A Time for Reflection

Im just curious when did we try buying the best players available I must have missed it .

i guess that hinges on your definition of "the best". When Souness, Evans and Houller were here there wasn't much domestic competition for our signings.

Now there are four clubs who play at a higher level than us, have won more recent trophies than us and who can pay the players more than we can.

Right now, all we really have to offer to top level players is our history. That's not enough.

Im just curious when did we try buying the best players available I must have missed it .

He means the time we signed Anelka instead of Diouf...  Oh wait.

What evidence would you like?

We spent two decades following the route most on here have been advocating and couldn't win the league despite being the biggest, and second richest, club in the country.

This is the third season with FSG's choice of manager and in that time we have played some of our best football ever and came with a whisker of winning the league.

If you want to go back how much longer would you like to give it before concluding we need to change? another five years? ten? twenty?

You might ne happy with mediocrity but I'm not.

I asked for evidence why this is the best strategy and all you've said is why previous strategies weren't the best...just because those strategies weren't the best, doesn't mean this one is surely?

I would genuinely like to see some evidence, because right now I feel pretty depressed with where this club is headed.

Your comment on mediocrity is ridiculous because no one on this forum is happy with it, just because we have different beliefs on how to get there doesn't mean you have to be a patronising nobhead.

I asked for evidence why this is the best strategy and all you've said is why previous strategies weren't the best...just because those strategies weren't the best, doesn't mean this one is surely?

I would genuinely like to see some evidence, because right now I feel pretty depressed with where this club is headed.

Your comment on mediocrity is ridiculous because no one on this forum is happy with it, just because we have different beliefs on how to get there doesn't mean you have to be a patronising nobhead.

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

What evidence would you like?

We spent two decades following the route most on here have been advocating and couldn't win the league despite being the biggest, and second richest, club in the country.

This is the third season with FSG's choice of manager and in that time we have played some of our best football ever and came with a whisker of winning the league.

If you want to go back how much longer would you like to give it before concluding we need to change? another five years? ten? twenty?

You might ne happy with mediocrity but I'm not.

What you going to actually do about it, other than pontificate on a football forum?

Exactly!! Talk sh*te like the rest of us basically.

We don't need a Paisley or Ancelotti we need a manager who can come into a team that hasn't won the league in decades and rebuild.

Try again. 

Well Rafa came within a whisker of winning the league buying some good first team players and average joe's for squad players, all the while United were spending, Arsenal were being Arsenal and Chelsea had an unlimited wod of cash, success breed's cash for football clubs, the more successful you are, the more money you earn via prize money, gate receipts, merchandise, tv money, sponsorships etc etc.

This buying young, can't compete with Chelsea, City, Arsenal, United etc, is bollocks, you get a manager in with a good pedigree and respect of the players throughout Europe etc and they will join providing you agree a deal with the other club and agree on wages.

The only people who are destroying the club is not 'Sentimental Fans' as you call them, its the one's playing Russian Roulette bringing in youngsters who may or may not become good enough.

We don't need a Paisley or Ancelotti we need a manager who can come into a team that hasn't won the league in decades and rebuild.

Try again. 

Hahahahaha! Don't know your history that well, how many teams did Paisley and Ancelotti build, quite a few actually only they did it by winning rather than being a yes man who has a penchant for talking out of his arse. You carry on lad it's only going to end in tears for you!

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

John Barnes runs it into the corner and wins corner and doesn't try to play it into the box, we win the league and double-double!

All ifs and maybe's, Gerrard wasn't the only reason we didn't win the league, that joke of a keeper and an inability to defend is also what cost us.

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

Dortmund also continually sold their best players and then struggled this season...sound familiar? They also compete in a far less competitive league, although I can't profess to know the ins and outs of German football.

As for Brendan having been in place three seasons and what more I want....well some silverware would be nice?! I've said this before on here, as great as that season was, we ultimately won nothing and that is all that matters. It's also been the anomaly of Brendan's three seasons, because the other two have been absolute sh*te.

I'm not saying this strategy can't work, I just think it makes it very difficult if everyone across the club, from transfer committee to the players aren't performing at their absolute maximum.

Well Rafa came within a whisker of winning the league buying some good first team players and average joe's for squad players, all the while United were spending, Arsenal were being Arsenal and Chelsea had an unlimited wod of cash, success breed's cash for football clubs, the more successful you are, the more money you earn via prize money, gate receipts, merchandise, tv money, sponsorships etc etc.

This buying young, can't compete with Chelsea, City, Arsenal, United etc, is bollocks, you get a manager in with a good pedigree and respect of the players throughout Europe etc and they will join providing you agree a deal with the other club and agree on wages.

The only people who are destroying the club is not 'Sentimental Fans' as you call them, its the one's playing Russian Roulette bringing in youngsters who may or may not become good enough.

What we are talking about is which system you use to achieve success.

Yes Rafa came close - that's because he is a genius - and now he has been given the job he rightly deserves at the Bernebeau. But attracting the best manager in the world was a diffrent proposition then to the one we have now.

