"Teams have sussed us out. Again."

"Oh, teams have sussed us out"

What's that mean exactly, and why don't we hear it about Spurs, City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc?

Why is it just us who seem to get 'sussed out' after a few months of a system change?

Ok, I realise it's just one league defeat in, a good few, but I bring this up because once again it's reared its head. Lucky to beat Swansea 0-1, I hear after the game, 'Oh, they've sussed us out - keep Couts quiet', or 'teams have figured out how to beat us - bring Liverpool's wingbacks more into play by attacking them'. Or something like that. And again today I hear how teams have sussed us out after the munts beating us. Thing is, I also heard it just before the Gaffer changed our system to a 3 at the back formation and we went on that great unbeaten run of ours.

I also remember something Sam Allardyce said, something along the lines of, it's easier to beat Liverpool because they play one way to win games, whereas Chelsea and City change how they play against the team in front of them in order to secure a win. When I look back to how negative Chelsea can be (park the bus?) and how attacking they can be, it seems to make a bit of sense.

So the question, is do we become too predictable and if so, what's the solution? Because there's only so many systems out there.

Also, and I admit it is easy to say now, but I've never felt comfortable with the wingback formation. I think it's too complicated, asks too much of the wingbacks to bomb forward and get back, especially as we are asking boys (Moreno and Sterling) to do it. It also leaves us light in midfield - it shouldn't, but does.

We almost won the league using the diamond formation and really only changed it because Suarez left. So let's use it again, with Lucas holding, Can and Hendo pressing, Couts behind Sturridge and Sterling and you have four at the back again. But most importantly, you have the defensive midfielder holding again.

We almost won the league using the diamond formation and really only changed it because Suarez left. So let's use it again, with Lucas holding, Can and Hendo pressing, Couts behind Sturridge and Sterling and you have four at the back again. But most importantly, you have the defensive midfielder holding again.

What would we do about the backline though? 3 at the back has gotten the best out of Skrtel and Sakho defensively. We don't have solid enough fullbacks, either. Moreno's defending needs a lot of work, Enrique is missing, Johnson is well passed it, Manquillo is inexperienced and Flanagan is just coming back from a long injury layoff.

What would we do about the backline though? 3 at the back has gotten the best out of Skrtel and Sakho defensively. We don't have solid enough fullbacks, either. Moreno's defending needs a lot of work, Enrique is missing, Johnson is well passed it, Manquillo is inexperienced and Flanagan is just coming back from a long injury layoff.

I think Johnson and Enrique can do a job there for now.

Another thing with this wingback 3 in defence formation is

Can is not a defender
Markovic is not a wingback
Lallana is not a wingback
Sterling is not a wingback

A good few players are playing out of position.

At least with a diamond Johnson, Enrique, Manquillo, and Flannagan are fullbacks.

I don't think teams have sussed us out more a case of players out of position have been sussed out

Sterling and Lallana are wingbacks? Cool, attack them then, and when you get passed Sterling, remember that Can isn't a defender either.

We have boys playing out of position at wingback, at least Enrique and Johnson are seasoned in fullback positions.

Hard to play any tactic when the lads can't find a pass. No pressure from midfield without the ball will expose us.

All down to attitude and off the ball performance past couple games. Where has our pressing game gone in those games? The willingness to bomb forward? We have had a weeks break between games now and the performances have dropped alarmingly.

Not going to blame the tactics yet. Not until we see the lads actually put in more than 20 minutes of effort in a match.

Just cause we loose, doesn't mean we've been sussed out. Who knows what would've happened had SG not got carded. Could've won 3-1 Poor in first half alright, but we've not been at our best in the previous two games either. Maybe have a slight dip, just need to get back on the horse now..

Hard to play any tactic when the lads can't find a pass. No pressure from midfield without the ball will expose us.

All down to attitude and off the ball performance past couple games. Where has our pressing game gone in those games? The willingness to bomb forward? We have had a weeks break between games now and the performances have dropped alarmingly.

Not going to blame the tactics yet. Not until we see the lads actually put in more than 20 minutes of effort in a match.

Problem I have with your theory of there being no effort was that was the enemy. The Enemy. If you can't find the effort against the munts then you won't find it against any team on the planet. Sure when Gerrard comes on and goes off after a few seconds you might think it's not our day, but the problem there is we started playing better when he went off.

