Time for a DOF?

Would we be better off to have bought Falcao? Or Ozil? Or Jovetic?

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Whilst I don't 100% agree with him, I don't think his point was to cherry pick, though that is they way it came across. I think he meant that transfers fail at all levels, regardless of whether you are chasing the big "proven" names or not.

Edit: Though its worth noting that you get a better quality of failure with the big name buys

Employing a manager who's first name is easy to remember is step one.

They're wearing their keyboards down today Mick, wumming away like F***ing Dervishes.

Whilst I don't 100% agree with him, I don't think his point was to cherry pick, though that is they way it came across. I think he meant that transfers fail at all levels, regardless of whether you are chasing the big "proven" names or not.

Of course they do, but they are far more likely to fail if your shopping in Aldi while your rivals bugger off to Harrods every summer.

And it doesn't matter who is finding the players either, DOF, manager, transfer committee, whatever. It makes this whole thread a moot point. The lack of flexibility in our approach to transfer targets will make it VERY difficult to repeat last season's heroics.

Aha, I see what you did there, let me have a go.

Would we have been better off if we'd bought Fabregas? or Costa? or Lazacette? or Pogba?

Fabregas - who would we have dropped to include him? would he have chosen us over Chelsea? (london , mourinho, wages, track record of being in the top competitions)

Costa - to replace Danny or play two up top? Again Chelsea needed him last season and waited for him - was he going to choose us for the same reasons?

Lazacette - we could have bought him but he ws (at the time) a second tier player. We opted for Origi instead time will tell.

Pogba - no suggestion he was going to move last window no matter how much money we (or anyone else) threw at it.

Are we in a position where we needed one last piece to complete the puzzle and compete at domestic and european level? No, even if Suarez had stayed we needed  more players to compete due to our european commitments.

Even if we had the money to buy four or five top class talents at 40 million each we would have exceeded our FFP purchase threshold.

So the question is if those players you mentioned weren't coming (and there's no chance in my opinion on three of the four) should we have kept our cash or gone for the next targets on the list?

I wonder if it's got anything to do with the fact we buy 2nd or 3rd level players that aren't coveted by other teams?

It doesn't matter who is doing the choosing, be it the manager, the transfer committee or a DOF, if you are operating within those parameters you will struggle to consistently buy quality. End of.

That's my view on it and it kinda makes this whole thread a moot point for me.

Didn't really have to 'cos I knew the instigator of this thread would be one of the usual suspects, wearing out the keyboard after a defeat for the lads; guess what?
Moot as F**k now mate.

I don't think there can be any dispute that if you buy proven players you increase the chances of a transfer being a success. Why? well because they have already "proven" that they are a good player, kind of stands to reason doesn't it? Similarly, I suppose if you never pay more than 1 million quid for a player you significantly reduce the risk of wasting too much money on a big contract or a wasted transfer fee, because you aren't shelling either one out.

So two pretty obvious "givens" there, which are probably impossible to sensibly argue with (although no doubt someone will). Here's another, our current transfer policy sits somewhere between the opposite ends of the spectrum. By that, I mean we obviously take more of a punt that 1 million quid transfers, but equally we don't compete anywhere near the very top of the market. I think most would accept that this is a necessity, but would like us to nudge towards more often competing for the very top players. Does this make their success a certainty? No, but it significantly increases the chances they'll prosper.

I don't think there can be any dispute that if you buy proven players you increase the chances of a transfer being a success. Why? well because they have already "proven" that they are a good player, kind of stands to reason doesn't it? Similarly, I suppose if you never pay more than 1 million quid for a player you significantly reduce the risk of wasting too much money on a big contract or a wasted transfer fee, because you aren't shelling either one out.

So two pretty obvious "givens" there, which are probably impossible to sensibly argue with (although no doubt someone will). Here's another, our current transfer policy sits somewhere between the opposite ends of the spectrum. By that, I mean we obviously take more of a punt that 1 million quid transfers, but equally we don't compete anywhere near the very top of the market. I think most would accept that this is a necessity, but would like us to nudge towards more often competing for the very top players. Does this make their success a certainty? No, but it significantly increases the chances they'll prosper.

Well another point that's impossible to argue (though I'm guessing someone will) is that our major rivals can afford to outspend us. Partly because of petrodollars, partly becase they have consistently qualified for the big tournaments with big TV money.

