A Time for Reflection

The Labour Party in the UK has recently undergone a catastrophic defeat and is now in a process of reflecting on where it wants to be in the future. I believe that LFC is at a similar crossroads and we have a similar choice to make – the choice is between sentimentality and ruthlessness.

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb. We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league. And that was when there were only United to beat. Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players. Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did. If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition, once-in-a-lifetime managers.

There is only one way we can achieve success – that is to buy young, play flexible attacking football and have the team grow together. If we do not win the league with Brendan it will be a manager LIKE Brendan. That is the strategy that the owners have put into place – and with it we banged in a hundred goals and came a hair’s breadth from winning the league. Going back to the old way , which failed for twenty years would signal the death of this club as a “big” team.

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it. We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

Wow so your putting a drunk talking sh*te say anything for a few quid to the papers up there with Shankly.

Especially after Clough's comments on Hillsborough - shame on you!!

- so forget waiting for the next Clough or Shankly we would just wait wait for the next Shankly instead - a once in TWO lifetimes manager.

You illustrate the point perfectly - have a star.

That ~@£~ clough. why we talking about him in same breath as Shanks.

And I totally agree with the view that it was suarez who got us close to league last season, yes BR & the rest of the squad, obv. played thier part, and deserve huge credit. But without the main man suarez, it would never have been possible.

- so forget waiting for the next Clough or Shankly we would just wait wait for the next Shankly instead - a once in TWO lifetimes manager.

You illustrate the point perfectly - have a star.

Well we could have offered Carlo Ancelloti the job - you know only other manager other than Paisley to win three European Cups and would of came here. Forget the star and shove it up your arse 

Well we could have offered Carlo Ancelloti the job - you know only other manager other than Paisley to win three European Cups and would of came here. Forget the star and shove it up your arse 

Isnt he having an operation and taking a year out ?

And we have a manager currently.

Well we could have offered Carlo Ancelloti the job - you know only other manager other than Paisley to win three European Cups and would of came here. Forget the star and shove it up your arse 

We don't need a Paisley or Ancelotti we need a manager who can come into a team that hasn't won the league in decades and rebuild.

Try again. 

Wow so your putting a drunk talking sh*te say anything for a few quid to the papers up there with Shankly.

Especially after Clough's comments on Hillsborough - shame on you!!

Shows you the F***ing gobshites getting on here when somebody thinks the F***ing sh*te he spouts is worth crediting.
Wish I had a gobs***e obliterator on my spyware.

Shows you the f**king gobshites getting on here when somebody thinks the f**king sh*te he spouts is worth crediting.
Wish I had a gobs***e obliterator on my spyware.

Funny how much time you spend talking about me though stuey - cheers for contributing 

The Labour Party in the UK has recently undergone a catastrophic defeat and is now in a process of reflecting on where it wants to be in the future. I believe that LFC is at a similar crossroads and we have a similar choice to make – the choice is between sentimentality and ruthlessness.

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb. We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league. And that was when there were only United to beat. Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players. Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did. If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition, once-in-a-lifetime managers.

There is only one way we can achieve success – that is to buy young, play flexible attacking football and have the team grow together. If we do not win the league with Brendan it will be a manager LIKE Brendan. That is the strategy that the owners have put into place – and with it we banged in a hundred goals and came a hair’s breadth from winning the league. Going back to the old way , which failed for twenty years would signal the death of this club as a “big” team.

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it. We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

Yawn.

Yawn.

Absolute F***ing n*b Chris.

The Labour Party in the UK has recently undergone a catastrophic defeat and is now in a process of reflecting on where it wants to be in the future. I believe that LFC is at a similar crossroads and we have a similar choice to make – the choice is between sentimentality and ruthlessness.

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb. We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league. And that was when there were only United to beat. Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players. Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did. If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition, once-in-a-lifetime managers.

There is only one way we can achieve success – that is to buy young, play flexible attacking football and have the team grow together. If we do not win the league with Brendan it will be a manager LIKE Brendan. That is the strategy that the owners have put into place – and with it we banged in a hundred goals and came a hair’s breadth from winning the league. Going back to the old way , which failed for twenty years would signal the death of this club as a “big” team.

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it. We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

What do you define as the 'old way'?

I wasn't aware that the only way to achieve success was to buy young players? Thanks for pointing that out. I could have swore that the majority of successful teams build slowly and surely, blending youth with experience.

Are you totally dismissing the fact that had we been properly defensively coached we would have won the League? Oh no, i forgot, you are one of the people who blamed the 'Gerrard slip'.

I see that in your post you have totally dismissed the importance of the academy as well?

Fair play, Hollywood Balls, you are back with a bang.

What do you define as the 'old way'?

I wasn't aware that the only way to achieve success was to buy young players? Thanks for pointing that out. I could have swore that the majority of successful teams build slowly and surely, blending youth with experience.

Are you totally dismissing the fact that had we been properly defensively coached we would have won the League? Oh no, i forgot, you are one of the people who blamed the 'Gerrard slip'.

I see that in your post you have totally dismissed the importance of the academy as well?

Fair play, Hollywood Balls, you are back with a bang.

It's OK it's pretty clear you don't have much understanding of the game - let me help you.

"Old way" - pick anything after we won our last title to before FSG arrived.

Yes, the slip lost us the league - Gerrard blames himself for that but obviously you know better.

Your point about being "properly defensively coached" is just silly. Pick any team from the period I mentioned - at the end of the season you could say "we should have scored more goals/we should have let less in" - fact is what we did that season was almost unprecedented - I can't think of many times when a team has played the most exciting football in the English league and gone from seventh to being champions in one season - perhaps you can give us some examples otherwise though?

The academy model isn't that reliable though it has its place.

Think that deals with most of the nonsense. 

Hollywood, already getting the excuses in for a potential sh*te transfer window! That's a good little PR man, fetch!

So we want a Brian Clough like manager.

A fella with two League Titles in over 20 years of management, getting his side relegated then running away rather than staying to bring them back up, took backhanders and was basically a c**t.

Okay who in the flying F**k gave Balls a +1?

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it. We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

 Awe bless, the chief PR man's issuing a rallying cry to save the Club from fans that want and expect us to win things.  Are the big bosses getting worried that the nasty internet warriors might cause them a bit of bother?

Actualy I'm glad you're back, you've given me my fight back 

Awe bless, the chief PR man's issuing a rallying cry to save the Club from fans that want and expect us to win things.  Are the big bosses getting worried that the nasty internet warriors might cause them a bit of bother?

Actualy I'm glad you're back, you've given me my fight back 

Oh wow, I'll stand back I can't WAIT to see the fireworks.

Yeh, we will win a lot moaning about the manager's teeth and his girlfriend.

We have a strategy and we need to stick to it - if you have a better one let's hear it.

Oh wow, I'll stand back I can't WAIT to see the fireworks.

Yeh, we will win a lot moaning about the manager's teeth and his girlfriend.

We have a strategy and we need to stick to it - if you have a better one let's hear it.

We? 

Don't lump us malcontents in with the hierarchy, we're the ones destroying the Club, remember?

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb. We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league. And that was when there were only United to beat. Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players. Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did. If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition,

Im just curious when did we try buying the best players available I must have missed it .

Oh wow, I'll stand back I can't WAIT to see the fireworks.

Yeh, we will win a lot moaning about the manager's teeth and his girlfriend.

We have a strategy and we need to stick to it - if you have a better one let's hear it.

Eagerly awaiting your evidence of this being the best (and only) strategy to take us back to the top.

Eagerly awaiting your evidence of this being the best (and only) strategy to take us back to the top.

It's the only strategy that ensures FSG won't lose money on their investment, without being unanimously turned on by supporters.

Eagerly awaiting your evidence of this being the best (and only) strategy to take us back to the top.

What evidence would you like?

We spent two decades following the route most on here have been advocating and couldn't win the league despite being the biggest, and second richest, club in the country.

This is the third season with FSG's choice of manager and in that time we have played some of our best football ever and came with a whisker of winning the league.

If you want to go back how much longer would you like to give it before concluding we need to change? another five years? ten? twenty?

You might ne happy with mediocrity but I'm not.

Im just curious when did we try buying the best players available I must have missed it .

i guess that hinges on your definition of "the best". When Souness, Evans and Houller were here there wasn't much domestic competition for our signings.

Now there are four clubs who play at a higher level than us, have won more recent trophies than us and who can pay the players more than we can.

Right now, all we really have to offer to top level players is our history. That's not enough.

Im just curious when did we try buying the best players available I must have missed it .

He means the time we signed Anelka instead of Diouf...  Oh wait.

What evidence would you like?

We spent two decades following the route most on here have been advocating and couldn't win the league despite being the biggest, and second richest, club in the country.

This is the third season with FSG's choice of manager and in that time we have played some of our best football ever and came with a whisker of winning the league.

If you want to go back how much longer would you like to give it before concluding we need to change? another five years? ten? twenty?

You might ne happy with mediocrity but I'm not.

I asked for evidence why this is the best strategy and all you've said is why previous strategies weren't the best...just because those strategies weren't the best, doesn't mean this one is surely?

I would genuinely like to see some evidence, because right now I feel pretty depressed with where this club is headed.

Your comment on mediocrity is ridiculous because no one on this forum is happy with it, just because we have different beliefs on how to get there doesn't mean you have to be a patronising nobhead.

I asked for evidence why this is the best strategy and all you've said is why previous strategies weren't the best...just because those strategies weren't the best, doesn't mean this one is surely?

I would genuinely like to see some evidence, because right now I feel pretty depressed with where this club is headed.

Your comment on mediocrity is ridiculous because no one on this forum is happy with it, just because we have different beliefs on how to get there doesn't mean you have to be a patronising nobhead.

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

What evidence would you like?

We spent two decades following the route most on here have been advocating and couldn't win the league despite being the biggest, and second richest, club in the country.

This is the third season with FSG's choice of manager and in that time we have played some of our best football ever and came with a whisker of winning the league.

If you want to go back how much longer would you like to give it before concluding we need to change? another five years? ten? twenty?

You might ne happy with mediocrity but I'm not.

What you going to actually do about it, other than pontificate on a football forum?

Exactly!! Talk sh*te like the rest of us basically.

We don't need a Paisley or Ancelotti we need a manager who can come into a team that hasn't won the league in decades and rebuild.

Try again. 

Well Rafa came within a whisker of winning the league buying some good first team players and average joe's for squad players, all the while United were spending, Arsenal were being Arsenal and Chelsea had an unlimited wod of cash, success breed's cash for football clubs, the more successful you are, the more money you earn via prize money, gate receipts, merchandise, tv money, sponsorships etc etc.

This buying young, can't compete with Chelsea, City, Arsenal, United etc, is bollocks, you get a manager in with a good pedigree and respect of the players throughout Europe etc and they will join providing you agree a deal with the other club and agree on wages.

The only people who are destroying the club is not 'Sentimental Fans' as you call them, its the one's playing Russian Roulette bringing in youngsters who may or may not become good enough.

