The Dark arts, gamesmanship, and the winning mentality.

 When all said and done, despite battering Chelsea in the first leg and then coming out second best by the thickness of a Rizzla paper last night, we still lost. We still lost, they still won, and when they are picking up the trophy at Wembley nobody will remember (except perhaps some of us) how well we played. Through a variety of methods, from time wasting to putting the referee under pressure (both players and manager), from diving to stamping to strategic fouling, they managed to prevail in the end.

 Cheating b@stards? Well yes, but we have IMHO a choice between being the paragons of virtue, upholders of the beautiful game (naïve in other words) or looking at areas where we can give ourselves a better chance of winning these tight matches. We can I guess take some solace in Costa's retrospective ban (which he must surely get) but we are hardly going to be beneficiaries of that are we? Will it be left to us and Arsenal to plough a lone furrow, upholding not just the game itself but the actual "spirit" of the thing?

 I have in mind some areas in which we could put some thoughts into being more "effective", here they are in no particular order.

  Phillipe Coutinho. ; We have in our ranks a lovely little footballer, one of the finest in the league. At the moment though in comparison to similar players in terms of stature and skill (Hazard being the glaring example), he is too easy to play against. Time and again he is "fouled" and fails to exact the most he could from the situation. Many talked of Henderson being "lucky" to stay on yesterday (and he was in all honesty), but his handball was only a precarious for us because he had been booked for a "tug" on Hazard. A "tug" is always a booking if the referee sees it, and he had no choice but to see this one because the moment Henderson put his hands on the Belgian he stopped and looked at the referee. Compare and contrast in the second half when Coutinho brilliantly turned Fabregas only to be hauled back by his shorts. Our fella battled on and away from the Spaniard but to what end? If he stops it's Fabregas who is booked and is walking a tightrope. I'm not advocating that Coutinho dives here, I'm merely making the point that he says to defenders "if you foul me in any way I'm going to make sure I get you the full punishment for it". Suarez was the arch exponent of this, and with handballs in the box in particular he simply used to stop dead in his tracks and give the referee no option but to give it. If Coutinho can adopt this mind set, he'll be impossible to tackle in and around the box. He'll become a better player and we will reap the benefit.

  Emre Can when stamped on by Costa. ; Should still be laying there now if the referee hasn't sent the ugly tw@t off. Nobody saw it, but they sure would have if Emre had screamed and stayed down. It would have got quietly "referred" to the fourth official while Emre was receiving treatment, and Costa would have been sent off. Had he taken this course of action rather than jumping up and calling him a C***, (understandable and spot on accurate but it doesn't win you games) we'd all be chasing tickets for Wembley now. Once again not advocating we "invent" a foul, nor "dive", just that when we see an opponent lose his discipline and do something like that, we ensure he pays the price. Ask yourself this, what would Costa have done if Can had done it to him? What would Mourinho and Terry done, there would have been absolute f*cking uproar.

  Brendan Rodgers . How the f*** was Mourinho allowed to get into the referees ear in the tunnel without our man being in there? Come to that, how the f*** was Mourinho allowed to get into his ear in any case? Will the FA do anything about it? will they f***. Brendan should have known that Mourinho was going to jump up and down about the penalty they didn't get, and he should have been ready to go ballistic in the tunnel over OUR agenda (ie that Costa shouldn't have been on the pitch in the first place). Mourinho shouldn't have been able to get a word in sideways as our man was all over the ref making HIS points. Not knowing or not caring that the Chelsea manager was going to get in the referees ear was plain stupid and Brendan needs to wise up.


 There are more but the post is already a book (and I have a life to lead, kids etc) so I'll let it go for now.           

