Time for a DOF?

We know the familiar complaints about our record in the transfer market.

There is general consensus that things have to change to improve our performance. We cannot complete with our rivals financially to the level where we can afford to blow them out of the water. Therefore we need players we can buy in young, train and fit to our system regardless of how long the manager stays at the club. This is how dynasties are built. We can see how the likes of Southampton are punching above their weight using this approach.


We cannot go back to the “old” days of a manager having total power. A modern superstar football contract might cost the club a hundred million pounds over five years. There is simply no way we can afford to but many of those players without oversight given that most managers in the modern game last about two years.


The way I see things there are two basic options:.


1)Boost the existing transfer committee. Get in better scouts, better analysts and let the manager have the casting vote on ALL decisions.
ADVANTAGES: The manager has ultimate power and can therefore be held responsible if the players don’t work out.
DISADVANTAGES: The current manger is still young and is not used to handling players at the top level. Hence we may be buying more Borinis / Allens / Lovrens/ Lallanas / Lamberts. When the new manager (eventually) arrives, the players we have spent years buying may not fit with his system.



2) Hire a Director of Football to ensure that the players we buy represent value for the club and fit the club’s ethos.
ADVANTAGES: the likes of Henderson, Sterling and Suarez stay with the club through different managers and accrue value giving us the option to keep or sell as we see fit.
DISADVANTAGES: The manager has less authority and may struggle to fit the players into “his” vision.



Brendan has previously said he will not work under a DOF so we have to decide whether or not things need to change and, if so, what we do about it?

What have we lost a match? Yep, get a DOF in. They scored one too? Right, lets get this f***ing defensive coach in sharpish, the way we defend set-pieces is a joke.

Its fine as it is at the moment.

The Committee just needs a bit of rejigging I think and perhaps a few new scouts to join the team after we lost 3 a few months ago.

BR doesn't want to work under a DoF and I don't think it really works in England as the managers aren't really used to it here. Its like someone buying players for the team and then saying to the manager, "now manage them".

What have we lost a match? Yep, get a DOF in. They scored one too? Right, lets get this f***ing defensive coach in sharpish, the way we defend set-pieces is a joke.

No it's bigger than that.

Even if we had won there have been questions since Brendan arrived about the success of our transfers.

If you're happy with our performance in that regard that's all well and good. Most other fans aren't.

I hate DOF

What difference will it make if FSG refuse to cough up the money for top proven talent?

What difference will it make if FSG refuse to cough up the money for top proven talent?

It reduces the risk so more money is likely to be invested.

If you owned the club and you knew that a contract could cost a hundred million pounds over five years how likely would you be to let a manager decide who to sign when you know that, on average, he will only be there two to three years before he is replaced?

It reduces the risk so more money is likely to be invested.

Maybe.

But look at what Man City's DOF spent a lot of money on last summer. It hasn't improved their team as the mauling by Barcelona showed. 

Maybe.

But look at what Man City's DOF spent a lot of money on last summer. It hasn't improved their team as the mauling by Barcelona showed.

The question is whether they would have gotten a better result if all the money had been put in Pellegrini's hands instead.

The question is whether they would have gotten a better result if all the money had been put in Pellegrini's hands.

We don't know the answer to that. But my guess is he can't have done much worse last summer anyway.

The point is mate, if Liverpool had plenty of money then anyone could pick out the likes of Alexis Sanchez, Karim Benzema etc ..  It's about having the money to get them. Getting a DOF with a brilliant eye for cheap talent would be nice in theory; but in practice they're rarely found.

We tried a DOF and we ended up with Andy Carroll and Charlie Adam. The problem isn't a Director of Football or Committee or Manager on his own making decisions, the issue is the club wide policy. A DOF working to the same policy as the Committee is now will bring in the same players. I've said from the very beginning that if you have a policy based around young talent it won't work because of several factors, not least of which is the fact that they're too inexperienced to win anything so you're an unsuccessful club and the successful clubs will just cherry pick your young talent from you because the player will want to win things. We're seeing this now with Sterling. It's an ultimately self defeating policy because there's no return on your investment. The player leaves before his development is complete. 

If we had gone in to the Champions league this year with a host of experienced players, there is a higher chance we would have made it through to the Quarter finals because they would know how teams in the competition play, know individual player styles because they had either played with them or played against them in the competition before. This in itself would alleviate some of the problems of having an inexperienced manager. Similarly if we had a highly experienced manager who was playing inexperienced players we might have gotten away with it because he at least knows what to expect. Our transfer policy has lead to a situation where its the blind leading the blind at the club (insofar as experience, not talent).

Our club's transfer policy is a cancer at the heart of our club and as long as that policy is there it will continue to slowly kill us; we will remain an unsuccessful also-ran at best. The policy needs to go. Once it does, we can examine the personnel based upon their performances working under what can be considered 'normal' conditions. The personnel aren't our problem, the policy is.

No it's bigger than that.

Even if we had won there have been questions since Brendan arrived about the success of our transfers.

If you're happy with our performance in that regard that's all well and good. Most other fans aren't.

I wonder if it's got anything to do with the fact we buy 2nd or 3rd level players that aren't coveted by other teams?

It doesn't matter who is doing the choosing, be it the manager, the transfer committee or a DOF, if you are operating within those parameters you will struggle to consistently buy quality. End of.

That's my view on it and it kinda makes this whole thread a moot point for me.

We don't know the answer to that. But my guess is he can't have done much worse last summer anyway.

The point is mate, if Liverpool had plenty of money then anyone could pick out the likes of Alexis Sanchez, Karim Benzema etc ..  It's about having the money to get them. Getting a DOF with a brilliant eye for cheap talent would be nice in theory; but in practice they're rarely found.