I still think it was the formation that lost it for us. Just two in midfield against Fellatio who is hitting some form, Carrick, Herrera and Mata was going to be a tough ask all day. Once you boss the midfield you cut the supply to Couts and that's never a good thing.

1 up front is more suited for away, not at home.

Like today more important games ahead, we cannot afford  to slip up in these vital games, like last season, otherwise all will come to nothing. Disappointing first half, Gerrard's sending off very unfair in my view, but with away games at Arsenal and Chelsea, I fear the Reds have a mountain to climb to qualify for the champions league tbh.

Like today more important games ahead, we cannot afford  to slip up in these vital games, like last season, otherwise all will come to nothing. Disappointing first half, Gerrard's sending off very unfair in my view, but with away games at Arsenal and Chelsea, I fear the Reds have a mountain to climb to qualify for the champions league tbh.

Gerrard sending off very unfair?

A deliberate stamp on an opposition player is a straight red card mate. There's no other way of looking at that incident.

I stand corrected mate, so frustrated losing to the Mancs, in such an important game.

Decent Op Rushie, plenty of debate in it that's for sure. I'm not completely sure of your view though, your opening post suggest those that shouted 'we've been Sussed out' (I was/am one of them!) are talking rubbish but then you go on to say that. You don't much like the formation and that it is what cost us the game today so that comes across as contradictory to me.

As for Crouchies that our lads didn't try hard enough or didn't want it enough, not for me, that's the sort of stuff that gets spouted on talk sport phone ins. No issues with effort level put there today. As for our pressing game, we tried, you only have to watch the opening 15 minutes but our lads couldn't get near them, they made the pitch very big by playing deep, wide and high, they moved it. Quickly. And always seemed to have a spare man. That suggests to me that the problems were more to do with how we were set up rather than any lack of effort from the players to win it back high up the pitch.

As for why I think this formation has been Sussed out:

- For many games no one seemed to be able to plan for, or to defend against us since the switch. We've largely bossed games in terms of possession and have been able to get Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling etc on the ball in dangerous areas (usually between the lines) and have created overloads all over the pitch.

- Blackburn were the first team to set up, play a high line but without selling themselves by actually trying to win the ball back of our centre-halves. They simple filled space, kept good angles, had eyes in the backs of their head and screened our midfielders. The result was we struggled to create, struggled to get quality ball into our skill players and Studge (in particular) became isolated.

- I said in the tactics thread after that game that others would employ the same tactics and that is what has happened.  First Swansea and then again today.

- The mancs did exactly same. They simply clogged the middle, screened anything into feet and were happy enough to let our two lads out wide have the ball. Especially Moreno, the lad has a good cross on him BUT he is woefully one footed (perhaps even more so than Jonny Riise) so the minute you shrink his angles and get a bit of pressure on him he gives you a mistake. And because he is playing wide on his own he does not have the advantage of an overlapping full-back to drag markers away and create space (plus give him an outside option). Sam applies to Sakho in some ways, he is a fine passer of the ball WHEN he has time on the ball but take away his options and press him and he is prone to mistakes as we have seen before so it wasn't ideal with the two of them out there today. Moreno's struggles had/have an impact on Sakho.

- The idea of this formation is that we are the ones doing all the pressing and shortening the pitch when the oppo have the ball. Today it was the other way around and it was the same on. I day night until Brendan switched things around at half-time.

- I would have started with Sterling up top today because at least he offers a genuine threat in behind with his pace and. Can offer an out ball when teams squeeze up. Studge can too but he is still well short for me.

- I'm not saying the system is done and dusted but it needs tweaking. It's alright saying 'this is how we're gonna play and it's up to you to deal with it' BUT when it becomes apparent that there is a way to counter act it then that is when changes should be made, why be predictable. It could be as simple as playing a midfield diamond as on Monday in the 2nd half. It could be giving Balo a start up top with Studge but still keeping the three at the back, or perhaps even Sterling up there. Or maybe jump back to a flat four for a game or two. Something has to give as usual the match thread was full of 'pick a player who isn't playing well then state equivalent player who happens to be on bench and claim that that would have made the difference. It was about the set up in that first half. They played really well, there is no denying that but I felt the gaffer made it easy for them.

