What's the vision for LFC going forward?

It occurred to me that Liverpool the club stands for many things, going back many years.

Growing up, I always associated us with dominance, community, the highest standards of performance and player behaviour, keeping things in-house, keeping things simple but effective...  I could go on.

In my job (teacher) we think a lot about vision - about what ideals and aspirations we want for the future for our kids, ourselves and the community we serve, and how to achieve it.   

I know BR has talked of five-year plans, etc, and has targets e.g. top-four finish and trophy, and of course we all want world domination back tomorrow, but what's the VISION?  What do BR, the fans, the community want LFC to be, to stand for, in the coming years and decades?  I know there's obvious answers, but I'd been interested in any - I for one want to be proud of a club that's above all the tawdry sh*t that seems to go hand in hand with the modern game, like diving, agents, and Twitter...

Apparently something to do with not paying over inflated transfer fee's and wages or something along them lines.

Ah yes that vision thing........unfortunate ly it died when FSG found out about the relaxation of FFP rules!

I've said this time and time again but obviously people still believe we can challenge in the transfer market, but we are only moving forward by investing in youth, youth and more youth and producing our own quality professionals!! The negligence of the academy, and the lack of quality that has followed in recent times has been utterly shocking and disturbing for a club of Liverpool's status.

Academies are supposed to produce the backbone of teams that outwit the financially superior clubs. And whether we like it or not, there are at least four financially far superior clubs above us in England. Clubs can play all this 'moneyball' nonsense all they like but the fact remains this - clubs with players that are on lower wages and lower transfer fees do not finish ahead of those who spend more.

If you read Soccernomics, only the clubs who have inherited great youth systems can actively challenge those financially superior clubs. Dormund closed the gap on Bayern with some expert buys yes, but crucially, a great youth system was their springboard. Barca.... well they wouldn't have been successful without the academy overhaul that Michels and Cruyff undertook in the late 80s. Some years later, and as a result of those reforms, they have won 4 European Cups since, and given that they hadn't been needing to spend so much as a result of this, they have been able to fill the gaps in their squad accordingly with the few players they do need to buy. And, of course, Liverpool - even in recent years, the trophy success of Houllier and Benitez were centred around, yes you've guessed it, youth product. But since the emergence of those lads in the 90s, we've produced absolutely nothing. And look where it's got us today eh....

Let's get one thing straight here about a successful youth academy:

(A) They cost nothing in comparison, (B) they provide strength and depth to challenge on all fronts, (C) they are generally more loyal to the club they are playing for (before anyone asks - Sterling is NOT a product of our academy), and (D) they are well versed in the tactics and philosophy of the club having been taught such coaching methods from a very early age, meaning their adaption to the first team squad is like water off a ducks back.

Just think how much wasted millions have been spent by our club over the last number of years buying mere squad players? At the very least, youth players promoted from the Academy should be taking up those positions. If that had occurred, perhaps we would have been able to clump all the wasted millions on dud squad players and go that little bit extra for the player in the transfer market that would make all the difference?

I'm telling you this, if we get a good backbone of young talent in the squad, we will be able to spend more wisely on fewer but more quality players.

Then we will be able to progress. Some fans have to get out of this ridiculous deluded mindset that we can buy any world class player - I've seen Tevez name bandied around the lasst few days? Why the hell would he quit a Serie A winning side and Champions League finalist club for us? It's baffling.  We don't have the money to outsmart teams in the trasfer market, and we don't have the attraction either.

It's time we put all our efforts towards youth. It provides the concrete foundations upon which we can propel ourselves. Without it, we will constantly be treading water, pathetically thinking we can outmanouevre bigger clubs in the transfer market. But as ever, I'm sure the majority of fans won't give a sh*t about the youth academy, believing that a mere change in manager is going to overhaul everything. Get real - we aren't going nowhere until we can produce talented players ourselves.

That's what I'm thinking - we need a strategy that builds on our strengths and the academy certainly IS one.  For all the reasons you say, that's a winning vision, but it's long-term.  The downside of course is that that approach demands massive patience from fans, sponsors and owners, and that just isn't forthcoming in today's football world.  Thanks mate!

That's what I'm thinking - we need a strategy that builds on our strengths and the academy certainly IS one.  For all the reasons you say, that's a winning vision, but it's long-term.  The downside of course is that that approach demands massive patience from fans, sponsors and owners, and that just isn't forthcoming in today's football world.  Thanks mate!

No problem mate.

Let's face it - the past 6 seasons we have been failing badly - apart from the runners up position last season. I think fans would be less fuming to see 6th-7th place failures with young Academy lads taking the place in a team. There would, at the very least, be an understanding failure as opposed to blowing so much money with similar failures.