We don't need a Paisley or Ancelotti we need a manager who can come into a team that hasn't won the league in decades and rebuild.

Try again. 

Hahahahaha! Don't know your history that well, how many teams did Paisley and Ancelotti build, quite a few actually only they did it by winning rather than being a yes man who has a penchant for talking out of his arse. You carry on lad it's only going to end in tears for you!

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

John Barnes runs it into the corner and wins corner and doesn't try to play it into the box, we win the league and double-double!

All ifs and maybe's, Gerrard wasn't the only reason we didn't win the league, that joke of a keeper and an inability to defend is also what cost us.

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

Dortmund also continually sold their best players and then struggled this season...sound familiar? They also compete in a far less competitive league, although I can't profess to know the ins and outs of German football.

As for Brendan having been in place three seasons and what more I want....well some silverware would be nice?! I've said this before on here, as great as that season was, we ultimately won nothing and that is all that matters. It's also been the anomaly of Brendan's three seasons, because the other two have been absolute sh*te.

I'm not saying this strategy can't work, I just think it makes it very difficult if everyone across the club, from transfer committee to the players aren't performing at their absolute maximum.

Well Rafa came within a whisker of winning the league buying some good first team players and average joe's for squad players, all the while United were spending, Arsenal were being Arsenal and Chelsea had an unlimited wod of cash, success breed's cash for football clubs, the more successful you are, the more money you earn via prize money, gate receipts, merchandise, tv money, sponsorships etc etc.

This buying young, can't compete with Chelsea, City, Arsenal, United etc, is bollocks, you get a manager in with a good pedigree and respect of the players throughout Europe etc and they will join providing you agree a deal with the other club and agree on wages.

The only people who are destroying the club is not 'Sentimental Fans' as you call them, its the one's playing Russian Roulette bringing in youngsters who may or may not become good enough.

What we are talking about is which system you use to achieve success.

Yes Rafa came close - that's because he is a genius - and now he has been given the job he rightly deserves at the Bernebeau. But attracting the best manager in the world was a diffrent proposition then to the one we have now.

We need a manager who will come in and not only be better than Van Gaal, Wenger, Pellegrini and Mourinho - but be better than all of those with the massive advantages they have of being established, having the cache of playing at the top level and a MASSIVE financial advantage. Oh, and he has to be able to do all that without Premiership experience since the only person alive who ticks the other boxes is Alex Ferguson.

Maybe there's someone out there with those qualities but, even if a manager like that is available to come to our club, he had better be right otherwise it's another five years in the doldrums.

For every Rafa there's five or more Ranieris.

Dortmund also continually sold their best players and then struggled this season...sound familiar? They also compete in a far less competitive league, although I can't profess to know the ins and outs of German football.

As for Brendan having been in place three seasons and what more I want....well some silverware would be nice?! I've said this before on here, as great as that season was, we ultimately won nothing and that is all that matters. It's also been the anomaly of Brendan's three seasons, because the other two have been absolute sh*te.

I'm not saying this strategy can't work, I just think it makes it very difficult if everyone across the club, from transfer committee to the players aren't performing at their absolute maximum.

I've made the same point about Dortmund numerous times - I think Klopp would be far from a guaranteed success although, in my view, he is unarguably a step-up from Brendan at the moment.

Where I disagree with you is that winning is the only possible evidence otherwise we could get in De Matteo. We were good enough to have won the title that season and, if it had happened, it would have been the biggest achievement in our club's history.

Is it really the case that Brendan is either the greatest manager ever or complete garbage? Unlikely.

For every Rafa there's five or more Ranieris.

For every Sterling you turn up, there's hundreds/thousands of Bebe's, clubs release them every year.

There is no formula that guarantee's success, the tried and tested method of getting a good manager in who knows his onions and the only restrictions being placed up on him are the wage budget and transfer budget without interference from the owners on their preference should be the way its done, Managers success and failures then hinge on their own abilities.

For every Sterling you turn up, there's hundreds/thousands of Bebe's, clubs release them every year.

There is no formula that guarantee's success, the tried and tested method of getting a good manager in who knows his onions and the only restrictions being placed up on him are the wage budget and transfer budget without interference from the owners on their preference should be the way its done, Managers success and failures then hinge on their own abilities.

Maybe we could do that in the era when clubs had managers for ten years or more but can we afford to do that now?

Say you DON'T pick the next Rafa how long do you stick with him?

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

I've made the same point about Dortmund numerous times - I think Klopp would be far from a guaranteed success although, in my view, he is unarguably a step-up from Brendan at the moment.

Where I disagree with you is that winning is the only possible evidence otherwise we could get in De Matteo. We were good enough to have won the title that season and, if it had happened, it would have been the biggest achievement in our club's history.

Is it really the case that Brendan is either the greatest manager ever or complete garbage? Unlikely.

I hadn't seen your comments on Klopp/Dortmund so fair enough and I agree, he would be a step up and I'm astonished FSG haven't gone for him whilst he's available because he seems to fit their profile perfectly.

I think winning/continuously challenging to win trophies is evidence for me, but 'apart' from that title challenge (which if we'd won it, we all know we wouldn't be having this debate, but we didn't and we are), what else have we looked like winning? We've meekly gone out of every single cup competition under Brendan and last season just completely collapsed after the game against the mancs, culminating in that humiliating defeat against Stoke and I believe Liverpool should be held to higher standards than that.

Regarding Brendan, no he isn't the greatest ever and nor is he complete garbage, there's always an inbetween. But is he the best man to implement the strategy FSG want? Because despite anyone's reservations about FSG, them and their ideas aren't going anywhere, so as I've seen srslfc post a number of times, we need to make sure every person in their position is the best fit for the job. Is Brendan the best man for the job? Well no, by your own admission Klopp is out there who would be a step up and the changes to his coaching staff would suggest FSG don't think Pascoe and Marsh are the best men for the job either.

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

Rafa won the champions league in his first season with a mixture of Houllier Signings and a few of his own, Kenny had us playing really good football following Roys sacking with a team that was largely inherited from Rafa, We were the form team for the second half of that season following Roys dismissal, if it had been sooner we may have even qualified for the champions league that season, that's just recent history.

So you tell me, how long do we stick with a policy that has seen our current manager deliver one good season with arguably the best in form player in the world for just about one full season that hasn't delivered any silverware at all, the same manager who forgot his sat nav as he got lost somewhere in Europe ?

i guess that hinges on your definition of "the best". When Souness, Evans and Houller were here there wasn't much domestic competition for our signings.

Now there are four clubs who play at a higher level than us, have won more recent trophies than us and who can pay the players more than we can.

Right now, all we really have to offer to top level players is our history. That's not enough.

I take it by thst load of bollox that you cant remember when we bought the best players either .

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

Stop being a f***in bellend, the old way was the best way hence the trophy cabinet being full of tin, and as for blaming Gerrard for losing the title is making you out to be a total KUNT,
This is the type of sh*te I expect to hear from Mancs or f***in plastic chavs and certainly not from a supposed LFC supporter, oh and just for the record, we lost the title by losing points to the likes of Villa and f***in Hull city, points that had we won would have been enough to win us the league, blaming Steven Gerrard arguably the best player ever to wear our shirt is frankly pathetic,

You are talking out of your f***in rectum !


YNWA

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

Another reason FSG's next biggest move is to appoint an experienced DoF.

He sets out the policy for the type of player we buy and the type of players we develop in the youth system and we hire the Head Coach and coaches to fit to that system.

Stop being a f***in bellend, the old way was the best way hence the trophy cabinet being full of tin, and as for blaming Gerrard for losing the title is making you out to be a total KUNT,
This is the type of sh*te I expect to hear from Mancs or f***in plastic chavs and certainly not from a supposed LFC supporter, oh and just for the record, we lost the title by losing points to the likes of Villa and f***in Hull city, points that had we won would have been enough to win us the league, blaming Steven Gerrard arguably the best player ever to wear our shirt is frankly pathetic,

You are talking out of your f***in rectum !

Oh grow up FFS.

This is precisely the point of the thread - because you have a sentimental attachment to Stevie being "our greatest ever player" you get bent out of shape at the mere suggestion he can't walk on water. Everyone makes mistakes in a career - he is as human as Shankly or Paisley or Kenny who all made mistakes. He's the same player who let Suarez in for both goals in the World Cup a few weeks after.

He fu**ed up - get over it. Stevie struggled to deal with it for at least the first half of the season - he certainly wasn't blaming the points lost at Hull - he was man enough to take responsibiilty so I'll tell you what I'll take his opinion over yours.

This is exactly what I mean when I say we have lost the winning mentality. If that was Keegan or Souness or Kenny or Suarez do you think they would have brushed it off and blamed the Hull result?

Sentimentality is killing this club.

Oh grow up FFS.

This is precisely the point of the thread - because you have a sentimental attachment to Stevie being "our greatest ever player" you get bent out of shape at the mere suggestion he can't walk on water. Everyone makes mistakes in a career - he is as human as Shankly or Paisley or Kenny who all made mistakes. He's the same player who let Suarez in for both goals in the World Cup a few weeks after.

He fu**ed up - get over it. Stevie struggled to deal with it for at least the first half of the season - he certainly wasn't blaming the points lost at Hull - he was man enough to take responsibiilty so I'll tell you what I'll take his opinion over yours.

While I don't agree Stevie was entirely at fault for us not winning the league I agree he took a while to get over the end of the previous season.

It's OK it's pretty clear you don't have much understanding of the game - let me help you.

"Old way" - pick anything after we won our last title to before FSG arrived.

Yes, the slip lost us the league - Gerrard blames himself for that but obviously you know better.

Your point about being "properly defensively coached" is just silly. Pick any team from the period I mentioned - at the end of the season you could say "we should have scored more goals/we should have let less in" - fact is what we did that season was almost unprecedented - I can't think of many times when a team has played the most exciting football in the English league and gone from seventh to being champions in one season - perhaps you can give us some examples otherwise though?

The academy model isn't that reliable though it has its place.

Think that deals with most of the nonsense. 

I wouldn't expect Gerrard to lay the blame anywhere else but at his own door, that's the kind of warrior he is.

We lost that League with the pathetic showing at Hull and the capitulation at Crystal Palace.

Our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived and until that changes we will never win anything. At least that fuckwit Pascoe has gone and hopefully we can get somebody with a brain in to help Brendan out.

Now F**k off with yourself Hollywood Horseshit.

Rafa won the champions league in his first season with a mixture of Houllier Signings and a few of his own, Kenny had us playing really good football following Roys sacking with a team that was largely inherited from Rafa, We were the form team for the second half of that season following Roys dismissal, if it had been sooner we may have even qualified for the champions league that season, that's just recent history.

So you tell me, how long do we stick with a policy that has seen our current manager deliver one good season with arguably the best in form player in the world for just about one full season that hasn't delivered any silverware at all, the same manager who forgot his sat nav as he got lost somewhere in Europe ?

Blood, you are wasting your breath on this pr**k. He is a scabby Manc with no balls to back himself up.