There's no contradiction in my OP. I was saying I tend to agree that our system has been sussed out. I suppose the point I was making (in frustration) was why does it only seem to be our team that other managers get to grips with? I'm not saying it's nonsense our system has been sussed out, I'm asking if so, why so.

My point is, if City lose a game or play poorly, they don't change system, neither do Arsenal, or Chelsea, or certainly not as much we seem to do lately. We've gone diamond --> the one at season's start --> Back 3.

Let's stick to a core way of playing (diamond for me) and tweak that for the games we play, instead of making large changes to the formation and as a result, players' positions and in about 4 of 5 instances, playing players out of position.

Good OP.

One of our strengths is being able to change our formation and tactics between halves let alone from game to game.

The diamond is still an option but playing Sterling and Sturridge up front doesn't make up for the deficiencies in the same way as having Suarez and Sturridge there.

Good OP.

One of our strengths is being able to change our formation and tactics between halves let alone from game to game.

The diamond is still an option but playing Sterling and Sturridge up front doesn't make up for the deficiencies in the same way as having Suarez and Sturridge there.

Very true HB

The less I say about Sterling the better - at least it'll be better for my blood pressure. I'm probably being a bit impulsive because I keep thinking about his wage demands, and regardless of how much he actually is asking, unless it's below £60k a week, it's too much.

Still, today's defeat wasn't down to Sterling or any one player. I guess if I think about it, I have to point the finger at Gerrard. It was obvious we were being swallowed up in midfield, so he stuck Gerrard there as an extra body and within 25 seconds he raised the crowd, got a great first tackle in and sprayed a great ball out wide. In fact he did more in that time than a lot of the players did all the first half. It's a pity he only lasted another 3 seconds. I don't mind admitting it but I think once Gerrard walked, we never going to get 3 points or even 1

Good OP I don't think the opposition have sussed us out more like we have become too predictable and lost our mobility which was what has kept the opposition on their toes.

The other thing that is having a detrimental effect is the shoehorning of Lallana into the side meaning Sterling having to play as wingback, not only has Lallana been poor recently but the double whammy is we have lost the potency of Sterling running at defenders from the Middle of the pitch.

It's a bit worrying that we've not been at our best for 3 games in a row now but I think it's to do with the players as much as anything.

Sterling and Lallana played a massive role in our revival as part of the front three but now Sturridge is back they are both being shifted about all over the place and both seem to have lost form in a bad way. Markovic and Ibe both had excellent spells at wing back but now one's injured and the other is playing awfully. Same can be said of Moreno. Can was boss when he came in at CB, but after being moved forward a couple of times he's suddenly started making sloppy errors at the back.

Since City at the beginning of the month I think there's no doubt that we've declined, the fact we avoided defeat for another 3 games masked it until today. Doesn't matter what tweaks we make to the system if some of the lads don't pull their finger out and get back to where they were a few weeks ago.

It's a bit worrying that we've not been at our best for 3 games in a row now but I think it's to do with the players as much as anything.

Sterling and Lallana played a massive role in our revival as part of the front three but now Sturridge is back they are both being shifted about all over the place and both seem to have lost form in a bad way. Markovic and Ibe both had excellent spells at wing back but now one's injured and the other is playing awfully. Same can be said of Moreno. Can was boss when he came in at CB, but after being moved forward a couple of times he's suddenly started making sloppy errors at the back.

Since City at the beginning of the month I think there's no doubt that we've declined, the fact we avoided defeat for another 3 games masked it until today. Doesn't matter what tweaks we make to the system if some of the lads don't pull their finger out and get back to where they were a few weeks ago.

I think since the loss of Lucas, our performances hasn't been that great. We haven't looked like a team that's dominate and comfortable in possession apart from that 1 game vs Man City, that's about it?

Said it lathe la st few seasons and will say it again; naïveté is our biggest problem in the team.

Absolutely shocking play from the Captain who should have known better. If we are easy to suss out that is why.

Beaten once this year by a UTD team that had their best 1st half of the season. On a day when our best were piss poor. Well beaten.

Doesnt mean we have been found out. Would stick with this and expect better from our players.

Contract talks are F***ing annoying when players perform that bad.