Putting it this way, imagine if our strategy was like this:

Emphasis on producing top academy talent >>> which gives us depth which we can pool all our funds towards a couple of quality players, leading to >>> strength and depth >>> Title winning team
OR
No academy talent meaning this leads to >>>  spreading all our funds towards merely decent players, which leads to >>> depth but no strength >>> abject league positions

And currently, the latter method is the club's strategy. Never in Liverpool's history have we ever succeeded without a good base of youth/local talent. Is it any wonder why we are so bad now?

Unfortunately you can't rely just on academy talent any more, not that you could before! But there is no denying it helps having home grown talent who will run through a brick wall for the club however without the likes of a Suarez et al around the club what incentive is there for the likes of a Sterling hanging around and learning their trade?

I'm being idealistic, I know, but at some point there needs to be a club-wide acknowledgement that there's a reason for having an academy.  Its to produce young players good enough to play for the first team at some stage.  Surely you either have it and use it, or you don't bother!  I saddened me to see us going after that young Charlton defender, Gomez.  Don't we have any decent CBs coming through our own academy?

Unfortunately you can't rely just on academy talent any more, not that you could before! But there is no denying it helps having home grown talent who will run through a brick wall for the club however without the likes of a Suarez et al around the club what incentive is there for the likes of a Sterling hanging around and learning their trade?

Not saying you ONLY have to rely on academies.

But they are one of the qualities we need to succeed. Anyone's deluding themselves if they think we can get by without it.

I'm being idealistic, I know, but at some point there needs to be a club-wide acknowledgement that there's a reason for having an academy.  Its to produce young players good enough to play for the first team at some stage.  Surely you either have it and use it, or you don't bother!  I saddened me to see us going after that young Charlton defender, Gomez.  Don't we have any decent CBs coming through our own academy?

This, all day long. I believe we have it, but I also believe we don't use it as efficiently as other teams. I do not believe these weaker teams have a better youth system than ours, I also do not believe our youngsters are worse off than the ones making their first step into professional football and making a name for themselves.

It really does sadden me deeply to to see us spend so much on u21 players to sit on our bench and train with the first team regularly when that spot should have gone to one of our own that we trained from a young age. Money wasted when it should be going to established players.

I've said this time and time again but obviously people still believe we can challenge in the transfer market, but we are only moving forward by investing in youth, youth and more youth and producing our own quality professionals!! The negligence of the academy, and the lack of quality that has followed in recent times has been utterly shocking and disturbing for a club of Liverpool's status.

Academies are supposed to produce the backbone of teams that outwit the financially superior clubs. And whether we like it or not, there are at least four financially far superior clubs above us in England. Clubs can play all this 'moneyball' nonsense all they like but the fact remains this - clubs with players that are on lower wages and lower transfer fees do not finish ahead of those who spend more.

If you read Soccernomics, only the clubs who have inherited great youth systems can actively challenge those financially superior clubs. Dormund closed the gap on Bayern with some expert buys yes, but crucially, a great youth system was their springboard. Barca.... well they wouldn't have been successful without the academy overhaul that Michels and Cruyff undertook in the late 80s. Some years later, and as a result of those reforms, they have won 4 European Cups since, and given that they hadn't been needing to spend so much as a result of this, they have been able to fill the gaps in their squad accordingly with the few players they do need to buy. And, of course, Liverpool - even in recent years, the trophy success of Houllier and Benitez were centred around, yes you've guessed it, youth product. But since the emergence of those lads in the 90s, we've produced absolutely nothing. And look where it's got us today eh....

Let's get one thing straight here about a successful youth academy:

(A) They cost nothing in comparison, (B) they provide strength and depth to challenge on all fronts, (C) they are generally more loyal to the club they are playing for (before anyone asks - I do not think Sterling is NOT a product of our academy), and (D) they are well versed in the tactics and philosophy of the club having been taught such coaching methods from a very early age, meaning their adaption to the first team squad is like water off a ducks back.

Just think how much wasted millions have been spent by our club over the last number of years buying mere squad players? At the very least, youth players promoted from the Academy should be taking up those positions. If that had occurred, perhaps we would have been able to clump all the wasted millions on dud squad players and go that little bit extra for the player in the transfer market that would make all the difference?

I'm telling you this, if we get a good backbone of young talent in the squad, we will be able to spend more wisely on fewer but more quality players.

Then we will be able to progress. Some fans have to get out of this ridiculous deluded mindset that we can buy any world class player - I've seen Tevez name bandied around the lasst few days? Why the hell would he quit a Serie A winning side and Champions League finalist club for us? It's baffling.  We don't have the money to outsmart teams in the trasfer market, and we don't have the attraction either.