Therefore if our strategy is the same as theirs we will always fail because when they buy ie they buy Aguero, we buy a cheaper version of aguero, they buy Fabregas, we buy a cheaper version of Fabregas - the result being that we spend a lot but still end up with an inferior team.

Our only hope is to spend our money in a smarter way than they do.

Fabregas - who would we have dropped to include him? would he have chosen us over Chelsea? (london , mourinho, wages, track recoord of being in the top competitions)

Wasn't my intention to get involved in talking about the individual players as it isn't the point I am trying to make but come on, you've made yourself look stupid with this comment. Do you watch any football? If Adam Lallana can get into the team then i'm fairly certain a player of Fabregas' quality can make it past the likes of Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen into the starting line-up. Can we just accept that Fabregas is a quality player who would have improved us considerably but his status ruled him out completely. would I rather have one Cesc Fabregas than 2 Adam Lallana's? Everyday of the week.

Are we in a position where we needed one last piece to complete the puzzle and compete at domestic and european level? No, even if Suarez had stayed we needed  more players to compete due to our european commitments.

The manager stated quite clearly in the summer that he would rather have 2 or 3 top top players than go out and buy 7-8 squad players with potential. His words not mine.

So the question is if those players you mentioned weren't coming (and there's no chance in my opinion on three of the four) should we have kept our cash or gone for the next targets on the list?

My answer to that is that you are speculating, we wouldnt' get them, they wouldn't come, would have no interest. How do you know? We didn't try, our transfer policy says we won't try. Take Pogba, out of our league i'd say BUT last summer may have been an opportunity to throw a good chunk of the Suarez money at a player who would have bossed our midfield for the next 10 years. There's the plug to fill your Gerrard shaped hole right there. Obviously that ship has sailed now but last summer there may have been an opportunity given the extra funds and the kudos coming off an excellent season.

You have utterly accepted that we cannot compete, should not compete for any of these players. I have not.

Our only hope is to spend our money in a smarter way than they do.

Yep, and smarter (for me) meant spending the added funds from the transfer of Suarez on a couple of players who would (under the transfer restrictions you are alluding to) not normally be available to us.

I think you misread what some are saying, I don't think everyone is saying we must buy all these top stars on huge wages BUT it would improve our chances if the boat was pushed out from time to time to get a player the manager wants. If that player happens to be playing very well at the top level there is a chance they will be coveted by other sides and they may cost more (in transfer and wages) as a result. It doesn't have to be black and white. You make it sound like it is.

I have to ask, are you Tom Werner?

You have utterly accepted that we cannot compete, should not compete for any of these players. I have not.

Based on what?

Money? Our rivals have more than us.

Playing at the top levels? We last won the league around the same time as Everton, we have not qualiied consistently in the Champions league for years.

Mangerial pull? Brendan is a young coach making his reputation.

History? It may be news to you but most players really don't give a F**k. it's the ssame reason they aren't flooding to Ajax or Parma or Marseilles.

But please enlighten us - perhaps I've missed something.

Wasn't my intention to get involved in talking about the individual players as it isn't the point I am trying to make but come on, you've made yourself look stupid with this comment. Do you watch any football? If Adam Lallana can get into the team then i'm fairly certain a player of Fabregas' quality can make it past the likes of Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen into the starting line-up. Can we just accept that Fabregas is a quality player who would have improved us considerably but his status ruled him out completely. would I rather have one Cesc Fabregas than 2 Adam Lallana's? Everyday of the week.

The manager stated quite clearly in the summer that he would rather have 2 or 3 top top players than go out and buy 7-8 squad players with potential. His words not mine.

My answer to that is that you are speculating, we wouldnt' get them, they wouldn't come, would have no interest. How do you know? We didn't try, our transfer policy says we won't try. Take Pogba, out of our league i'd say BUT last summer may have been an opportunity to throw a good chunk of the Suarez money at a player who would have bossed our midfield for the next 10 years. There's the plug to fill your Gerrard shaped hole right there. Obviously that ship has sailed now but last summer there may have been an opportunity given the extra funds and the kudos coming off an excellent season.

The manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

As for me speculating - so are you.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

Based on what?

Money? Our rivals have more than us.

Playing at the top levels? We last won the league around the same time as Everton, we have not qualiied consistently in the Champions league for years.

Mangerial pull? Brendan is a young coach making his reputation.

