"Teams have sussed us out. Again."

Chelsea are scraping wins atm, have they been sussed too, or is it the time of the year when teams are stepping up.a level to fight for survival and places.

Sussed us out?

I'm not sure, mainly with the terminology rather than the tactical thought behind it.

For me tactically 'sussing us out' is a media term which is not simply allocated for us solely whatsoever but we as fans simply only listen to with open ears stuff about us because I can think of countless times that the same has been thrown by the media against Arsenal or recently with City when playing their two up top in 'big games' .. Also the media love using it when droning on about England etc

You know what? Tactics are very important but it ultimately comes down to the level of your players, either in their overall ability or their performances on the given day. England could use almost any tactic in the world but ultimately be shown up by better players.

On us? I personally think we have a very forward thinking coach in terms  of tactics, he has used countless formations in his time here.. We were just sh*te yesterday, we just didn't get going for half an hour, yes we can look tactics but to be honest had we played the diamond yesterday and Utd started how they did them F**k, who knows but still we may well have not been any different because on the day they played better than us.

Any tactic can be 'worked out' for me.. You can stop any tactic working if you concentrate on stopping that way of playing, like Blackburn did recently, but they hardly took it to us because they don't have the players.. Utd do.
We made seasons and memories with Rafa off of stopping others tactics working but having the world class Torres/Gerrard to make the difference in moments to win us games.

Last season we could have played essentially how we wanted tactically as we had a player at the top of his game to force us onto oppositions.. The players are more important than the formation. However hand in hand makes the perfect combination of the whole package.

We are used to in the last two seasons dictating games, Utd didn't let us dictate the game yesterday, they stopped us playing, they sat so tight to Allen and Henderson that it squeezed us from playing short and through them to playing long and disjointed. They played a similar formation but on the day their players were better as much as that hurts to say.

You should always have different formations and approaches to games up your sleeve but if the players don't go out there and put it together, against other good sides especially.. Then you lose the game. It's a game with two sides playing, ultimately you have to accept that, you don't just get to run roughshot over the other side.. Not all the time, it doesn't work like that.

Don't think we've been "sussed out" at all but the original set up has been watered down somewhat due to injuries and therefore we aren't as much a threat from it as we were.

We had Lucas sitting, providing our back line with better protection, meaning Jordan could play a little further ahead.  He linked magnificently with Sakho and Cou but also covered for Morenos lack of defensive nouse meaning he was further up the pitch giving us additional width.

Marko or Ibe on the right.  Marko being the better defender so giving more protection for Can, allowing him to go on his marauding runs.  Ibe gave us more of an attacking threat and width which meant more space through the middle.

Cou and Lallana behind Raheem who played the lone striker role better than Studge does (not as clinical) but he occupied the defenders due to his pace, again opening up space for others.  It's no surprise that Lallanas goals have dried up since Studge came back into the team.  Or that we've been struggling to score enough since Raheem was moved to WB.

Thankfully by the time we play Arsenal those injured should be back and we can get back to something like we were when we beat Spurs, Southampton and City.

Problem with our current formation is that only Ibe has shown the ability to play the wingback role so if we are not pinning the opposition in their half it makes our midfield so much easier to dominate.

If we are to persist with this formation that would be an area to look at next year. But I feel Rodgers preferred system is the 433 so it may be different next year with another top class forward.

WE just need to evolve again unless your a top team like Barca or Madrid,Munich etc teams can make their life easier by nulling what we do best which was fast attacking passing football.

a team stops coutinho playing and defend tight we just cant figure out what to do and that's down to not having many top experianced clever players. We will learn from it and grow

Problem with our current formation is that only Ibe has shown the ability to play the wingback role so if we are not pinning the opposition in their half it makes our midfield so much easier to dominate.

If we are to persist with this formation that would be an area to look at next year. But I feel Rodgers preferred system is the 433 so it may be different next year with another top class forward.

Failure to buy the right forward has crippled us this season.
Balotelli & Borini will need to be shifted in order to get somebody that suits.

