"Teams have sussed us out. Again."

"Oh, teams have sussed us out"

What's that mean exactly, and why don't we hear it about Spurs, City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc?

Why is it just us who seem to get 'sussed out' after a few months of a system change?

Ok, I realise it's just one league defeat in, a good few, but I bring this up because once again it's reared its head. Lucky to beat Swansea 0-1, I hear after the game, 'Oh, they've sussed us out - keep Couts quiet', or 'teams have figured out how to beat us - bring Liverpool's wingbacks more into play by attacking them'. Or something like that. And again today I hear how teams have sussed us out after the munts beating us. Thing is, I also heard it just before the Gaffer changed our system to a 3 at the back formation and we went on that great unbeaten run of ours.

I also remember something Sam Allardyce said, something along the lines of, it's easier to beat Liverpool because they play one way to win games, whereas Chelsea and City change how they play against the team in front of them in order to secure a win. When I look back to how negative Chelsea can be (park the bus?) and how attacking they can be, it seems to make a bit of sense.

So the question, is do we become too predictable and if so, what's the solution? Because there's only so many systems out there.

Also, and I admit it is easy to say now, but I've never felt comfortable with the wingback formation. I think it's too complicated, asks too much of the wingbacks to bomb forward and get back, especially as we are asking boys (Moreno and Sterling) to do it. It also leaves us light in midfield - it shouldn't, but does.

We almost won the league using the diamond formation and really only changed it because Suarez left. So let's use it again, with Lucas holding, Can and Hendo pressing, Couts behind Sturridge and Sterling and you have four at the back again. But most importantly, you have the defensive midfielder holding again.

We almost won the league using the diamond formation and really only changed it because Suarez left. So let's use it again, with Lucas holding, Can and Hendo pressing, Couts behind Sturridge and Sterling and you have four at the back again. But most importantly, you have the defensive midfielder holding again.

What would we do about the backline though? 3 at the back has gotten the best out of Skrtel and Sakho defensively. We don't have solid enough fullbacks, either. Moreno's defending needs a lot of work, Enrique is missing, Johnson is well passed it, Manquillo is inexperienced and Flanagan is just coming back from a long injury layoff.

What would we do about the backline though? 3 at the back has gotten the best out of Skrtel and Sakho defensively. We don't have solid enough fullbacks, either. Moreno's defending needs a lot of work, Enrique is missing, Johnson is well passed it, Manquillo is inexperienced and Flanagan is just coming back from a long injury layoff.

I think Johnson and Enrique can do a job there for now.

Another thing with this wingback 3 in defence formation is

Can is not a defender
Markovic is not a wingback
Lallana is not a wingback
Sterling is not a wingback

A good few players are playing out of position.

At least with a diamond Johnson, Enrique, Manquillo, and Flannagan are fullbacks.

I don't think teams have sussed us out more a case of players out of position have been sussed out

Sterling and Lallana are wingbacks? Cool, attack them then, and when you get passed Sterling, remember that Can isn't a defender either.

We have boys playing out of position at wingback, at least Enrique and Johnson are seasoned in fullback positions.

Hard to play any tactic when the lads can't find a pass. No pressure from midfield without the ball will expose us.

All down to attitude and off the ball performance past couple games. Where has our pressing game gone in those games? The willingness to bomb forward? We have had a weeks break between games now and the performances have dropped alarmingly.

Not going to blame the tactics yet. Not until we see the lads actually put in more than 20 minutes of effort in a match.

Just cause we loose, doesn't mean we've been sussed out. Who knows what would've happened had SG not got carded. Could've won 3-1 Poor in first half alright, but we've not been at our best in the previous two games either. Maybe have a slight dip, just need to get back on the horse now..

Hard to play any tactic when the lads can't find a pass. No pressure from midfield without the ball will expose us.

All down to attitude and off the ball performance past couple games. Where has our pressing game gone in those games? The willingness to bomb forward? We have had a weeks break between games now and the performances have dropped alarmingly.

Not going to blame the tactics yet. Not until we see the lads actually put in more than 20 minutes of effort in a match.

Problem I have with your theory of there being no effort was that was the enemy. The Enemy. If you can't find the effort against the munts then you won't find it against any team on the planet. Sure when Gerrard comes on and goes off after a few seconds you might think it's not our day, but the problem there is we started playing better when he went off.