Sadly there are a host of smaller clubs who have been trying to buy young and build success and they have had even less success than we have over the last 30 years or so. So why anyone would think this is the only way forward baffles me.

For me the problem hasn't just been about wage restrictions, or not investing enough, it is about buying the "right" players. We have wasted vast amounts and we need to start getting a better return on our investments.

Our buying seems to be haphazard with no direction or plan (or at least none that I can see). Taking players who just happen to be available rather than focusing on the ones we really want and need. 

Certainly I believe not only do we have to start going for the right players but also working harder to "sell the club" to those players. Top players want to go to clubs with ambition and IMO we no longer seem to be a club that looks like it will do anything and everything for success, but a club that's aim is top four rather than winning the league.

   

The Labour Party in the UK has recently undergone a catastrophic defeat and is now in a process of reflecting on where it wants to be in the future. I believe that LFC is at a similar crossroads and we have a similar choice to make – the choice is between sentimentality and ruthlessness.

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb. We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league. And that was when there were only United to beat. Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players. Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did. If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition, once-in-a-lifetime managers.

There is only one way we can achieve success – that is to buy young, play flexible attacking football and have the team grow together. If we do not win the league with Brendan it will be a manager LIKE Brendan. That is the strategy that the owners have put into place – and with it we banged in a hundred goals and came a hair’s breadth from winning the league. Going back to the old way , which failed for twenty years would signal the death of this club as a “big” team.

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it. We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

We've got a bogey  .......  Guess Whose Back ...? 

https://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY?list=RDYVkUvmDQ3HY

Real Thread Title 

          AKA

We need a little controversy ......    It feels so empty without me  HB

(With apologies to Eminem)

Sadly there are a host of smaller clubs who have been trying to buy young and build success and they have had even less success than we have over the last 30 years or so. So why anyone would think this is the only way forward baffles me.

For me the problem hasn't just been about wage restrictions, or not investing enough, it is about buying the "right" players. We have wasted vast amounts and we need to start getting a better return on our investments.

Our buying seems to be haphazard with no direction or plan (or at least none that I can see). Taking players who just happen to be available rather than focusing on the ones we really want and need. 

Certainly I believe not only do we have to start going for the right players but also working harder to "sell the club" to those players. Top players want to go to clubs with ambition and IMO we no longer seem to be a club that looks like it will do anything and everything for success, but a club that's aim is top four rather than winning the league.

   

Somebody seems to think it is set in stone that for every 10 hopefuls bought at least one will turn into a Suarez or dare I say a Sturridge or Sterling, either that or no one has got a F***ing clue and is limiting the manager to £25m signings.

I wouldn't expect Gerrard to lay the blame anywhere else but at his own door, that's the kind of warrior he is.

We lost that League with the pathetic showing at Hull and the capitulation at Crystal Palace.

Our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived and until that changes we will never win anything. At least that fuckwit Pascoe has gone and hopefully we can get somebody with a brain in to help Brendan out.

Now f**k off with yourself Hollywood Horseshit.

, still keeping up with the internet hardman act I see?

And you're factually incorrect about our defence.  Toodle pip. 

HB can I just ask you to fill this in because I'm not 100% sure on your position tbh:

The Owners Should Be :

Because:
*
*
*

The Manager Should Be :

Because:
*
*
*

Other Important Points for the future:
*
*
*

Oh grow up FFS.

This is precisely the point of the thread - because you have a sentimental attachment to Stevie being "our greatest ever player" you get bent out of shape at the mere suggestion he can't walk on water. Everyone makes mistakes in a career - he is as human as Shankly or Paisley or Kenny who all made mistakes. He's the same player who let Suarez in for both goals in the World Cup a few weeks after.

He fu**ed up - get over it. Stevie struggled to deal with it for at least the first half of the season - he certainly wasn't blaming the points lost at Hull - he was man enough to take responsibiilty so I'll tell you what I'll take his opinion over yours.

This is exactly what I mean when I say we have lost the winning mentality. If that was Keegan or Souness or Kenny or Suarez do you think they would have brushed it off and blamed the Hull result?

Sentimentality is killing this club.

f***in hell fella your arse must be getting jealous with the amount of sh*te coming from your gob, you think I'm being sentimental because I don't blame Stevie for losing the title, you get over yourself f***in BAWBAG, I can't be f***in arsed arguing the point with a f***in no mark like you, simple fact is we as a club lost points previous to the Chelsea game points that could have sealed the title even without stevies slip, not forgetting our capitulation against Palace,


Him taking the blame gives you an idea what type of fella he is, shouldering the blame to take any guilt away from his peers, I don't give a shiny sh*te what you think muppet, sentimentality is killing the club ? No don't think so, what is killing the club is our tightarse owners content in mediocrity whilst lining up a mass profit when they eventually sell, that and dickhead supporters who would rather blame club legends and fail to get behind the club as a whole, sound familiar, Balls, or in normal parlance, BOLLOCKS !!


YNWA

HB can I just ask you to fill this in because I'm not 100% sure on your position tbh:

The Owners Should Be :

Because:
*
*
*

The Manager Should Be :

Because:
*
*
*

Other Important Points for the future:
*
*
*

Hmm not really sure how to fill that in it's too open ended.

When you say "the owners should be" for example should I be putting "FSG" or "DIC" or do you mean "the owners should be (eg) less hands-on"

F**kin hell fella your arse must be getting jealous with the amount of sh*te coming from your gob, you think I'm being sentimental because I don't blame Stevie for losing the title, you get over yourself f***in BAWBAG, I can't be f***in arsed arguing the point with a f***in no mark like you, simple fact is we as a club lost points previous to the Chelsea game points that could have sealed the title even without stevies slip, not forgetting our capitulation against Palace,


Him taking the blame gives you an idea what type of fella he is, shouldering the blame to take any guilt away from his peers, I don't give a shiny sh*te what you think muppet, sentimentality is killing the club ? No don't think so, what is killing the club is our tightarse owners content in mediocrity whilst lining up a mass profit when they eventually sell, that and dickhead supporters who would rather blame club legends and fail to get behind the club as a whole, sound familiar, Balls, or in normal parlance, BOLLOCKS !!


YNWA

Blah blah blah. If it was Allen who had slipped you would be all over it like a tramp on a kipper. It's pathetic.

, still keeping up with the internet hardman act I see?

And you're factually incorrect about our defence.  Toodle pip. 

I don't understand how anyone who says that a defence which has conceded 141 league goals in 3 seasons is sh*te is somehow "factually incorrect". Are you trying to tell us that 141 goals conceded in 114 games is a good statistic?

Oh and this is considering the fact that we had conceded 119 league goals in the 3 seasons preceding Brendan's arrival so even though we've shipped 22 more goals in 3 seasons since he's been here you still think that its "factually incorrect" to say that our defence has been sh*te since Brendan has been here?

Is there any space for middle ground ?

Life isnt the best it can be at the club BUT its not as bad as its being made out to be and there is definately room from improvement

Most of that responsibilty rests with the manager

It is him who ultimately must deliver the correct tactics on the pitch to be successful

He is the owners manager - they changed their thinking to get him so he must prove them and us he is good enough

If not then he will be fired and the owners will go back to the DoF and get a manager in who will work with one.

I don't understand how anyone who says that a defence which has conceded 141 league goals in 3 seasons is sh*te is somehow "factually incorrect". Are you trying to tell us that 141 goals conceded in 114 games is a good statistic?

No. What he said was:

Our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived and until that changes we will never win anything.

We spent a good portion of the season playing 1343 which tightened us up at the back resulting in Mignolet tied  with Joe Hart and ahead of Courtois in the running for the Golden Glove with one game to go in the season so, yes, its is factually incorrect to say "our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived".

No. What he said was:

We spent a good portion of the season playing 1343 which tightened us up at the back resulting in Mignolet tied  with Joe Hart and ahead of Courtois in the running for the Golden Glove with one game to go in the season so, yes, its is factually incorrect to say "our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived".

But the golden gloves doesn't take into.account the number of goals we concede it's based around the number of clean sheets we keep. We still shipped 48 goals we still had only the 8th best defensive record in the premier league.

Oh and we didn't win anything so HS is right and please tell me in which "factual" world will we win anything if we have the 8th best defensive record In ANY particular competition.

As a matter of fact name 1 league season in.ANY country, one Cup competition in ANY country , one continental competition, ANY international competition where the team with the 8th best defensive record in that competition went on to win it. Until you provide evidence of such then HS is right we won't win anything until that changes, our defence has been sh*te since Brendan has been here and your "facts" are hogwash.

Blah blah blah. If it was Allen who had slipped you would be all over it like a tramp on a kipper. It's pathetic.

Nah your pathetic fella, Allen slips, Skrtle slips whoever slips, your missing the f***in point wankstain, the points were already lost prior to the Chav game and the Palace debacle, and not because of anyone slipping, F**k me fella are you really that f***in thick ?


YNWA

But the golden gloves doesn't take into.account the number of goals we concede it's based around the number of clean sheets we keep. We still shipped 48 goals we still had only the 8th best defensive record in the premier league.

Oh and we didn't win anything so HS is right and please tell me in which "factual" world will we win anything if we have the 8th best defensive record In ANY particular competition.

As a matter of fact name 1 league season in.ANY country, one Cup competition in ANY country , one continental competition, ANY international competition where the team with the 8th best defensive record in that competition went on to win it. Until you provide evidence of such then HS is right we won't win anything until that changes, our defence has been sh*te since Brendan has been here and your "facts" are hogwash.

You are missing the point.

We went into the last game having kept more clean sheets than the league champions.

Therefore the claim that the defence has been "sh*te since Brendan got here" is, as you put it, hogwash, since, by definition, we had a better defensive record than the eventual champions for a significant part of the season.

The fact we ended the season with the 8th worst defence shows how sh*t we were at the beginning and end but it also reinforces further how the defence was sorted during the period I mentioned.

And for your information, we finished the 2013-14 season with the 8th worst defence - a period when you were no doubt jizzing your pants at the prospect of winning the title - which was clearly within our grasp.

Nah your pathetic fella, Allen slips, Skrtle slips whoever slips, your missing the f***in point wankstain, the points were already lost prior to the Chav game and the Palace debacle, and not because of anyone slipping, f**k me fella are you really that f***in thick ?

so we were just playing out the end of the season then were we? Chelsea match not really that important was it?

Yep you sound convincing.

Hmm not really sure how to fill that in it's too open ended.

When you say "the owners should be" for example should I be putting "FSG" or "DIC" or do you mean "the owners should be (eg) less hands-on"

Just who you think so yes, FSG or would you rather someone else? And then why FSG in the three points below. It's a genuine interest just to gauge exactly where you're coming from.

Just who you think so yes, FSG or would you rather someone else? And then why FSG in the three points below. It's a genuine interest just to gauge exactly where you're coming from.

Owners-wise it's difficult to comment on alternatives since I don't know who else would be available.

Certainly I wouldn't want us to be a petrodollar club paying players massive wages with money gleaned from all sorts of human rights abuses.