Have teams 'sussed us out' though or are we just playing poorly?

I genuinely ask because I haven't seen us play in recent weeks but it seems Brendan is getting praise one minute for finding a solution to our early season form and now that we've hit a mini blip teams have sussed us out.

Good OP by the way Rush but I'm just not sure it's as simple as that.

Have teams only "sussed us out" since Sterling was shunted wide and Sturridge was starting?
Or
Has LVG, who claimed 3-4-3 as his formation, just got a lot of experience and knowledge of the formation?

Bit of both?

we havent played well for 3 games now...

Chelsea are scraping wins atm, have they been sussed too, or is it the time of the year when teams are stepping up.a level to fight for survival and places.

Sussed us out?

I'm not sure, mainly with the terminology rather than the tactical thought behind it.

For me tactically 'sussing us out' is a media term which is not simply allocated for us solely whatsoever but we as fans simply only listen to with open ears stuff about us because I can think of countless times that the same has been thrown by the media against Arsenal or recently with City when playing their two up top in 'big games' .. Also the media love using it when droning on about England etc

You know what? Tactics are very important but it ultimately comes down to the level of your players, either in their overall ability or their performances on the given day. England could use almost any tactic in the world but ultimately be shown up by better players.

On us? I personally think we have a very forward thinking coach in terms  of tactics, he has used countless formations in his time here.. We were just sh*te yesterday, we just didn't get going for half an hour, yes we can look tactics but to be honest had we played the diamond yesterday and Utd started how they did them F**k, who knows but still we may well have not been any different because on the day they played better than us.

Any tactic can be 'worked out' for me.. You can stop any tactic working if you concentrate on stopping that way of playing, like Blackburn did recently, but they hardly took it to us because they don't have the players.. Utd do.
We made seasons and memories with Rafa off of stopping others tactics working but having the world class Torres/Gerrard to make the difference in moments to win us games.

Last season we could have played essentially how we wanted tactically as we had a player at the top of his game to force us onto oppositions.. The players are more important than the formation. However hand in hand makes the perfect combination of the whole package.

We are used to in the last two seasons dictating games, Utd didn't let us dictate the game yesterday, they stopped us playing, they sat so tight to Allen and Henderson that it squeezed us from playing short and through them to playing long and disjointed. They played a similar formation but on the day their players were better as much as that hurts to say.

You should always have different formations and approaches to games up your sleeve but if the players don't go out there and put it together, against other good sides especially.. Then you lose the game. It's a game with two sides playing, ultimately you have to accept that, you don't just get to run roughshot over the other side.. Not all the time, it doesn't work like that.

Don't think we've been "sussed out" at all but the original set up has been watered down somewhat due to injuries and therefore we aren't as much a threat from it as we were.

We had Lucas sitting, providing our back line with better protection, meaning Jordan could play a little further ahead.  He linked magnificently with Sakho and Cou but also covered for Morenos lack of defensive nouse meaning he was further up the pitch giving us additional width.

Marko or Ibe on the right.  Marko being the better defender so giving more protection for Can, allowing him to go on his marauding runs.  Ibe gave us more of an attacking threat and width which meant more space through the middle.

Cou and Lallana behind Raheem who played the lone striker role better than Studge does (not as clinical) but he occupied the defenders due to his pace, again opening up space for others.  It's no surprise that Lallanas goals have dried up since Studge came back into the team.  Or that we've been struggling to score enough since Raheem was moved to WB.

Thankfully by the time we play Arsenal those injured should be back and we can get back to something like we were when we beat Spurs, Southampton and City.

Problem with our current formation is that only Ibe has shown the ability to play the wingback role so if we are not pinning the opposition in their half it makes our midfield so much easier to dominate.

If we are to persist with this formation that would be an area to look at next year. But I feel Rodgers preferred system is the 433 so it may be different next year with another top class forward.

WE just need to evolve again unless your a top team like Barca or Madrid,Munich etc teams can make their life easier by nulling what we do best which was fast attacking passing football.

a team stops coutinho playing and defend tight we just cant figure out what to do and that's down to not having many top experianced clever players. We will learn from it and grow

Problem with our current formation is that only Ibe has shown the ability to play the wingback role so if we are not pinning the opposition in their half it makes our midfield so much easier to dominate.