But unless a rich sheik buys us out we have to accept that we simply don't have the money to outspend the petrodollar clubs.

We have to start from where we are. We have money from the TV deal but City have money from the TV deal AND a billion pound sbehind them.

If our only hope is to outspend them we have already lost.

I get the point your making Hollywood but there is no guarantee a DOF would correct any 'mistakes' in the transfer market.

I get the point your making Hollywood but there is no guarantee a DOF would correct any 'mistakes' in the transfer market.

Of course you're right there are no guarantees. The trial of using Commolli was ultimately a failure but if we had, say, rafa on board surely we would do better than we are doing now?

Of course you're right there are no guarantees. The trial of using Commolli was ultimately a failure but if we had, say, rafa on board surely we would do better than we are doing now?

Rafa as a DOF?

In theory that should cover the next few months wa**s but in reality it's too much of a clash. I can't see Brendan feeling at all comfortable with such an iconic figure in that role who is still in his prime for coaching.. One bad run like earlier this season and the calls would start immediately
And Rafa I wouldn't think is ready to step 'upstairs'

Of course you're right there are no guarantees. The trial of using Commolli was ultimately a failure but if we had, say, rafa on board surely we would do better than we are doing now?

So you'd rather we change the manager then?  

So you'd rather we change the manager then?  

Precisely. Can you imagine what some of these people would be like if we had Rafa as one of the groundsmen never mind "director of football"  . It's bad enough now while he's the manager at Napoli. My wish has always been that if those that want such a thing are successful in hounding Brendan out of the job (and they had a real good go at it a few months ago), then I hope they bring Rafa back in as the manager. That way we can once and for all lance this festering boil which sits on the club like an elephant growing on it @rse.

Well that's why Brandan didn't want to work under a DOF.

People want a "footballing man"- Rafa, LVG etc but that puts the manager under pressure if he is not getting results.

So what's the best solution?

Well that's why Brandan didn't want to work under a DOF.

People want a "footballing man"- Rafa, LVG etc but that puts the manager under pressure if he is not getting results.

So what's the best solution?

Employing a manager who's first name is easy to remember is step one.

Employing a manager who's first name is easy to remember is step one.

Do you know the difference between typos and factual errors? My crap typing skills often lead to me making typos because I hit the wrong key on the keyboard.

It is of course a good idea to check your own posts if you are going to be a pedant though - the word you were looking for is "whose" not "who's". That's an error of syntax and highlights poor language skills.

Happy to help 

But unless a rich sheik buys us out we have to accept that we simply don't have the money to outspend the petrodollar clubs.

We have to start from where we are. We have money from the TV deal but City have money from the TV deal AND a billion pound sbehind them.

If our only hope is to outspend them we have already lost.

It isn't about outspending them but there has to be a willingness to match them from time to time or at least put up a fight. With £75 million in the back pocket (plus standard summer spend) last summer was an opportunity to go after a couple of the 'coveted' players you claim so regularly claim we should not be thinking about.

They didn't take it. Instead we gambled on a bunch of younger players at the next level. Some of them are actually starting to look the part (Can, Moreno) so the timing of this thread seems a bit of a strange one to me.

 

 

It isn't about outspending them but there has to be a willingness to match them from time to time or at least put up a fight. With £75 million in the back pocket (plus standard summer spend) last summer was an opportunity to go after a couple of the 'coveted' players you claim so regularly claim we should not be thinking about.

They didn't take it. Instead we gambled on a bunch of younger players at the next level. Some of them are actually starting to look the part (Can, Moreno) so the timing of this thread seems a bit of a strange one to me.

Would we be better off to have bought Falcao? Or Ozil? Or Jovetic?

We needed a bigger squad with the increased unmber of games so we took a decision to buy more players.

As for the timing - we are approaching the summer transfer window so we need to decide whether the new recruits are bought under the exoisting framework. The general consensus seems to be that we need to change things to improve our performance.

Would we be better off to have bought Falcao? Or Ozil? Or Jovetic?

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Whilst I don't 100% agree with him, I don't think his point was to cherry pick, though that is they way it came across. I think he meant that transfers fail at all levels, regardless of whether you are chasing the big "proven" names or not.

Edit: Though its worth noting that you get a better quality of failure with the big name buys

Employing a manager who's first name is easy to remember is step one.

They're wearing their keyboards down today Mick, wumming away like F***ing Dervishes.

Whilst I don't 100% agree with him, I don't think his point was to cherry pick, though that is they way it came across. I think he meant that transfers fail at all levels, regardless of whether you are chasing the big "proven" names or not.

Of course they do, but they are far more likely to fail if your shopping in Aldi while your rivals bugger off to Harrods every summer.

And it doesn't matter who is finding the players either, DOF, manager, transfer committee, whatever. It makes this whole thread a moot point. The lack of flexibility in our approach to transfer targets will make it VERY difficult to repeat last season's heroics.

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Fabregas - who would we have dropped to include him? would he have chosen us over Chelsea? (london , mourinho, wages, track record of being in the top competitions)

Costa - to replace Danny or play two up top? Again Chelsea needed him last season and waited for him - was he going to choose us for the same reasons?

Lazacette - we could have bought him but he ws (at the time) a second tier player. We opted for Origi instead time will tell.

Pogba - no suggestion he was going to move last window no matter how much money we (or anyone else) threw at it.

Are we in a position where we needed one last piece to complete the puzzle and compete at domestic and european level? No, even if Suarez had stayed we needed  more players to compete due to our european commitments.