Neither would I want us to be the rich plaything of a Gazillionaire who decided to change our kit to all-blue for example.

Lastly, I don't want us owned by owners who would buy the club by leveraging huge debts against it like H&G or the Glazers.


In terms of the ownership model therefore I think FSG offer what I would be looking for - the intention to grow us a club based on our own success.


Secondly, in terms of running the club, I want to see owners who can take calculated risks and be innovative with our approach to things - sometimes that will work, sometimes it will fail but, in the modern game which relies so heavily on money, it is the only route to success when we have four clubs ahead of us in the league.


Lastly, in terms of characteristics, I want owners who are bold, show ambition and are ruthless. I think those qualities are priorities if we get to where we want to be. Looking at FSG i think its clear that that is their modus operandi. And by the way, by "ambition" I don't mean blowing 40 million on the flavour-of-the-month striker. I mean the kind of vision where you enter an unfamiliar sport and have the courage to back a vision which may involve sacking a club legend like Kenny because you think you know how to run the game better than he does. Right or wrong, that's undoubtedly ambitious.

So in terms of ownership model, operational details and characteristics I'd say FSG are my preferred options in this league.

Owners-wise it's difficult to comment on alternatives since I don't know who else would be available.

Certainly I wouldn't want us to be a petrodollar club paying players massive wages with money gleaned from all sorts of human rights abuses.

Neither would I want us to be the rich plaything of a Gazillionaire who decided to change our kit to all-blue for example.

Lastly, I don't want us owned by owners who would buy the club by leveraging huge debts against it like H&G or the Glazers.


In terms of the ownership model therefore I think FSG offer what I would be looking for - the intention to grow us a club based on our own success.


Secondly, in terms of running the club, I want to see owners who can take calculated risks and be innovative with our approach to things - sometimes that will work, sometimes it will fail but, in the modern game which relies so heavily on money, it is the only route to success when we have four clubs ahead of us in the league.


Lastly, in terms of characteristics, I want owners who are bold, show ambition and are ruthless. I think those qualities are priorities if we get to where we want to be. Looking at FSG i think its clear that that is their modus operandi. And by the way, by "ambition" I don't mean blowing 40 million on the flavour-of-the-month striker. I mean the kind of vision where you enter an unfamiliar sport and have the courage to back a vision which may involve sacking a club legend like Kenny because you think you know how to run the game better than he does. Right or wrong, that's undoubtedly ambitious.

So in terms of ownership model, operational details and characteristics I'd say FSG are my preferred options in this league.

Ok, thanks.

And the manager?

Ok, thanks.

And the manager?

For me the choice is between Rodgers and Klopp - i'd forget Ancelotti - he has proved adept at handling big players in well set-up teams but we need a coach that can add value to younger players whilst rebuilding the club. We need a Shankly not a Paisley.

There are strong arguments for Klopp.

As it stands he would represent as step-up from Brendan because he has proven he can win crucial matches and, so far, Brendan hasn't. That's why Klopp is the owners first choice - they have been in for him three times including meeting his representatives after Christmas. it's ironic that many of the idiots who have been slagging Brendan off all along for his teeth actually want to bring in FSG's first choice and they call ME the plant!


The problem is opportunity cost. For him to come here he would have to be given assurances of investment. Bringing Klopp in now would mean him restructuring the team around his own style and learning the league. That might cost 200 million pounds and take another four years. Meanwhile could we afford to let our rivals get even further ahead of us with the improved TV deal?  We need to get a manager in like Klopp before he ends up winning everything and is thus in demand from every club in Europe.


What is the difference between Klopp and Brendan? Klopp didn't set the world alight when he was at Mainz  - he got them promoted then relegated then couldn't get them up again. When he got the Dortmund job he won a cup but then ended up fifth then sixth the following season. After he went on to achieve success he had his best players taken off him and finished seventh. Sound familiar? In Germany he had a set of good players but didn't have much say in recruiting them. He also only had one big team to beat, we have four. He also had a massive advantage of Dortmund's fanatical fans. Can we say our team gets a huge boost from playing at Anfield? Plus - how do you fit Stevie into a Klopp side?


Nevertheless, had Klopp come here instead of Dortmund he would have been subject to the same abuse Brendan has - he would be getting slagged for his glasses or his teeth or his love of christian rock.


Brendan.

Brendan still has a lot to prove but what we know is that, at a similar stage of his career he came up with Swansea on a shoestring budget (they were training at a David lloyd gym FFS) and taught the rest of the league, including us, a footballing lesson. As i pointed out at the time everyone was crying out for Steve Clarke to be employed as a "defence coach", Brendan ended that season with more clean sheets than our star-studded squad which cost multitudes of ours and was coached by Kenny and Clarke.


Like Klopp, given the right players, Brendan produced some of the best football this club has ever seen. We banged in a hundred goals, thrashed some of our rivals and were easily good enough to have won the title if things had gone our way (as were Chelsea). Going from 7th to champions is virtually unprecedented - Champions nearly always finish at least 2nd the season before then get their summer signings right. And let's be right - we last won the league when Everton did. If we had landed the title with that team it would have eclipsed Istanbul as our greatest achievement and winning in that manner would have catapulted Brendan to the levels of our greatest ever managers, ahead of Rafa and Fagan for me. Imagine Everton doing what we nearly did - it's inconceivable.

This season the only attacking outlets we had were Countinho and Sterling who ran out of steam. If we had signed Sanchez or even kept Sturridge fit we would have made top 4.

That's why the owners have stuck with Brendan - instead of rebuilding the whole team they reason that an injection of 30-40 million may be enough to get us back on the curve.

We sacked Rafa the season after we came second - who knows how often that chance to build on that success will come round again? Many of the same idiots who were shouting for Rafa to go now want to do the same to Brendan on grounds of his "ego" or his girlfriend or some other such bollocks. No doubt there were pricks who wanted to sack Shankly when he came 7th in the season he had to manage European competition for the first time.

Which new, in demand, manager would come to work for a club like that?

There are no guarantees but I would say that, looking at the opportunity cost and what Brendan has done so far it is the smart move to continue with our work so far. We just have to be vigilant that the whingers don't scupper things before they have been given a chance to succeed or fail on their own terms.

For me the choice is between Rodgers and Klopp - i'd forget Ancelotti - he has proved adept at handling big players in well set-up teams but we need a coach that can add value to younger players whilst rebuilding the club. We need a Shankly not a Paisley.

There are strong arguments for Klopp.

As it stands he would represent as step-up from Brendan because he has proven he can win crucial matches and, so far, Brendan hasn't. That's why Klopp is the owners first choice - they have been in for him three times including meeting his representatives after Christmas. it's ironic that many of the idiots who have been slagging Brendan off all along for his teeth actually want to bring in FSG's first choice and they call ME the plant!


The problem is opportunity cost. For him to come here he would have to be given assurances of investment. Bringing Klopp in now would mean him restructuring the team around his own style and learning the league. That might cost 200 million pounds and take another four years. Meanwhile could we afford to let our rivals get even further ahead of us with the improved TV deal?  We need to get a manager in like Klopp before he ends up winning everything and is thus in demand from every club in Europe.


What is the difference between Klopp and Brendan? Klopp didn't set the world alight when he was at Mainz  - he got them promoted then relegated then couldn't get them up again. When he got the Dortmund job he won a cup but then ended up fifth then sixth the following season. After he went on to achieve success he had his best players taken off him and finished seventh. Sound familiar? In Germany he had a set of good players but didn't have much say in recruiting them. He also only had one big team to beat, we have four. He also had a massive advantage of Dortmund's fanatical fans. Can we say our team gets a huge boost from playing at Anfield? Plus - how do you fit Stevie into a Klopp side?


Nevertheless, had Klopp come here instead of Dortmund he would have been subject to the same abuse Brendan has - he would be getting slagged for his glasses or his teeth or his love of christian rock.


Brendan.

Brendan still has a lot to prove but what we know is that, at a similar stage of his career he came up with Swansea on a shoestring budget (they were training at a David lloyd gym FFS) and taught the rest of the league, including us, a footballing lesson. As i pointed out at the time everyone was crying out for Steve Clarke to be employed as a "defence coach", Brendan ended that season with more clean sheets than our star-studded squad which cost multitudes of ours and was coached by Kenny and Clarke.


Like Klopp, given the right players, Brendan produced some of the best football this club has ever seen. We banged in a hundred goals, thrashed some of our rivals and were easily good enough to have won the title if things had gone our way (as were Chelsea). Going from 7th to champions is virtually unprecedented - Champions nearly always finish at least 2nd the season before then get their summer signings right. And let's be right - we last won the league when Everton did. If we had landed the title with that team it would have eclipsed Istanbul as our greatest achievement and winning in that manner would have catapulted Brendan to the levels of our greatest ever managers, ahead of Rafa and Fagan for me. Imagine Everton doing what we nearly did - it's inconceivable.

This season the only attacking outlets we had were Countinho and Sterling who ran out of steam. If we had signed Sanchez or even kept Sturridge fit we would have made top 4.

That's why the owners have stuck with Brendan - instead of rebuilding the whole team they reason that an injection of 30-40 million may be enough to get us back on the curve.

We sacked Rafa the season after we came second - who knows how often that chance to build on that success will come round again? Many of the same idiots who were shouting for Rafa to go now want to do the same to Brendan on grounds of his "ego" or his girlfriend or some other such bollocks. No doubt there were pricks who wanted to sack Shankly when he came 7th in the season he had to manage European competition for the first time.

Which new, in demand, manager would come to work for a club like that?

There are no guarantees but I would say that, looking at the opportunity cost and what Brendan has done so far it is the smart move to continue with our work so far. We just have to be vigilant that the whingers don't scupper things before they have been given a chance to succeed or fail on their own terms.

Thank you.

Now... Can I make a suggestion, take it or leave it.

Post like this more often, because sometimes you get so caught up in what other people are saying I literally don't have a clue what you're point is meant to be. This was a good read and you made some good points. True I don't agree with all of it necessarily but I was never expecting to.

Now can we leave the bickering and start making some points about football again. I think it's clear everyone involved has the capacity to do so and fair play to you HB I didn't think you did to be quite frank. I don't think you're a "plant" because if you are you're doing a horrific job for the most part and... Why would FSG who don't bother to turn up to Steven Gerrard's last game bother with an online forum's opinion? These people are cut throat and don't really care about us at the end of the day.

So no... I don't think you're a 'plant'... Or as ignorant as I once thought. Nice post(s).

Thank you.

Now... Can I make a suggestion, take it or leave it.

Post like this more often, because sometimes you get so caught up in what other people are saying I literally don't have a clue what you're point is meant to be. This was a good read and you made some good points. True I don't agree with all of it necessarily but I was never expecting to.

Now can we leave the bickering and start making some points about football again. I think it's clear everyone involved has the capacity to do so and fair play to you HB I didn't think you did to be quite frank. I don't think you're a "plant" because if you are you're doing a horrific job for the most part and... Why would FSG who don't bother to turn up to Steven Gerrard's last game bother with an online forum's opinion? These people are cut throat and don't really care about us at the end of the day.