If we are to persist with this formation that would be an area to look at next year. But I feel Rodgers preferred system is the 433 so it may be different next year with another top class forward.

Failure to buy the right forward has crippled us this season.
Balotelli & Borini will need to be shifted in order to get somebody that suits.

Good OP mate, plenty to discuss.

As others have said, I don't think we've been sussed out as I don't believe in that term. What has happened is that there has been a change in personnel and players like Sterling, who has been so effective as lone striker, or AM at worst, has been moved around. Add to it that Lucas is out, meaning Allen, who is not as consistent, can often be exposed.

Compare that to Chelsea or Arsenal for example, they don't actually change their formation or line up too often. Chelsea have built their system on a very solid defensive foundation. It's their attacking players who are more fluid in terms of supplementing the defensive line up, or becoming more attacking depending on the game. Arsenal have always been more attacking, but the difference is, in players like Cazorla, Ozil and Ramsay, they have very versatile players who can unlock defences. We only have Couts who has the individual ability to do that.

On top of the injury enforced changes, I think there has been a drop in the intensity of of our pressing game lately. Can't put my finger on why or what it is exactly, but we used to hound the opposition earlier in the year when we didn't have the ball. That's been missing a little in the past few games and we need that back.

Have teams 'sussed us out' though or are we just playing poorly?

I genuinely ask because I haven't seen us play in recent weeks but it seems Brendan is getting praise one minute for finding a solution to our early season form and now that we've hit a mini blip teams have sussed us out.

Good OP by the way Rush but I'm just not sure it's as simple as that.

Up until yesterday, and I said as much going into the game that I thought our form had dipped from being on top of the crest of a wave heading down into a trough. We weren't convincing against Blackburn and Swansea.

Yesterday though, (with hindsight of course) I think our formation came a little unstuck for the first time. I think they had developed a game-plan to beat us tactically. I don't think this was the case with Blackburn or Swansea though. The Mancs, for me did their homework on us and countered any perceived issues from us.

They settled quicker and got on the ball, pressed higher and swarmed us in midfield. Henderson and Allen eventually dropped off deeper and conceded possession with them gaining territory as much as possession. It seemed they consistently outnumbered us in midfield from all angles and pressed in packs - where we could only do this in the main with a lone player - as we were at times that deep. Individually, I don't think Lallana not Moreno helped our causes in midfield, Lallana cause he couldn't help fight the battle to win the right to play, and Moreno purely because he was awful in every aspect of his game. Henderson and Allen, were chasing shadows for the most part and weren't impressive themselves (IMO).

I wouldn't say we've been found out, although I think the Mancs to extent did yesterday and others can take note - but I think it was coupled with our downward trough in performance too. IMHO of course.

The weakness yesterday was as much mental as any tactical deficiency. None of our players, bar Sahko, performed to a suitable standard individually. Moreno, Lallana and Allen were powder puff players in the first half. Sturridge and Henderson were poor, too.

The team appeared inhibited by the huge occasion - against our massive rivals with the chance to leapfrog them into 4th spot for the first time this season. It isn't surprising considering there was no real leader out there to guide them through a bad start. Besides Sahko.

I wouldn't write off this system this season. It will still beat most of our remaining opponents and tends to give us better defensive solidity. If, however, the players freeze on the day then no system will solve that. The manager needs to work harder on their mental approach to a decisive game. We can still beat Arsenal if each of the players handle the pressure of the match and Sterling is put in his proper position. The attitude/performance away to Chelsea in the cup is what we need to produce at Arsenal... with the same system.

How many of our players would walk into the top teams in Britain, let alone Europe?

Sturridge doesn't look fit. Sterling is still developing. The rest are just solid players. Certainly not world class, most aren't even intl class. Caan has loads of potential, as does Ibe. Maybe Cou and some of the defenders. Henderson is solid, honest but I just dont get the hype.

But how many of our players do Man C, Chelsea even the Mancs or Arsenal think "wow I'd love to have him in MY team"? Back in 09, we had lots who would get envious looks from Barce, Real and everywhere. Nowadays, it looks like all the family silver is gone.

So I'm not surprised when we lose to those hideous Mancs.

How many of our players would walk into the top teams in Britain, let alone Europe?