Even if we had the money to buy four or five top class talents at 40 million each we would have exceeded our FFP purchase threshold.

So the question is if those players you mentioned weren't coming (and there's no chance in my opinion on three of the four) should we have kept our cash or gone for the next targets on the list?

I wonder if it's got anything to do with the fact we buy 2nd or 3rd level players that aren't coveted by other teams?

It doesn't matter who is doing the choosing, be it the manager, the transfer committee or a DOF, if you are operating within those parameters you will struggle to consistently buy quality. End of.

That's my view on it and it kinda makes this whole thread a moot point for me.

Didn't really have to 'cos I knew the instigator of this thread would be one of the usual suspects, wearing out the keyboard after a defeat for the lads; guess what?
Moot as F**k now mate.

I don't think there can be any dispute that if you buy proven players you increase the chances of a transfer being a success. Why? well because they have already "proven" that they are a good player, kind of stands to reason doesn't it? Similarly, I suppose if you never pay more than 1 million quid for a player you significantly reduce the risk of wasting too much money on a big contract or a wasted transfer fee, because you aren't shelling either one out.

So two pretty obvious "givens" there, which are probably impossible to sensibly argue with (although no doubt someone will). Here's another, our current transfer policy sits somewhere between the opposite ends of the spectrum. By that, I mean we obviously take more of a punt that 1 million quid transfers, but equally we don't compete anywhere near the very top of the market. I think most would accept that this is a necessity, but would like us to nudge towards more often competing for the very top players. Does this make their success a certainty? No, but it significantly increases the chances they'll prosper.

I don't think there can be any dispute that if you buy proven players you increase the chances of a transfer being a success. Why? well because they have already "proven" that they are a good player, kind of stands to reason doesn't it? Similarly, I suppose if you never pay more than 1 million quid for a player you significantly reduce the risk of wasting too much money on a big contract or a wasted transfer fee, because you aren't shelling either one out.

So two pretty obvious "givens" there, which are probably impossible to sensibly argue with (although no doubt someone will). Here's another, our current transfer policy sits somewhere between the opposite ends of the spectrum. By that, I mean we obviously take more of a punt that 1 million quid transfers, but equally we don't compete anywhere near the very top of the market. I think most would accept that this is a necessity, but would like us to nudge towards more often competing for the very top players. Does this make their success a certainty? No, but it significantly increases the chances they'll prosper.

Well another point that's impossible to argue (though I'm guessing someone will) is that our major rivals can afford to outspend us. Partly because of petrodollars, partly becase they have consistently qualified for the big tournaments with big TV money.

Therefore if our strategy is the same as theirs we will always fail because when they buy ie they buy Aguero, we buy a cheaper version of aguero, they buy Fabregas, we buy a cheaper version of Fabregas - the result being that we spend a lot but still end up with an inferior team.

Our only hope is to spend our money in a smarter way than they do.

Fabregas - who would we have dropped to include him? would he have chosen us over Chelsea? (london , mourinho, wages, track recoord of being in the top competitions)

Wasn't my intention to get involved in talking about the individual players as it isn't the point I am trying to make but come on, you've made yourself look stupid with this comment. Do you watch any football? If Adam Lallana can get into the team then i'm fairly certain a player of Fabregas' quality can make it past the likes of Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen into the starting line-up. Can we just accept that Fabregas is a quality player who would have improved us considerably but his status ruled him out completely. would I rather have one Cesc Fabregas than 2 Adam Lallana's? Everyday of the week.

Are we in a position where we needed one last piece to complete the puzzle and compete at domestic and european level? No, even if Suarez had stayed we needed  more players to compete due to our european commitments.

The manager stated quite clearly in the summer that he would rather have 2 or 3 top top players than go out and buy 7-8 squad players with potential. His words not mine.

So the question is if those players you mentioned weren't coming (and there's no chance in my opinion on three of the four) should we have kept our cash or gone for the next targets on the list?

My answer to that is that you are speculating, we wouldnt' get them, they wouldn't come, would have no interest. How do you know? We didn't try, our transfer policy says we won't try. Take Pogba, out of our league i'd say BUT last summer may have been an opportunity to throw a good chunk of the Suarez money at a player who would have bossed our midfield for the next 10 years. There's the plug to fill your Gerrard shaped hole right there. Obviously that ship has sailed now but last summer there may have been an opportunity given the extra funds and the kudos coming off an excellent season.

You have utterly accepted that we cannot compete, should not compete for any of these players. I have not.

Our only hope is to spend our money in a smarter way than they do.

Yep, and smarter (for me) meant spending the added funds from the transfer of Suarez on a couple of players who would (under the transfer restrictions you are alluding to) not normally be available to us.

I think you misread what some are saying, I don't think everyone is saying we must buy all these top stars on huge wages BUT it would improve our chances if the boat was pushed out from time to time to get a player the manager wants. If that player happens to be playing very well at the top level there is a chance they will be coveted by other sides and they may cost more (in transfer and wages) as a result. It doesn't have to be black and white. You make it sound like it is.

I have to ask, are you Tom Werner?

You have utterly accepted that we cannot compete, should not compete for any of these players. I have not.

Based on what?

Money? Our rivals have more than us.

Playing at the top levels? We last won the league around the same time as Everton, we have not qualiied consistently in the Champions league for years.

Mangerial pull? Brendan is a young coach making his reputation.

History? It may be news to you but most players really don't give a F**k. it's the ssame reason they aren't flooding to Ajax or Parma or Marseilles.

But please enlighten us - perhaps I've missed something.