We need a manager who will come in and not only be better than Van Gaal, Wenger, Pellegrini and Mourinho - but be better than all of those with the massive advantages they have of being established, having the cache of playing at the top level and a MASSIVE financial advantage. Oh, and he has to be able to do all that without Premiership experience since the only person alive who ticks the other boxes is Alex Ferguson.

Maybe there's someone out there with those qualities but, even if a manager like that is available to come to our club, he had better be right otherwise it's another five years in the doldrums.

For every Rafa there's five or more Ranieris.

Dortmund also continually sold their best players and then struggled this season...sound familiar? They also compete in a far less competitive league, although I can't profess to know the ins and outs of German football.

As for Brendan having been in place three seasons and what more I want....well some silverware would be nice?! I've said this before on here, as great as that season was, we ultimately won nothing and that is all that matters. It's also been the anomaly of Brendan's three seasons, because the other two have been absolute sh*te.

I'm not saying this strategy can't work, I just think it makes it very difficult if everyone across the club, from transfer committee to the players aren't performing at their absolute maximum.

I've made the same point about Dortmund numerous times - I think Klopp would be far from a guaranteed success although, in my view, he is unarguably a step-up from Brendan at the moment.

Where I disagree with you is that winning is the only possible evidence otherwise we could get in De Matteo. We were good enough to have won the title that season and, if it had happened, it would have been the biggest achievement in our club's history.

Is it really the case that Brendan is either the greatest manager ever or complete garbage? Unlikely.

For every Rafa there's five or more Ranieris.

For every Sterling you turn up, there's hundreds/thousands of Bebe's, clubs release them every year.

There is no formula that guarantee's success, the tried and tested method of getting a good manager in who knows his onions and the only restrictions being placed up on him are the wage budget and transfer budget without interference from the owners on their preference should be the way its done, Managers success and failures then hinge on their own abilities.

For every Sterling you turn up, there's hundreds/thousands of Bebe's, clubs release them every year.

There is no formula that guarantee's success, the tried and tested method of getting a good manager in who knows his onions and the only restrictions being placed up on him are the wage budget and transfer budget without interference from the owners on their preference should be the way its done, Managers success and failures then hinge on their own abilities.

Maybe we could do that in the era when clubs had managers for ten years or more but can we afford to do that now?

Say you DON'T pick the next Rafa how long do you stick with him?

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

I've made the same point about Dortmund numerous times - I think Klopp would be far from a guaranteed success although, in my view, he is unarguably a step-up from Brendan at the moment.

Where I disagree with you is that winning is the only possible evidence otherwise we could get in De Matteo. We were good enough to have won the title that season and, if it had happened, it would have been the biggest achievement in our club's history.

Is it really the case that Brendan is either the greatest manager ever or complete garbage? Unlikely.

I hadn't seen your comments on Klopp/Dortmund so fair enough and I agree, he would be a step up and I'm astonished FSG haven't gone for him whilst he's available because he seems to fit their profile perfectly.

I think winning/continuously challenging to win trophies is evidence for me, but 'apart' from that title challenge (which if we'd won it, we all know we wouldn't be having this debate, but we didn't and we are), what else have we looked like winning? We've meekly gone out of every single cup competition under Brendan and last season just completely collapsed after the game against the mancs, culminating in that humiliating defeat against Stoke and I believe Liverpool should be held to higher standards than that.

Regarding Brendan, no he isn't the greatest ever and nor is he complete garbage, there's always an inbetween. But is he the best man to implement the strategy FSG want? Because despite anyone's reservations about FSG, them and their ideas aren't going anywhere, so as I've seen srslfc post a number of times, we need to make sure every person in their position is the best fit for the job. Is Brendan the best man for the job? Well no, by your own admission Klopp is out there who would be a step up and the changes to his coaching staff would suggest FSG don't think Pascoe and Marsh are the best men for the job either.

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

Rafa won the champions league in his first season with a mixture of Houllier Signings and a few of his own, Kenny had us playing really good football following Roys sacking with a team that was largely inherited from Rafa, We were the form team for the second half of that season following Roys dismissal, if it had been sooner we may have even qualified for the champions league that season, that's just recent history.

So you tell me, how long do we stick with a policy that has seen our current manager deliver one good season with arguably the best in form player in the world for just about one full season that hasn't delivered any silverware at all, the same manager who forgot his sat nav as he got lost somewhere in Europe ?

i guess that hinges on your definition of "the best". When Souness, Evans and Houller were here there wasn't much domestic competition for our signings.

Now there are four clubs who play at a higher level than us, have won more recent trophies than us and who can pay the players more than we can.

Right now, all we really have to offer to top level players is our history. That's not enough.

I take it by thst load of bollox that you cant remember when we bought the best players either .

Dortmund have beaten bigger teams using a similar strategy. Gerrard keeps his footing (or at least doesn't look for the naive pass) - we win the league.

As I said we have embarked on a new strategy - the manager has been in place three seasons so what evidence do you want?

