having detractors. One of their biggest faults is being American, after the last pair of cowboys we had from across the Atlantic, it made some Liverpool fans uneasy towards the new yanks. And I think that initial worry still holds a strong feeling with some fans. The cost cutting of wages, the better players leaving, the lower wage signings. It all adds up to people having doubts about them. That's understandable.

      But I'm of the opinion that owners are there to simply sign the cheques. If I don't see them or hear them then they're doing what I want from the owner of my football club. That's the way Liverpool Football Club should be. We were the benchmark of the game because of how well we were ran off the pitch. If I could change one thing, it'd be this "committee" idea. One man should be making the decisions on which player he wants to buy - the manager.

      Aside from that, I think we've got decent owners. And there's not too many of those around nowadays.

      There are valid points there, but you forgot one important detail. They have "Sacked Kenny Dalglish" on their cv, in humiliating fashion to rub it in. It's something you just don't do at this club.

      Yes I like that Anfield will be expanded rather than torn up, and they're better than who they took over from. That wouldn't be very difficult in fairness.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #2: Jan 20, 2015 08:53:21 am

      And THAT is why we are now one of the laughing stocks of football...  :roll:
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #3: Jan 20, 2015 08:56:14 am
      No better a team than the last days of Hicks and Gilette.
      Yet some are still licking Henry and Werner's (and the faceless 16) arses.
      While they sh*t on the fans.

      If Bill and Bob were still around today, I reckon they'd knock it on the head after reading the tripe that gets posted on plants., sorry fans sites.
      Probably to do a more working man's thing. Like Harlequins F***ing rugby.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #4: Jan 20, 2015 09:07:26 am
      And THAT is why we are now one of the laughing stocks of football...  :roll:

      I think we should wait until May before branding ourselves "laughing stocks". Still a lot of football to he played potentially three cups to be won and a CL spot to attain.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #5: Jan 20, 2015 09:18:14 am
      There are valid points there, but you forgot one important detail. They have "Sacked Kenny Dalglish" on their cv, in humiliating fashion to rub it in. It's something you just don't do at this club.

      Yes I like that Anfield will be expanded rather than torn up, and they're better than who they took over from. That wouldn't be very difficult in fairness.

      Kenny was never in the owners long term plans mate I think he was always seen as an interim appointment to help steer the ship back on course after the Bodgson debacle which he did admirably. But the owners should have signed him on an interim basis and not handed him a three year contract knowing full well they were going to replace him as soon as they found a manager that fit into to their long term strategy.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #6: Jan 20, 2015 09:36:43 am
      And THAT is why we are now one of the laughing stocks of football...  :roll:

      I don't know one single person who thinks that be they ours or opposition fans. All the positives that DLS points out in his OP are valid and rather than comment on them you choose to just chuck in your negatives.

      You're in a minority of one in my world.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #7: Jan 20, 2015 11:12:12 am
      This year, marks our third semi final under the stewardship of FSG.
      Not forgetting that we finished runners up in the League of course.  :gt-happyup:

      Then again; we have to remember that winning the League or F.A. Cup actually means F**k all to them... "The FA Cup would not have made any difference had he won it, no, no." ~ John Henry... so giving them praise, for something [reaching semi-finals] they don't give a F**k about, is stretching it to say the least.

      I'm almost certain too that we reached the Champions League final and finished runners-up in the League under "the stewardship" of our last owners - so I'm not sure how valid that type praise is anyhow.

      I guess if you are to praise FSG for the achievements of our managers and players, in reaching semi-finals, then it's only fair that we add balance: under their "stewardship" we have also finished 6th, 7th and 8th.

      But hey... at least they aren't Hicks & Gillette so... good for them.  :gt-happyup:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK19iX3L87w
      « Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 11:29:57 am by bad boy bubby »
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #8: Jan 20, 2015 11:25:34 am
      Not the worst owners in football but any stretch but I just don't feel they will ever measure 'success' in the same way that most of us supporters do.

      They don't see winning silverware as an objective more a by product along the way and being in the CL and increasing profit is their 'success'.

      I'd take a cup every year over top four and FSG are the complete opposite.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #9: Jan 20, 2015 11:45:02 am
      « Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 06:12:28 pm by ayrton77, Reason: Fixed link »
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #10: Jan 20, 2015 12:07:00 pm

      Nope... that link isn't working mate - maybe you could describe it to me?  ;D
      ayrton77
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #11: Jan 20, 2015 06:12:50 pm
      Nope... that link isn't working mate - maybe you could describe it to me?  ;D

      Have a go now, tried fixing the link.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #12: Jan 20, 2015 06:12:59 pm
      There are valid points there, but you forgot one important detail. They have "Sacked Kenny Dalglish" on their cv, in humiliating fashion to rub it in. It's something you just don't do at this club.

      Yes I like that Anfield will be expanded rather than torn up, and they're better than who they took over from. That wouldn't be very difficult in fairness.

      They did sack Kenny, in a way that I didn't like either. But, as much as it disappointed me, Kenny was never their manager. They knew F**k all about football and wanted to get the fans on side as soon as possible. What better way to do that than bring Kenny Dalglish home? The fans appointed Kenny. Eighteen months to two years in the world of football and FSG thought they knew best. They went in the direction that they've pushed the club in ever since. A young manager with a bright future who wouldn't cost the earth.

      So while they have sacked Kenny, to some extent I can understand it if not accept the way it went about.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #13: Jan 20, 2015 06:34:40 pm
      Not forgetting that we finished runners up in the League of course.  :gt-happyup:

      Not forgetting it indeed.

      Then again; we have to remember that winning the League or F.A. Cup actually means F**k all to them... "The FA Cup would not have made any difference had he won it, no, no." ~ John Henry... so giving them praise, for something [reaching semi-finals] they don't give a F**k about, is stretching it to say the least.

      To say they don't give a F**k about it is somewhat unfair, in my opinion. They don't attend many games, so the ones they do are obviously games they feel that little bit extra important. If memory serves me right, they did attend both Cup finals. As I've just said, Kenny was, in my opinion, never their man. So I think he would have been sacked for that, not because they don't care about the Cup competitions.

      I'm almost certain too that we reached the Champions League final and finished runners-up in the League under "the stewardship" of our last owners - so I'm not sure how valid that type praise is anyhow.

      The Champions League final under their stewardship is pushing it. They bought the club in February 2007, by which time we'd already qualified for the knock-out stages. Though I think it was agreed that Moores stayed on until the end of that year and they took control for the following year (where we did get to the semi-finals of the European Cup)

      And finishing runners up in 2008-09 is true. Of course it helped that the majority of squad, and even manager, had been assembled before their arrival. Six players played 30 or more League games for us that year, only one was bought under them (Benayoun). In contrast, last year seven players played more than 30 League games for us and more than half, as well as the manager, were brought in by FSG. So there's a slight difference between giving credit to Hicks and Gillett for us finishing second, to FSG.