So no... I don't think you're a 'plant'... Or as ignorant as I once thought. Nice post(s).

Sorry to butt in here, but I just want to say that I've had some very interesting conversations with HB, both in threads and via PM.
We disagree on a lot of things, but I respect his points and he reciprocates, and I think the reason for this is because I was one who didn't abuse and denigrate him when he first joined.
Like many (including me) he got a lot of abuse when he first started posting, and (also like me) he gave those people pretty short shrift, which has led many to think he is just plain arsey and unable to get along.
I've found him to be an intelligent, respectful and interesting poster, and the reason why is simple: it's because I didn't abuse him as soon as he arrived just because he didn't agree with me or follow the consensus.

FWIW I enjoy your posts as well, and find them to be well thought out and interesting.

Again, sorry for butting in there.

Two good posts!

Swab has it exactly right - it would be entirely boring to come on a forum and have everyone agree with you - i am happy to engage with anyone but, like Swab, anyone flinging personal insults is not going to get a respectful discussion about formations in reply.

And yes, Magillionaire, the owners don't really care about the opinions of a subset of posters on LFCReds - I try and see the logic in what they do, they are self-made men who have made it big taking a series of carefully calculated risks and hopefully they are using that approach to bring success to the club.

Cheers all round! 

All right, enough back patting, let's get back to the neck wringing!

On topic, (and yes, good topic, interesting posts!) I think I'll reserve judgement on both owners and manager till the end of the season. A while ago there was a topic titled FSG's biggest summer, which I think is true. If they now go out and buy quality over quantity, we could be well set up for next season. However, it's an even bigger summer for Rodgers. If he gets his targets, as he appears to be doing, it really is all on him next season. FSG cannot be used as a shield for Rodgers to hide behind.

Yep - agree with that.

This is the first season we will see a "Rodgers" side where he doesn't have to accomodate Stevie or Suarez - they were clearly too good to leave out but didn't fit his original vision.


He will stand or fall by his team this season; it's clear we have been buying with the team learning to play alongside one another and mature this season and the next. Lallana and Markovic have had enough of a grounding to produce the goods this season.

As we saw with Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling, this type of play is additive - once ytou reach a critical mass of players who can interchange and play the ball spaces open up in defences as the oppo have to concentrate on double marking one or two players letting us get on the front foot.

All right, enough back patting, let's get back to the neck wringing!

On topic, (and yes, good topic, interesting posts!) I think I'll reserve judgement on both owners and manager till the end of the season. A while ago there was a topic titled FSG's biggest summer, which I think is true. If they now go out and buy quality over quantity, we could be well set up for next season. However, it's an even bigger summer for Rodgers. If he gets his targets, as he appears to be doing, it really is all on him next season. FSG cannot be used as a shield for Rodgers to hide behind.

I think we bought squad quality and future quality last summer, and it's unfortunate that some seasons were disrupted by injury and that a couple of players really haven't settled yet.
Opinion is divided as to the right way of doing things i.e. build the squad first and add quality later, or add quality first then build the squad.
I've said many times that I think this window would be when we add the quality, and the signs so far are good.
Milner on a free is a very good signing, and adds experience.
Ings is a player who could be great or could fall short, but I can't deny his energy and commitment, plus he has goals in him as well.
Bogdan is a bit "meh" but is surely better than Jones.
Gomez is probably one for the future, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him play in some cup games.
Firmino looks class.

I think we need a couple more quality players, and at some point in the not too distant future, I think Mignolet needs replacing as in my eyes, he's a number 2 at a club like ours, and not automatic first choice.

Sorry to butt in here, but I just want to say that I've had some very interesting conversations with HB, both in threads and via PM.
We disagree on a lot of things, but I respect his points and he reciprocates, and I think the reason for this is because I was one who didn't abuse and denigrate him when he first joined.
Like many (including me) he got a lot of abuse when he first started posting, and (also like me) he gave those people pretty short shrift, which has led many to think he is just plain arsey and unable to get along.
I've found him to be an intelligent, respectful and interesting poster, and the reason why is simple: it's because I didn't abuse him as soon as he arrived just because he didn't agree with me or follow the consensus.

FWIW I enjoy your posts as well, and find them to be well thought out and interesting.

Again, sorry for butting in there.

Agree.

Hollywood and I had a few 'debates' when he first joined and didn't agree on issues but I always found his posts to be focused and he raises more than a few interesting debates.

I think the plan for more aggressive pressing and work rate up front is obvious given our signings. I think FSG and BR have sought to replicate the game we played when Suarez was here and .... problem is Suarez is a one off.

Our defending when we are not pressing needs attention. We defend very badly. I am worried if teams sit deep, give us the ball and exploit our weaknesses. We need to address our defensive issues, not just default to clichés like "they can't win if they don't have the ball" because they have and they will. Skertl, Sakho and Lovren really? Moreno ? these are not super smart defenders. A Sami Hyppia or a Carragher would go a long way to helping this team. I hope Lucas stays uninjured. I am not being negative, the season hasn't started. I'll start the negativity then. We need BALANCE.

Let's swerve this F***ing arse kissing because it's actually sickening and get back to the point(s) in hand; (time for a dissection of post)

Let’s get on thing straight – we have a mountain to climb.

To win the League?

Because no we don't. Last year, despite us being so F***ing sh*t by all accounts, we F***ing tore apart every team who finished above us. We might not of got the results to prove it, which ultimately is what matters, but we're not as far away as some make out. Two all with Arsenal at Anfield, they had two shots all game didn't they? We got beat 3-0 at Old Trafford and their keeper got Man of the Match - that's how F***ing much we twatted them. We fu**ed City over, deserved to beat Chelsea in three of the four games we played them last season, battered Spurs as we usually do.

Get a goalscorer who stays fit, that mountain suddenly becomes a molehill.

We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league.

Hang on lad, who are you talking about here? When did we buy Shearer? When did we buy Roy Keane? When did we buy Sol Campbell? When did we buy Peter Schmeichel? When did we buy Henry? When did we buy Zidane? When did we buy Frank De Boer? When did we buy Buffon? When the F**k did we ever go out and buy the "best". These are all players who moved clubs since we last won the League, therefore all available. And we were never in for any of them seriously, if at all.

We've never went out and bought the "best" but instead turned to decent players and transformed them into the "best". Oh we spent a bomb on Dean Saunders, Mark F***ing Kennedy and Stan Collymore. They weren't the best. F**k they weren't even the best available. So who is this best available that we've bought?

And that was when there were only United to beat.

So the other 19 teams don't count? And we're simply removing Kenny's excellent Blackburn side in 95, Arsenal's double winning sides of 98 and 02 as well as their invincible side of 04, Chelsea's great sides of 05 and 06, City's money side of the last five years from the history are we? It's only been United we've had to beat over the last two and a half decades? F**k off lad.

Right now, there are four clubs in the league who regularly play at a higher level than us and have more money to spend on players.

Your point being what?

I'm guessing this higher level is the Champions League and having money to spend is irrelevant if you spend it on sh*t as we proved last year, with Champions League football behind us. The year before, we should of won the League. So who really gives a toss if they've played in the European Cup for the past 20 years or got a bottomless pit to waste. It means nothing.

Added to that, to all intents and purposes, we last won the league when Everton did.

Come again?

We won the League in 90, Everton's last in 87. So clubs winning the League in that three year period is the same time but you don't think we had to contend with Blackburn or Arsenal in the 90s when they both won the League in a three year period (95-98) just United.

If we try to beat teams with the fourth and fifth choice picks we will never win the league again

Well which one is it lad? Is it the fourth and fifth picks or the best available? The entire F***ing paragraph is a contradiction of itself.

unless we find the next Shankly or Clough, by definition, once-in-a-lifetime managers.

You're putting Clough's name alongside Shankly's. That cu*ts name should not be on this forum in any F***ing praising manner after the sh*te he's said. He is not a once-in-a-lifetime manager. He's a piece of F***ing sh*t. So F***ing grand he was, he got his F***ing club relegated.

There is only one way we can achieve success – that is to buy young, play flexible attacking football and have the team grow together.

Like we did in the 90s under Roy Evans? And we still didn't win the League.

Let's take a look at a year United did win the League, after all they were all we had to beat back then weren't they? Take 95/96, our top five appearances were David James aged 26 by the start of the next season, Robbie Fowler aged 21, Steve McManaman aged 24, John Barnes aged 33 and Rob Jones aged 25. (combined age 129)

Compare to the top five of 13/14;

24 year old Jordan Henderson, 26 Simon Mignolet, 34 years young for Steven Gerrard, 30 years for Martin Skrtel, Raheem Sterling aged 19. (combined age of 133 years)

If we do not win the league with Brendan it will be a manager LIKE Brendan.

Gleaming white teeth, nice car, messed around with a few birds and hated by some of his own fans?

That is the strategy that the owners have put into place – and with it we banged in a hundred goals and came a hair’s breadth from winning the league.

And with it also finished 7th and 6th.

Going back to the old way , which failed for twenty years would signal the death of this club as a “big” team.

But you want us to basically do what we did under Roy Evans.

Actually, you're advocating us doing what did under Shankly. Look at the combined age of his top five appearance makers back in 64;

A 22 year old Ian Callaghan, a 27 year old Gordon Milne, a 21 year old Peter Thompson, a 26 year old Roger Hunt and Tommy Lawrence aged 24. (combined age of 120). You don't want to go back to the old days yet you want us to buy young and let a team grow just like we did in the old F***ing days.

The biggest threat to the club right now are the section of “fans” who live in a sentimental bubble of make-believe and who feel entitled to success without having a scooby about the discipline needed to achieve it.

So fans who want us to go against what we did in the old days and do things new and innovative like buy young players and let them grow (like the old days) are not the problem?

The problem is with those of us stuck in the 70s.

We have to resist the collected moanings of these hard-of-understanding malcontents otherwise they will drag us all down with them.

Resist away lad because you've just had your argument tore apart.

Let's swerve this f**king arse kissing because it's actually sickening and get back to the point(s) in hand; (time for a dissection of post)

To win the League?

Because no we don't. Last year, despite us being so f**king sh*t by all accounts, we f**king tore apart every team who finished above us. We might not of got the results to prove it, which ultimately is what matters, but we're not as far away as some make out. Two all with Arsenal at Anfield, they had two shots all game didn't they? We got beat 3-0 at Old Trafford and their keeper got Man of the Match - that's how f**king much we twatted them. We fu**ed City over, deserved to beat Chelsea in three of the four games we played them last season, battered Spurs as we usually do.

Get a goalscorer who stays fit, that mountain suddenly becomes a molehill.

Hang on lad, who are you talking about here? When did we buy Shearer? When did we buy Roy Keane? When did we buy Sol Campbell? When did we buy Peter Schmeichel? When did we buy Henry? When did we buy Zidane? When did we buy Frank De Boer? When did we buy Buffon? When the f**k did we ever go out and buy the "best". These are all players who moved clubs since we last won the League, therefore all available. And we were never in for any of them seriously, if at all.