Wasn't my intention to get involved in talking about the individual players as it isn't the point I am trying to make but come on, you've made yourself look stupid with this comment. Do you watch any football? If Adam Lallana can get into the team then i'm fairly certain a player of Fabregas' quality can make it past the likes of Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen into the starting line-up. Can we just accept that Fabregas is a quality player who would have improved us considerably but his status ruled him out completely. would I rather have one Cesc Fabregas than 2 Adam Lallana's? Everyday of the week.

The manager stated quite clearly in the summer that he would rather have 2 or 3 top top players than go out and buy 7-8 squad players with potential. His words not mine.

My answer to that is that you are speculating, we wouldnt' get them, they wouldn't come, would have no interest. How do you know? We didn't try, our transfer policy says we won't try. Take Pogba, out of our league i'd say BUT last summer may have been an opportunity to throw a good chunk of the Suarez money at a player who would have bossed our midfield for the next 10 years. There's the plug to fill your Gerrard shaped hole right there. Obviously that ship has sailed now but last summer there may have been an opportunity given the extra funds and the kudos coming off an excellent season.

The manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

As for me speculating - so are you.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

Based on what?

Money? Our rivals have more than us.

Playing at the top levels? We last won the league around the same time as Everton, we have not qualiied consistently in the Champions league for years.

Mangerial pull? Brendan is a young coach making his reputation.

History? It may be news to you but most players really don't give a f**k. it's the ssame reason they aren't flooding to Ajax or Parma or Marseilles.

But please enlighten us - perhaps I've missed something.


The manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

As for me speculating - so are you.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

I'm not sure about that, we've played without a credible striker for much of the season. Had we got Sanchez for example, I think we'd have had a similar number of points (at least) to Man City.

Yep, and smarter (for me) meant spending the added funds from the transfer of Suarez on a couple of players who would (under the transfer restrictions you are alluding to) not normally be available to us.

I think you misread what some are saying, I don't think everyone is saying we must buy all these top stars on huge wages BUT it would improve our chances if the boat was pushed out from time to time to get a player the manager wants. If that player happens to be playing very well at the top level there is a chance they will be coveted by other sides and they may cost more (in transfer and wages) as a result. It doesn't have to be black and white. You make it sound like it is.

I have to ask, are you Tom Werner?

I think the owners got their fingers badly burnt when Kenny did that with Andy Carroll. Arguably that transfer set us back two years in our development.

The question you have to address is that on one hand you want us to overpay for the manager's preferences but on the other hand don't rate the manager's preferences (ie Lallana - alongside Lovren, Lambert, Allen and Borini all of which we "overpaid" for).

I'm not sure about that, we've played without a credible striker for much of the season. Had we got Sanchez for example, I think we'd have had a similar number of points (at least) to Man City.

Hindsight.

Could easily have been Falcao instead.

Hindsight.

Could easily have been Falcao instead.

Hindsight.

Falcao could easily have turned out to be quite good.

Hindsight.

Falcao could easily have turned out to be quite good.

Which is why you or Scottbot naming X player or Y player is pointless.

We need to decide on which system for recruiting the player will give us the best results.

What we know (with hindsight) is that our current acquisition policy can be improved. This thread is about how to do that.

The question you have to address is that on one hand you want us to overpay for the manager's preferences but on the other hand don't rate the manager's preferences (ie Lallana - alongside Lovren, Lambert, Allen and Borini all of which we "overpaid" for).

You think on an open board (or more open board) that the manager's transfer preferences all played at Southampton last season? I do not.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

I didn't say "by himself", but as Mick pointed out if would/could have helped.

 

e manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

This comment proves it, you are Tom Werner

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

Considering "B" grade players are who we are generally in the market for then yeah, I guess so. Or keep the money and buy another B grader the next window. I'd like us to mix it up a bit, go after a top top player from time to time. I don't really understand your issue with this or why you can't see a benefit? (hence the Tom Werner jabs)


I just don't see what is the point of this thread? Our transfer policy (of which you seem to be pretty committed too, in fact you are the forum defender of it) means this talk of a DOF is pretty pointless. You are asking the question would this guy be better at this "B grade" player malarkey than that guy, or those guys. Truth is we can't hope to be much more than a side challenging for 4th with the odd cup run thrown in for good measure under FSG. That's about the size of it.

You think on an open board (or more open board) that the manager's transfer preferences all played at Southampton last season? I do not.

I didn't say "by himself", but as Mick pointed out if would/could have helped.

 
This comment proves it, you are Tom Werner
Considering "B" grade players are who we are generally in the market for then yeah, I guess so. Or keep the money and buy another B grader the next window. I'd like us to mix it up a bit, go after a top top player from time to time. I don't really understand your issue with this or why you can't see a benefit? (hence the Tom Werner jabs)


I just don't see what is the point of this thread? Our transfer policy (of which you seem to be pretty committed too, in fact you are the forum defender of it) means this talk of a DOF is pretty pointless. You are asking the question would this guy be better at this "B grade" player malarkey than that guy, or those guys. Truth is we can't hope to be much more than a side challenging for 4th with the odd cup run thrown in for good measure under FSG. That's about the size of it.

We went for Sanchez - he chose Arsenal.

You complained that we don't back the manager enough to overpay for his targets yet we did exactly that with Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lambert and Lallana - none of whom you seem particularly enamoured with.

If i'm Tom Werner you're Kevin Keegan 

Biggest problem with a DOF for me is that if he buys a player, and the manager doesn't fancy him and is reluctant to use him, then what?

I'd imagine a manager who has personally vouched for a player is far more likely to stick with and develop a player who may turn good.