Good OP mate, plenty to discuss.

As others have said, I don't think we've been sussed out as I don't believe in that term. What has happened is that there has been a change in personnel and players like Sterling, who has been so effective as lone striker, or AM at worst, has been moved around. Add to it that Lucas is out, meaning Allen, who is not as consistent, can often be exposed.

Compare that to Chelsea or Arsenal for example, they don't actually change their formation or line up too often. Chelsea have built their system on a very solid defensive foundation. It's their attacking players who are more fluid in terms of supplementing the defensive line up, or becoming more attacking depending on the game. Arsenal have always been more attacking, but the difference is, in players like Cazorla, Ozil and Ramsay, they have very versatile players who can unlock defences. We only have Couts who has the individual ability to do that.

On top of the injury enforced changes, I think there has been a drop in the intensity of of our pressing game lately. Can't put my finger on why or what it is exactly, but we used to hound the opposition earlier in the year when we didn't have the ball. That's been missing a little in the past few games and we need that back.

Have teams 'sussed us out' though or are we just playing poorly?

I genuinely ask because I haven't seen us play in recent weeks but it seems Brendan is getting praise one minute for finding a solution to our early season form and now that we've hit a mini blip teams have sussed us out.

Good OP by the way Rush but I'm just not sure it's as simple as that.

Up until yesterday, and I said as much going into the game that I thought our form had dipped from being on top of the crest of a wave heading down into a trough. We weren't convincing against Blackburn and Swansea.

Yesterday though, (with hindsight of course) I think our formation came a little unstuck for the first time. I think they had developed a game-plan to beat us tactically. I don't think this was the case with Blackburn or Swansea though. The Mancs, for me did their homework on us and countered any perceived issues from us.

They settled quicker and got on the ball, pressed higher and swarmed us in midfield. Henderson and Allen eventually dropped off deeper and conceded possession with them gaining territory as much as possession. It seemed they consistently outnumbered us in midfield from all angles and pressed in packs - where we could only do this in the main with a lone player - as we were at times that deep. Individually, I don't think Lallana not Moreno helped our causes in midfield, Lallana cause he couldn't help fight the battle to win the right to play, and Moreno purely because he was awful in every aspect of his game. Henderson and Allen, were chasing shadows for the most part and weren't impressive themselves (IMO).

I wouldn't say we've been found out, although I think the Mancs to extent did yesterday and others can take note - but I think it was coupled with our downward trough in performance too. IMHO of course.

The weakness yesterday was as much mental as any tactical deficiency. None of our players, bar Sahko, performed to a suitable standard individually. Moreno, Lallana and Allen were powder puff players in the first half. Sturridge and Henderson were poor, too.

The team appeared inhibited by the huge occasion - against our massive rivals with the chance to leapfrog them into 4th spot for the first time this season. It isn't surprising considering there was no real leader out there to guide them through a bad start. Besides Sahko.

I wouldn't write off this system this season. It will still beat most of our remaining opponents and tends to give us better defensive solidity. If, however, the players freeze on the day then no system will solve that. The manager needs to work harder on their mental approach to a decisive game. We can still beat Arsenal if each of the players handle the pressure of the match and Sterling is put in his proper position. The attitude/performance away to Chelsea in the cup is what we need to produce at Arsenal... with the same system.

How many of our players would walk into the top teams in Britain, let alone Europe?

Sturridge doesn't look fit. Sterling is still developing. The rest are just solid players. Certainly not world class, most aren't even intl class. Caan has loads of potential, as does Ibe. Maybe Cou and some of the defenders. Henderson is solid, honest but I just dont get the hype.

But how many of our players do Man C, Chelsea even the Mancs or Arsenal think "wow I'd love to have him in MY team"? Back in 09, we had lots who would get envious looks from Barce, Real and everywhere. Nowadays, it looks like all the family silver is gone.

So I'm not surprised when we lose to those hideous Mancs.