      I guess if you are to praise FSG for the achievements of our managers and players, in reaching semi-finals, then it's only fair that we add balance: under their "stewardship" we have also finished 6th, 7th and 8th.

      Indeed we have but we've also finished in similar positions under our greatest too. We showed slightly more patience in those days though because the owners stayed in the background, like owners should. FSG are working in a similar fashion, from what I can see.

      But hey... at least they aren't Hicks & Gillette so... good for them.  :gt-happyup:

      No they're not.

      They're not Glazer, Lerner, Kenwright, Peter Johnson, Dave Whelan, Freddie Shepherd, Phil Gartside or David Gould either. Which I'm quite happy about.


      Happy Days theme song full length release
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #14: Jan 20, 2015 07:17:12 pm
      Happy Days?... Brilliant  :lmao:

      Although, to be fair Billy, I wouldn't have had someone, who comes on here every season to tell us all we should expect to win the league would have been happy with anything less.

      Much less start his own FSG thread [presumably so that your opinion doesn't get lost in the bigger thread] just to blow smoke up the hole of these carpetbaggers.

      I'm sure you didn't start your new thread in the naive belief that every one would join in with the arse-kissing so, having given my tuppence worth (and realising that we aren't going to agree) I bid you farewell and good luck.

      Thanks to FSG  :lmao: I have a semi-final to watch. ;D
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #15: Jan 21, 2015 08:55:59 am
      I don't know one single person who thinks that be they ours or opposition fans. All the positives that DLS points out in his OP are valid and rather than comment on them you choose to just chuck in your negatives.

      You're in a minority of one in my world.

      Well either you work for the owners or know nothing about LFC. Either way, you are an embarrassment to the club.
      We had a better team under the previous vermin.

      The last lot sold 2 stars, 3 if you count Arbeloa.
      The current scum, have sold EVERYONE ELSE.

      Both dodged new stadium plans. Both are only there for cash. Both hate football. Both show contempt for LFC values. Fenway charge even more obscene prices. Fenway are the ones who slash wages into oblivion. G&H BOUGHT stars too eg Masch, Torres etc. Fenway only sell them. Fenway keep most of the debt further up the chain... big deal. Both are pathological liars "we are fervent fans" and "we can compete with anyone" - from the Crooks 2.0. Fenway's pr double speak ie smarm is particular incredible. The current scum don't even show us the courtesy of turning up for a match more than ONCE in 14 months. Both have quietly punted us round for a sale, from very early on.
      Both installed B-list compliant gimps as managers. Atleast Scum v1 had Rafa there a reasonable while.

      The season last yr was simply by hanging onto Luis's coat tails. We're no nearer to success now than 4 yrs ago. I could continue, but the truth is the truth. And any real Red can see it. Time this cancer 2.0 was gone.

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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #16: Jan 21, 2015 09:46:33 am
      Well either you work for the owners or know nothing about LFC. Either way, you are an embarrassment to the club.
      We had a better team under the previous vermin.

      The last lot sold 2 stars, 3 if you count Arbeloa.
      The current scum, have sold EVERYONE ELSE.

      Both dodged new stadium plans. Both are only there for cash. Both hate football. Both show contempt for LFC values. Fenway charge even more obscene prices. Fenway are the ones who slash wages into oblivion. G&H BOUGHT stars too eg Masch, Torres etc. Fenway only sell them. Fenway keep most of the debt further up the chain... big deal. Both are pathological liars "we are fervent fans" and "we can compete with anyone" - from the Crooks 2.0. Fenway's pr double speak ie smarm is particular incredible. The current scum don't even show us the courtesy of turning up for a match more than ONCE in 14 months. Both have quietly punted us round for a sale, from very early on.
      Both installed B-list compliant gimps as managers. Atleast Scum v1 had Rafa there a reasonable while.

      The season last yr was simply by hanging onto Luis's coat tails. We're no nearer to success now than 4 yrs ago. I could continue, but the truth is the truth. And any real Red can see it. Time this cancer 2.0 was gone.

      Weird because we didn't look "a laughing stock" playing against Chelsea who are one of the top teams in Europe right now.

      Anyway, what are you moaning about? I thought you would be happy if they were "punting us around for a sale". Then your dream of being owned by someone living in a Walton terrace who is a lifelong fan of the club doesn't have an ego and is able to outspend the petrodollar clubs can finally come true.

      « Last Edit: Jan 21, 2015 11:10:06 am by Hollywood Balls »
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #17: Jan 21, 2015 03:44:33 pm
      Happy Days?... Brilliant  :lmao:

      Although, to be fair Billy, I wouldn't have had someone, who comes on here every season to tell us all we should expect to win the league would have been happy with anything less.

      Much less start his own FSG thread [presumably so that your opinion doesn't get lost in the bigger thread] just to blow smoke up the hole of these carpetbaggers.

      I'm sure you didn't start your new thread in the naive belief that every one would join in with the arse-kissing so, having given my tuppence worth (and realising that we aren't going to agree) I bid you farewell and good luck.

      Thanks to FSG  :lmao: I have a semi-final to watch. ;D

      I haven't been happy with us not winning the League, and the thread wasn't to suggest I was. It was more to show similarities between the current owners and those that have gone before it.

      Selling our star players is nothing new, as Keegan, Souness and Rush can all testify to.

      But as you well know, anybody who doesn't agree with my point of view is clearly wrong. So if you don't wish to "blow smoke up the hole of these carpetbaggers" then you too are wrong.

      (by the way before some pr**k gets a paddy on, that last paragraph was taking the piss)
      stuey
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #18: Jan 21, 2015 04:06:03 pm
      FSG, NESV, JWH & Co = H&G eventually.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #19: Jan 21, 2015 04:40:33 pm
      The last lot sold 2 stars, 3 if you count Arbeloa.
      The current scum, have sold EVERYONE ELSE.

      Arbeloa a star? Hardly. Unless you do count Arbeloa a star, in which case you'd have to add Bellamy, Garcia, Sissoko, Riise and Crouch as "stars" sold under H&G.



      Yet Anfield is being renovated. Funny that.


      What "contempt for LFC values"? What does that even mean? Examples?

      G&H BOUGHT stars too eg Masch, Torres etc. Fenway only sell them.

      When we bought that big star Mascherano, he was sitting on the bench at West Ham unable to get a game. Yeah, HUGE motherfucking star he was then. Torres was no bigger a star than Suarez at Ajax. All three of them became stars here.

      The current scum don't even show us the courtesy of turning up for a match more than ONCE in 14 months.

      Honestly, who gives a sh*t? I didn't see you spraining your wrist in aggressive, angry masturbation that they weren't around when we finished second. They don't need to ever go to a match as far as I'm concerned. Just make the proper funds available and be done with it.

      Both have quietly punted us round for a sale, from very early on.

      Pics or it didn't happen, as they say on the Internet. Cite a source.