And then if a DOF-bought player isn't getting picked - who does he go to and have a word with? The DOF probably and this will undermine the manager.  I'm against it in principle.

We just need to buy a lot better.  We've bought too many one season wonders, or players looking decent in otherwise average teams, or we've bought the wrong players from these teams that have had good seasons.

The way we buy players seems to be based on who the media have raved about in the past 3 months - we need to get better people in to identify promising talent rather than buying players for £15M a year after their 'breakthrough' seasons.

Which is why you or Scottbot naming X player or Y player is pointless.

We need to decide on which system for recruiting the player will give us the best results.

What we know (with hindsight) is that our current acquisition policy can be improved. This thread is about how to do that.

It can only be improved if is compromised. Get someone else in operating under the same parameters and we will see (by and large) the same results. It was a recognition of this that had me speaking so passionately in the Sterling contract situation thread but despite recognising our transfer activity isn't the best (hence you starting this thread) you are perhaps the biggest advocate of "sign it or we will wash our hands of you Raheem".

It's bonkers, if you recognise that we are hamstrung, operating at a disadvantage in the transfer window and yet you would rather have us speculating on "B grade" players than dare to consider paying Sterling what is advisors are asking.

You complained that we don't back the manager enough to overpay for his targets yet we did exactly that with Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lambert and Lallana - none of whom you seem particularly enamoured with.

I'm not talking about overpaying though. More often than not players are worth what the market will drive hence we dumped out of the Willian race a couple of season back, not sure who we used the saved money to buy but I daresay it was on a couple or few players that the manager was less keen on. But you're right, we seem to overpay on players that aren't coveted by other teams, one season wonders as JD called them. I'd rather we went after a bit more proven quality of the Sanchez ilk. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like Lallana but I'd rather take Fabregas anyday.

As for Sanchez, yes he is of the calibre we should be aiming for from time to time, absolutely proven, top player, would have been fantastic. What I can't figure out is why once he said no we turned our attentions to the Remys' and the Balotelli's of this world. Brendan's first choices? I don't know, I don't think so.

Biggest problem with a DOF for me is that if he buys a player, and the manager doesn't fancy him and is reluctant to use him, then what?

I'd imagine a manager who has personally vouched for a player is far more likely to stick with and develop a player who may turn good.

And then if a DOF-bought player isn't getting picked - who does he go to and have a word with? The DOF probably and this will undermine the manager.  I'm against it in principle.

We just need to buy a lot better.  We've bought too many one season wonders, or players looking decent in otherwise average teams, or we've bought the wrong players from these teams that have had good seasons.

The way we buy players seems to be based on who the media have raved about in the past 3 months - we need to get better people in to identify promising talent rather than buying players for £15M a year after their 'breakthrough' seasons.

Good post - there are advantages and disadvantages to either system.

It's definitely true that managers get on better with the players they have selected themselves but looking at our recent history, Rafa bought a bunch of players who were on his wavelength but then had no clue ho wto adopt to Woy's genius plans.

Then Kenny came in and had to work out what to do with the likes of Konchesky and subsequently spent a fortune on building a team around Andy Carroll.

First thing Brendan had to do was give him and the other acquisitions the elblow and strat rebuilding the squad in his own image. Arguably we have only just started to do that now - this season was still a "transitional"  year for us because we didn;t know our strongest team, formation, stlye and tactics when the season started.

Maybe there would be conflict between manager and DOF but less change between managers - as Shnks, Paisley, Fagan, Kenny benefited from.

The problem nowadays is that managers don't stick with teams for long periods to build a style and philosophy into the club DNA.

No it's bigger than that.

Even if we had won there have been questions since Brendan arrived about the success of our transfers.

If you're happy with our performance in that regard that's all well and good. Most other fans aren't.

Please don't act like you speak for the majority of Liverpool fans. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't get to speak for "most Liverpool fans."

For the record, the feedback I get from most of my footie friends (these are fans of Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal in particular) is that they are actually envious of a lot of the recent business we have done. They are quite concerned that we will be able to nurture Coutinho, Sterling, Ibe, and Can into genuine world class talents and will reap the rewards for our "shrewd" recruitment policy in the coming seasons....

It can only be improved if is compromised. Get someone else in operating under the same parameters and we will see (by and large) the same results. It was a recognition of this that had me speaking so passionately in the Sterling contract situation thread but despite recognising our transfer activity isn't the best (hence you starting this thread) you are perhaps the biggest advocate of "sign it or we will wash our hands of you Raheem".

It's bonkers, if you recognise that we are hamstrung, operating at a disadvantage in the transfer window and yet you would rather have us speculating on "B grade" players than dare to consider paying Sterling what is advisors are asking.

Oh I get what you are saying - you think that because we bought Raheem under a strategy we should just go along and give him whatever he wants?

No = like Rafa i believ that every player has his worth to the club. We bought Sterling for a deal rising to 5million. Now he is worth many times that.

But he has to provide value for us - if not he is by definition draining the rest of the team of investment. 

I repeat again we will only succeed if every pound we spend returns more value than every pound United or City or Arsenal spend.

If we pay top wages we should expect top performances at a minimum.

I'm not talking about overpaying though. More often than not players are worth what the market will drive hence we dumped out of the Willian race a couple of season back, not sure who we used the saved money to buy but I daresay it was on a couple or few players that the manager was less keen on. But you're right, we seem to overpay on players that aren't coveted by other teams, one season wonders as JD called them. I'd rather we went after a bit more proven quality of the Sanchez ilk. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like Lallana but I'd rather take Fabregas anyday.