It's time we put all our efforts towards youth. It provides the concrete foundations upon which we can propel ourselves. Without it, we will constantly be treading water, pathetically thinking we can outmanouevre bigger clubs in the transfer market. But as ever, I'm sure the majority of fans won't give a sh*t about the youth academy, believing that a mere change in manager is going to overhaul everything. Get real - we aren't going nowhere until we can produce talented players ourselves.

This all day. One of the reasons why i've been so pissed off with all the money spent on potential. Potential is the by product of the academy. The more youngsters that we buy from abroad with potential, the more youngsters at the Academy that get neglected.

There is no arguing with your point about academies having a direct link with sustained success at football clubs the world over. Carra and Neville touched on this at the end of last Season and they were right.

1 or 2 top quality players per Season and 2-3 youth products every 2 Seasons.

Some interesting and very good posts here, particularly regarding youth development, an area where we seem to have regressed in comparison to some of the talent we have produced.
Rafa had a plan in place, but it looks like that's been shot to sh*t now and we've started again under BR's vision, who wants the young players to be ready to come through at an earlier age.

It's interesting as well that son of a gun should bring up the book "Soccernomics" because there is a fascinating chapter about how managers (especially NEW managers) invariably waste money.
They take Lyon and Lacombe as the ideal model for success without spending huge amounts, and I think it's important to point out just how integral to their success Lacombe has been.
When Lyon change "managers" they are simply bringing in a new coach, and Lacombe deals with all player recruitment and "reinforces" the club style to new coaches coming in.

It's seemed to me for quite a while that this is the route FSG want to go down, but they have been somewhat clumsy about it, due to BR not wanting to work under a DoF. They thought he was their man to the extent that they were prepared to modify their plans, but I think that they are now moving in the direction they always wanted and we will see a DoF or similar (whatever name they give the role) at some point in the future, and maybe even this summer.
I have my doubts that the Lyon model can be as successful in the prem as it was (and is) in Ligue 1, but I think a modified version could work very well.
If I'm correct, we saw the first phase of this last summer with the acquisition of several young, highly rated players, but now is the time to add quality to the starting 11, which would be the second phase.

It occurred to me that Liverpool the club stands for many things, going back many years.

Growing up, I always associated us with dominance, community, the highest standards of performance and player behaviour, keeping things in-house, keeping things simple but effective...  I could go on.

In my job (teacher) we think a lot about vision - about what ideals and aspirations we want for the future for our kids, ourselves and the community we serve, and how to achieve it.   

I know BR has talked of five-year plans, etc, and has targets e.g. top-four finish and trophy, and of course we all want world domination back tomorrow, but what's the VISION?  What do BR, the fans, the community want LFC to be, to stand for, in the coming years and decades?  I know there's obvious answers, but I'd been interested in any - I for one want to be proud of a club that's above all the tawdry sh*t that seems to go hand in hand with the modern game, like diving, agents, and Twitter...

Wins trophies and wins the league in May!!

Simples!!

Wins trophies and wins the league in May by March!!

Simples!!

fixed that for ya HR 

Haha!  Win all those first seven away fixtures and we could have it almost sewn up by Christmas, as long as we can beat the Palaces and Bournemouths!

fixed that for ya HR 

Well had Liverbird Upon My Chest going through my head when I wrote "wins the league in May"

Obviously need to provide home grown talent from a youth policy. Although at the same time not let the wealthier clubs come along and snatch any talented players, that may make the grade of first team football, or else the club will be back to square one. I think we need a combination of home grown talent and a sprinkling of quality players to make the team successful again. Although with FSG 's wage policy, this could be a long way off.

I've said this time and time again but obviously people still believe we can challenge in the transfer market, but we are only moving forward by investing in youth, youth and more youth and producing our own quality professionals!! The negligence of the academy, and the lack of quality that has followed in recent times has been utterly shocking and disturbing for a club of Liverpool's status.

Academies are supposed to produce the backbone of teams that outwit the financially superior clubs. And whether we like it or not, there are at least four financially far superior clubs above us in England. Clubs can play all this 'moneyball' nonsense all they like but the fact remains this - clubs with players that are on lower wages and lower transfer fees do not finish ahead of those who spend more.