Sturridge doesn't look fit. Sterling is still developing. The rest are just solid players. Certainly not world class, most aren't even intl class. Caan has loads of potential, as does Ibe. Maybe Cou and some of the defenders. Henderson is solid, honest but I just dont get the hype.

But how many of our players do Man C, Chelsea even the Mancs or Arsenal think "wow I'd love to have him in MY team"? Back in 09, we had lots who would get envious looks from Barce, Real and everywhere. Nowadays, it looks like all the family silver is gone.

So I'm not surprised when we lose to those hideous Mancs.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

We have the basis of a very good squad.. If you could and you added a world class star or two to this squad as we had in Luis last season then it's shown what it can achieve.

It's a shame we can't add those calibre of player

Teams have not sussed us out, we have just hit a wee blip, and played crap past 2 games in the 1st half. Got away with it v the swans, but mancs are now playing with confidence and we got done.

Simples.

We move on, and sterling is playing crap since he went to play on the wing again, taking a while fitting studger back into the system.

Teams have not sussed us out, we have just hit a wee blip, and played crap past 2 games in the 1st half. Got away with it v the swans, but mancs are now playing with confidence and we got done.

Simples.

We move on, and sterling is playing crap since he went to play on the wing again, taking a while fitting studger back into the system.

And he's injured again

The beating of LFC  is the Atkinson factor.

I've always maintained the thought that we need more grit within the team. We need more leaders and more experience. There is little point trying to nurture a team of kids when there are few senior figures to look up to. The kids need an example to go by, so I wouldn't mind us seeing some experienced faces come the summer.

Our system is not outdated or too predictable - United were just the better team on the day. They bullied us off the park, if you like. Fellaini and Blind would not give our players a moment of peace, enabling Mata to exploit acres of yard in behind our midfield. There was no link between midfield and defence. United had exploited this area on the pitch and we not just found it difficult to track their runners, but to also pass it out of defence. This is where the likes of Lucas would have made a good impact. Tactically he is our most sound player and tends to have a very good reading of the game.

I would have gone with the following..

         Coutinho  Hendo
                   Lucas
Moreno Sakho Skrtel Johnson

We need more experience within the team. I would like to see Lucas start against Arsenal. I'm expecting an easier game too.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

Off topic but for me, Coutinho walks into any PL side in the league. Sturridge does too. Lucas and Sakho's are both maybes and then I'm struggling after that.

Mignolet is your average goalie and even that's being kind to him. He has improved in recent weeks but still miles away from being a top keeper.

Can looks a prospect but is a little rough around the edges. One for the future certainly.

Skrtel has never established himself as one of the leagues best CB's in my opinion. The likes of Vidic, Terry and even our own Caragher have been heads and shoulders above him.

Lovren and Johnson are dog sh*t. Nothing more needs to be said.

Sterling a fine young prospect but nothing more just yet. The likes of Hazard and Sanchez who play similar roles for their clubs are better players than Raheem right now. Maybe he will reach that level one day but he isn't there yet. Same with Ibe and Markovic.

Gerrards passed his best, still bags of quality but not the player he was.

Henderson, Lallana & Allen are your average midfielders too. All capable of working hard and that can win you games at times like we saw against City. We had more pace and energy than they did and it worked for us. But when you need a player to grab hold of a game by the scruff of the neck or you need somebody to come up with a bit of quality, none of Henderson, Lallana or Allen enter my head.  Im probably being a bit harsh on Hendo because he has shown glimpses on some occasions but even so, he wouldn't get a game for any of the teams above us. Lallana, Henderson and Allen make up probably the most basic Liverpool midfield I've ever seen in my life.

To summarise we have some very good players but not many you can consider world class. Don't get me wrong id rather have a team of players who will give it 100% each week than a bunch of individuals but I do worry about the lack of class we have sometimes compared to those around us. Im not sure our rivals would take our players given the opportunity but we would certainly take theirs. I do genuinely believe we have a manager and a squad that will challenge for the league title in the next season or so but there will be several games we can't unlock a tight defence or score a 30 yard screamer and win the game because we lack quality.

I'm getting fed up watching Chelsea, Arsenal, City, United play sh*t week in week out but then a moment of quality from one of their 'superstars' wins the match. It seems to happen all the time.  We don't have as many 'match winners' as they do.