      Both installed B-list compliant gimps as managers. Atleast Scum v1 had Rafa there a reasonable while.

      That "B-list compliant gimp" achieved a record-setting season last year and got us within touching distance of a title with Jon friggin Flanagan at LB (no disrespect to Flanno). The best football we've seen in a very long time. Better than Dalglish's second stint. Better than Hodgson. Better than Rafa. Better than Houlier. Better than Souness.

      The season last yr was simply by hanging onto Luis's coat tails.

      Bullshit. And this season has proven as such. Suarez is world class, but once again the striker with virtually the best strike-rate in Liverpool history gets fu**ed off and disrespected. Who have we missed more this season, Suarez or Sturridge? Keep in mind Suarez would still have been suspended for 4 months at the start.

      Either way, you are an embarrassment to the club.

      That's rich.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #20: Jan 21, 2015 05:01:57 pm
      I get the feeling that AmericanPlant is less a fan of LFC and more a fan of hating FSG...
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #21: Jan 21, 2015 06:06:01 pm
      I get the feeling that AmericanPlant is less a fan of LFC and more a fan of hating FSG...

      No mate, he is a complete bell end. Fact !  :lmao:
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #22: Jan 21, 2015 06:09:04 pm
      Well either you work for the owners or know nothing about LFC. Either way, you are an embarrassment to the club.

      Time this cancer 2.0 was gone.



      Wow, you really are a grade a c**t lad.

      Two reasons I'm done with you right there. Hopefully the second one is your resignation from the forum, F**k all the other bile you spout, solely for using that reference.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #23: Jan 21, 2015 10:46:22 pm
      Wow, you really are a grade a C**t lad.

      Two reasons I'm done with you right there. Hopefully the second one is your resignation from the forum, f**k all the other bile you spout, solely for using that reference.

      Pot and kettle methinks.. :roll:

      Shouldn't you be back in Boston, defending the "rounders brand".
      Instead of desecrating a football club.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #24: Jan 22, 2015 01:21:29 am
      Pot and kettle methinks.. :roll:

      Shouldn't you be back in Boston, defending the "rounders brand".
      Instead of desecrating a football club.

      As usual, you answer any questions or substantive facts with your boring "rounders" joke. Haven't you got anything else?

      And who's "desecrating the club"? According to you we should have Hicks and Gillette back because they bought more stars than Moores and FSG combined.  :lmao:

      Can you, for once, answer a simple question?

      If we have been selling off all our stars and hiring a rookie manager so that the owners can asset strip the club as you claim why is it that your predictions of doom have not come to pass and we instead find ourselves on top of the form table, having narrowly missed out on winning the league last May?
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #25: Jan 22, 2015 01:52:48 am
      Never realised LFCexiled was from Lincolnshire.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #26: Jan 22, 2015 01:53:39 am
      Not the worst owners in football but any stretch but I just don't feel they will ever measure 'success' in the same way that most of us supporters do.

      They don't see winning silverware as an objective more a by product along the way and being in the CL and increasing profit is their 'success'.

      I'd take a cup every year over top four and FSG are the complete opposite.

      I'm with you on this.

      We're just a brand (a big one at that) or a franchise to them. They're not interested in building a team for success, they're only interested in the building (as in Anfield) itself for their success.

      TBH.. I don't think they're even arsed if we make the top 4 or not. Just as long as their 'brand' is ticking over nicely and generating income for their coffers.

      IMO - the Americans who have an "interest" in the clubs that they own, just don't seem to get 'it' when it comes down to how important "soccer" is to the psyche of your atypical football fan. Each and every one of them saw an economical opportunity and jumped on the bandwagon. American owners bought their clubs/shares to make money whereas, the Oligarch and Sheik bought theirs purely for success.
      Billy1
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #27: Jan 22, 2015 08:17:18 am
      FSG might be decent owners compared to Hicks and Gillette but they will never have Liverpool Football Club in their blood.
      Norfolk Red
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #28: Jan 22, 2015 10:42:56 am
      FSG might be decent owners compared to Hicks and Gillette but they will never have Liverpool Football Club in their blood.


      Good post Billy, but I doubt in the football world we live in now there are not many owners with the club in their blood who are doing well. I suppose the bluenoses' would be one with their owner, but it certainly doesn't apply to all the top clubs in this country. Better the devil you know and all that, unless you believe in all the crap that American plant comes out with.
      Same old sh*t over and over, complete bell end.
      stuey
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #29: Jan 22, 2015 11:16:55 am
      FSG might be decent owners compared to Hicks and Gillette but they will never have Liverpool Football Club in their blood.

      If they do the right thing by LFC Billy it wouldn't bother me if they couldn't spell football.
      They are businessmen in spite of the fact their conduct thus far would see them sacked by Sir Allan Sugar.
      After acquiring the club at the last chance auction room they elected to keep their own money in their pockets and lend or sponsor the asset in order to secure it's future, the word 'secure' does not qualify success; merely an interpretation of it, in this case the JWH & Co interpretation of the expression.

      Anyone whose heart was in the club would never accept that interpretation of the ultimate success that LFC has known, anyone who does not have the guile or experience to attain the club's capability should not be at the helm.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #30: Jan 22, 2015 11:22:04 am
      I'm sure the billionaire owner of our club would love to receive business advice from a man who can't spell "Alan".
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #31: Jan 22, 2015 12:12:26 pm
      Yeah John Henry Futures has done great in recent years..NOT.

      Just like LFC's trophy cabinet since your two sets of bosses arrived on the scene...
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #32: Jan 22, 2015 12:31:30 pm

      Can you, for once, answer a simple question?


      So the answer to that would be a big fat no.


      You have about as much credibility as the guy you pass on your way home from the pub who is shouting at the moon.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #33: Jan 22, 2015 01:27:56 pm
      Its very simple. I have answered each and every one of your pathetic questions.
      The real fans on this forum have completely blown away each and every one of your pathetic claims.

      You have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate your are, or ever were a supporter of Liverpool Football Club. You clearly have a hell of a lot of time spare to troll, insult and make up ridiculous, offensive and utterly unfounded claims about those creeps from Boston.

      It is a well known fact that football forums are infested with plants ie paid employees or unpaid interns who's job is to promote a "soccer brand", to cheat and deceive decent football supporters, and con them out of their money. Fenway are one of the most active users of plants.

      The use of plants is legally a form of fraud. Tescos were fined for this behaviour when plants pretended to be residents "applauding" a new supermarket application. I think plants on football forums should be treated in the same way for cheating football fans with lies, spin and misinformation.

      I have nothing to say to you that I haven't said many times before. Just use the search feature.
      Frankly, I am sickened to read the type of comments I read from you and certain others. You bring shame on what was once Liverpool FOOTBALL CLUB.