History? It may be news to you but most players really don't give a f**k. it's the ssame reason they aren't flooding to Ajax or Parma or Marseilles.

But please enlighten us - perhaps I've missed something.


The manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

As for me speculating - so are you.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

I'm not sure about that, we've played without a credible striker for much of the season. Had we got Sanchez for example, I think we'd have had a similar number of points (at least) to Man City.

Yep, and smarter (for me) meant spending the added funds from the transfer of Suarez on a couple of players who would (under the transfer restrictions you are alluding to) not normally be available to us.

I think you misread what some are saying, I don't think everyone is saying we must buy all these top stars on huge wages BUT it would improve our chances if the boat was pushed out from time to time to get a player the manager wants. If that player happens to be playing very well at the top level there is a chance they will be coveted by other sides and they may cost more (in transfer and wages) as a result. It doesn't have to be black and white. You make it sound like it is.

I have to ask, are you Tom Werner?

I think the owners got their fingers badly burnt when Kenny did that with Andy Carroll. Arguably that transfer set us back two years in our development.

The question you have to address is that on one hand you want us to overpay for the manager's preferences but on the other hand don't rate the manager's preferences (ie Lallana - alongside Lovren, Lambert, Allen and Borini all of which we "overpaid" for).

I'm not sure about that, we've played without a credible striker for much of the season. Had we got Sanchez for example, I think we'd have had a similar number of points (at least) to Man City.

Hindsight.

Could easily have been Falcao instead.

Hindsight.

Could easily have been Falcao instead.

Hindsight.

Falcao could easily have turned out to be quite good.

Hindsight.

Falcao could easily have turned out to be quite good.

Which is why you or Scottbot naming X player or Y player is pointless.

We need to decide on which system for recruiting the player will give us the best results.

What we know (with hindsight) is that our current acquisition policy can be improved. This thread is about how to do that.

The question you have to address is that on one hand you want us to overpay for the manager's preferences but on the other hand don't rate the manager's preferences (ie Lallana - alongside Lovren, Lambert, Allen and Borini all of which we "overpaid" for).

You think on an open board (or more open board) that the manager's transfer preferences all played at Southampton last season? I do not.

Maybe a top player would have turned our season around completely by himself assuming he stayed injury-free. But it's unlikely.

I didn't say "by himself", but as Mick pointed out if would/could have helped.

 

e manager can state whatever he wants - perhaps he right but perhaps not. He hasn'tr managed at this level before and, as far as i can see, is still learning about our best approach.

This comment proves it, you are Tom Werner

And you didn't answer what we would do had we missed out oin the transfer - kept our money for the next window or bought a "B" grade player?

Considering "B" grade players are who we are generally in the market for then yeah, I guess so. Or keep the money and buy another B grader the next window. I'd like us to mix it up a bit, go after a top top player from time to time. I don't really understand your issue with this or why you can't see a benefit? (hence the Tom Werner jabs)


I just don't see what is the point of this thread? Our transfer policy (of which you seem to be pretty committed too, in fact you are the forum defender of it) means this talk of a DOF is pretty pointless. You are asking the question would this guy be better at this "B grade" player malarkey than that guy, or those guys. Truth is we can't hope to be much more than a side challenging for 4th with the odd cup run thrown in for good measure under FSG. That's about the size of it.

You think on an open board (or more open board) that the manager's transfer preferences all played at Southampton last season? I do not.

I didn't say "by himself", but as Mick pointed out if would/could have helped.

 
This comment proves it, you are Tom Werner
Considering "B" grade players are who we are generally in the market for then yeah, I guess so. Or keep the money and buy another B grader the next window. I'd like us to mix it up a bit, go after a top top player from time to time. I don't really understand your issue with this or why you can't see a benefit? (hence the Tom Werner jabs)


I just don't see what is the point of this thread? Our transfer policy (of which you seem to be pretty committed too, in fact you are the forum defender of it) means this talk of a DOF is pretty pointless. You are asking the question would this guy be better at this "B grade" player malarkey than that guy, or those guys. Truth is we can't hope to be much more than a side challenging for 4th with the odd cup run thrown in for good measure under FSG. That's about the size of it.

We went for Sanchez - he chose Arsenal.

You complained that we don't back the manager enough to overpay for his targets yet we did exactly that with Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lambert and Lallana - none of whom you seem particularly enamoured with.