Chuck in the rent a mob coaching staff,please tell ne what they do, atletico under someone are almost identical in every way, although in Spain as in south America any boundaries or friendships go out the window. Players dive including ours but the constant mourinho baiting has an effect, he says with a straight face that hazard doesn't dive, we stood up to costa and showed him to be a playground bully, who actually loses his focus. It's sad that we should think about chasing the ref around and the other things that this typical mourinho team does.brendan made the mistake of being to pally with mourinho, treat the c**t with the respect he deserves ie none

At the end of the day we still lack a striker who can put the ball in the back of the net on a regular basis and who is prepared to die for the cause. Mourinho has came out of the same mould as Ferguson and is a master at getting into referees ears to get the desired result. I think it is pathetic that a club of our standing  has not bought a proven striker in this window.

Chuck in the rent a mob coaching staff,please tell ne what they do, atletico under someone are almost identical in every way, although in Spain as in south America any boundaries or friendships go out the window. Players dive including ours but the constant mourinho baiting has an effect, he says with a straight face that hazard doesn't dive, we stood up to costa and showed him to be a playground bully, who actually loses his focus. It's sad that we should think about chasing the ref around and the other things that this typical mourinho team does.

I'm not saying we should "chase the ref" as a rule mate, mate just saying that we shouldn't let them get an advantage. If they chase the ref, we should chase him too, otherwise it looks to the official as if he's messed it up.

Nothing much I can add to the OP Mick except - if you're going to get booked for stopping a player, for fucks sake make sure you've hurt him. Run your studs down his achilles; boot his calf; anything but pulling his F***ing shirt or arm. 

Agree Mick.

Many of us have said it over the years that we're too nice as a team and we've been like this for quite a while now give or take the odd exception like Suarez.

Emre Can when stamped on by Costa. ; Should still be laying there now if the referee hasn't sent the ugly tw@t off. Nobody saw it, but they sure would have if Emre had screamed and stayed down.

Reminds me of when Nani had his leg cut at Anfield but got up and hopped around.  Didn't help him then either did it.

You raise a good point - we lost the mind games as well as the football last night.  We're just not very clever at a lot of things and Chelsea do just enough to wind the opposition up to take their focus off the game.

Excellent thread bigmick - I have been thinking for a couple of years how we really need to improve our gamesmanship and become more cynical.

I still maintain that i sthe real reason we missed out on the title last season.

Dark art number four:


Strategic fouling/taking one for the team. When Ivanovic got burned on the outside by Sterling last night he didn't mess about. Pull him back, take the yellow and move on. None of this letting him get into the box, round the back or any of that stuff (infact the stuff that Fabregas was allowed to do last week by Can prior to us conceding the penalty). Equally, if you rob Chelsea of possession when they have players forward, they will always foul you in your own half before you have chance to break on them. It'll look fairly innocent, there'll be a "coming together" or someone "blocked off", but they will always stop you in your tracks. Strategic fouling is a large part of modern defensive strategy, as scoring goals when teams are "set" is extremely difficult. Annoyingly, referees are seemingly oblivious to the deliberate nature of it and often don't punish with a card. As I say, Chelsea do it all the time, in every single game they play.

   

I bang on about this sort of stuff all the time. Born winners against born mugs at times. Its the small details that cost us in these clashes with Chelsea.

Last season we were running about like silly shites to get them the ball back from the first minute at Anfield whenever the ball was not in play. We only needed a draw at that time.

This year and adding to everything you said there Mick, we decide to put Mario Balotelli, the least disciplined, hard working and aware player in our ranks in the centre of the box and ask him to look after Ivanovic; a player known for scoring winners against us and winners in big games.

Fast forward 10 minutes we have a free kick in roughly the same area. They have John Terry, Kurt Zuma,  and Ivanovic in the centre of their box.

There's your difference really.

Wish we would wise the F**k up, there's nothing worse than losing to these tw*ts, especially in games where we have played the better football!

I too have other little gripes including throwing it down the line against a team who want the ball out of play... throw it in F***ing field!  Also playing it out from the back in periods of games where it is clear we are only inviting trouble on to ourselves.

Agree think Louie took us to a new level on that score he was smarter than the average and had a pair ,we just  need to wise up.
I wish Stevie hand dinked that pr**k Costa when he was at the malarky on or off the ball just nut the c**t ,Souness would have sorted him no probs him and their backroom staff,still gutted the mornings no made me feel any better

Problem is the refs are only human.