If you read Soccernomics, only the clubs who have inherited great youth systems can actively challenge those financially superior clubs. Dormund closed the gap on Bayern with some expert buys yes, but crucially, a great youth system was their springboard. Barca.... well they wouldn't have been successful without the academy overhaul that Michels and Cruyff undertook in the late 80s. Some years later, and as a result of those reforms, they have won 4 European Cups since, and given that they hadn't been needing to spend so much as a result of this, they have been able to fill the gaps in their squad accordingly with the few players they do need to buy. And, of course, Liverpool - even in recent years, the trophy success of Houllier and Benitez were centred around, yes you've guessed it, youth product. But since the emergence of those lads in the 90s, we've produced absolutely nothing. And look where it's got us today eh....

Let's get one thing straight here about a successful youth academy:

(A) They cost nothing in comparison, (B) they provide strength and depth to challenge on all fronts, (C) they are generally more loyal to the club they are playing for (before anyone asks - Sterling is NOT a product of our academy), and (D) they are well versed in the tactics and philosophy of the club having been taught such coaching methods from a very early age, meaning their adaption to the first team squad is like water off a ducks back.

Just think how much wasted millions have been spent by our club over the last number of years buying mere squad players? At the very least, youth players promoted from the Academy should be taking up those positions. If that had occurred, perhaps we would have been able to clump all the wasted millions on dud squad players and go that little bit extra for the player in the transfer market that would make all the difference?

I'm telling you this, if we get a good backbone of young talent in the squad, we will be able to spend more wisely on fewer but more quality players.

Then we will be able to progress. Some fans have to get out of this ridiculous deluded mindset that we can buy any world class player - I've seen Tevez name bandied around the lasst few days? Why the hell would he quit a Serie A winning side and Champions League finalist club for us? It's baffling.  We don't have the money to outsmart teams in the trasfer market, and we don't have the attraction either.

It's time we put all our efforts towards youth. It provides the concrete foundations upon which we can propel ourselves. Without it, we will constantly be treading water, pathetically thinking we can outmanouevre bigger clubs in the transfer market. But as ever, I'm sure the majority of fans won't give a sh*t about the youth academy, believing that a mere change in manager is going to overhaul everything. Get real - we aren't going nowhere until we can produce talented players ourselves.

Absolutely. All the talk of big name/marquee signing is futile if you don't have a youth system to compliment such privileges. Absolutely vital for a sustainable and successful future on the field and off it.

Problem is that the Vision keeps changing and there is no "caretaker" it has been 5 years of backtracking, changing minds, and utter confusion.

Chronological Order

1. We were supposed to have a DoF whereas no matter the manager we would have continuity. Yes we would buy young players and build the academy from within...but the style of play would be established and the DoF would ensure that we stayed true to it in both managerial and player acquisition.

2. Fire Roy, Bring in Comolli and Hire Kenny.   DC was never a true Director of Football; he perhaps would be a "super scout" and in 2 years time we went from a Rafa style team to a Roy team then to a Kenny Team all different styles and different player skill sets.

3. We hire BR but he will not work with a DoF but has his own Manifesto which FSG likes..at the same time we implement a "transfer committee" who finds the type of player that the manger is looking for...strangely however some acquisitions are totally opposite of what looks to be the managers style (ie..Balotelli)

The only way you have continuity at the club is to have a director of football that can take the vision and run it through the academy, reserves and first team no matter who the manager is.

We may have a "System" now but if Brendan leaves perhaps the new manager has a "New System" and the players we have might not fit...not only in the first team but also in the youth system.

We need a person in charge that is going to be here come hell or high water to implement and be accountable for everything that is happening.

Right now we have had multiple visions, multiple managers and multiple years of frustration.

It is up to the owners to make something happen, I don't seem rhyme nor reason in what we do with contracts, transfers or anything else; there is a complete and utter disconnect and for that I blame FSG.

Well had Liverbird Upon My Chest going through my head when I wrote "wins the league in May"

One of my favourites that mate .

Problem is that the Vision keeps changing and there is no "caretaker" it has been 5 years of backtracking, changing minds, and utter confusion.

Chronological Order

1. We were supposed to have a DoF whereas no matter the manager we would have continuity. Yes we would buy young players and build the academy from within...but the style of play would be established and the DoF would ensure that we stayed true to it in both managerial and player acquisition.

2. Fire Roy, Bring in Comolli and Hire Kenny.   DC was never a true Director of Football; he perhaps would be a "super scout" and in 2 years time we went from a Rafa style team to a Roy team then to a Kenny Team all different styles and different player skill sets.

3. We hire BR but he will not work with a DoF but has his own Manifesto which FSG likes..at the same time we implement a "transfer committee" who finds the type of player that the manger is looking for...strangely however some acquisitions are totally opposite of what looks to be the managers style (ie..Balotelli)

The only way you have continuity at the club is to have a director of football that can take the vision and run it through the academy, reserves and first team no matter who the manager is.