We've never went out and bought the "best" but instead turned to decent players and transformed them into the "best". Oh we spent a bomb on Dean Saunders, Mark f**king Kennedy and Stan Collymore. They weren't the best. F**k they weren't even the best available. So who is this best available that we've bought?

So the other 19 teams don't count? And we're simply removing Kenny's excellent Blackburn side in 95, Arsenal's double winning sides of 98 and 02 as well as their invincible side of 04, Chelsea's great sides of 05 and 06, City's money side of the last five years from the history are we? It's only been United we've had to beat over the last two and a half decades? F**k off lad.

Your point being what?

I'm guessing this higher level is the Champions League and having money to spend is irrelevant if you spend it on sh*t as we proved last year, with Champions League football behind us. The year before, we should of won the League. So who really gives a toss if they've played in the European Cup for the past 20 years or got a bottomless pit to waste. It means nothing.

Come again?

We won the League in 90, Everton's last in 87. So clubs winning the League in that three year period is the same time but you don't think we had to contend with Blackburn or Arsenal in the 90s when they both won the League in a three year period (95-98) just United.

Well which one is it lad? Is it the fourth and fifth picks or the best available? The entire f**king paragraph is a contradiction of itself.

You're putting Clough's name alongside Shankly's. That cu*ts name should not be on this forum in any f**king praising manner after the sh*te he's said. He is not a once-in-a-lifetime manager. He's a piece of f**king sh*t. So f**king grand he was, he got his f**king club relegated.

Like we did in the 90s under Roy Evans? And we still didn't win the League.

Let's take a look at a year United did win the League, after all they were all we had to beat back then weren't they? Take 95/96, our top five appearances were David James aged 26 by the start of the next season, Robbie Fowler aged 21, Steve McManaman aged 24, John Barnes aged 33 and Rob Jones aged 25. (combined age 129)

Compare to the top five of 13/14;

24 year old Jordan Henderson, 26 Simon Mignolet, 34 years young for Steven Gerrard, 30 years for Martin Skrtel, Raheem Sterling aged 19. (combined age of 133 years)

Gleaming white teeth, nice car, messed around with a few birds and hated by some of his own fans?



And with it also finished 7th and 6th.

But you want us to basically do what we did under Roy Evans.

Actually, you're advocating us doing what did under Shankly. Look at the combined age of his top five appearance makers back in 64;

A 22 year old Ian Callaghan, a 27 year old Gordon Milne, a 21 year old Peter Thompson, a 26 year old Roger Hunt and Tommy Lawrence aged 24. (combined age of 120). You don't want to go back to the old days yet you want us to buy young and let a team grow just like we did in the old f**king days.

So fans who want us to go against what we did in the old days and do things new and innovative like buy young players and let them grow (like the old days) are not the problem?

The problem is with those of us stuck in the 70s.

Resist away lad because you've just had your argument tore apart.

On my iPad otherwise I would have separated out your points.

You haven't torn anything apart - all you have is given your opinion. Let's have a look at the evidence:

1. Your opinion: we have a molehill to climb because we put in good performances against the teams above us.
Reality: the league isn't about direct performances against your rivals, it's about having the depth to consistently achieve results against every team in the league over the course of a season
Evidence: 25 years since we won the  league clearly ain't a molehill.


2. Your opinion: we have never tried to buy "the best".
Reality: You're confusing what we tried to do with the results of our strategy. Shearer, Keane and the rest of them never played for the same team - they only subsequently proved their worth. In any case, Souness actually tried to bring Keane here but he wanted to go to United. You laugh at the likes of Collymore but the fact was, when we bought him, he was one of the best strikers in the league. We had the resources to bring in various stars - instead we chose to buy the likes of Scales, Babb, Diouf, Diao, Heskey, Morientes, Litmaanen, Kirkland and so on. The point is, even when we had the resources and pull to attract "the best" we failed with our player selection. Now the job is ten times harder because even if we identify the next Shearer there are four clubs ahead of us in the queue.
Evidence: For the majority of the period we are talking about, Liverpool were one of the two biggest clubs in the league and had our pick of the players we wanted.


3. Your opinion: there was more than just United to beat
Reality: you have misunderstood the point I was making so (on your terms) you were partly correct. Yes there were 19 other teams in the league but, for a long period, the only consistent threat for the league title was United. Blackburn fell away after one season trying to defend it. Arsenal went into a hiatus. Other teams have risen during that period but you are making my point for me - at one time there was only us, United and a wildcard team (Leeds/Blackburn etc) competing for the title. Now it's United, Chelsea, Arsenal, City and two or three wild cards (us/Spurs). The point is it was harder for us to win it 2010-2015 than 2000-2010 and that was harder than 1990-2000 but we didn't even win it in that period.
Evidence: list of league champions / top 4 finishes from 1990-present

4. Your opinion: "it means nothing" that our rivals play in Champions League
Reality: don't even know where to start with this one. CL income now means upto 60 million extra a year to pay players. It means attracting those who want to play on global TV against the other top teams in Europe. It means getting used to midweek fixtures at the same time as competing in the league. Just a silly comment really.
Evidence: Lacazette would be a perfect fit for us, however, as Lyon's chairman says: "Liverpool have never called, and as they are not playing in the Champions League, they don't have the money, nor would they be able to interest him."

5. Your opinion: my paragraph is a contradiction of itself
Reality: there is no contradiction there - re-read what I have written. Blackburn or not, there was a long period in this league when there was basically us or United at the start of the season who could be said to be realistically challenging for the best players and be challenging for the title. As time has gone on, it has become harder since more teams are now able to challenge due to the money injected into the game. At one point we only had (for example) United to beat to sign Roy Keane. Nowadays we have Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Spurs as well - that's not to mention PSG, Real, Monaco and the rest of them. Point is - even when there were fewer teams competing for the players we wanted we failed to win the league. Now, if we go for the same strategy as everyone else we will continue to fail because we are in a position where we are going to get the 4th and 5th choice picks.
Evidence: average wage bill of the teams finishing above us since 1990


6. Your opinion: Clough was not a once-in-a-lifetime manager
Reality: this is the entire point of the thread - yes he was a c**t but you are confusing your sentimental dislike of him with his ability as a manager. He took over at Derby in the second division, got them promoted and won the first division title for the first time in their history. They also reached the semi finals of the European Cup. Derby. Not one of Europe's sleeping giants - Derby.

After Leeds, he went to second division Nottingham Forest and got them promoted. Then they won the title for the first time in THEIR history. Again - Nottingham. Doing that alone made him one of only four managers to win the top division title with two different clubs. Unlike Kenny he didn't inherit a winning side built by Paisley/Fagan or have a Jack Warner to blow everyone out of the water financially.

After that, he won back-to-back European Cups with Nottingham Forest. Can you conceive of a championship side emulating that success nowadays? And I don't mean Leeds - I mean a side that has done F**k all in their history.
Evidence: name another manager in your lifetime who has achieved the same level of success from such a low starting point.

6. Your opinion: no point buying young players because Roy Evans tried and failed with this method
Reality: it's a logical non-sequitur. If we cant develop the best players, we can't afford the best players and we can't attract the best players we may as well give up
Evidence: plenty of examples of teams putting a long term plan into place to maximise value - Barcelona, Ajax, Lyon.


8. Your opinion: I want us to go back to what Shnkly did
Reality: yes, in a way, I do. As I said in my earlier post we need a Shankly to rebuild. When talked about returning to "the old ways" I was referring to the period since we last won the league


9. Your opinion: we shouldn't continue with the strategy because we have come 7th, 2nd and 6th
Reality: left this one till last because it is the most important.
On one hand we "came 7th and 6th" but earlier on you were arguing the gap was a "molehill" because we thrashed the teams above us. So which one is it? as you said your argument is a mass of contradictions
Evidence: you will not be able to name a strategy which will realistically take us from our current position to winning the title without coming 2nd or below on the way. But feel free to prove me wrong - over to you......

On my iPad otherwise I would have separated out your points.

You haven't torn anything apart - all you have is given your opinion. Let's have a look at the evidence:

1. Your opinion: we have a molehill to climb because we put in good performances against the teams above us.
Reality: the league isn't about direct performances against your rivals, it's about having the depth to consistently achieve results against every team in the league over the course of a season
Evidence: 25 years since we won the  league clearly ain't a molehill.


2. Your opinion: we have never tried to buy "the best".
Reality: You're confusing what we tried to do with the results of our strategy. Shearer, Keane and the rest of them never played for the same team - they only subsequently proved their worth. In any case, Souness actually tried to bring Keane here but he wanted to go to United. You laugh at the likes of Collymore but the fact was, when we bought him, he was one of the best strikers in the league. We had the resources to bring in various stars - instead we chose to buy the likes of Scales, Babb, Diouf, Diao, Heskey, Morientes, Litmaanen, Kirkland and so on. The point is, even when we had the resources and pull to attract "the best" we failed with our player selection. Now the job is ten times harder because even if we identify the next Shearer there are four clubs ahead of us in the queue.
Evidence: For the majority of the period we are talking about, Liverpool were one of the two biggest clubs in the league and had our pick of the players we wanted.


3. Your opinion: there was more than just United to beat
Reality: you have misunderstood the point I was making so (on your terms) you were partly correct. Yes there were 19 other teams in the league but, for a long period, the only consistent threat for the league title was United. Blackburn fell away after one season trying to defend it. Arsenal went into a hiatus. Other teams have risen during that period but you are making my point for me - at one time there was only us, United and a wildcard team (Leeds/Blackburn etc) competing for the title. Now it's United, Chelsea, Arsenal, City and two or three wild cards (us/Spurs). The point is it was harder for us to win it 2010-2015 than 2000-2010 and that was harder than 1990-2000 but we didn't even win it in that period.
Evidence: list of league champions / top 4 finishes from 1990-present

4. Your opinion: "it means nothing" that our rivals play in Champions League
Reality: don't even know where to start with this one. CL income now means upto 60 million extra a year to pay players. It means attracting those who want to play on global TV against the other top teams in Europe. It means getting used to midweek fixtures at the same time as competing in the league. Just a silly comment really.
Evidence: Lacazette would be a perfect fit for us, however, as Lyon's chairman says: "Liverpool have never called, and as they are not playing in the Champions League, they don't have the money, nor would they be able to interest him."