How many of our players would walk into the top teams in Britain, let alone Europe?

Sturridge doesn't look fit. Sterling is still developing. The rest are just solid players. Certainly not world class, most aren't even intl class. Caan has loads of potential, as does Ibe. Maybe Cou and some of the defenders. Henderson is solid, honest but I just dont get the hype.

But how many of our players do Man C, Chelsea even the Mancs or Arsenal think "wow I'd love to have him in MY team"? Back in 09, we had lots who would get envious looks from Barce, Real and everywhere. Nowadays, it looks like all the family silver is gone.

So I'm not surprised when we lose to those hideous Mancs.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

We have the basis of a very good squad.. If you could and you added a world class star or two to this squad as we had in Luis last season then it's shown what it can achieve.

It's a shame we can't add those calibre of player

Teams have not sussed us out, we have just hit a wee blip, and played crap past 2 games in the 1st half. Got away with it v the swans, but mancs are now playing with confidence and we got done.

Simples.

We move on, and sterling is playing crap since he went to play on the wing again, taking a while fitting studger back into the system.

Teams have not sussed us out, we have just hit a wee blip, and played crap past 2 games in the 1st half. Got away with it v the swans, but mancs are now playing with confidence and we got done.

Simples.

We move on, and sterling is playing crap since he went to play on the wing again, taking a while fitting studger back into the system.

And he's injured again

The beating of LFC  is the Atkinson factor.

I've always maintained the thought that we need more grit within the team. We need more leaders and more experience. There is little point trying to nurture a team of kids when there are few senior figures to look up to. The kids need an example to go by, so I wouldn't mind us seeing some experienced faces come the summer.

Our system is not outdated or too predictable - United were just the better team on the day. They bullied us off the park, if you like. Fellaini and Blind would not give our players a moment of peace, enabling Mata to exploit acres of yard in behind our midfield. There was no link between midfield and defence. United had exploited this area on the pitch and we not just found it difficult to track their runners, but to also pass it out of defence. This is where the likes of Lucas would have made a good impact. Tactically he is our most sound player and tends to have a very good reading of the game.

I would have gone with the following..

         Coutinho  Hendo
                   Lucas
Moreno Sakho Skrtel Johnson

We need more experience within the team. I would like to see Lucas start against Arsenal. I'm expecting an easier game too.

I'm sure City would love plenty of our players considering the football lesson we gave them a few weeks ago.

Off topic but for me, Coutinho walks into any PL side in the league. Sturridge does too. Lucas and Sakho's are both maybes and then I'm struggling after that.

Mignolet is your average goalie and even that's being kind to him. He has improved in recent weeks but still miles away from being a top keeper.

Can looks a prospect but is a little rough around the edges. One for the future certainly.

Skrtel has never established himself as one of the leagues best CB's in my opinion. The likes of Vidic, Terry and even our own Caragher have been heads and shoulders above him.

Lovren and Johnson are dog sh*t. Nothing more needs to be said.

Sterling a fine young prospect but nothing more just yet. The likes of Hazard and Sanchez who play similar roles for their clubs are better players than Raheem right now. Maybe he will reach that level one day but he isn't there yet. Same with Ibe and Markovic.

Gerrards passed his best, still bags of quality but not the player he was.

Henderson, Lallana & Allen are your average midfielders too. All capable of working hard and that can win you games at times like we saw against City. We had more pace and energy than they did and it worked for us. But when you need a player to grab hold of a game by the scruff of the neck or you need somebody to come up with a bit of quality, none of Henderson, Lallana or Allen enter my head.  Im probably being a bit harsh on Hendo because he has shown glimpses on some occasions but even so, he wouldn't get a game for any of the teams above us. Lallana, Henderson and Allen make up probably the most basic Liverpool midfield I've ever seen in my life.