I've always maintained the thought that we need more grit within the team. We need more leaders and more experience. There is little point trying to nurture a team of kids when there are few senior figures to look up to. The kids need an example to go by, so I wouldn't mind us seeing some experienced faces come the summer.

Our system is not outdated or too predictable - United were just the better team on the day. They bullied us off the park, if you like. Fellaini and Blind would not give our players a moment of peace, enabling Mata to exploit acres of yard in behind our midfield. There was no link between midfield and defence. United had exploited this area on the pitch and we not just found it difficult to track their runners, but to also pass it out of defence. This is where the likes of Lucas would have made a good impact. Tactically he is our most sound player and tends to have a very good reading of the game.

I would have gone with the following..

         Coutinho  Hendo
                   Lucas
Moreno Sakho Skrtel Johnson

We need more experience within the team. I would like to see Lucas start against Arsenal. I'm expecting an easier game too.

I completely agree with the leadership aspect. Stevie will not play too many games now, and we don't have a natural successor. Hendo is still very much work in progress. Going back over the past decade, even after Stevie took the captain's armband, we always had leaders all over the park. Be it Hyppia, Carra, Mascha, Hamman, we always had strong characters who could push the team on. It didn't have to be world class footballing talent, just men with steel who could handle the preassure. We're seriously lacking in that department. Sure Hendo, Can, Skrtl have the potential to be that player but potential is all it is. We missed that leader against United.

The question is, what is the answer? Do we give likes of Hendo, Can, Skrtl the chance to step up or do we bring in a top quality experienced player who doesn't necessarily have to take the captaincy from Hendo, but who will provide that backbone and steel? So far, Lovren hasn't turned out to be the defender we hoped, so I wouldn't mind off loading him and investing in a top notch, experienced CB...something we need anyway I think. A star striker woud also help given how much of a difference to the team's mood Suarez made. I've always said we need these two positions filled with worthy players anyway so that may be the answer to our problems that is preventing us going from potential contenders to genuine contenders. And investing in two top quality players that may cost anywhere between 50 and 70 mil isn't a huge ask for a club of our stature. But of course, part of that depends on us getting tinto top 4 this year.

All systems have been "sussed" by all teams - sussing it and defeating it are two separate entities; let's not get the two confused.

It's all on the day; the standard of opponent and the standard of our play... irrespective of which system is deployed. Burnley, for example, may have sussed it but simply didn't have the players to defeat it; on the day, Man Utd did.

It's hoary old chestnut but a system, any system, on it's own, will only take you so far. We were bullied in midfield and targeted in the left-back area of the field - different quality players (on both teams), playing in the same positions and roles may have lead to a different result.

So... be it 4-4-2; 4-3-3 or 3-4-3: on the day, the quality of the player (on both teams) will more often than not, dictate the outcome.

We will continue to beat teams with this system - teams who don't have the players with enough ability to exploit what they have sussed.

So perhaps with Jordi Alba in the left wingback postion, things might have been different

On one level that makes perfect sense

It's no wonder when all of a sudden you decide to play Lallana, who did nothing so far to help our team and justify his price-tag, bar 2-3 flashy moves, alienating Sterling in the process.

So perhaps with Jordi Alba in the left wingback postion, things might have been different

Or with David Jones [Burnley], instead of Fellaini, up against Joe Allen for example.

Strange people wanting experience in the team when our two most experienced players lost their heads and will now be banned for 3 games.

Great example they were to the kids.

I don't think Man United 'sussed us out' on Sunday, I think we were just a bit sh*te.

Strange people wanting experience in the team when our two most experienced players lost their heads and will now be banned for 3 games.

Great example they were to the kids.

Are you saying the young uns are better off without experienced players debs?

And he's injured again

He will be fit for Arsenal, even if its just a subbie.

More like LvG out thought Rodgers, he's not won honours every where he has been for no reason.

They flooded our right hand side with Fellani, Herrera, Young and Co and created the the huge overlaps to exploit on our left hand side, didn't help Moreno having a mare.
Double whammy for us being we didn't have the ability in midfield to play out of this congestion or as some have said a bit more steel to bust out of those blocks put in place.