5. Your opinion: my paragraph is a contradiction of itself
Reality: there is no contradiction there - re-read what I have written. Blackburn or not, there was a long period in this league when there was basically us or United at the start of the season who could be said to be realistically challenging for the best players and be challenging for the title. As time has gone on, it has become harder since more teams are now able to challenge due to the money injected into the game. At one point we only had (for example) United to beat to sign Roy Keane. Nowadays we have Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Spurs as well - that's not to mention PSG, Real, Monaco and the rest of them. Point is - even when there were fewer teams competing for the players we wanted we failed to win the league. Now, if we go for the same strategy as everyone else we will continue to fail because we are in a position where we are going to get the 4th and 5th choice picks.
Evidence: average wage bill of the teams finishing above us since 1990


6. Your opinion: Clough was not a once-in-a-lifetime manager
Reality: this is the entire point of the thread - yes he was a c**t but you are confusing your sentimental dislike of him with his ability as a manager. He took over at Derby in the second division, got them promoted and won the first division title for the first time in their history. They also reached the semi finals of the European Cup. Derby. Not one of Europe's sleeping giants - Derby.

After Leeds, he went to second division Nottingham Forest and got them promoted. Then they won the title for the first time in THEIR history. Again - Nottingham. Doing that alone made him one of only four managers to win the top division title with two different clubs. Unlike Kenny he didn't inherit a winning side built by Paisley/Fagan or have a Jack Warner to blow everyone out of the water financially.

After that, he won back-to-back European Cups with Nottingham Forest. Can you conceive of a championship side emulating that success nowadays? And I don't mean Leeds - I mean a side that has done F**k all in their history.
Evidence: name another manager in your lifetime who has achieved the same level of success from such a low starting point.

6. Your opinion: no point buying young players because Roy Evans tried and failed with this method
Reality: it's a logical non-sequitur. If we cant develop the best players, we can't afford the best players and we can't attract the best players we may as well give up
Evidence: plenty of examples of teams putting a long term plan into place to maximise value - Barcelona, Ajax, Lyon.


8. Your opinion: I want us to go back to what Shnkly did
Reality: yes, in a way, I do. As I said in my earlier post we need a Shankly to rebuild. When talked about returning to "the old ways" I was referring to the period since we last won the league


9. Your opinion: we shouldn't continue with the strategy because we have come 7th, 2nd and 6th
Reality: left this one till last because it is the most important.
On one hand we "came 7th and 6th" but earlier on you were arguing the gap was a "molehill" because we thrashed the teams above us. So which one is it? as you said your argument is a mass of contradictions
Evidence: you will not be able to name a strategy which will realistically take us from our current position to winning the title without coming 2nd or below on the way. But feel free to prove me wrong - over to you......

So his "opinion" is wrong but yours is right? 

So his "opinion" is wrong but yours is right?

- leaving aside the deeper truths about the subjective nature of reality, the whole point of the forum is for us to argue our opinions.

He said that he had torn my argument apart but, as I pointed out, his replies of eh? Come agains? And disagreement was his opinion.

Thereby when I replied to him - with MY opinion - I took care to include the evidence on which it's based. Perhaps you noticed ? I took care to highlight the word "evidence" in bold each reply.

Nevertheless, I was grateful for his considered response which required some thought and must have taken a while to type out - so much better than reading snide one-liners which are barely worth replying to, don't you think?

Thereby when I replied to him - with MY opinion - I took care to include the evidence on which it's based. Perhaps you noticed ? I took care to highlight the word "evidence" in bold each reply.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you wrote, you did put across your opinion as being the truth - as I noticed you chose to highlight the word "Reality" each time.

- leaving aside the deeper truths about the subjective nature of reality, 

Reality ?

Thats a place you haven't lived in for some time.

Close proximity to a sewer outlet perhaps.

Ah what a surprise - another boring post that has nothing to do with the thread title. 

Thanks for your contribution Euro. Mods have got your number - I doubt you wil be around for much longer 

You haven't torn anything apart - all you have is given your opinion. Let's have a look at the evidence:

Yes I did but let's play the little game.

1. Your opinion: we have a molehill to climb because we put in good performances against the teams above us.
Reality: the league isn't about direct performances against your rivals, it's about having the depth to consistently achieve results against every team in the league over the course of a season
Evidence: 25 years since we won the  league clearly ain't a molehill.

Wrong instantly and trying to interrupt what I said to suit you. It's a molehill if we have a regular goalscorer. That's why we went from 7th to 2nd within a season because we had a regular goalscorer. Somebody who scored 30 goals a season.

Our performances against those who finish above us, prove we're more than a match for any club in this League. And prove that if we can get it right at the top end of the pitch, we could easily be challenging again. In the 90s it was the other end of the pitch that had the problems. If we'd "bought the best available" and say gone for Nigel Martyn rather than David F***ing James, we may well of the League. We didn't though.

If we picked up results against those around us in 13/14, i.e. beat Chelsea, we win the League. If we get results against those around us last year, i.e. beat United like we deserved to, we get 4th. That's reality lad.

2. Your opinion: we have never tried to buy "the best".
Reality: You're confusing what we tried to do with the results of our strategy. Shearer, Keane and the rest of them never played for the same team - they only subsequently proved their worth. In any case, Souness actually tried to bring Keane here but he wanted to go to United. You laugh at the likes of Collymore but the fact was, when we bought him, he was one of the best strikers in the league. We had the resources to bring in various stars - instead we chose to buy the likes of Scales, Babb, Diouf, Diao, Heskey, Morientes, Litmaanen, Kirkland and so on. The point is, even when we had the resources and pull to attract "the best" we failed with our player selection. Now the job is ten times harder because even if we identify the next Shearer there are four clubs ahead of us in the queue.
Evidence: For the majority of the period we are talking about, Liverpool were one of the two biggest clubs in the league and had our pick of the players we wanted.

Well which one is it lad? Was it we bought the best available or we didn't bring in various stars? You're contradicting yourself again. Stop, it's embarrassing.

And we were never in for Keane seriously because he always going to United as a replacement for Robson, which he turned out to be.

3. Your opinion: there was more than just United to beat
Reality: you have misunderstood the point I was making so (on your terms) you were partly correct. Yes there were 19 other teams in the league but, for a long period, the only consistent threat for the league title was United. Blackburn fell away after one season trying to defend it. Arsenal went into a hiatus. Other teams have risen during that period but you are making my point for me - at one time there was only us, United and a wildcard team (Leeds/Blackburn etc) competing for the title. Now it's United, Chelsea, Arsenal, City and two or three wild cards (us/Spurs). The point is it was harder for us to win it 2010-2015 than 2000-2010 and that was harder than 1990-2000 but we didn't even win it in that period.
Evidence: list of league champions / top 4 finishes from 1990-present

Don't be F***ing daft lad. Every year, with the odd exception, it's a two horse race now by the start of April. Let's take a look at some "evidence" shall we from the last game in March for the last five seasons?

14/15 - 1st Chelsea (67 points) 2nd City (61 points) 3rd (Arsenal 60 points). More or less all over, but we'll say it was still a two horse race at this point.
13/14 - 1st Liverpool (71 points) 2nd Chelsea (69 points) 3rd City (67 points). Three horse race, due to us being the "wildcard"
12/13 - 1st United (77 points) 2nd City (62 points) 3rd Spurs (57 points). All over by the end of March.
11/12 - 1st City (70 points) 2nd United (70 points) 3rd Arsenal (58 points). Two horse race.
10/11 - 1st United (63 points) 2nd Arsenal 58 (points) 3rd City (53 points). Two horse race.

So these four teams competing for the title, really aren't are they? It's a two horse race every year with the odd exception. Come the business end of the year, there's just two teams going for it. Chelsea twice out of the last five, City twice at a push three if you include last season, United three, Arsenal as many times as us. That's "evidence".

Now, just to compare that to 95-99

98/99 - 1st United (63 points) 2nd Arsenal (59 points) 3rd Chelsea (59 point). Two horse race.
97/98 - 1st United (63 points) 2nd Arsenal (60 points) 3rd Liverpool (54 points). Two horse race.
96/97 - 1st United (63 points) 2nd Liverpool 60 points) 3rd Arsenal (57 points). Three horse race, with us as the "wildcard"
95/96 - 1st United (67 points) 2nd Newcastle (64 points) 3rd Liverpool (59 points). Two horse race.
94/95 - 1st Blackburn (76 points) 2nd United (73 points) 3rd Newcastle (63 points). Two horse race.

See, more evidence that back then it was still just a two horse race as well. Back then, it proves there was one common trend, United were always in the running. That doesn't prove though they were the only side we had to contend with because they weren't. It also disproves your theory that there's four teams always going for the title in today's football. There isn't. Come crunch time, there's two teams going for the title unless we pop up and spoil the party.

4. Your opinion: "it means nothing" that our rivals play in Champions League
Reality: don't even know where to start with this one. CL income now means upto 60 million extra a year to pay players. It means attracting those who want to play on global TV against the other top teams in Europe. It means getting used to midweek fixtures at the same time as competing in the league. Just a silly comment really.
Evidence: Lacazette would be a perfect fit for us, however, as Lyon's chairman says: "Liverpool have never called, and as they are not playing in the Champions League, they don't have the money, nor would they be able to interest him."

We bought Luis Suarez, Danny Sturridge and Phil Coutinho all without Champions League football. With it, we bought Rickie Lambert, Mario Balotelli and Lazar Markovic. I know which three I'd rather have. Our two most expensive signings both arrived when we were out of Europe's elite club competition - Carroll and Firminio.

Oh and we're all desperate to go up against those top teams like Ludogorets, APOEL and Malmo aren't we? Desperate to play against the likes of Gervinho, Nani and Phillip F***ing Degen. They're queuing round the block for those names to come to Anfield.

The European Cup is great. But as Arsenal have proved for the past decade, what good has it done them? A couple of FA Cups. Great.

As for some Lyon chairman, who gives a toss? I don't know the fella you're on about from Adam but I've seen his name banded around here for a while so I'll guess he's decent. And we can't get him because we're not in the Champions League? Well he's not that F***ing good for Liverpool then. You sign for this club because it's the biggest honour in world football not because we're one of thirty two clubs in the European Cup. If that's what he wants, Celtic's up north they can offer him practically guaranteed Champions League football.

5. Your opinion: my paragraph is a contradiction of itself
Reality: there is no contradiction there - re-read what I have written. Blackburn or not, there was a long period in this league when there was basically us or United at the start of the season who could be said to be realistically challenging for the best players and be challenging for the title. As time has gone on, it has become harder since more teams are now able to challenge due to the money injected into the game. At one point we only had (for example) United to beat to sign Roy Keane. Nowadays we have Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Spurs as well - that's not to mention PSG, Real, Monaco and the rest of them. Point is - even when there were fewer teams competing for the players we wanted we failed to win the league. Now, if we go for the same strategy as everyone else we will continue to fail because we are in a position where we are going to get the 4th and 5th choice picks.
Evidence: average wage bill of the teams finishing above us since 1990

No contradiction in;

We have tried buying the best available players for decades and we have failed to win the league.

to this;

with the fourth and fifth choice picks

Which one is it? The best around or fourth and fifth picks?

6. Your opinion: Clough was not a once-in-a-lifetime manager
Reality: this is the entire point of the thread - yes he was a c**t but you are confusing your sentimental dislike of him with his ability as a manager. He took over at Derby in the second division, got them promoted and won the first division title for the first time in their history. They also reached the semi finals of the European Cup. Derby. Not one of Europe's sleeping giants - Derby.