Stop being a f***in bellend, the old way was the best way hence the trophy cabinet being full of tin, and as for blaming Gerrard for losing the title is making you out to be a total KUNT,
This is the type of sh*te I expect to hear from Mancs or f***in plastic chavs and certainly not from a supposed LFC supporter, oh and just for the record, we lost the title by losing points to the likes of Villa and f***in Hull city, points that had we won would have been enough to win us the league, blaming Steven Gerrard arguably the best player ever to wear our shirt is frankly pathetic,

You are talking out of your f***in rectum !


YNWA

If we don't have some restriction on the kind pf players we buy we end up going buying players that suit Rafa then Roy then Kenny then Brendan - in other words a complete mess.

Another reason FSG's next biggest move is to appoint an experienced DoF.

He sets out the policy for the type of player we buy and the type of players we develop in the youth system and we hire the Head Coach and coaches to fit to that system.

Stop being a f***in bellend, the old way was the best way hence the trophy cabinet being full of tin, and as for blaming Gerrard for losing the title is making you out to be a total KUNT,
This is the type of sh*te I expect to hear from Mancs or f***in plastic chavs and certainly not from a supposed LFC supporter, oh and just for the record, we lost the title by losing points to the likes of Villa and f***in Hull city, points that had we won would have been enough to win us the league, blaming Steven Gerrard arguably the best player ever to wear our shirt is frankly pathetic,

You are talking out of your f***in rectum !

Oh grow up FFS.

This is precisely the point of the thread - because you have a sentimental attachment to Stevie being "our greatest ever player" you get bent out of shape at the mere suggestion he can't walk on water. Everyone makes mistakes in a career - he is as human as Shankly or Paisley or Kenny who all made mistakes. He's the same player who let Suarez in for both goals in the World Cup a few weeks after.

He fu**ed up - get over it. Stevie struggled to deal with it for at least the first half of the season - he certainly wasn't blaming the points lost at Hull - he was man enough to take responsibiilty so I'll tell you what I'll take his opinion over yours.

This is exactly what I mean when I say we have lost the winning mentality. If that was Keegan or Souness or Kenny or Suarez do you think they would have brushed it off and blamed the Hull result?

Sentimentality is killing this club.

Oh grow up FFS.

This is precisely the point of the thread - because you have a sentimental attachment to Stevie being "our greatest ever player" you get bent out of shape at the mere suggestion he can't walk on water. Everyone makes mistakes in a career - he is as human as Shankly or Paisley or Kenny who all made mistakes. He's the same player who let Suarez in for both goals in the World Cup a few weeks after.

He fu**ed up - get over it. Stevie struggled to deal with it for at least the first half of the season - he certainly wasn't blaming the points lost at Hull - he was man enough to take responsibiilty so I'll tell you what I'll take his opinion over yours.

While I don't agree Stevie was entirely at fault for us not winning the league I agree he took a while to get over the end of the previous season.

It's OK it's pretty clear you don't have much understanding of the game - let me help you.

"Old way" - pick anything after we won our last title to before FSG arrived.

Yes, the slip lost us the league - Gerrard blames himself for that but obviously you know better.

Your point about being "properly defensively coached" is just silly. Pick any team from the period I mentioned - at the end of the season you could say "we should have scored more goals/we should have let less in" - fact is what we did that season was almost unprecedented - I can't think of many times when a team has played the most exciting football in the English league and gone from seventh to being champions in one season - perhaps you can give us some examples otherwise though?

The academy model isn't that reliable though it has its place.

Think that deals with most of the nonsense. 

I wouldn't expect Gerrard to lay the blame anywhere else but at his own door, that's the kind of warrior he is.

We lost that League with the pathetic showing at Hull and the capitulation at Crystal Palace.

Our defence has been sh*te since Rodgers arrived and until that changes we will never win anything. At least that fuckwit Pascoe has gone and hopefully we can get somebody with a brain in to help Brendan out.

Now F**k off with yourself Hollywood Horseshit.

Rafa won the champions league in his first season with a mixture of Houllier Signings and a few of his own, Kenny had us playing really good football following Roys sacking with a team that was largely inherited from Rafa, We were the form team for the second half of that season following Roys dismissal, if it had been sooner we may have even qualified for the champions league that season, that's just recent history.

So you tell me, how long do we stick with a policy that has seen our current manager deliver one good season with arguably the best in form player in the world for just about one full season that hasn't delivered any silverware at all, the same manager who forgot his sat nav as he got lost somewhere in Europe ?

Blood, you are wasting your breath on this pr**k. He is a scabby Manc with no balls to back himself up.

Sadly there are a host of smaller clubs who have been trying to buy young and build success and they have had even less success than we have over the last 30 years or so. So why anyone would think this is the only way forward baffles me.

For me the problem hasn't just been about wage restrictions, or not investing enough, it is about buying the "right" players. We have wasted vast amounts and we need to start getting a better return on our investments.

Our buying seems to be haphazard with no direction or plan (or at least none that I can see). Taking players who just happen to be available rather than focusing on the ones we really want and need. 

Certainly I believe not only do we have to start going for the right players but also working harder to "sell the club" to those players. Top players want to go to clubs with ambition and IMO we no longer seem to be a club that looks like it will do anything and everything for success, but a club that's aim is top four rather than winning the league.