      You want to hear anything from me? USE THE SEARCH FEATURE. The answer is there. The truth is there.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #34: Jan 22, 2015 01:34:30 pm
      :roll: What a cock and a half, though I understand that's because the pernicious weed is still taking money off Hicks & Gillette.
      Swab
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #35: Jan 22, 2015 01:34:31 pm
      Where's the yawn smiley when you need one.

      What was a good thread from a committed and passionate red has once again been hijacked by an agenda driven troll who does nothing but slag off anyone who doesn't share his view.

      It's a shame, but it was bound to happen, because the guy has no interest in posting about football, and just wants to slag people and spout his bile.

      Back on topic, time will tell with FSG about whether or not they are good or merely safe owners.
      stuey
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #36: Jan 22, 2015 02:07:58 pm
      The opening post acknowledges there are some who remain unconvinced of JWH & Co credentials and business methods, DLS goes on to say it is his opinion that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
       
      Damning one or the other and creating factions is negative and divisive, elements that are not conducive to the support base of the club.
      This is ultimately the aim of 'agents' and unwarranted accusation can only further distraction and cloud the real issues. 
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #37: Jan 22, 2015 03:07:23 pm

      This is ultimately the aim of 'agents' .

      Exactly.
      AmericanPlant
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #38: Jan 22, 2015 03:09:32 pm
      LMFAO

       :roll:

      "Safe owners" who sell all our stars, slash the wages, and see us struggling for Europa league qualifications. Safe in the belief the fans will tolerate a team that does no better than Hicks and Gillette's team (despite the massive new TV deals etc).

      Yeah safe allright. Safe for their arse pockets... and those of their "agents" on the web.

      Now its back to our reporter live in Kew Gardens...  :o

      Swab
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #39: Jan 22, 2015 03:24:29 pm
      Our club accounts are available online.

      Show me where they have taken money to line their own pockets.

      Show where they have sold "stars" against their will.

      In fact, show evidence for all your accusations.
      Thaddeus
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #40: Jan 22, 2015 03:50:36 pm
      All I'm saying is that life would be grand if I were offered money to post on a liverpool forum and be positive. Sadly, reality sucks. AmericanPlant, you seem to know more about this that I do, where can I apply?
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #41: Jan 22, 2015 04:13:03 pm
      As I've already pointed out in this thread selling stars is nothing new for this club.

      Even during our successful period of nearly 30 years, we sold stars.

      Dave Hickson left in the 60s, Keegan left in the 70s, Rush left in the 80s. Among others of course. 
      AZPatriot
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #42: Jan 22, 2015 04:37:04 pm
      Damning one or the other and creating factions is negative and divisive, elements that are not conducive to the support base of the club.
      This is ultimately the aim of 'agents'

      I wonder what poster this is applicable to in this thread...hmm
      stuey
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #43: Jan 22, 2015 05:14:02 pm
      I wonder what poster this is applicable to in this thread...hmm

      As the opening line suggests either of the opposing factions can be ensnared in the negative aspects of the debate, I include myself in that statement.
      There are some who while not expressly appearing to be employed by FSG do not seem to have the best interests of the club in mind, in the main the acknowledged wums who seem impervious to moderators actions.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #44: Jan 22, 2015 05:45:38 pm
      No fan of American ownerships of our business or sports institutions but I do admit out the 6 I can think of:

      1) FSG.
      2) Glazers.
      3) Kronke.
      4) Lerner.
      5) Khan.
      6) Ellis.

      I'm more confident in the the current custodians amongst that group, would prefer the petro dollar owner myself to be honest, they put in rather than take out.
      Swab
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #45: Jan 22, 2015 06:17:18 pm
      As I've already pointed out in this thread selling stars is nothing new for this club.

      Even during our successful period of nearly 30 years, we sold stars.

      Dave Hickson left in the 60s, Keegan left in the 70s, Rush left in the 80s. Among others of course.

      Yep.
      We always have done, and I suspect we always will do.

      The crucial part is the timing and getting the replacement right, which is something we failed to do with Suarez.

      Balancing this though is the fact our squad needed rebuilding, so there's an element of swings and roundabouts.
      Billy1
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #46: Jan 22, 2015 06:21:24 pm
      As I've already pointed out in this thread selling stars is nothing new for this club.

      Even during our successful period of nearly 30 years, we sold stars.

      Dave Hickson left in the 60s, Keegan left in the 70s, Rush left in the 80s. Among others of course. 

      Billy, Dave Hickson was near the end of his playing career, Kegan was replaced by a better player in Kenny Dalglish and Ian Rush came back after 1 season in Italy. If I remember right we brought Aldridge in to cover for Rush.
      Scally21
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #47: Jan 22, 2015 06:31:08 pm
      As I've already pointed out in this thread selling stars is nothing new for this club.

      Even during our successful period of nearly 30 years, we sold stars.

      Dave Hickson left in the 60s, Keegan left in the 70s, Rush left in the 80s. Among others of course.

      Only difference being that we had managers capable of replacing like for like. But there again I suppose it's easy to fine tune an already top team with pedigree.

      Rushie I don't reckon wanted to go in first place. IMO that was the clubs guilt trip.
      Thaddeus
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #48: Jan 22, 2015 06:35:23 pm
      I'm still waiting to hear how I can get a job as a plant on this website. Money for something I apparently do already!
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #49: Jan 22, 2015 06:42:31 pm
      Billy, Dave Hickson was near the end of his playing career, Kegan was replaced by a better player in Kenny Dalglish and Ian Rush came back after 1 season in Italy. If I remember right we brought Aldridge in to cover for Rush.

      I know all that Bill, I'm just pointing out that selling our star players is nothing new. I could of carried on into the 90s and 2000s when players like Beardsley, McManaman, Fowler and Owen were being sold. It's not only under the current owners that we've done this, as some appear to be making out.

      Obviously with the examples I gave, we did sign adequate (and in some cases better) replacements.
      Swab
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #50: Jan 22, 2015 07:17:12 pm
      Only difference being that we had managers capable of replacing like for like. But there again I suppose it's easy to fine tune an already top team with pedigree.

      Rushie I don't reckon wanted to go in first place. IMO that was the clubs guilt trip.

      It was a much easier market to get the players you wanted in back then though.

      Add to that we only really bought British players, AND we were the top club.
      It all makes a big difference and the difference between not only the process of transfers, but also the competition for signings between then and now makes a comparison invalid in my view.
      I don't think the 2 periods can be compared in terms of transfer activity.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #51: Jan 22, 2015 07:35:09 pm
      Never realised LFCexiled was from Lincolnshire.


      Huh?

      Whoooosh on that one I'm afraid.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #52: Jan 22, 2015 10:32:16 pm
      (by the way before some pr**k gets a paddy on, that last paragraph was taking the piss)
      ;D
      I know mate and the truth is we, probably, aren't that different in our views.

      For you (I reckon) the holy grail is the title - same for me. Failing that: trophies - same for me.

      You are happy to attribute our recent on field success to the owners and that is fair enough but...