After Leeds, he went to second division Nottingham Forest and got them promoted. Then they won the title for the first time in THEIR history. Again - Nottingham. Doing that alone made him one of only four managers to win the top division title with two different clubs. Unlike Kenny he didn't inherit a winning side built by Paisley/Fagan or have a Jack Warner to blow everyone out of the water financially.

After that, he won back-to-back European Cups with Nottingham Forest. Can you conceive of a championship side emulating that success nowadays? And I don't mean Leeds - I mean a side that has done F**k all in their history.
Evidence: name another manager in your lifetime who has achieved the same level of success from such a low starting point.

This is where you're about as wrong as you can be. In this topic you've discredited Bob Paisley and Kenny Dalglish. You've basically insinuated that neither of those great managers, genuinely great not half decent like Clough, didn't build great sides. They did. Dalglish built, arguably, Liverpool's greatest ever side. But you'll probably deny that you've said anything of the sort so I won't go into any further.

As for Clough, yes he won the League with Derby and Forest. Well done. Yes he won two European Cups with Forest as well. Good on him. He also took backhanders throughout his career. He also fu**ed off when he got his side relegated. He also spent 18 F***ing years at Forest and won just a single League title. One. One in eighteen F***ing years. That isn't a great manager.

Clough's success weren't in my lifetime but I'll name somebody who could of done it. Look a bit closer to home, look at Liverpool's longest serving manager, look at Tom Watson. He took the first newly elected League club, Sunderland, to three League titles in four years. The year he failed, he finished runners up. He then took Liverpool from the old Second division to the top flight. And he then won Liverpool our first League title in our history. And rather than running away like a shitbag like Clough when we went down, he stayed and brought us back to the top flight and in his first year back into the top flight, he won the League again.

Don't mention it...any time.

8. Your opinion: I want us to go back to what Shnkly did
Reality: yes, in a way, I do. As I said in my earlier post we need a Shankly to rebuild. When talked about returning to "the old ways" I was referring to the period since we last won the league

But nothing really changed in how we went about our business from Shankly right through to Evans. We still bought young players and developed them into world class players. You want us to not do what we've done for the past two and a half decades, by turning to young players, playing flexible football and letting them grow - just like we did in the past two and a half decades since we last won the League - hence the Roy Evans mention.

And as I proved, with actual evidence, our most involved players under Evans were younger than those under Rodgers.

9. Your opinion: we shouldn't continue with the strategy because we have come 7th, 2nd and 6th
Reality: left this one till last because it is the most important.
On one hand we "came 7th and 6th" but earlier on you were arguing the gap was a "molehill" because we thrashed the teams above us. So which one is it? as you said your argument is a mass of contradictions
Evidence: you will not be able to name a strategy which will realistically take us from our current position to winning the title without coming 2nd or below on the way. But feel free to prove me wrong - over to you......

Again you've misinterpreted things. If it was a career lad, you'd be top of the tree. It's a molehill if we've got a regular goalscorer on the pitch. But when your top goalscorer is a midfielder who isn't even a regular in the side and only has 9 goals, you're not going to finish that high up the table. If we've got a fella scoring 25-30 goals a season, we'd do a lot F***ing better. That's no contradiction to what I've said, unlike your post.

A strategy that takes us from 6th to the League without finishing 2nd or lower below first? Here's a novel idea, outscore your opponents in every game. That do for you? Because you said you couldn't name one, I just have.

Now you can reply if you want but I can't be arsed picking through another post of yours on this debate. So feel free to respond, be as pedantic, condescending, arrogant, rude, obnoxious and as ill-informed as you wish to be. It'll make no odds to me on this debate.

Ah what a surprise - another boring post that has nothing to do with the thread title. 

Thanks for your contribution Euro. Mods have got your number - I doubt you wil be around for much longer 

I see Doris is back oh goody.

Now you can reply if you want but I can't be arsed picking through another post of yours on this debate. So feel free to respond, be as pedantic, condescending, arrogant, rude, obnoxious and as ill-informed as you wish to be. It'll make no odds to me on this debate.

Cheers - on my normal keyboard now so it shouldn't take long to deal with your points. I appreciate the effort you took in
typing it out but you would save yourself a lot of bother by just reading what I had written properly.

You appear to have just reiterated the same points. You still appear confused on a couple of items so just to clarify them (again):


1. If, if, if, if, if your uncle had wheels he'd be a bicycle. We were talking about winning the league being a mountain not coming 4th - don't shift the goalposts.

Well which one is it lad? Was it we bought the best available or we didn't bring in various stars? You're contradicting yourself again. Stop, it's embarrassing.

Which one is it? The best around or fourth and fifth picks?

2. When we were one of the "big two" there was relatively little competition for our signings so it was easier for us to pursue the policy of trying to sign "the best" players. Not that we had Keane and Shearer and Van Basten all in the same team of course - nobody did - the point is we were able to try bringing the best to the club. Despite that advantage we didn't manage to win the league. Now that there are four teams ahead of us - as well as many other teams abroad who have had big cash injections it is even harder to sign "the best" players so following the same strategy is even less likely to be successful.

3. You have missed the point about the "start of April". Yes, often the race narrows down to two two teams just before the end of the season - so what? The question is which contenders those two teams will be. In nearly all cases it's the teams that have spent the most money on their squads. You seem to think it's easy because all we need to do is "buy a goalscorer" but you ignore the fat that the five teams above us have even less to do in order to win the title. That's what I mean when I say you don't appreciate the size of the problem. Money is the chief determinant of success. That means if we have one rival who is much richer we will occasionally win - when we have four or five you can do the maths yourself.




4. Your point about CL football is just bizarre. If you don't understand that being in the competition attracts big money and ambitious players there's no hope for you. What has it done for Arsenal? Earnt them twenty million a season perhaps? Do you think Ozil and Sanchez would have gone to non-Champion's League clubs? F**k me.



5. "As for some Lyon chairman, who gives a toss? ..You sign for this club because it's the biggest honour in world football not because we're one of thirty two clubs in the European Cup."

And this is the point of the thread - it's only the biggest honour in world football in your head. This is a results business, do you think Paisley and Fagan would be claiming we were the biggest name in world football if we hadn't won the league for twenty-five years? Only someone settling for mediocrity would come out with bollocks like that. If we dominate the domestic and european league maybe we will have a right to say that but at the moment you just sound ridiculous. You might as well have Notts Forest fans saying the same thing.


6. I reiterate the point about Clough who I repeat you are mixing up your feelings as a man for against his worth as a manager (again, the point of the thread) - unlike Paisley and Kenny who inherited great teams and achieved phenomenal amounts, Clough built two great teams from nothing. As I said - Derby got to the semi finals of the European Cup and Forest won it back-to-back. I called him and Shanks once-in-a-lifetime managers and said, if you disagreed, to name another who had done the same starting from such a low base in your lifetime. You didn't. Case closed.


7. Yeh thanks for bringing up Evans - about our strategy of trying to sign "the best" players (whether or not we succeeded):

Evans claims Collymore’s ability was equal to that of Ronaldo, who, having been part of a Brazilian World Cup-winning squad, had finished as the top goalscorer in Holland during his first season at PSV Eindhoven after moving from Cruzeiro. “On the face of it, there wasn’t much of a difference [between the players],” Evans says. “They both had power, pace, skill and a great finishing ability. I’d considered Ronaldo, just as I’d considered a lot of players at home and abroad. But it boiled down to Stan being English and knowing the demands of the country and the Premier League.”


8. A strategy that takes us from 6th to the League without finishing 2nd or lower below first? Here's a novel idea, outscore your opponents in every game. That do for you? Because you said you couldn't name one, I just have.

No. What I said was a "realistic" strategy. I notice you omitted that bit. Outscore our opponents in every game? Can you name a single team that has ever done that in the history of our league? Nah, thought not.

I see Doris is back oh goody.

Hey it's Eurored's mum! Hi Mrs. Eurored 

If you've come to stop him making a tit of himself I'm afraid you're 64 years too late.

Evans claims Collymore’s ability was equal to that of Ronaldo, who, having been part of a Brazilian World Cup-winning squad, had finished as the top goalscorer in Holland during his first season at PSV Eindhoven after moving from Cruzeiro. “On the face of it, there wasn’t much of a difference [between the players],” Evans says. “They both had power, pace, skill and a great finishing ability. I’d considered Ronaldo, just as I’d considered a lot of players at home and abroad. But it boiled down to Stan being English and knowing the demands of the country and the Premier League.”

Sorry to cut your whole post, but please tell me this isn't true....one of my favourite ever players and we signed Stan Collymore over him...I refuse to believe it!

Sorry to cut your whole post, but please tell me this isn't true....one of my favourite ever players and we signed Stan Collymore over him...I refuse to believe it!

It is true. I read the same quote from Roy as well.

I think it was in Simon Hughes latest book 'Men in Whit Suits' if I recall.

It is true. I read the same quote from Roy as well.

I think it was in Simon Hughesd latest book 'Men in Whit Suits' if I recall.

Give me strength...I'm absolutely devastated at that, him and Zidane are my favourite players of all time outside of Liverpool players!

And that isn't even mentioning the fact he was one of the best ever

Give me strength...I'm absolutely devastated at that, him and Zidane are my favourite players of all time outside of Liverpool players!

And that isn't even mentioning the fact he was one of the best ever

I was shocked too!

Proves my point though - we aimed to get "the best" in those days the reason we didn't end up with them was because we weren't good enough at picking the right players.

Evans claims Collymore’s ability was equal to that of Ronaldo, who, having been part of a Brazilian World Cup-winning squad, had finished as the top goalscorer in Holland during his first season at PSV Eindhoven after moving from Cruzeiro. “On the face of it, there wasn’t much of a difference [between the players],” Evans says. “They both had power, pace, skill and a great finishing ability. I’d considered Ronaldo, just as I’d considered a lot of players at home and abroad. But it boiled down to Stan being English and knowing the demands of the country and the Premier League.”

Jesus F**k, we could have signed Ronaldo?! Original/real Ronaldo was the first footballer in my life that really WOWed me.

I was shocked too!

Proves my point though - we aimed to get "the best" in those days the reason we didn't end up with them was because we weren't good enough at picking the right players.

If ever there was a quote to disprove the 'Premier League proven' bullshit, then that's the one! Incredible footballer, imagine him and Robbie up front!

Anyway, back to the topic, it's good to see a different approach to the transfers this summer, whereby we have signed players and wrapped deals up, prior to allowing players to leave. I've always had the impression we have waited to sell under FSG before bringing new faces in. Not necessarily in a 'sell to buy' policy in order to fund incomings, but more in terms of it's been looked at as we need to make 'space' in the squad before adding players to it (perhaps due to the wages policy, who knows). Get a striker who is going to bang in 20-25+ goals and a midfielder who can actually stand up and be counted when we're playing those dirty teams like Stoke, but is also talented enough to mix it with the best midfielders in the league, then I would be feeling much more confident about next season.