When you have the likes of Mourinho or Ferguson ready to come down on your mistakes to the press you are more likely to give them the decisions - it's as simple as that.

The manager needs to be putting more pressure on the ref.

Dark art number five:

Managing the referee.

At the end of the second period of extra time last night there was one minute added on. This after they'd been wasting time ever since they'd scored. Wasting time by taking ages over every set piece, wasting time by going to pick the ball up for a throw in but "inadvertently" see it bounce off their toes and run twenty yards away (I love that one). How come there was only one minute? Because we weren't in the referees ear enough. Every time they were f***ing about Stevie should have been in Olivers ear "that's another thirty seconds right there ref, don't forget to add it on at the end". Would we have got all the time which was wasted? No. Would we have got more than 1 minute? Definitely. If we'd scored the goal and wasted time, how much time would have been added on at the end of extra time? Precisely.   

Dark art number six:

targeting players who are on a card.

Just occasionally Chelsea have one of their own players sent off (it should have happened to Costa last night, it does happen occasionally). At that point, they will ruthlessly target anyone on the opposition who has a card and surround the referee if that player commits a foul. For a while they forget about trying to score, they solely base their strategy on "evening up" the numbers. They had someone sent off in the league this year at home (can't remember the detail sorry) and it took them only a few minutes to get the red the other way.

Even when the numbers are even, they will methodically target anyone who is on a card. they'll surround the ref and ask him why he's not giving that player the second yellow if he commits a foul, they'll take him on in possession to try and draw one. When you add together the diving and histrionics to get the initial foul carded, along with the co-ordinated and choreographed bullying of players and stamping of feet by the coaching staff, it puts the referee under immense pressure. Under these circumstances, while the referee is standing up to it he is your friend. He not only needs to hear your concerns too in order to balance things up, but he needs to know you at least are on his side with a few "let the man referee the f***ing game" rants at their players. 

The irony in in the stamp is can you imagine the feeding frenzy the media would be having this morning if it was Suarez and he was still playing for us? They'd be calling for a twelve month ban. Barely a peep though from them when it's Costa.

On the wider point though, it's all part of the one failing Rodgers has as a manager (other than chronic foot in mouth syndrome). He's a very astute and adept tactician, seems to be a very good man-manager when he chooses to be so, but he's a principled man who will not sacrifice those principles for the greater good. The situation with Balotelli is a perfect example of this. Forget who bought him and whether he wanted him at the club or not, the fact is he's here and doesn't fit in to our system and where any other manager would be prepared to change the system to suit the player, he wants the player to change to suit our system to the determent to all involved.

Look at Chelsea in the first leg, they played a defensive game, draw the tie, bring it back to their ground and play expansive, attacking football. Why? Because for Mourinho winning is more important than his principles. At the end of the day that's why his CV is packed with trophies and Brendan's isn't.

The irony in in the stamp is can you imagine the feeding frenzy the media would be having this morning if it was Suarez and he was still playing for us? They'd be calling for a twelve month ban. Barely a peep though from them when it's Costa.

On the wider point though, it's all part of the one failing Rodgers has as a manager (other than chronic foot in mouth syndrome). He's a very astute and adept tactician, seems to be a very good man-manager when he chooses to be so, but he's a principled man who will not sacrifice those principles for the greater good. The situation with Balotelli is a perfect example of this. Forget who bought him and whether he wanted him at the club or not, the fact is he's here and doesn't fit in to our system and where any other manager would be prepared to change the system to suit the player, he wants the player to change to suit our system to the determent to all involved.