As for Sanchez, yes he is of the calibre we should be aiming for from time to time, absolutely proven, top player, would have been fantastic. What I can't figure out is why once he said no we turned our attentions to the Remys' and the Balotelli's of this world. Brendan's first choices? I don't know, I don't think so.

It's a balance of risks - we would have been unlikely to lose much on either of those deals.

I guess if we want a new manager this would be the quickest and easiest way to do it.

 

The problem nowadays is that managers don't stick with teams for long periods to build a style and philosophy into the club DNA.

The problem nowadays is that owners and fans don't stick with managers long enough to build a style and philosophy. It's lose today, sacked tomorrow in modern day football. That's why managers don't want to work with a DOF, they don't get long to get it right and if they get it wrong they are out on the ear. That's why they would rather win/lose on their own terms and not be compromised by having to work with someone else's players.

It might work in the NFL but it'll never work in English football.

Please don't act like you speak for the majority of Liverpool fans. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't get to speak for "most Liverpool fans."

For the record, the feedback I get from most of my footie friends (these are fans of Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal in particular) is that they are actually envious of a lot of the recent business we have done. They are quite concerned that we will be able to nurture Coutinho, Sterling, Ibe, and Can into genuine world class talents and will reap the rewards for our "shrewd" recruitment policy in the coming seasons....

Well, as pointed out elsewhere I have probably been the staunchest defender of our summer signings - i'm glad that people are coming around to the same view.

But that doesn't mean the majority of fans have been happy with our transfer dealing so far - check any number of threads on the issue - and it doesn't mean we can't improve on our business.

Getting players in young and playing them in a system until they gel is the best way for us to manufacture "value" in the squad. Broadly that's what we are doing.

The problem nowadays is that owners and fans don't stick with managers long enough to build a style and philosophy. It's lose today, sacked tomorrow in modern day football. That's why managers don't want to work with a DOF, they don't get long to get it right and if they get it wrong they are out on the ear. That's why they would rather win/lose on their own terms and not be compromised by having to work with someone else's players.

It might work in the NFL but it'll never work in English football.

Easy to say mate but that's reality. If qualifiying for next years Champion's League might net you £60 million pounds how long can any club afford to let their manager find their feet whilst our rivals are filling their bank accounts and signing big name players?

At a certain point you have to conclude that even if you have the new Rafa the gap will grow too big.

I guess if we want a new manager this would be the quickest and easiest way to do it.

Exactly right - that's why this thread is so crucial.

If Brendan refuses to work with a DOF we will have to decide what is more important to the future of the club.

The problem nowadays is that owners and fans don't stick with managers long enough to build a style and philosophy. It's lose today, sacked tomorrow in modern day football. That's why managers don't want to work with a DOF, they don't get long to get it right and if they get it wrong they are out on the ear. That's why they would rather win/lose on their own terms and not be compromised by having to work with someone else's players.

It might work in the NFL but it'll never work in English football.

Damien Comolli might argue that point - but then he would wouldn't he?

Damien Comolli might argue that point - but then he would wouldn't he?

At least there was culpability with him in place.

With the cartel that is the 'committee' who do FSG apportion the blame?

At least there was culpability with him in place.

With the cartel that is the 'committee' who do FSG apportion the blame?

The Computer Software?

Dont know about DOF because honestly i dont know how it works behind the scenes. does the manager has the final say or are players thrown at him? so i am not going to comment on that.

But what i do know is that if there is any transfer comitee then they should get fired, same goes for scouts. Our scouting system and recruting system should be second to none. If there is one area the owners should throw money at, then its that department.

Our future depends on it, get the scouts with the best record. dont hire scouts because they have worked at city or whatever, look for the best canditates and pay what they want in wages, but demand results. I personally feel that people in that department in LFC have gotten a free ride so far.

Exactly right - that's why this thread is so crucial.

If Brendan refuses to work with a DOF we will have to decide what is more important to the future of the club.

This thread like most threads is not crucial because the owners will do what they feel right irrespective of what we think!

This thread like most threads is not crucial because the owners will do what they feel right irrespective of what we think!

By that reckoning then, there's no need for this or any forum.

By that reckoning then, there's no need for this or any forum.

Not really no because it only ends in tears after a loss 

Would  probably spare a lot of grown ups a premature Heart Attack.......

Don't see the need for another level of bureaucracy unless it was a really top guy like monchi at Sevilla or the old Milan guy who just went to Barcelona. Fsg could do with a more knowledgeable and forceful voice in their ear and a administrator with a football background who deals with negotiations ect but not deciding who you buy, else you'll end up like Newcastle buying players cos you have links with certain agents

The more I think about Hollywoods idea of a director of football, the more I'm starting to think it's a good idea. Ideally, you want someone who has proven in the past that they can spot a player, who knows what the manager of the first team wants, has good solid links with both the academy and the first team and is respected by everyone in the club. You want this person to help develop young players and to run the club with the idea of a long-term project, say ten years or so rather than the next few matches. Presumably, this person isn't up for the sack regardless of whether of not you win a match on penalties, he is in there for the long haul. I guess this fella would be charged with appointing all the youth coaches too, giving the direction to them so all our teams play the same way.

It's a great idea. I even know who should be given the job of first team coach and director of football, Brendan Rodgers. Sorted.

This thread like most threads is not crucial because the owners will do what they feel right irrespective of what we think!

true; what I should have said is that the subject of the thread is crucial.

It's a great idea. I even know who should be given the job of first team coach and director of football, Brendan Rodgers. Sorted.

Sorry mate, that's pie in the sky stuff. Why would he want to come here? 