      Where we differ Billy (or so it seems) is: I believe that success and failure are two sides of the same coin. I believe that it's wrong to separate the two. At best it's an unbalanced view.

      If you are happy to attribute success to the owners (irrespective of who they are) then there's no reason you shouldn't attribute failure to them. And vice-versa btw.

      That's the point I was making in my initial post.

      Do we really attribute the fact that the team finished second to FSG? Because, if we do... we must do the same for H&G.

      If we attribute the three semi-finals to FSG - what about the failure to reach the semis every other time? The two can't be separated to suit.

      All the 'good' is down to them but any failure is down to the players or successive managers? Nah.

      Fact is -  [if you really need to attribute on field exploits to them] - we have 'failed' more under FSG than we have 'succeeded'.  :-\

      However I accept that you didn't start this thread to be just another FSG thread Billy so any more posts I have on FSG will be posted in the original thread - no point in duplication of well worn debates. Catch you later mate. 8)
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #53: Jan 23, 2015 11:37:59 am
      Huh?

      Whoooosh on that one I'm afraid.

      Shouldn't you be back in Boston, defending the "rounders brand".

      Never realised LFCexiled was from Lincolnshire.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_Lincolnshire
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #54: Jan 23, 2015 11:42:36 am
      ;D
      I know mate and the truth is we, probably, aren't that different in our views.

      For you (I reckon) the holy grail is the title - same for me. Failing that: trophies - same for me.

      You are happy to attribute our recent on field success to the owners and that is fair enough but...

      Where we differ Billy (or so it seems) is: I believe that success and failure are two sides of the same coin. I believe that it's wrong to separate the two. At best it's an unbalanced view.

      If you are happy to attribute success to the owners (irrespective of who they are) then there's no reason you shouldn't attribute failure to them. And vice-versa btw.

      That's the point I was making in my initial post.

      Do we really attribute the fact that the team finished second to FSG? Because, if we do... we must do the same for H&G.

      If we attribute the three semi-finals to FSG - what about the failure to reach the semis every other time? The two can't be separated to suit.

      All the 'good' is down to them but any failure is down to the players or successive managers? Nah.

      Fact is -  [if you really need to attribute on field exploits to them] - we have 'failed' more under FSG than we have 'succeeded'.  :-\

      However I accept that you didn't start this thread to be just another FSG thread Billy so any more posts I have on FSG will be posted in the original thread - no point in duplication of well worn debates. Catch you later mate. 8)

      Fair's do mate and truth be told I probably made a similar argument from the other side of things when Hicks and Gillett were in charge. Every time we won it was how great Rafa was for winning while under such difficult circumstances but whenever we lost it was all down to the yanks. I always said I couldn't blame Hicks and Gillett for the on-field performances the same way I couldn't blame Gerrard or Carragher for us not having a new stadium.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #55: Jan 23, 2015 12:48:27 pm

      Cheers mate, I was missing a bit of vital information given the fact I've got cunty bollocks on ignore. All I need now is for the quote system to include ignored posts and I can live in blissful ignorance of trolldom.

      ;D
      Scally21
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #56: Jan 23, 2015 01:11:58 pm
      Fair's do mate and truth be told I probably made a similar argument from the other side of things when Hicks and Gillett were in charge. Every time we won it was how great Rafa was for winning while under such difficult circumstances but whenever we lost it was all down to the yanks. I always said I couldn't blame Hicks and Gillett for the on-field performances the same way I couldn't blame Gerrard or Carragher for us not having a new stadium.

      I don't mean to butt-in on your and BBB's POV but, I'd have to disagree with you on not being able to attribute blame on H & G for our on-field performances.

      How can any team perform when there was so much discord and changes within the boardroom, broken promises to disillusioned players (Torres & Masch) and playing for a club whose very existence was under severe threat (specifically the 'local' lads)?  Not to mention playing in front of a home crowd who weren't 100% supporting the team because we were making our feelings known and 'heard' with regards to Waldorf & Statler.

      There were way too many factors involved for it not to affect at least some certain players - no matter how professional they're supposed to be.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #57: Jan 23, 2015 01:30:23 pm
      I don't mean to butt-in on your and BBB's POV but, I'd have to disagree with you on not being able to attribute blame on H & G for our on-field performances.

      How can any team perform when there was so much discord and changes within the boardroom, broken promises to disillusioned players (Torres & Masch) and playing for a club whose very existence was under severe threat (specifically the 'local' lads)?  Not to mention playing in front of a home crowd who weren't 100% supporting the team because we were making our feelings known and 'heard' with regards to Waldorf & Statler.

      There were way too many factors involved for it not to affect at least some certain players - no matter how professional they're supposed to be.

      Because once you cross that white line the only thing you're focussed on is playing football. Hicks and Gillett were just a convenient excuse for all involved for our failures at the time.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #58: Jan 23, 2015 03:48:44 pm
      Because once you cross that white line the only thing you're focussed on is playing football. Hicks and Gillett were just a convenient excuse for all involved for our failures at the time.

      And do you think it makes any difference to our success if the owners have shelled out for Djimi Traore rather than Ashley Cole to cross the white line?
      srslfc
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #59: Jan 23, 2015 05:54:14 pm
      Because once you cross that white line the only thing you're focussed on is playing football. Hicks and Gillett were just a convenient excuse for all involved for our failures at the time.

      I disagree on this Billy.

      That season I think Rafa and a number of our more experienced players took their eye of the ball a little due to the ownership issue.

      I'm not saying it was the only reason for the sh*te season but I think it played its part.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #60: Jan 23, 2015 06:50:11 pm
      I disagree on this Billy.

      That season I think Rafa and a number of our more experienced players took their eye of the ball a little due to the ownership issue.

      I'm not saying it was the only reason for the sh*te season but I think it played its part.

      Maybe only in preparation. But in my own experience of playing on school teams and now as an adult in some rec leagues, no matter what goes on in my life -- and there has been a ton of things on my mind of late -- I'm in a complete zone once kickoff begins. It's only after the game when your adrenaline settles down that your mind starts getting heavy on you.
      Scally21
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #61: Jan 23, 2015 07:55:53 pm
      Because once you cross that white line the only thing you're focussed on is playing football. Hicks and Gillett were just a convenient excuse for all involved for our failures at the time.

      In his book, Reina states:

      "The way I saw it, Stevie and Carra are the two principle members of our squad, the ones who the people love and if they had said something maybe it would have put Hicks and Gillett under real pressure.
      "In their view, it was more important to try to keep things as normal as possible".

      Steven Gerrard has revealed that it is was not his choice to stay silent:

      “The only reason I didn’t speak out was because Rafa Benítez didn’t want me to. I asked him if I should say something. He told me to leave it to him.
      “When a situation like that happens I don’t think it’s the players’ responsibility to step in. If me and Jamie had a go at them, I don’t think the owners’ were going to say ‘OK, we’ll sell the club £100 million cheaper.”