I still think it was the formation that lost it for us. Just two in midfield against Fellatio who is hitting some form, Carrick, Herrera and Mata was going to be a tough ask all day. Once you boss the midfield you cut the supply to Couts and that's never a good thing.

1 up front is more suited for away, not at home.

Like today more important games ahead, we cannot afford  to slip up in these vital games, like last season, otherwise all will come to nothing. Disappointing first half, Gerrard's sending off very unfair in my view, but with away games at Arsenal and Chelsea, I fear the Reds have a mountain to climb to qualify for the champions league tbh.

Like today more important games ahead, we cannot afford  to slip up in these vital games, like last season, otherwise all will come to nothing. Disappointing first half, Gerrard's sending off very unfair in my view, but with away games at Arsenal and Chelsea, I fear the Reds have a mountain to climb to qualify for the champions league tbh.

Gerrard sending off very unfair?

A deliberate stamp on an opposition player is a straight red card mate. There's no other way of looking at that incident.

I stand corrected mate, so frustrated losing to the Mancs, in such an important game.

Decent Op Rushie, plenty of debate in it that's for sure. I'm not completely sure of your view though, your opening post suggest those that shouted 'we've been Sussed out' (I was/am one of them!) are talking rubbish but then you go on to say that. You don't much like the formation and that it is what cost us the game today so that comes across as contradictory to me.

As for Crouchies that our lads didn't try hard enough or didn't want it enough, not for me, that's the sort of stuff that gets spouted on talk sport phone ins. No issues with effort level put there today. As for our pressing game, we tried, you only have to watch the opening 15 minutes but our lads couldn't get near them, they made the pitch very big by playing deep, wide and high, they moved it. Quickly. And always seemed to have a spare man. That suggests to me that the problems were more to do with how we were set up rather than any lack of effort from the players to win it back high up the pitch.

As for why I think this formation has been Sussed out:

- For many games no one seemed to be able to plan for, or to defend against us since the switch. We've largely bossed games in terms of possession and have been able to get Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling etc on the ball in dangerous areas (usually between the lines) and have created overloads all over the pitch.

- Blackburn were the first team to set up, play a high line but without selling themselves by actually trying to win the ball back of our centre-halves. They simple filled space, kept good angles, had eyes in the backs of their head and screened our midfielders. The result was we struggled to create, struggled to get quality ball into our skill players and Studge (in particular) became isolated.

- I said in the tactics thread after that game that others would employ the same tactics and that is what has happened.  First Swansea and then again today.

- The mancs did exactly same. They simply clogged the middle, screened anything into feet and were happy enough to let our two lads out wide have the ball. Especially Moreno, the lad has a good cross on him BUT he is woefully one footed (perhaps even more so than Jonny Riise) so the minute you shrink his angles and get a bit of pressure on him he gives you a mistake. And because he is playing wide on his own he does not have the advantage of an overlapping full-back to drag markers away and create space (plus give him an outside option). Sam applies to Sakho in some ways, he is a fine passer of the ball WHEN he has time on the ball but take away his options and press him and he is prone to mistakes as we have seen before so it wasn't ideal with the two of them out there today. Moreno's struggles had/have an impact on Sakho.

- The idea of this formation is that we are the ones doing all the pressing and shortening the pitch when the oppo have the ball. Today it was the other way around and it was the same on. I day night until Brendan switched things around at half-time.

- I would have started with Sterling up top today because at least he offers a genuine threat in behind with his pace and. Can offer an out ball when teams squeeze up. Studge can too but he is still well short for me.

- I'm not saying the system is done and dusted but it needs tweaking. It's alright saying 'this is how we're gonna play and it's up to you to deal with it' BUT when it becomes apparent that there is a way to counter act it then that is when changes should be made, why be predictable. It could be as simple as playing a midfield diamond as on Monday in the 2nd half. It could be giving Balo a start up top with Studge but still keeping the three at the back, or perhaps even Sterling up there. Or maybe jump back to a flat four for a game or two. Something has to give as usual the match thread was full of 'pick a player who isn't playing well then state equivalent player who happens to be on bench and claim that that would have made the difference. It was about the set up in that first half. They played really well, there is no denying that but I felt the gaffer made it easy for them.

There's no contradiction in my OP. I was saying I tend to agree that our system has been sussed out. I suppose the point I was making (in frustration) was why does it only seem to be our team that other managers get to grips with? I'm not saying it's nonsense our system has been sussed out, I'm asking if so, why so.