Look at Chelsea in the first leg, they played a defensive game, draw the tie, bring it back to their ground and play expansive, attacking football. Why? Because for Mourinho winning is more important than his principles. At the end of the day that's why his CV is packed with trophies and Brendan's isn't.

they'd of wanted him shot

Strategic fouling/taking one for the team.  When Ivanovic got burned on the outside by Sterling last night he didn't mess about. Pull him back, take the yellow and move on. None of this letting him get into the box, round the back or any of that stuff (infact the stuff that Fabregas was allowed to do last week by Can prior to us conceding the penalty). Equally, if you rob Chelsea of possession when they have players forward, they will  always  foul you in your own half before you have chance to break on them. It'll look fairly innocent, there'll be a "coming together" or someone "blocked off", but they will always stop you in your tracks. Strategic fouling is a large part of modern defensive strategy, as scoring goals when teams are "set" is extremely difficult. Annoyingly, referees are seemingly oblivious to the deliberate nature of it and often don't punish with a card. As I say, Chelsea do it all the time, in every single game they play.

I think we do some of that. Lucas has been on the receiving end of a yellow card  for strategic fouling, but you're right, not enough. The issue is, Chelsea really have made it into an art form. It's almost second nature to them under that piece of sh1t Mourinho. They rarely give away fouls in or around their penalty area (something we're quite naive about and do so regularly - which drives me f***ing nuts given how poor we are in defending set pieces) but instead get 10 men behind the ball, but they are the masters of little tugs, trips, blocks in opposition area.

I am of the opinion it's something we could learn from and do a bit more work on, because we do come across as naive most of the time. As much as we can work on our crisp passing and fluidity in the team, we don't have enough steel. Players like Can, Hendo and Lucas could be far more subtle in their methods.

Having said that, we created 3 clear cut chances last night that a goods triker would have put away, and all of Chelsea's "dark arts" would have come to nothing. Ifs and buts Im guess...

The irony in in the stamp is can you imagine the feeding frenzy the media would be having this morning if it was Suarez and he was still playing for us? They'd be calling for a twelve month ban. Barely a peep though from them when it's Costa.

On the wider point though, it's all part of the one failing Rodgers has as a manager (other than chronic foot in mouth syndrome). He's a very astute and adept tactician, seems to be a very good man-manager when he chooses to be so, but he's a principled man who will not sacrifice those principles for the greater good. The situation with Balotelli is a perfect example of this. Forget who bought him and whether he wanted him at the club or not, the fact is he's here and doesn't fit in to our system and where any other manager would be prepared to change the system to suit the player, he wants the player to change to suit our system to the determent to all involved.

Look at Chelsea in the first leg, they played a defensive game, draw the tie, bring it back to their ground and play expansive, attacking football. Why? Because for Mourinho winning is more important than his principles. At the end of the day that's why his CV is packed with trophies and Brendan's isn't.

I'm not disputing Mourinho's single-mindedness nor the fact he is an extremely effective manager (probably the most effective there is IMHO). I'm not even denying that Brendan could improve in the regard of being "nastier". The real reason though that Mourinho's cv is packed with trophies and Brendan's isn't, is because by and large Mourinho has managed clubs who have a greater opportunity to win trophies. Simple as that really.

You should get a job at Anfield Mick , Dark Arts Coach ,on a Friday 12- 3  tell Brendan to take a halfy

yes we need to get smarter but at the same time I don't want us to become as cynical and c*&tish as Chelsea, I genuinely despise that team and its t&*t of a manager.

I disagree. I saw Star Wars, forever will the darkside dominate your destiny. I don't want to crowd the ref, make strategic fouling a priority, 'get nasty'. I think if we concentrate on trying to create chances then we will be better off. Public opinion will go with us too. Look how hard Madrid have tried to get their reputation back after Mourinho left. Yes they still outspend the opposition but at least they don't spunk the cash on turning footballers into cage fighters. No a winning mentality is not synonymous with the dark arts.

Totally agree. As a team we're not smart enough, we get away with it against the smaller teams but as soon as we come up against the top teams (especially in a two legged tie) it's brutally exposed. There's a reason why we put in so many 'good' performances against the big teams but rarely come away with three points.

I`d have love to hear Shanks take on this,and how he would address the situation a master of so many things in football,  is whats in front of us now so different from all those years ago