But he has to provide value for us - if not he is by definition draining the rest of the team of investment. 

At risk of repeating myself again, I do not have your faith in our ability to invest in the squad therefore I consider any drain Sterling's new contract might put on our ability to invest to be worth every penny.

If Sterling were to go (and I don't think he will) I do not have confidence in the board, FSG, the transfer committee, whatever you want to call them in spending the money on a player of similar (or better standard) quality. We would be weaker. The rules you claim we must always abide by would see to this.

That is the absolute crux of it for me and is why our opinions differ so fundamentally on Sterling. What is bizarre to me is that you can see issues with our transfer dealings and yet you do not agree.

I have no problem with a DOF in principle and actually think it can be a good system but it is crucial that the man working below him i.e. the head coach is completely happy in that system.

DOF is not required if you have a strong ambitious Board & CEO who fully back what the man they appointed requires other than a black top hat to pull rabbits out of.

The problem is with Director of Football is I wouldn't be certain of anyone in the role.

The best guy I would have thought for the role before summer may have been Tixi Begiristain but his signings at City leave a lot to be desired I think.

I don't think we're doing too badly. In Emre Can, Moreno, Sakho, Markovic, Lallana, Sturridge, Coutinho, Sterling and Ibe, at the very least, we have a group of young and talented players who are hopefully going to grow together and flourish as they mature. Obviously we can improve our hit rate but I don't think we need a DoF for that and under Brendan I think they'll all do well.

The real thing that could prevent us/very probably has prevented us from progressing as quickly as we'd like is not supplementing that with one or two really top bracket players capable of coming straight in and instantly improving the first 11. Last summer in particular, having sold Suarez and nearly won the league, we had every right to expect better than what we got. A downgrade up front was inevitable but it didn't need to be that MAHOOOOSIVE, and likewise our midfield didn't receive quite the boost we were expecting. I expected at least one top class arrival in either of those areas. We got neither. That policy will need to change if we're serious about competing with the so-called big boys.

I don't think we're doing too badly. In Emre Can, Moreno, Sakho, Markovic, Lallana, Sturridge, Coutinho, Sterling and Ibe, at the very least, we have a group of young and talented players who are hopefully going to grow together and flourish as they mature. Obviously we can improve our hit rate but I don't think we need a DoF for that and under Brendan I think they'll all do well.

The real thing that could prevent us/very probably has prevented us from progressing as quickly as we'd like is not supplementing that with one or two really top bracket players capable of coming straight in and instantly improving the first 11. Last summer in particular, having sold Suarez and nearly won the league, we had every right to expect better than what we got. A downgrade up front was inevitable but it didn't need to be that MAHOOOOSIVE, and likewise our midfield didn't receive quite the boost we were expecting. I expected at least one top class arrival in either of those areas. We got neither. That policy will need to change if we're serious about competing with the so-called big boys.

Good post mate, that's what I have been trying to say about compromising the policy slightly. If we could just supplement the work that is already being done with a top top signing here and there we could be in really good shape, assuming of course we get the signings right at is.

I always said we need one, a capable one.

Who would your DOF be Op? oh crap I just looked back and it's Hollywood balls asking the question. He's like a marketing or gauging the fans reactions guy. Not real salt of the earth.

A DoF would mark the beginning of the end for Rodgers and I'm not sure we can afford to let Rodgers go.

Who would your DOF be Op? oh crap I just looked back and it's Hollywood balls asking the question. He's like a marketing or gauging the fans reactions guy. Not real salt of the earth.

A bit unfair mate.

Hollywood does raise some good debates on here.

The problem is with Director of Football is I wouldn't be certain of anyone in the role.

The best guy I would have thought for the role before summer may have been Tixi Begiristain but his signings at City leave a lot to be desired I think.

Great ones would be directors (but not limited to this type) which proved they have the brains by turning average sides into European winners, mainly due to making great transfers, hiring the right managers and so on.

Monchi at Sevilla is the best example, also Matthias Sammer is a good one. Ariedo Braida is another example, Pantaleo Corvino comes to mind also.

A bit unfair mate.

Hollywood does raise some good debates on here.

I may be way off the mark and I'd say sorry but he seems very business-like and he or she is always defending the Scrooge mentality in place.

A DoF would mark the beginning of the end for Rodgers and I'm not sure we can afford to let Rodgers go.

If it is a choice on which BR has his say or even is his choice i don't see any reason for this to happen.

Well put issue.

At risk of repeating myself again, I do not have your faith in our ability to invest in the squad therefore I consider any drain Sterling's new contract might put on our ability to invest to be worth every penny.

If Sterling were to go (and I don't think he will) I do not have confidence in the board, FSG, the transfer committee, whatever you want to call them in spending the money on a player of similar (or better standard) quality. We would be weaker. The rules you claim we must always abide by would see to this.

That is the absolute crux of it for me and is why our opinions differ so fundamentally on Sterling. What is bizarre to me is that you can see issues with our transfer dealings and yet you do not agree.

That's a separate issue though.

We are currently not strong enough to win the Premiership and we know our rivals will strengthen further in Summer.

Sterling is not going to win the league campaign by himself - in fact he is far from the finished article.

We need to improve our transfer dealings no doubt about it - but we can't be in a position where we are so scared to find what we need in the market that we can be held to ransom by players.

The more I think about Hollywoods idea of a director of football, the more I'm starting to think it's a good idea.