We may have a "System" now but if Brendan leaves perhaps the new manager has a "New System" and the players we have might not fit...not only in the first team but also in the youth system.

We need a person in charge that is going to be here come hell or high water to implement and be accountable for everything that is happening.

Right now we have had multiple visions, multiple managers and multiple years of frustration.

It is up to the owners to make something happen, I don't seem rhyme nor reason in what we do with contracts, transfers or anything else; there is a complete and utter disconnect and for that I blame FSG.

A director of football brings the stability that is needed - look at foreign clubs who have it, and there is none of the turmoil of an outgoing/incoming manager like we have in England.

I've said this time and time again but obviously people still believe we can challenge in the transfer market, but we are only moving forward by investing in youth, youth and more youth and producing our own quality professionals!! The negligence of the academy, and the lack of quality that has followed in recent times has been utterly shocking and disturbing for a club of Liverpool's status.

Academies are supposed to produce the backbone of teams that outwit the financially superior clubs. And whether we like it or not, there are at least four financially far superior clubs above us in England. Clubs can play all this 'moneyball' nonsense all they like but the fact remains this - clubs with players that are on lower wages and lower transfer fees do not finish ahead of those who spend more.

If you read Soccernomics, only the clubs who have inherited great youth systems can actively challenge those financially superior clubs. Dormund closed the gap on Bayern with some expert buys yes, but crucially, a great youth system was their springboard. Barca.... well they wouldn't have been successful without the academy overhaul that Michels and Cruyff undertook in the late 80s. Some years later, and as a result of those reforms, they have won 4 European Cups since, and given that they hadn't been needing to spend so much as a result of this, they have been able to fill the gaps in their squad accordingly with the few players they do need to buy. And, of course, Liverpool - even in recent years, the trophy success of Houllier and Benitez were centred around, yes you've guessed it, youth product. But since the emergence of those lads in the 90s, we've produced absolutely nothing. And look where it's got us today eh....

Let's get one thing straight here about a successful youth academy:

(A) They cost nothing in comparison, (B) they provide strength and depth to challenge on all fronts, (C) they are generally more loyal to the club they are playing for (before anyone asks - Sterling is NOT a product of our academy), and (D) they are well versed in the tactics and philosophy of the club having been taught such coaching methods from a very early age, meaning their adaption to the first team squad is like water off a ducks back.

Just think how much wasted millions have been spent by our club over the last number of years buying mere squad players? At the very least, youth players promoted from the Academy should be taking up those positions. If that had occurred, perhaps we would have been able to clump all the wasted millions on dud squad players and go that little bit extra for the player in the transfer market that would make all the difference?

I'm telling you this, if we get a good backbone of young talent in the squad, we will be able to spend more wisely on fewer but more quality players.

Then we will be able to progress. Some fans have to get out of this ridiculous deluded mindset that we can buy any world class player - I've seen Tevez name bandied around the lasst few days? Why the hell would he quit a Serie A winning side and Champions League finalist club for us? It's baffling.  We don't have the money to outsmart teams in the trasfer market, and we don't have the attraction either.

It's time we put all our efforts towards youth. It provides the concrete foundations upon which we can propel ourselves. Without it, we will constantly be treading water, pathetically thinking we can outmanouevre bigger clubs in the transfer market. But as ever, I'm sure the majority of fans won't give a sh*t about the youth academy, believing that a mere change in manager is going to overhaul everything. Get real - we aren't going nowhere until we can produce talented players ourselves.

That would bring more pride to our club , to be able to sit back with pride and say we brought that lad through the academy since knee high . And we didn't spunk 20 mil on potential when we have the resources in Kirkby to do it for a fraction of that . You know mate i wouldn't have minded so much in losing games with our own potential rather that see us losing with 20 mil potential from far off lands . It's mind boggling the crazy decisions that have been made for so long now .

Some interesting and very good posts here, particularly regarding youth development, an area where we seem to have regressed in comparison to some of the talent we have produced.
Rafa had a plan in place, but it looks like that's been shot to sh*t now and we've started again under BR's vision, who wants the young players to be ready to come through at an earlier age.

It's interesting as well that son of a gun should bring up the book "Soccernomics" because there is a fascinating chapter about how managers (especially NEW managers) invariably waste money.
They take Lyon and Lacombe as the ideal model for success without spending huge amounts, and I think it's important to point out just how integral to their success Lacombe has been.
When Lyon change "managers" they are simply bringing in a new coach, and Lacombe deals with all player recruitment and "reinforces" the club style to new coaches coming in.