      There is no way you can honestly expect Gerrard or Carra to cross that white line and not be affected. Even if they were 100% committed to the match it's still going to weigh on your mind. We were all very much vociferous during those times holding aloft a great array of banners and messages.

      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #62: Jan 24, 2015 12:36:09 am
      And do you think it makes any difference to our success if the owners have shelled out for Djimi Traore rather than Ashley Cole to cross the white line?

      Well Hicks and Gillett didn't shell out for Djimi Traore. They instead opted for Paul Konchesky. But in answer to your question, no I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. Many people on here will tell you that I've never bought into the idea that money buys success. If you spend it badly, it doesn't matter how much is spent - Robbie Keane or Alberto Aquilani.

      I disagree on this Billy.

      That season I think Rafa and a number of our more experienced players took their eye of the ball a little due to the ownership issue.

      I'm not saying it was the only reason for the sh*te season but I think it played its part.

      Well I'll be honest mate, they shouldn't.

      To put it in some sort of context from a personal view. For the best part of 18 months, I've worked for the co-op. Glamours I know. In that time I've seen certain parts of our business hit rock bottom, I've seen one of our top brass getting done for drugs and many shops in the co-op name have closed. I had to worry about whether or not I'd have a job to return to for a good month, if not longer.

      However, once I clocked in to start a shift those worries fu**ed off. I was being paid to work, not to stand around worrying about what the future holds. So work I did. In the same manner, once the players crossed the white line then they too should of fu**ed off any worries about the ownership and focused solely on playing, and winning, football matches.

      Obviously each and every person is different but for me, playing football takes my mind off everything else in life. Got me first detention in school, worrying about how I'm gonna tell me folks - go out for a game of footy and that worry disappears for that time period. It doesn't go completely but while playing, it's only football I care about.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #63: Jan 24, 2015 12:44:20 am
      There is no way you can honestly expect Gerrard or Carra to cross that white line and not be affected. Even if they were 100% committed to the match it's still going to weigh on your mind. We were all very much vociferous during those times holding aloft a great array of banners and messages.

      Once they cross that white line the only thing they should be focusing on is football. You know like they did in 08-09 when we still had Hicks and Gillett as owners and the problems were already mounting. It was during that season that the whole "who actually bought Robbie Keane" saga happened.

      Our failings afterwards were excused by the off the field antics and because every Liverpool fan worth their salt hates Hicks and Gillett so much, it makes it a very easy cop out. We're sh*t on the field, it's blame the off the field antics.

      Maybe in terms of preparation it had an affect. Maybe their minds were elsewhere during training sessions or during their time at home. But on the pitch, the only thing that their minds should be on is the match at hand.
      Scally21
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #64: Jan 24, 2015 05:50:33 am
      Once they cross that white line the only thing they should be focusing on is football. You know like they did in 08-09 when we still had Hicks and Gillett as owners and the problems were already mounting. It was during that season that the whole "who actually bought Robbie Keane" saga happened.

      Our failings afterwards were excused by the off the field antics and because every Liverpool fan worth their salt hates Hicks and Gillett so much, it makes it a very easy cop out. We're sh*t on the field, it's blame the off the field antics.

      Maybe in terms of preparation it had an affect. Maybe their minds were elsewhere during training sessions or during their time at home. But on the pitch, the only thing that their minds should be on is the match at hand.

      Looks like were going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You're obviously someone who clearly thinks that all players lack fortitude and compassion. That somehow, they should be mindless robots who are perfectionary in all occasions simply because it's there job and what they get paid for.

      Just wondering if you use this example in all walks of life! :f_tongueincheek:

      Before I sign off on this particular thread, I'd just like to remind you of how off-field matters can affect the players. And you don't even have to take my word for it:-

      “I’m not sure what the fans were singing at the start of the game but when it stopped the noise they made meant no-one could hear what was going on on the pitch.
      I have such respect for this ground and these supporters. What a place this is to play football.”


      Thierry Henry.

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #65: Jan 24, 2015 09:44:58 pm
      Well Hicks and Gillett didn't shell out for Djimi Traore. They instead opted for Paul Konchesky. But in answer to your question, no I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. Many people on here will tell you that I've never bought into the idea that money buys success. If you spend it badly, it doesn't matter how much is spent - Robbie Keane or Alberto Aquilani.

      We were never in for Cole either but thankyou for addressing the substantive point.

      I'm surprised that you think money doesn't buy success. It's not a guarantee, as you point out you have to buy the right players, but by pretty much every measurable metric it's the most important factor.

      If Abramovich had bought Everton, as he originally planned, I think it's hard to argue that they would have won far more than us in the subsequent years. Perhaps it's due to his vast knowledge of football but more likely it would be the petrodollars invested in the club.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #66: Jan 24, 2015 10:12:57 pm

      If Abramovich had bought Everton, as he originally planned,

      I thought it was Spurs he originally came over for?
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #67: Jan 25, 2015 12:41:51 am
      I thought it was Spurs he originally came over for?

      As i understood it Spurs and Everton were the other two clubs he was considering until Jesper Gronkjaer scored that vital goal against us in the FA cup.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #68: Jan 25, 2015 07:30:48 am
      As i understood it Spurs and Everton were the other two clubs he was considering until Jesper Gronkjaer scored that vital goal against us in the FA cup.

      I'd never heard Everton before mate, I'd always thought it was a London club he came to buy and Spurs were the intended option until he flew over Stamford Bridge.

      Do you mean the Gronkjaer goal in the final game of '03 league season when they beat us 2-1 to snatch the final CL place that season? The myth goes that qualifying for that saved them going bankrupt. He set up Desailly for their first in that game too if I remember rightly.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #69: Jan 25, 2015 10:12:06 am
      I'd never heard Everton before mate, I'd always thought it was a London club he came to buy and Spurs were the intended option until he flew over Stamford Bridge.

      Do you mean the Gronkjaer goal in the final game of '03 league season when they beat us 2-1 to snatch the final CL place that season? The myth goes that qualifying for that saved them going bankrupt. He set up Desailly for their first in that game too if I remember rightly.

      Yes that's the one - think I had the FA cup on the brain yesterday!

      Back to the original point regarding dunlop liddell shankly, it's hard to ignore the fact that the likes of Chelsea and Man City have achieved their success through spending huge amounts of money.

      It's not only the case in football but in all professional sports.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #70: Jan 25, 2015 05:55:34 pm
      We were never in for Cole either but thankyou for addressing the substantive point.

      I'm surprised that you think money doesn't buy success. It's not a guarantee, as you point out you have to buy the right players, but by pretty much every measurable metric it's the most important factor.

      If Abramovich had bought Everton, as he originally planned, I think it's hard to argue that they would have won far more than us in the subsequent years. Perhaps it's due to his vast knowledge of football but more likely it would be the petrodollars invested in the club.