My point is, if City lose a game or play poorly, they don't change system, neither do Arsenal, or Chelsea, or certainly not as much we seem to do lately. We've gone diamond --> the one at season's start --> Back 3.

Let's stick to a core way of playing (diamond for me) and tweak that for the games we play, instead of making large changes to the formation and as a result, players' positions and in about 4 of 5 instances, playing players out of position.

Good OP.

One of our strengths is being able to change our formation and tactics between halves let alone from game to game.

The diamond is still an option but playing Sterling and Sturridge up front doesn't make up for the deficiencies in the same way as having Suarez and Sturridge there.

Good OP.

One of our strengths is being able to change our formation and tactics between halves let alone from game to game.

The diamond is still an option but playing Sterling and Sturridge up front doesn't make up for the deficiencies in the same way as having Suarez and Sturridge there.

Very true HB

The less I say about Sterling the better - at least it'll be better for my blood pressure. I'm probably being a bit impulsive because I keep thinking about his wage demands, and regardless of how much he actually is asking, unless it's below £60k a week, it's too much.

Still, today's defeat wasn't down to Sterling or any one player. I guess if I think about it, I have to point the finger at Gerrard. It was obvious we were being swallowed up in midfield, so he stuck Gerrard there as an extra body and within 25 seconds he raised the crowd, got a great first tackle in and sprayed a great ball out wide. In fact he did more in that time than a lot of the players did all the first half. It's a pity he only lasted another 3 seconds. I don't mind admitting it but I think once Gerrard walked, we never going to get 3 points or even 1

Good OP I don't think the opposition have sussed us out more like we have become too predictable and lost our mobility which was what has kept the opposition on their toes.

The other thing that is having a detrimental effect is the shoehorning of Lallana into the side meaning Sterling having to play as wingback, not only has Lallana been poor recently but the double whammy is we have lost the potency of Sterling running at defenders from the Middle of the pitch.

It's a bit worrying that we've not been at our best for 3 games in a row now but I think it's to do with the players as much as anything.

Sterling and Lallana played a massive role in our revival as part of the front three but now Sturridge is back they are both being shifted about all over the place and both seem to have lost form in a bad way. Markovic and Ibe both had excellent spells at wing back but now one's injured and the other is playing awfully. Same can be said of Moreno. Can was boss when he came in at CB, but after being moved forward a couple of times he's suddenly started making sloppy errors at the back.

Since City at the beginning of the month I think there's no doubt that we've declined, the fact we avoided defeat for another 3 games masked it until today. Doesn't matter what tweaks we make to the system if some of the lads don't pull their finger out and get back to where they were a few weeks ago.

It's a bit worrying that we've not been at our best for 3 games in a row now but I think it's to do with the players as much as anything.

Sterling and Lallana played a massive role in our revival as part of the front three but now Sturridge is back they are both being shifted about all over the place and both seem to have lost form in a bad way. Markovic and Ibe both had excellent spells at wing back but now one's injured and the other is playing awfully. Same can be said of Moreno. Can was boss when he came in at CB, but after being moved forward a couple of times he's suddenly started making sloppy errors at the back.

Since City at the beginning of the month I think there's no doubt that we've declined, the fact we avoided defeat for another 3 games masked it until today. Doesn't matter what tweaks we make to the system if some of the lads don't pull their finger out and get back to where they were a few weeks ago.

I think since the loss of Lucas, our performances hasn't been that great. We haven't looked like a team that's dominate and comfortable in possession apart from that 1 game vs Man City, that's about it?

Said it lathe la st few seasons and will say it again; naïveté is our biggest problem in the team.

Absolutely shocking play from the Captain who should have known better. If we are easy to suss out that is why.

Beaten once this year by a UTD team that had their best 1st half of the season. On a day when our best were piss poor. Well beaten.

Doesnt mean we have been found out. Would stick with this and expect better from our players.

Contract talks are F***ing annoying when players perform that bad.

Have teams 'sussed us out' though or are we just playing poorly?

I genuinely ask because I haven't seen us play in recent weeks but it seems Brendan is getting praise one minute for finding a solution to our early season form and now that we've hit a mini blip teams have sussed us out.

Good OP by the way Rush but I'm just not sure it's as simple as that.

Have teams only "sussed us out" since Sterling was shunted wide and Sturridge was starting?
Or
Has LVG, who claimed 3-4-3 as his formation, just got a lot of experience and knowledge of the formation?

Bit of both?

we havent played well for 3 games now...