It's seemed to me for quite a while that this is the route FSG want to go down, but they have been somewhat clumsy about it, due to BR not wanting to work under a DoF. They thought he was their man to the extent that they were prepared to modify their plans, but I think that they are now moving in the direction they always wanted and we will see a DoF or similar (whatever name they give the role) at some point in the future, and maybe even this summer.
I have my doubts that the Lyon model can be as successful in the prem as it was (and is) in Ligue 1, but I think a modified version could work very well.
If I'm correct, we saw the first phase of this last summer with the acquisition of several young, highly rated players, but now is the time to add quality to the starting 11, which would be the second phase.

This is something that i think we can all agree on , grow our own and nurture them , but to do this needs great vision and patience . The club needs to go back to Rafa's ideas on the academy and copper fasten those ideas and not sway in any way , and we will reap those benefits in a short while . No more wasting absolute millions on dross and every once in a while getting a little gem like Couts and Can .

Our visions the past 5 years

What's with all this vision sh*t anyway.

Just F***ing win!

The vision needs to be aligned with a philosophy of how Rodgers wants his teams to play.
He talks a lot about keeping possession and pressing the opposition into submission which we see glimpses of.
Then we have the rumours of Benteke being his preferred transfer target who moves and presses less than Balo!
 A defence with Skrtel and Migs who are sh*t scared of playing a high line.

Everything seems to be driven by a fear of not failing rather than sticking to a belief and philosophy which ultimately is a guarantee of failure.

This is something that i think we can all agree on , grow our own and nurture them , but to do this needs great vision and patience . The club needs to go back to Rafa's ideas on the academy and copper fasten those ideas and not sway in any way , and we will reap those benefits in a short while . No more wasting absolute millions on dross and every once in a while getting a little gem like Couts and Can .

Rafa had his system in place and it seemed to be doing well, then BR got a bee in his bonnet about the young players not being ready to step up to the first team soon enough and revamped it yet again.
I think one of the main problems is that the "vision" keeps changing, and that we lack continuity.
I kind of agree with BR in a way, because we are seeing lads age 20 and 21 who are not really ready for the step up, and at that age, they really should be ready to start playing a part if they are good enough.

The vision needs to be aligned with a philosophy of how Rodgers wants his teams to play.

I think one of the main problems is that the "vision" keeps changing, and that we lack continuity.

Mangers come and go, philosophy changes within the first team, but one thing that should always be constant should be our youth, and Rodgers stripping our last youth system in favour of his and nurturing our youth to his liking is wrong in my opinion. Our youth vision needs not be in aligned with the managers philosophy, but to the club's philosophy.

Rafa had his system in place and it seemed to be doing well, then BR got a bee in his bonnet about the young players not being ready to step up to the first team soon enough and revamped it yet again.
I kind of agree with BR in a way, because we are seeing lads age 20 and 21 who are not really ready for the step up, and at that age, they really should be ready to start playing a part if they are good enough.

I didn't think our youth setup and players when Rafa left was all that bad. I felt we were on the right track, a setup that was in tone with the club's philosophy.
As for not seeing our kids being ready at the age of 20-21, I don't particularly feel it's their fault when the manager doesn't embed them into the first team at a young age. Dalglish was great at doing that, something I hoped Rodgers would continue, but he hasn't to the extent of Dalglish

As for our current youth system, from what I've seen, it's evidently clear that Rodgers has our youth playing similar to the first team, why? Maybe because he feels it'd be easier for them to adapt to his system when they take the step up? If this is the case,  I see where he's coming from, but from an individual & development perspective as well as long term plan, I think this is wrong.

When I compare our youth from past to present, couple of significant difference I see is that our past youth players coached under Borrell were better technically and better ball players, but where as today, coached under Inglethorpe/Beale, we have become more direct, thus resulting a drop in the technical aspect .
With the plethora of talent we have in todays youth (potential that I believe can rival the big clubs), I do worry it could all go to waste with a lack of opportunities or our players becoming 1 dimensional and falling into that stereotype English player because of coaching methods

Rafa had his system in place and it seemed to be doing well, then BR got a bee in his bonnet about the young players not being ready to step up to the first team soon enough and revamped it yet again.
I think one of the main problems is that the "vision" keeps changing, and that we lack continuity.
I kind of agree with BR in a way, because we are seeing lads age 20 and 21 who are not really ready for the step up, and at that age, they really should be ready to start playing a part if they are good enough.

Rafa did more than Houllier and probably Roy Evans (who inherited a good youth system). But I feel Brendan's the right man and in all honesty, I'm more excited for his reforms than Rafa's setup. Primarily, Rafa got our youth scouting network up to ship shape, but in terms of the actual coaching, I feel Brendan's methods are more applicable and relevant for the youngsters.