      Well I'll be honest, I'm glad we weren't in for Cole who I believe to be vastly overrated. Not a bad player just overrated. For the money we would of spent and the wages he'd of wanted, I don't think it would of been justified. I would of been happier if we'd gone in for Clyne, who can play at left back, around that time. That could of been a bargain up there with the Sami Hyypia one.

      And no money doesn't buy success. It helps, obviously because you can buy a better class of player. And even if it doesn't work out, it doesn't set you back all that much. For example, City can afford to spend over 30 million on Robinho and not bat an eye lid at it. But that also proves my point. A record for the Premier League and one of the biggest flops in the League. Fast forward to Chelsea to breaking the British record by taking Torres down to Stamford Bridge and again proving that just because you spend a bomb, doesn't buy you success. Some clubs don't have that luxury and need big money transfers to succeed or it puts them under serious pressure. Using Everton as the example, the 20 odd million spent on Lukaku sets them back because they don't have a lot money behind them.

      Maybe Everton would of won more than us had Abramovich taken them over. Then again maybe they wouldn't. Don't forget, even Chelsea didn't win anything in his first year - they needed a quality manager to manage their egos. And they haven't exactly dominated the English game, especially in between Mourinho's stints. City, with their millions, have amassed two League titles both of which came down to the last game. They've hardly walked away with despite their money.

      Spending your money wisely is better than spending billions.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #71: Jan 25, 2015 08:08:07 pm
      Well I'll be honest, I'm glad we weren't in for Cole who I believe to be vastly overrated. Not a bad player just overrated. For the money we would of spent and the wages he'd of wanted, I don't think it would of been justified. I would of been happier if we'd gone in for Clyne, who can play at left back, around that time. That could of been a bargain up there with the Sami Hyypia one.

      And no money doesn't buy success. It helps, obviously because you can buy a better class of player. And even if it doesn't work out, it doesn't set you back all that much. For example, City can afford to spend over 30 million on Robinho and not bat an eye lid at it. But that also proves my point. A record for the Premier League and one of the biggest flops in the League. Fast forward to Chelsea to breaking the British record by taking Torres down to Stamford Bridge and again proving that just because you spend a bomb, doesn't buy you success. Some clubs don't have that luxury and need big money transfers to succeed or it puts them under serious pressure. Using Everton as the example, the 20 odd million spent on Lukaku sets them back because they don't have a lot money behind them.

      Maybe Everton would of won more than us had Abramovich taken them over. Then again maybe they wouldn't. Don't forget, even Chelsea didn't win anything in his first year - they needed a quality manager to manage their egos. And they haven't exactly dominated the English game, especially in between Mourinho's stints. City, with their millions, have amassed two League titles both of which came down to the last game. They've hardly walked away with despite their money.

      Spending your money wisely is better than spending billions.

      Thing is thoug there is little to differentiate one club spending "wisely" in comparison to another. Nearly every club will have a transfer "hit rate" of between a third and two third of players working out  therefore the amount you spend becomes the most impportant factor in success.

      I do feel you have changed your tune a bit though - previously you were saying that the owners have relatively little bearing on the team once they cross the white line; in this post you seem to acknowledge that the money "helps".

      As for having the right manager - the owners decide on that too.

      My perosnal feeling is that owners are far more important to a club's success and failure nowadays than managers are.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #72: Jan 25, 2015 09:31:57 pm
      Thing is thoug there is little to differentiate one club spending "wisely" in comparison to another. Nearly every club will have a transfer "hit rate" of between a third and two third of players working out  therefore the amount you spend becomes the most impportant factor in success.

      I do feel you have changed your tune a bit though - previously you were saying that the owners have relatively little bearing on the team once they cross the white line; in this post you seem to acknowledge that the money "helps".

      As for having the right manager - the owners decide on that too.

      My perosnal feeling is that owners are far more important to a club's success and failure nowadays than managers are.

      No the amount doesn't matter. If it did then the entire table would be a case of top = highest spender. 2nd = 2nd highest spender. 3rd = 3rd highest spender...20th = 20th highest spender (lowest). But it doesn't work like that. QPR have spent more than West Ham over a five year period, West Ham are looking at the possibility of European football next year, QPR are looking at yet another year in the Championship next year. So clearly the money spent doesn't matter - the quality of player does matter.

      Now clearly the better players tend to cost more. Then again, you can find a Sami Hyypia for 1.5 million or Mangala for 30 million.

      And how I've changed my tune I don't know. Money helps bring the players in, that's not saying the owners go out and do anything on the pitch. So you've misunderstood that completely. Money helps breaks the transfer record with Fernando Torres. The owners can't make Torres score. So once they've crossed the white line, there's F**k all the owners can do. Same tune I've always said.

      I suppose the owners importance being more than the manager's is why Ranieri, Grant, Scolari, Villas-Boas, Di Matteo and Benitez all failed to win the League under Abramovich. Yet Mourinho, has won two League Titles in three and a bit year at Chelsea and looks set to make that three in four (and a bit) this season. Of course though, that's more to do with Abramovich than Mourinho.
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #73: Jan 25, 2015 09:45:11 pm
      In his book, Reina states:

      "The way I saw it, Stevie and Carra are the two principle members of our squad, the ones who the people love and if they had said something maybe it would have put Hicks and Gillett under real pressure.
      "In their view, it was more important to try to keep things as normal as possible".

      Steven Gerrard has revealed that it is was not his choice to stay silent:

      “The only reason I didn’t speak out was because Rafa Benítez didn’t want me to. I asked him if I should say something. He told me to leave it to him.
      “When a situation like that happens I don’t think it’s the players’ responsibility to step in. If me and Jamie had a go at them, I don’t think the owners’ were going to say ‘OK, we’ll sell the club £100 million cheaper.”


      There is no way you can honestly expect Gerrard or Carra to cross that white line and not be affected. Even if they were 100% committed to the match it's still going to weigh on your mind. We were all very much vociferous during those times holding aloft a great array of banners and messages.



      Evident the players were really concerned. One can only wonder how Benitez coped - I heard his health suffered from the stress involved thanks to those slimy bas**rds.

      Apart from Peter Risdale at Leeds, I don't think I've ever seen so much destruction to a club by its owners.

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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #74: Jan 26, 2015 12:52:15 am
      No the amount doesn't matter. If it did then the entire table would be a case of top = highest spender. 2nd = 2nd highest spender. 3rd = 3rd highest spender...20th = 20th highest spender (lowest). But it doesn't work like that. QPR have spent more than West Ham over a five year period, West Ham are looking at the possibility of European football next year, QPR are looking at yet another year in the Championship next year. So clearly the money spent doesn't matter - the quality of player does matter.

      Now clearly the better players tend to cost more. Then again, you can find a Sami Hyypia for 1.5 million or Mangala for 30 million.