If i'm Tom Werner you're Kevin Keegan 

Biggest problem with a DOF for me is that if he buys a player, and the manager doesn't fancy him and is reluctant to use him, then what?

I'd imagine a manager who has personally vouched for a player is far more likely to stick with and develop a player who may turn good.

And then if a DOF-bought player isn't getting picked - who does he go to and have a word with? The DOF probably and this will undermine the manager.  I'm against it in principle.

We just need to buy a lot better.  We've bought too many one season wonders, or players looking decent in otherwise average teams, or we've bought the wrong players from these teams that have had good seasons.

The way we buy players seems to be based on who the media have raved about in the past 3 months - we need to get better people in to identify promising talent rather than buying players for £15M a year after their 'breakthrough' seasons.

Which is why you or Scottbot naming X player or Y player is pointless.

We need to decide on which system for recruiting the player will give us the best results.

What we know (with hindsight) is that our current acquisition policy can be improved. This thread is about how to do that.

It can only be improved if is compromised. Get someone else in operating under the same parameters and we will see (by and large) the same results. It was a recognition of this that had me speaking so passionately in the Sterling contract situation thread but despite recognising our transfer activity isn't the best (hence you starting this thread) you are perhaps the biggest advocate of "sign it or we will wash our hands of you Raheem".

It's bonkers, if you recognise that we are hamstrung, operating at a disadvantage in the transfer window and yet you would rather have us speculating on "B grade" players than dare to consider paying Sterling what is advisors are asking.

You complained that we don't back the manager enough to overpay for his targets yet we did exactly that with Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lambert and Lallana - none of whom you seem particularly enamoured with.

I'm not talking about overpaying though. More often than not players are worth what the market will drive hence we dumped out of the Willian race a couple of season back, not sure who we used the saved money to buy but I daresay it was on a couple or few players that the manager was less keen on. But you're right, we seem to overpay on players that aren't coveted by other teams, one season wonders as JD called them. I'd rather we went after a bit more proven quality of the Sanchez ilk. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like Lallana but I'd rather take Fabregas anyday.

As for Sanchez, yes he is of the calibre we should be aiming for from time to time, absolutely proven, top player, would have been fantastic. What I can't figure out is why once he said no we turned our attentions to the Remys' and the Balotelli's of this world. Brendan's first choices? I don't know, I don't think so.

Biggest problem with a DOF for me is that if he buys a player, and the manager doesn't fancy him and is reluctant to use him, then what?

I'd imagine a manager who has personally vouched for a player is far more likely to stick with and develop a player who may turn good.

And then if a DOF-bought player isn't getting picked - who does he go to and have a word with? The DOF probably and this will undermine the manager.  I'm against it in principle.

We just need to buy a lot better.  We've bought too many one season wonders, or players looking decent in otherwise average teams, or we've bought the wrong players from these teams that have had good seasons.

The way we buy players seems to be based on who the media have raved about in the past 3 months - we need to get better people in to identify promising talent rather than buying players for £15M a year after their 'breakthrough' seasons.

Good post - there are advantages and disadvantages to either system.

It's definitely true that managers get on better with the players they have selected themselves but looking at our recent history, Rafa bought a bunch of players who were on his wavelength but then had no clue ho wto adopt to Woy's genius plans.

Then Kenny came in and had to work out what to do with the likes of Konchesky and subsequently spent a fortune on building a team around Andy Carroll.

First thing Brendan had to do was give him and the other acquisitions the elblow and strat rebuilding the squad in his own image. Arguably we have only just started to do that now - this season was still a "transitional"  year for us because we didn;t know our strongest team, formation, stlye and tactics when the season started.

Maybe there would be conflict between manager and DOF but less change between managers - as Shnks, Paisley, Fagan, Kenny benefited from.

The problem nowadays is that managers don't stick with teams for long periods to build a style and philosophy into the club DNA.

No it's bigger than that.

Even if we had won there have been questions since Brendan arrived about the success of our transfers.

If you're happy with our performance in that regard that's all well and good. Most other fans aren't.

Please don't act like you speak for the majority of Liverpool fans. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't get to speak for "most Liverpool fans."

For the record, the feedback I get from most of my footie friends (these are fans of Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal in particular) is that they are actually envious of a lot of the recent business we have done. They are quite concerned that we will be able to nurture Coutinho, Sterling, Ibe, and Can into genuine world class talents and will reap the rewards for our "shrewd" recruitment policy in the coming seasons....