If we are judging the youngest age groups within the Academy at Kirkby, then there is actually a lot of positivity regarding the way our U16s are progressing. A lot of the U21s haven't really got the skills that are ideal for Brendan because he only arrived three years ago and they were past a certain stage of development so I wouldn't be too concerned if many of them fall by the wayside (though I have high hopes for a good few). That said, a criticism of Brendan that PurpleMonkey touches upon above is that he would lose absolutely nothing to simply give these lads a try like Kenny did - it cannot be any worse than loan or transfer signing the likes of Moses, Alberto or Cissokho for example.

Thankfully, the current U16s have been playing with Brendan's methods for a good few years now, and if we regard a young mind like a sponge in that it absorbs a lot more information, then naturally they should be better than the current batch of U21s when they get to that level - simply because they were at a younger age when Rodgers arrived with his methods and have maximised coaching time. And with Pep Linjders - by all accounts - doing a fantastic job with the U16s, then there is a cause for optimism that those lads there will be getting secure contracts with Liverpool by time they get to senior level, and hopefully be able to provide us with quality depth as a result.

Whatever you think of Rodgers as the senior manager, I honestly think with his experience of being a youth coach and his innovative coaching expertise - in addition to hiring experts like Pep Lijnders - that we have a youth coaching structure that must be kept in place with or without Rodgers.

Hypothetically, say if Rodgers has a bad start and is sacked, I feel it is imperative for the new manager to sustain this current youth setup. Again, perhaps the only way to ensure this is by hiring a DOF who oversees the broad concept of the club and sustaining a youth policy is something that a Director of Football can do, thereby enhancing more stability. If sustainability to this structure can occur, then whatever happens with Rodgers next season, we may still be able to look back on his time at Liverpool and actually see a lasting legacy there regarding youth. Because of the lack of attention towards managerial imput towards youth systems, we as football fans are primed to believe that only the results that matter with the manager is what counts, but take away all that fuss and bluster of the English media, and we would do well as fans to recognise that managerial regard for youth systems is an imperative to any manager in any club. And far too often, it is easy to neglect the vital importance of this issue.

Mangers come and go, philosophy changes within the first team, but one thing that should always be constant should be our youth, and Rodgers stripping our last youth system in favour of his and nurturing our youth to his liking is wrong in my opinion. Our youth vision needs not be in aligned with the managers philosophy, but to the club's philosophy.

I didn't think our youth setup and players when Rafa left was all that bad. I felt we were on the right track, a setup that was in tone with the club's philosophy.
As for not seeing our kids being ready at the age of 20-21, I don't particularly feel it's their fault when the manager doesn't embed them into the first team at a young age. Dalglish was great at doing that, something I hoped Rodgers would continue, but he hasn't to the extent of Dalglish

As for our current youth system, from what I've seen, it's evidently clear that Rodgers has our youth playing similar to the first team, why? Maybe because he feels it'd be easier for them to adapt to his system when they take the step up? If this is the case,  I see where he's coming from, but from an individual & development perspective as well as long term plan, I think this is wrong.

When I compare our youth from past to present, couple of significant difference I see is that our past youth players coached under Borrell were better technically and better ball players, but where as today, coached under Inglethorpe/Beale, we have become more direct, thus resulting a drop in the technical aspect .
With the plethora of talent we have in todays youth (potential that I believe can rival the big clubs), I do worry it could all go to waste with a lack of opportunities or our players becoming 1 dimensional and falling into that stereotype English player because of coaching methods

I really don't believe that is the case PM. From what I've seen there is a significant emphasis on technical skills and ball retention and control. Honestly, local folk who have watched the U16s (their matches aren't broadcast) are highly impressed with the way they are playing with the ball.

I really don't believe that is the case PM. From what I've seen there is a significant emphasis on technical skills and ball retention and control. Honestly, local folk who have watched the U16s (their matches aren't broadcast) are highly impressed with the way they are playing with the ball.

My irk is more with the U21's, the players from 18+. Not really seen the U16's, so I have no right to comment on them :p

Watching the Portuguese team yesterday, even though they are slightly older and some are more experienced, I feel our U21 team is just as talented in terms of ability, but we seem to be lagging behind when we reach that age group of 18-21. Players like, Wilson, Ojo, Canos, Kent etc with an abundance of skill and potential, but do not seem as comfortable on the ball as they should in my opinion.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but from what I read, the likes of Ajax, Barca & Arsenal play keep the same philosophy throughout their youth setup, from u10's going right through to their u21's?
You may be right in our players u16 being coached significantly on technical skills and ball retention and control, but from what I've seen upwards, I just feel it's totally different under Inglethorpe/Beale.