To summarise we have some very good players but not many you can consider world class. Don't get me wrong id rather have a team of players who will give it 100% each week than a bunch of individuals but I do worry about the lack of class we have sometimes compared to those around us. Im not sure our rivals would take our players given the opportunity but we would certainly take theirs. I do genuinely believe we have a manager and a squad that will challenge for the league title in the next season or so but there will be several games we can't unlock a tight defence or score a 30 yard screamer and win the game because we lack quality.

I'm getting fed up watching Chelsea, Arsenal, City, United play sh*t week in week out but then a moment of quality from one of their 'superstars' wins the match. It seems to happen all the time.  We don't have as many 'match winners' as they do.

I've always maintained the thought that we need more grit within the team. We need more leaders and more experience. There is little point trying to nurture a team of kids when there are few senior figures to look up to. The kids need an example to go by, so I wouldn't mind us seeing some experienced faces come the summer.

Our system is not outdated or too predictable - United were just the better team on the day. They bullied us off the park, if you like. Fellaini and Blind would not give our players a moment of peace, enabling Mata to exploit acres of yard in behind our midfield. There was no link between midfield and defence. United had exploited this area on the pitch and we not just found it difficult to track their runners, but to also pass it out of defence. This is where the likes of Lucas would have made a good impact. Tactically he is our most sound player and tends to have a very good reading of the game.

I would have gone with the following..

         Coutinho  Hendo
                   Lucas
Moreno Sakho Skrtel Johnson

We need more experience within the team. I would like to see Lucas start against Arsenal. I'm expecting an easier game too.

I completely agree with the leadership aspect. Stevie will not play too many games now, and we don't have a natural successor. Hendo is still very much work in progress. Going back over the past decade, even after Stevie took the captain's armband, we always had leaders all over the park. Be it Hyppia, Carra, Mascha, Hamman, we always had strong characters who could push the team on. It didn't have to be world class footballing talent, just men with steel who could handle the preassure. We're seriously lacking in that department. Sure Hendo, Can, Skrtl have the potential to be that player but potential is all it is. We missed that leader against United.

The question is, what is the answer? Do we give likes of Hendo, Can, Skrtl the chance to step up or do we bring in a top quality experienced player who doesn't necessarily have to take the captaincy from Hendo, but who will provide that backbone and steel? So far, Lovren hasn't turned out to be the defender we hoped, so I wouldn't mind off loading him and investing in a top notch, experienced CB...something we need anyway I think. A star striker woud also help given how much of a difference to the team's mood Suarez made. I've always said we need these two positions filled with worthy players anyway so that may be the answer to our problems that is preventing us going from potential contenders to genuine contenders. And investing in two top quality players that may cost anywhere between 50 and 70 mil isn't a huge ask for a club of our stature. But of course, part of that depends on us getting tinto top 4 this year.

All systems have been "sussed" by all teams - sussing it and defeating it are two separate entities; let's not get the two confused.

It's all on the day; the standard of opponent and the standard of our play... irrespective of which system is deployed. Burnley, for example, may have sussed it but simply didn't have the players to defeat it; on the day, Man Utd did.

It's hoary old chestnut but a system, any system, on it's own, will only take you so far. We were bullied in midfield and targeted in the left-back area of the field - different quality players (on both teams), playing in the same positions and roles may have lead to a different result.

So... be it 4-4-2; 4-3-3 or 3-4-3: on the day, the quality of the player (on both teams) will more often than not, dictate the outcome.

We will continue to beat teams with this system - teams who don't have the players with enough ability to exploit what they have sussed.

So perhaps with Jordi Alba in the left wingback postion, things might have been different

On one level that makes perfect sense

It's no wonder when all of a sudden you decide to play Lallana, who did nothing so far to help our team and justify his price-tag, bar 2-3 flashy moves, alienating Sterling in the process.

So perhaps with Jordi Alba in the left wingback postion, things might have been different

Or with David Jones [Burnley], instead of Fellaini, up against Joe Allen for example.

Strange people wanting experience in the team when our two most experienced players lost their heads and will now be banned for 3 games.

Great example they were to the kids.