Simplest idea would have been to lump it up and rely on our pace to frighten them back from venturing forward, however Sturridge alone would have been on a loser, so he needed Sterling up beside him and besides this  style of play goes against Rodgers beliefs......

Are you saying the young uns are better off without experienced players debs?

No course not Mouse.  We needed level heads on the pitch to help take control of the game, Stevie couldn't/didn't control his emotions and losing him before he could make an impact showed a lack of experience and professionalism, despite being a "veteran and legend".

Skrtel then couldn't control his frustrations at the end so that's another of our "experienced" players letting the side down.

I'm not disputing that somebody needed to take the game by the scruff of it's neck but we needed a calming influence like Lucas, someone to put their foot on the ball and dictate play, not someone as passionate as Stevie.

This is what I posted before the game because it's one of those games where passions and tempers rise and red cards are commonplace, Stevie knows that more than anyone but his "expereince" didn't stop him from doing it.

Most important message from Brendan, Hendo and Stevie today is to stay calm, no reckless tackles early on as we need 11 players on the pitch to win this in the manner we want to win it.

I don't think Man United 'sussed us out' on Sunday, I think we were just a bit sh*te.

Absolutely. We were sh*te in the sense that we lacked versatility and the inability to change our game plan. However, I do believe United did have us sussed on the day. They didn't just beat us, they dominated us. It was as if they knew everything we were going to do.

By no means do I think they are a better team. They just got the tactics spot on.

No course not Mouse.

So not really that strange after all then.

Strange people wanting experience in the team when our two most experienced players lost their heads and will now be banned for 3 games.

Great example they were to the kids.

I think the comment is a general observation in our lack of leaders on the pitch. Stevie's the only one with authority at the moment if you ask me and if he loses his head on the rare occasion...or he isn't playing, we're a bit stuck. Whilst Skrtl, GJ and Lucas might be experienced veterans, they're not the authoritative leaders I would like us to have.

But...good point on our most experienced players losing their head...reactionary behaviour at best, downright stupid at worst.

So not really that strange after all then.

Strange that it's been brought up after this weekends game is all mate, especially as we're discussing if the system's been sussed rather than what we lack playing wise.........

Ah wtf, does it really matter, it's only a F***ing game after all. 

Strange that it's been brought up after this weekends game is all mate, especially as we're discussing if the system's been sussed rather than what we lack playing wise.

No probs - I must have read it wrong. If this team is to continue with  it's growth then experienced players are a must. What Stevie and Martin did on Sunday doesn't change that (imo, obviously).

My apologies for picking you up wrong.

No probs - I must have read it wrong. If this team is to continue with  it's growth then experienced players are a must. What Stevie and Martin did on Sunday doesn't change that (imo, obviously).

My apologies for picking you up wrong.

No worries mate and I agree with you.

I'm still a bit stunned as to why our players played like it was a pre season friendly away to Rotheram or something

No passion so no excuse

And that Nivea advert!

I read this interesting article somewhere that explored why 3-4-2-1 doesnt produce as many goals as we would like despite the plethora of attacking talent with us.

For starters, the 2 behind Sturridge - mostly Coutinho and Lallana - seldom make runs into the box and provide our main man some support. Coutinho, for instance, gets hounded by the opposition and can hardly sneak in beyond the center backs, ends up taking a lot of long-range shots. Lallana covers a lot of ground, tracking back and defending, that when we initiate an attack, we dont have enough numbers upfront.

Again, I'm not sure how accurate these deductions are, we might probably understand better from players' heat maps. But the point was to play those guys who would run past the defence and attack the goal, and for us the only other player we have in that category is Sterling. But he is being made to play wing back meaning he never makes those direct runs. On Sunday, United's midfield and defence played close to each other when we had the ball letting our midfield come forward but completely denying space to Coutinho and Lallana to receive the ball. When you see the best chance we had in the first half, it was Hendo's brilliant diagonal ball to Sturridge who touched it down to Lallana but unfortunately he didnt find the target.

I think this is where a 3-1-4-2 would help. Lucas sitting deep; Move Sterling up-top with Danny, I feel the latter can contribute more if he has a partner or a pseudo-partner, play Coutinho in the hole and stretch the defence. Markovic, Ibe, Moreno, Johnson gotto contribute more from the fullback positions. Might be a slight tweak in the system but we need the right personnel in the right positions.