My irk is more with the U21's, the players from 18+. Not really seen the U16's, so I have no right to comment on them :p

Watching the Portuguese team yesterday, even though they are slightly older and some are more experienced, I feel our U21 team is just as talented in terms of ability, but we seem to be lagging behind when we reach that age group of 18-21. Players like, Wilson, Ojo, Canos, Kent etc with an abundance of skill and potential, but do not seem as comfortable on the ball as they should in my opinion.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but from what I read, the likes of Ajax, Barca & Arsenal play keep the same philosophy throughout their youth setup, from u10's going right through to their u21's?
You may be right in our players u16 being coached significantly on technical skills and ball retention and control, but from what I've seen upwards, I just feel it's totally different under Inglethorpe/Beale.

To be honest mate I haven't watched the U21s all that often - having only seen them play the odd game that is shown on BT Sport at Anfield, but I thought we were decent and that the philosophy of retaining the ball on the ground, passing and possession was there to see. It's not Barca I'll admit but it wasn't any worse than say Man Utd U21 and other U21 teams I've watched on the same channel. But I am fairly certain it is Rodeger's plan to let them play the exact same way as the senior team. Here's an article about Pep Linjders that is quite insightful.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2015/03/liverpool-academy-focus-the-methods-of-pepijn-lijnders/

Mangers come and go, philosophy changes within the first team, but one thing that should always be constant should be our youth, and Rodgers stripping our last youth system in favour of his and nurturing our youth to his liking is wrong in my opinion. Our youth vision needs not be in aligned with the managers philosophy, but to the club's philosophy.

I fully agree and without trying to sound like a broken record, I know I've mentioned this once or twice, it's why I'm an advocate of a DoF to run the football club from the football side of course.

He will shape and implement the vision forn the club moving forward and any Head Coach works to, and alongside, that.

Some very well thought out and intelligent post here by TheleftpegofRayKennedy, Son Of A Gun. PurpleMonkey and hardcoresoldier I could read post like this all day long. Speaks to a lot of my concerns…. Not sure that my two-penny worth will do justice to analysis given by the aforementioned… Great work Lads

The vision of the club should be to win and only win. It should be drilled from the under 6s putting on their first bibs to the first team that winning is what Liverpool Football Club is all about. We should be breeding winners and buying winners. Real Madrid may not be the most likable of football clubs but F**k me when a player at any level puts on their shirt they know what it means and they know what's expected of them and they know they'll be disposed of if they aren't up to it. As great as Shanks' beliefs were the only reason they have any weight is because the man brought us success.

The Boot Room is just a footnote in history if we were meandering in 5th to 8th place, The Holy Trinity is nothing more than a clever quotable statement if we were meandering in 5th to 8th place, Bill wouldn't have made the people smile as much if we were in 5th to 8th place. He was a winner first and foremost that's the example that should be followed.

Our owners aren't winners they're focussed on balancing the books and that's fine if they have people are winners around them but they don't. Our manager should be sitting in an office drawing up minimum targets that should be reached. We should at least get a 60% points return which would give us 68 points we should be keeping at least 15 clean sheets. We should be scoring a minimum 60 goals and then our aim should be to reach those targets as quickly as possible (around the 30th matchday would be nice) and then build on it when we get there.

Ings should be saying to himself that he has to hit at least 15 goals in the league next season and when he hits 15 his next aim should be 20. Mignolet should be on the phone to the rest of the lads telling them he'll keep at least 15 shutouts they should focus on covering him and putting the ball in the other onion bag.

That's my vision for Liverpool anyway. Setting a bar and then raising it once we've reached it. All of the philosophies and other nonsense will take care of itself we should just be winning.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on the Academy, then! 

Men, or rather a man, with vision and the strength of character to follow it through relentlessly, that's what we need.  In other words, a DoF.  Must admit I hadn't really seen a DoF as that important as long as we had the right manager, but I'm swayed after this.  Some terrific posts, lads.

How about what LFC stands for?
I mean back in the 70's and 80's we were like gods among men.  We were more than a club, we were a living legend, a secret formula, above the level of every other club in terms of quality, confidence and passion.  We also had that Liverpool spirit, the heart in the community, that fight, that love, that 'sod the rest of you' attitude. 

Is it because we no longer have many scousers in the staff (in general) that that seems to have been lost?  In becoming a cosmopolitan, modern-era, world-brand commercial entity with foreign players, staff and owners, has LFC lost it's soul?  I think the temptingly simple answer might be 'yes'!

Anyway, perhaps this too comes back to the Academy question.  I know they're not just kids from Huyton and Bootle any more, but is this the way to reconnect with the/a 'Liverpool Way'?