"Hollywood's idea" 

A while back,  in 'The Committee" thread, http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,47157.60.html#quickreply I posted this (in a reply to your good self) mick:

I'd weigh up the options between a DoF (working closely with the manager, under very defined parameters) and giving the manager carte blanche to decide what team he puts together to decide how money will be spent and on which players. *

In each case there would obviously be a budget allocated. It would then be down to them [Manager & DoF or Manager's team] on how that money is spent. No restrictions, no computer programmes - just human eyes and human judgement.

Either option could then spend the money on players that they feel will improve the on-field performance of the team. There would be no ambiguity; no debate: the manger would stand or fall on those judgements.

* n.b.  My gut instinct would be a DoF/Manager set-up with only football people involved but either option, in my opinion, is better than any nerd, sat in front of a computer, running a programme he designed, to see if a player represents "value".

The PR rep's response? A, par for the course, troll...

DOF - tried with Comolli and a "footballing man" - ended up with Andy Carroll, Downing, Adam, Coates etc.

And since Brendan has explicity said he wouldn't work with a DOF either we get a new manager or we can the idea.

Pretty obvious really - so what's your bright idea to solve the problems we actually have?

And now? Well it looks like the "bright idea" has some merit after all. 

Apart from 'look at me' there's a subtext to this thread mate; subtle yes, but very clear when you look. The PR dept is testing the waters on getting rid of Brendan. 

Do yourselves a favour and let this fishing expedition die on it's mealy-mouthed, Chelsea loving, PR peddling, WUM arse. 

Happy to help. 

I may be way off the mark and I'd say sorry but he seems very business-like and he or she is always defending the Scrooge mentality in place.

You're looking for a Father Christmas approach to the club?

Oh great, the resident forum head-the-ball has weighed in with his usual bollocks to distract everyone whilst he is busy furiously missing the point.

Excuse me while I get some caffeine.

Oh great, everyone loves Hollywoofballs rep, for Lfc. omg you suckers.

Oh great, everyone loves Hollywoofballs rep, for Lfc. omg you suckers.

 

Anyway back to the topic, the key question here is whether Brendan is prepared to work with a DOF. As pointed out previously he has refused.

I may be way off the mark and I'd say sorry but he seems very business-like and he or she is always defending the Scrooge mentality in place.

You mean the scrooge mentality that saw us escape FFP censure by the skin of our teeth?

For me we need a DOF no more than we need a defensive coach, what we do need tho is owners who are prepared to pay the kind of wage that is appropriate to the top quality players we need,

I bet come the summer we are interested in say Reus for example, it's almost guaranteed we will miss out because our wage structure won't match another clubs, then we will probably sign a cheaper less talented individual,

It doesn't take a DOF to work that out does it ?

I just think we need better scouts, look at Saints, we took three of their players last summer and everyone thought they would struggle, yet they found the lads Tatic, Mane, etc add Sniederling, Wanyama, Aldeireweilde, Pelle,
Who discovered those players, are Saints scouts better than what we have ?

YNWA

For me we need a DOF no more than we need a defensive coach, what we do need tho is owners who are prepared to pay the kind of wage that is appropriate to the top quality players we need,

I bet come the summer we are interested in say Reus for example, it's almost guaranteed we will miss out because our wage structure won't match another clubs, then we will probably sign a cheaper less talented individual,

It doesn't take a DOF to work that out does it ?

I just think we need better scouts, look at Saints, we took three of their players last summer and everyone thought they would struggle, yet they found the lads Tatic, Mane, etc add Sniederling, Wanyama, Aldeireweilde, Pelle,
Who discovered those players, are Saints scouts better than what we have ?

YNWA

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11366206/Gary-Neville-The-era-of-the-gaffer-is-over.html

"A few years ago, like many others who are close to the game, I would have bristled at the mention of a director of football - a technical or sporting director.

To me, the manager was the ultimate authority on all football club matters. But talking this week to Les Reed, who has overall control at Southampton, has strengthened my belief that 95 per cent of clubs will adopt the model that has been so successful for the Saints....."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11366206/Gary-Neville-The-era-of-the-gaffer-is-over.html

As the link attempts to convince ''the era of the gaffer is over'' with the coming of the all affecting DOF role.
The era of a particular gaffer was conveniently over at LFC thanks to an all affecting DOF appointed by JWH & Co.

As the link attempts to convince ''the era of the gaffer is over'' with the coming of the all affecting DOF role.
The era of a particular gaffer was conveniently over at LFC thanks to an all affecting DOF appointed by JWH & Co.

Funny that you spend every other post prattling about putting me on ignore and now it turns out you haven't Wetherton.

Nothing can be worse than the current crop picking and choosing players to bring in.

It wasn't my ideal solution but I have wanted a DOF since Mario came in.

I think the current system did well in the first window they operated in which was the January in which we signed Sturridge and Coutinho.   Then with all hopes high they had a mare in the second one in the summer.  They didn't do business in the January after.   Now the last summer signings are showing some real promise.  There is still at least a few months till summer for those that give players more 3 games to settle.   

I think it is looking like summer was also a good or maybe a very good window.  The next couple of months will be a little more conclusive.   If we say the committee have operated in 3 windows.  One was a total success.  2 very good players both a fraction of their worth after playing them for a few months.  That doesn't happen and can not be expected from any sort of structure.   But it did and we take it with both hands.   Now if the last summer's transfers are going to be a success and lets be fair when you purchase 9 players you can't get them all right again under no ones expectations.  Then we have a case that the current  committee has a 2 in 3 success rate over their last 3 windows of operation.   For me any new system needs time.  It needs time to adjust and tune up for it to produce optimum results. 

Nah for me at this moment of time I wouldn't be looking at ditching the Committee.  A little tune up here and there OK.  But for me I would want it to be given more time.