      And how I've changed my tune I don't know. Money helps bring the players in, that's not saying the owners go out and do anything on the pitch. So you've misunderstood that completely. Money helps breaks the transfer record with Fernando Torres. The owners can't make Torres score. So once they've crossed the white line, there's f**k all the owners can do. Same tune I've always said.

      I suppose the owners importance being more than the manager's is why Ranieri, Grant, Scolari, Villas-Boas, Di Matteo and Benitez all failed to win the League under Abramovich. Yet Mourinho, has won two League Titles in three and a bit year at Chelsea and looks set to make that three in four (and a bit) this season. Of course though, that's more to do with Abramovich than Mourinho.

      Well, applying your own argument, you could say that West Ham are above us and Southampton are above United, Arsenal and Tottenham so player quality "doesn't matter". But that's plainly nonsense.

      Both player quality and money spent on the wage bill to attract the best players matter. The more money you spend, the more likely it is that you will attract the best quality players and go on to achieve top results. Money spent on the wage bill is by far the strongest metric associated with success.

      That is a fact. There are entire books devoted to the subject.

      Looking at the premiership - this graph illustrates the average squad cost adjusted for inflation - the article is from Paul Tomkins.
      http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/why-liverpool-never-win-the-league/



      I don't disagree that the team with with the best players is most likely to win but - as I've argued on other threads, some of which I have started - unless we can find a way to increase our transfer "hit rate" above those of other clubs, just trying to best the best players we can wil lesult in us finishing approximately fifth every season assuming that our rivals are following the same strategy.

      Why? Because money spent is the most important metric for success in the professional game. Burnley are probably one of the hardest running most committed sides in the league. More so than Man City from the games I've seen yet one will be Champions and and one will be relegated.

      The evidence is, in fact, so clear cut that Tomkins goes on to say:

      "I find it hard to even discuss football with people who don’t know the kind of things contained within this article; the kind of things I’ve been discussing for years now."

      Sportingintelligence.com has shown that the wage bill accounts for 85% predictive power in the success of the club (the NFL is 14% by comparison):
      http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704407804575425523276093124

      Simon Kuper and Stefan Syzmanksi (Sp) wrote "Soccernomics" and clearly showed the correlation between wage expenditure and final league position:



      The evidence is so strong that the entire face of the game has changed with the introduction of FFP.

      What evidence do you have to the contrary?

      As for your point about owners VS managers, Chelsea won plenty without Mourinho. City won without Mancini and I can guarantee you they will go on to win more without Pellegrini.
       
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      Re: From Houlding To Henry
      Reply #75: Jan 29, 2015 04:17:24 am
      Quote from dunlop liddell shankly
      They did sack Kenny, in a way that I didn't like either. But, as much as it disappointed me, Kenny was never their manager. They knew F**k all about football and wanted to get the fans on side as soon as possible. What better way to do that than bring Kenny Dalglish home? The fans appointed Kenny. Eighteen months to two years in the world of football and FSG thought they knew best. They went in the direction that they've pushed the club in ever since. A young manager with a bright future who wouldn't cost the earth.

      So while they have sacked Kenny, to some extent I can understand it if not accept the way it went about.

      The man here is royalty, and you don't sack him. Nothing can justify it.

      That season, there was the "probably" fiasco, Gerrard out for half the season, Lucas out for the other half. Results understandably were affected. None of that mattered to them, only 4th spot counted. So out he went.

      Quote
      Kenny was, in my opinion, never their man. So I think he would have been sacked for that, not because they don't care about the Cup competitions.

      They're not Glazer, Lerner, Kenwright, Peter Johnson, Dave Whelan, Freddie Shepherd, Phil Gartside or David Gould either. Which I'm quite happy about.

      As for their man, they had no man at all ready to succeed Kenny, when Kenny was hauled to Boston. And the man they eventually appointed was their second choice. They hadn't a clue then, and they don't really have it now either.

      A few months later, they refused to sanction the signing of Clint Dempsey over a measly couple of million. Last summer, they blew €20 million on one of the worst players ever to set foot in Anfield to replace Suarez. To me, they're more Lerner than Learning, a bunch of Yankers that know the price of everything and the value of not a lot.

      Quote from stuey
      If they do the right thing by LFC Billy it wouldn't bother me if they couldn't spell football.

      As it turns out, they can't. Our sport is "sawk-er". Football to them is something you pick up on an artificial pitch in Denver and throw it at someone resembling a bodyguard.

      Quote from Scally21
      Rushie I don't reckon wanted to go in first place. IMO that was the clubs guilt trip.

      I believe that was more of a peace gesture after the wall collapse in Belgium.

      Quote
      I don't mean to butt-in on your and BBB's POV but, I'd have to disagree with you on not being able to attribute blame on H & G for our on-field performances.

      How can any team perform when there was so much discord and changes within the boardroom, broken promises to disillusioned players (Torres & Masch) and playing for a club whose very existence was under severe threat (specifically the 'local' lads)?  Not to mention playing in front of a home crowd who weren't 100% supporting the team because we were making our feelings known and 'heard' with regards to Waldorf & Statler.

      There were way too many factors involved for it not to affect at least some certain players - no matter how professional they're supposed to be.

      As professionals, it was their job to go out and win games, and leave the long knife battles to the boardroom.

      Quote from dunlop liddell shankly
      Well Hicks and Gillett didn't shell out for Djimi Traore. They instead opted for Paul Konchesky. But in answer to your question, no I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. Many people on here will tell you that I've never bought into the idea that money buys success. If you spend it badly, it doesn't matter how much is spent - Robbie Keane or Alberto Aquilani.

      I agree that money doesn't buy success, but the Keane signing wasn't a waste of money. Instead he was  used brutally as a political football between the coach and the board. I've never seen it before at this club, and I hope I never see it again. One of them has gone on to win more league titles and honours since, the other is off dressing up Charity Shields in the back of beyond as "success" these days.

      Quote from Hollywood Balls
      I'm surprised that you think money doesn't buy success. It's not a guarantee, as you point out you have to buy the right players, but by pretty much every measurable metric it's the most important factor.

      You can put away your articles, and get out a copy of last week's football results. That's more proof should it be needed, that cash will not win anything in this game on it's own.

      Quote from Son Of A Gun
      Evident the players were really concerned. One can only wonder how Benitez coped - I heard his health suffered from the stress involved thanks to those slimy bas**rds.

      Apart from Peter Risdale at Leeds, I don't think I've ever seen so much destruction to a club by its owners.

      Blackburn, Portsmouth?

      I'm sure his health was considerably better when the "slimy bas**rds" gave him a brand new, multi-million quid, 4 year contract we couldn't afford. If he kept his mouth shut the following year and got us enough results, he probably would have served it out in full, the club was up for sale at the time. But he couldn't be trusted to do that, so out he went and soon enough, out they went too. Instead it was Kenny and Brendan who had to pick up the pieces the lot of them left behind, with a much weaker squad to choose from and a board that are only interested in us making manc income from the neighbour's expenditure.

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